Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Al-kīmiyā']

To be honest, While I don't actively attack people for thinking it, I have a lot of trouble nowadays viewing the statement of "Ridley can't work" as being factually incorrect. It really is the case that every argument against him has been proven wrong.

"Ridley is too big":

Smash resizes characters all the time. It's the standard thing of fighting games in general. Even if a character has a certain OP trait in canon (just as an example) they are made to be able to be a playable fighter. Even Sakurai himself said that re-sizing Ridley is possible he just chose not to because.......

"A playable Ridley wouldn't be true to character":

I have the utmost respect for Sakurai and all the hard work he goes through to give us games like Smash Bros. and Kid Icarus Uprising. But I've got a bone to pick with him on this point. I know of a video that I'll be linking here of a Mod that has a playable Ridley that is much truer to his character in Metroid then his status as a boss hazard in Smash Wii U.

Spoiler: Perfectly Workable Ridley

This mod speaks to the attack patterns that Ridley does in boss fights. Quick, agile, ferocious, brutal. The boss hazard has him fly around honestly too often (he spends more time in Metroid games fighting on the ground than you might think), his attacks have too much of a slow delay to them, and he actively assists the fighter that deals enough damage to him. That last one especially is very out of character for Ridley.

Plus, Sakurai is limited in room to talk about excluding such a sensible character for this reason until he gives Ganondorf a proper moveset. I understand Irene's point of him not needing canonical moves to feel like Ganondorf but it still doesn't feel like you're playing as the Main Zelda Villain. Ganondorf is known a lot more for magic, swordplay, and use of a trident. A few physical attacks are fine, he even has a few canonically in Zelda games, but this Falcondorf is going too far.

This "not true to character" thing is practically the only thing keeping Ridley out at this point. And even if Sakurai is the director next time he has changed his mind on things that have kept characters out before. Like how he didn't include Villager in Brawl because he thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful. Once Sakurai realizes Ridley can work then bam. He's in.

"Ridley would be unbalanced"

I once again refer you to the video I linked earlier. Apart from just a tad bit too much range on his forward tilt everything else checks out just fine. Good balance of power, no striking opponents from too far away, and reasonable defenses.

"Ridley is already a boss on Pyrosphere"

Technically the Ridley that Samus fought in Other M at the Pyrosphere wasn't the real Ridley. It was a clone of him. So they could easily just take the boss and the trophy of said boss and re-name it to "Clone Ridley".

Apologies for the long post. It just takes me a little bit to get my two cents in about Ridley a lot of the time.

Was this video supposed to make Ridley look balanced?

 

[Cosmic77]

I have a few thoughts on this point.

Firstly, there are many cases where characters are added/return despite middling sales numbers and/or reception for their respective games, even if we restrict it to Japan. Mohter 3 reportedly did not do well in Japan as hoped as it reportedly filled bargain bins and had to have sales to clear its stock, Ike's games were the second and third lowest point in the franchise as far as Japanese sales are concerned, and Little Mac's reception in Japan seems to be more middling when compared to his western popularity (at least online). Yet, none of that affected their playability, Lucas still returned as DLC, Ike returned on the main roster (and even got his least popular design as far as Japan is concerned), and Little Mac was included despite being considered rather niche there. On the other side of the case, selling more then one franchise doesn't guarantee you a character. DK sells well in both regions, with DKC2 for instance selling over 2 million in Japan and Returns selling over half a million, yet it didn't get a new character at all in Smash 4. Sales and reception (even in Japan) are not an end-all-be-all case, Sakurai has shown he's willing to consider characters that are more lacking in either category.

Secondly, regardless of whether or not Sakurai dislikes the franchise (which he's never commented on the matter as far as I'm aware), I doubt he'd let his bias prevent him from giving the franchise a new character if he saw it fit to add. Remember that at Metroid's peak, he did add ZSS, two new stages, a new AT, two bosses, and a number of other neat things to Brawl, which if he didn't care for it he would've avoided giving it that much attention. He's not shown himself to hate the franchise in a way that prevents him from adding new things to it, and honestly, nothing says he wouldn't go the extra mile to add a new character if said character brought something to the table he liked.

Finally, in terms of other Metroid characters, we don't know what the future holds for them. Characters like Sylux don't have Ridley's issues, and popularity-wise they have room to grow, so there's nothing saying they can't be added in the future if they do get the popularity, prominence and other such factors that would leave them as an attractive choice. Saying all of them are doomed is being pretty pessimistic on the matter, Metroid isn't doomed to not get a new character just because Ridley's problems prevented himself from getting into the game. As for the big guy, that depends on a number of factors. Theoretically, we don't know how a new director would feel on the matter and we don't know what designs Ridley may get in the future, so if anything aligns in those cases, then Ridley could be made a playable character down the line. It could very well not happen of course, but there's no guarantee either way that he's doomed to a permanent deconfirmation stance as the future has a number of variables that can shift.
​

I don't think Sakurai truly dislikes Ridley like a large number of the Smash fanbase thinks he does. The fact that he went out of his way to give Ridley not one but TWO boss fights in Brawl and make him one of only three boss characters in Smash 4 shows us that he's at least trying to acknowledge Ridley in some major way instead of just avoiding him altogether like the plague. If Metroid were to have a resurgence of popularity like it did around the time of Brawl, I have no doubt that Sakurai would be completely on board with adding another Metroid character. Might not be Ridley, but I'm sure he'll definitely be one of the first characters he'd consider.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The winner was Mach Rider, which proved that he still does have an active following. Prince Sable was at least pretty close, though the same can't be said for Mini Kangaroo and the Devil.

Next up is one featuring a certain infamously hard Melee trophy and a fan favorite puzzle fairy. Your choices are Lip from Panel De Pon, Gumshoe's Mr Stevenson, Diskun, and Urban Champion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Only one more to go with FDC's Ayumi and Goku (NOT the one your thinking about, but the video game character).

 

[Deleted member]

Was this video supposed to make Ridley look balanced?

No offense. But you could have put a lot more thought into your reply than that.

And yes that video is supposed to (and does) make Ridley looke balanced. Forward Tilt range is admittedly a little weird but perfectly fixable (this is a mod after all. Actual game developers could do better) but everything else checks out fine. His size is reasonable being the size of Bowser with wings, No attacks apart from his forward tilt surpass Shulk or Corrin in Range (his forward Smash is the same range as theirs for example), he doesn't do unreasonably high amounts of damage (his ground pound is weaker than Bowser's for one thing), his recovery isn't even close to something like Brawl Meta Knight levels, being only slightly above someone like Charizard, and he doesn't have any cheap tricks like stun locking.

 

[Deleted member]

PM mods are irrelevant because the character sizes were changed between Brawl and Sm4sh

Spoiler

Either Ridley gets a workable design in Prime 4 or he's toast

\(°|°)/

 

[Deleted member]

PM mods are irrelevant because the character sizes were changed between Brawl and Sm4sh

Spoiler

Either Ridley gets a workable design in Prime 4 or he's toast

\(°|°)/

If anything those size changes argue more in Ridley's favor. The big characters got bigger compared to everyone else, not smaller. Ridley could still be the size of Bowser of wings. That would give him the appearance of a big character while still being a playable size.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've said this already, but Ridley's biggest roadblock is the length of his wings. Even if he's about as big as Bowser, the wings would basically make him an even bigger target, as they need to have hurtboxes implemented as well.

 

[Cosmic77]

PM mods are irrelevant because the character sizes were changed between Brawl and Sm4sh

Spoiler

Either Ridley gets a workable design in Prime 4 or he's toast

\(°|°)/

If anything those size changes argue more in Ridley's favor. The big characters got bigger compared to everyone else, not smaller. Ridley could still be the size of Bowser of wings. That would give him the appearance of a big character while still being a playable size.

Yeah, the changes in size from Brawl to SSB4 actually makes it easier for Ridley to blend in with the cast. Using the Brawl scale would've made Ridley look far more awkward.

The PM Ridley mod is far from perfect, but at least it gives us an idea of how a playable Ridley could work. I'm sure the development team could piece together a much better (and more balanced) Ridley moveset than anything Smash fans could come up with.

 

[Zem-raj]

PM mods are irrelevant because the character sizes were changed between Brawl and Sm4sh

Spoiler

Either Ridley gets a workable design in Prime 4 or he's toast

\(°|°)/

Or they could make a design specifically for Super Smash Bros.

 

[Deleted member]

Or they could make a design specifically for Super Smash Bros.

ehhhh I doubt it's that simple but what do I know about game development

\(°|°)/

 

[Chron]

Ridley doesn't seem to have any single huge problem that's keeping him from Smash, but he has so many smaller problems that I think it's definitely possible, but very unlikely.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Or they could make a design specifically for Super Smash Bros.

I don't know, something about that just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Deleted member]

At this point I'm wondering why I still have Ridley on my ideal roster. Also he fits so damn well as a boss

\(°|°)/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

ehhhh I doubt it's that simple but what do I know about game development

\(°|°)/

It can be that simple. But it also might never happen either. If Namco-Bandai is developing both games, they may do so, but they may not. It's a matter of more than just simply "we want to make him playable" too. There's all kinds of factors to consider, just like Sakurai had to do. He's highly aware of the character demand, but also knows that Ridley's huge size is very important to his characterization. While we do have outliers like Lucina who has an inaccurate personality, she also was a last-second clone and he has made characters a bit more angry-like to better fit into a fighting game(Mario is another example of this, as he's way more happy-go-lucky in the series. Paper Mario actually started to make him have a game face-on among the Mario series. I don't remember if Smash 64 even did this, but he definitely showed more anger since Melee at least).

 

[Cosmic77]

ehhhh I doubt it's that simple but what do I know about game development

\(°|°)/

I don't know, something about that just rubs me the wrong way.

It wouldn't be the first time Sakurai has redesigned a character specifically for Smash. Some changes are minor like Peach and Rosalina's dresses, while other changes like Pit's complete redesign are more major.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I can see why people might not want a change like that. Took me a while to get used to Rosalina's star pattern on her dress.

 

[Deleted member]

This is the part where I let someone else take it from here because my English is bad.

\(°|°)/

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth , You need to read this too.

Rosalina's moveset borrowed heavily from Galaxy's theme. Hardly any of her Smash moves are things she has done.

The point is flying WAY over your head. The point was that the Bowser Jr's mech is relevant to him. The abilities Rosalina has are relevant to her and the game she is known for being in. The reason Peach uses vegetables for example, is because that's the first game she was playable in. It's one of her most notable appearances. It's relevant to HER more than any other Mario character. When it comes to her abilities, Peach is known for being in Super Mario Bros 2. Rosalina is known for being in Super Mario Galaxy. The Clown Car and the space stuff are things that are relevant and unique to those characters.

You can't just go "Well, Rosalina never used a launch star so why can't Daisy have a Chain Chomp?!" Nothing about Mario Kart is unique to Toad. That's not what he's known for being in. Having Toad use Mario Kart items makes just as much sense as Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, or Wario using them. Toad's abilities should be something that are relevant to him! There are roles Toa

You're just pulling stuff out of your ass and trying to make it apply to Toad instead of coming up with something that sets Toad apart from the other Mario characters. Which is crucial for his inclusion in the first place.

To be honest, While I don't actively attack people for thinking it, I have a lot of trouble nowadays viewing the statement of "Ridley can't work" as being factually incorrect. It really is the case that every argument against him has been proven wrong.

"Ridley is too big":

Smash resizes characters all the time. It's the standard thing of fighting games in general. Even if a character has a certain OP trait in canon (just as an example) they are made to be able to be a playable fighter. Even Sakurai himself said that re-sizing Ridley is possible he just chose not to because.......

"A playable Ridley wouldn't be true to character":

I have the utmost respect for Sakurai and all the hard work he goes through to give us games like Smash Bros. and Kid Icarus Uprising. But I've got a bone to pick with him on this point. I know of a video that I'll be linking here of a Mod that has a playable Ridley that is much truer to his character in Metroid then his status as a boss hazard in Smash Wii U.

Spoiler: Perfectly Workable Ridley

This mod speaks to the attack patterns that Ridley does in boss fights. Quick, agile, ferocious, brutal. The boss hazard has him fly around honestly too often (he spends more time in Metroid games fighting on the ground than you might think), his attacks have too much of a slow delay to them, and he actively assists the fighter that deals enough damage to him. That last one especially is very out of character for Ridley.

Plus, Sakurai is limited in room to talk about excluding such a sensible character for this reason until he gives Ganondorf a proper moveset. I understand Irene's point of him not needing canonical moves to feel like Ganondorf but it still doesn't feel like you're playing as the Main Zelda Villain. Ganondorf is known a lot more for magic, swordplay, and use of a trident. A few physical attacks are fine, he even has a few canonically in Zelda games, but this Falcondorf is going too far.

This "not true to character" thing is practically the only thing keeping Ridley out at this point. And even if Sakurai is the director next time he has changed his mind on things that have kept characters out before. Like how he didn't include Villager in Brawl because he thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful. Once Sakurai realizes Ridley can work then bam. He's in.

"Ridley would be unbalanced"

I once again refer you to the video I linked earlier. Apart from just a tad bit too much range on his forward tilt everything else checks out just fine. Good balance of power, no striking opponents from too far away, and reasonable defenses.

"Ridley is already a boss on Pyrosphere"

Technically the Ridley that Samus fought in Other M at the Pyrosphere wasn't the real Ridley. It was a clone of him. So they could easily just take the boss and the trophy of said boss and re-name it to "Clone Ridley".

Apologies for the long post. It just takes me a little bit to get my two cents in about Ridley a lot of the time.

Looks like he takes up way too much space if you ask me. If anything this mod proves Sakurai right. Look at how long his wings and tail are.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It wouldn't be the first time Sakurai has redesigned a character specifically for Smash. Some changes are minor like Peach and Rosalina's dresses, while other changes like Pit's complete redesign are more major.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I can see why people might not want a change like that. Took me a while to get used to Rosalina's star pattern on her dress.

Lampy more meant that they could redesign Ridley heavily to better fit into Smash itself. Not simply add small changes that better fit the settings. Like the small bits in Brawl where Mario has darker colors, more details on his pants, etc. Think about it for a second; if Metroid Prime 4 is being developed by Namco-Bandai and they're also developing the new Smash, that means they have more freedom in making characters potentially possible for Smash itself. As said before, this obviously doesn't mean they will, but it means it's possible. That's what he's referring to.

Of course, it doesn't mean Ridley would remotely get in or that they'd try this either. As I said before, it's hardly as easy as it could be. First, they need to make sure Ridley works well with a new design. Second, it depends upon where Sakurai is when it comes to the next Smash's development. Is he a consultant? Does he have actual hard influence? Is he just there as more of someone to ask for advice, but not necessarily follow? Does Namco-Bandai agree with the idea of keeping Ridley more boss-like? As a game developer myself as well, it's never as simple as it sounds like. For that matter, this is also why I'm having trouble fixing up Brian's moveset right now. I can't figure out a balanced gimmick. It's crap-easy to make a working moveset alone. It's not easy making it balanced and makes it feel like the character. Even back when I made an OOT Ganondorf moveset, which was a bit more fitting(but only due to Dead Man's Volley, if I remember right. I lost the post), I realized that it doesn't have any real flow to it. There's no goal or focus. Sure, adding a sword in place of similar moves is cool, at best giving a little more range, but that's all it does. What does it change? Taking a look at many movesets, you notice something really nice.

TheLastJinjo I'm actually with Bowserlick on this one. Rosalina's moveset is blatantly a focus on Galaxy and what it's all about, with obviously the Luma as part of the rest. The gravity thing is a huge part of Galaxy's gameplay. Your Daisy example is vastly off too. Why would she use a Chain Chomp anyway? What does it make sense for her? The point of Toad is he is the fastest character. Taking games and using speed-based gameplay of which he's in to help make a unique moveset is very logical to me. Now, one point I do think is that he really needs a few unique abilities too, but other than that, he's good to go. Give a bit more, and the rest follows smoothly. I don't entirely agree with the rocket shoes idea, but it could actually work out too(also, it's not comparable to Zero Suit Samus for whoever said that. Those are heels and more meant for aerial gameplay. A better example is the shoes that Shadow wears. They're literal rocket shoes that helps him move faster with propulsion). On the other hand, it feels somewhat like a stretch. Now I could see him going into a Kart for his Dash Attack, and him being the top fastest(well, not as fast as Bowser) in Mario Kart is something he's actually known for. I still would see Toad as moving fast with his little legs, even if it would look odd, but they could do all kinds of things that still fit what he can possibly do. There's clear work to done, but I don't see any real issues with using his various abilities from spin-offs, simply because anybody else could do them. The fact of the matter is, they don't in Smash. As I said a bit earlier, Toad lacking in his own unique abilities is an issue that needs to be addressed first, but that doesn't hold back anything else. Using spin-offs for moves is just fine and works as long as it fits the character.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Pretty much, Ridley’s tail and wings would definitely be things worth a revamp if he will fit in.

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like he takes up way too much space if you ask me. If anything this mod proves Sakurai right. Look at how long his wings and tail are.

Actually he barely takes up any more space than Bowser. Towards the middle of the video he partners up with Bowser for a team battle just for referrals sake.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

TheLastJinjo I'm actually with Bowserlick on this one. Rosalina's moveset is blatantly a focus on Galaxy and what it's all about, with obviously the Luma as part of the rest. The gravity thing is a huge part of Galaxy's gameplay.

That's literally what I said. How are you agreeing with what I said and then saying you're with him?

Your Daisy example is vastly off too. Why would she use a Chain Chomp anyway?

That's the point! Bowserlick was saying that Rosalina didn't do this and that so that means it doesn't matter what a character does.

The point of Toad is he is the fastest character. Taking games and using speed-based gameplay of which he's in to help make a unique moveset is very logical to me.

I don't understand how it could. If Toad is so fast then why does he need a go kart? What do banana peels and koopa shells have to do with speed? Toad is fast therefore Mario Kart?!

What does Mario Kart have to do with Toad other than him being fast? Which negates the need for Mario Kart abilities.

 

[N. Onymous]

It's called Mario Kart, not Toad Kart.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Now I could see him going into a Kart for his Dash Attack, and him being the top fastest(well, not as fast as Bowser) in Mario Kart is something he's actually known for.

Uh, no?

Toad is like one of the slowest characters in the series. That's been the case for lightweights ever since Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

No offense. But you could have put a lot more thought into your reply than that.

And yes that video is supposed to (and does) make Ridley looke balanced. Forward Tilt range is admittedly a little weird but perfectly fixable (this is a mod after all. Actual game developers could do better) but everything else checks out fine. His size is reasonable being the size of Bowser with wings, No attacks apart from his forward tilt surpass Shulk or Corrin in Range (his forward Smash is the same range as theirs for example), he doesn't do unreasonably high amounts of damage (his ground pound is weaker than Bowser's for one thing), his recovery isn't even close to something like Brawl Meta Knight levels, being only slightly above someone like Charizard, and he doesn't have any cheap tricks like stun locking.

I can't tell much about balance from someone playing poorly on easy hard mode. I mean, I can't even tell how his recovery works. He gets killed by hitting the ceiling or sides every time he dies in that video.

Can anyone, not just psb123, tell me why Ridley wouldn't fly in Smash, other than that it would be broken?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't understand how it could. If Toad is so fast then why does he need a go kart? What do banana peels and koopa shells have to do with speed? Toad is fast therefore Mario Kart?!

That is not what Bowserlick's point is at all. You're overlooking it. It's called taking moves that fit him from games that he's in and using them. It's not a stretch and fits perfectly.

What does Mario Kart have to do with Toad other than him being fast? Which negates the need for Mario Kart abilities.[/QUOTE]
It's called a moveset. Characters don't just use solely canon moves but use moves that can work for them. It's literally no different from Pac-Man using the various retro arcade abilities that aren't entirely his own. It sounds beyond logical to me because he absolutely can use it. Pac-Man turns into a ball for his dash, completely changing his form to make the move work. What is wrong with Toad going into a Kart to do so? I don't see any issues here or how it doesn't fit his extremely speedy gameplay.

Having him do nothing but quick jabs and kicks is boring as hell and doesn't make a real moveset. Anybody can easily do that while not bringing anything new to the table. Mario Kart itself has a stage(well, I can't remember if 4 had more than one MK stage, but I think it was one max per physical game?) and some items. Toad's one of the most popular Mario Kart options due to being an easy character to play and being very fast. He's often used to finish the game and get various GP stuff done. This is something actually notable for him, moreso than other Mario Kart characters, even exclusive ones like Baby Daisy.

Why would Toad speed forward in a Kart when being the fastest character is what he's about when playable(obviously as noted later on Mario Kart is weird about this, but this is still important to his 64 appearance)? Because it actually fits. Why would Daisy use a Chain Chomp? I dunno. It doesn't have anything remotely logical to it and just there for the sake of it. They're poor comparisons because one is actually about who the character is. Toad using Mario Kart moves along with his own actually is pretty fitting at this point. He has tons of moves to draw from that aren't from canon games. Another thing to note is he's the original holder of the Power Stars in Mario Party, before he became playable. This also fits him kind of well. Albeit, that's more an issue with the series evolving. As I said, the only issue right now is that he lacks his own moves to at least start with. Using moves from various games he appears in and easily would do is not "unfitting". Speedy moves, when the fact him being the fastest is a key focus of his playable appearances in the platformers, is beyond fitting. The only character a Chain Chomp fits beyond Link due to actual games is... Bowser. Daisy is a middleweight and even if they took things from Mario Kart(which would work just fine as an idea for her), they'd need to more fit who she is.

Uh, no?

Toad is like one of the slowest characters in the series.

Yet still isn't that slow due to the acceleration overall. Also, depends the game; "

• Mario Kart 64: In Mario Kart 64, he is a lightweight. He is the lightest character in the game and has the highest top speed. His home course is Toad's Turnpike, and this is the first game where Toad gets a home course of his own. "

Most remember him from the most memorable game, Mario Kart 64. The problem is that lightweights vary too. Heavyweights tend to have top speed now, but that isn't always the case. It's a weird issue with the design of the series.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't tell much about balance from someone playing poorly on easy mode. I mean, I can't even tell how his recovery works. He gets killed by hitting the ceiling or sides every time he dies in that video.

Can anyone, not just psb123, tell me why Ridley wouldn't fly in Smash, other than that it would be broken?

He's not playing on easy mode. The difficulty was set to hard. And Ridley doesn't have to fly all the time in Smash. He doesn't even fly all the time in his boss fights in Metroid Games. He spends plenty of time fighting on the ground.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can't tell much about balance from someone playing poorly on easy mode. I mean, I can't even tell how his recovery works. He gets killed by hitting the ceiling or sides every time he dies in that video.

Can anyone, not just psb123, tell me why Ridley wouldn't fly in Smash, other than that it would be broken?

Broken is the key point, but keep in mind it means he can't be knocked off the stage and would be impossible as a normal fighter. This is why him being a boss with HP fits really really well while keeping within his character moreso than others.

That said, the mods are not bad, but lack balance too. It's hard to get him right in a platform fighter. To say the least, Ridley would work far better in a traditional fighter instead. He would be obviously overpowered, but it would still be doable. Could work fine as a playable boss option like Motaro/Goro/Shao Kahn/Kintaro in Martal Kombat.

 

[Bowserlick]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth , You need to read this too.


The point is flying WAY over your head. The point was that the Bowser Jr's mech is relevant to him. The abilities Rosalina has are relevant to her and the game she is known for being in. The reason Peach uses vegetables for example, is because that's the first game she was playable in. It's one of her most notable appearances. It's relevant to HER more than any other Mario character. When it comes to her abilities, Peach is known for being in Super Mario Bros 2. Rosalina is known for being in Super Mario Galaxy. The Clown Car and the space stuff are things that are relevant and unique to those characters.

You can't just go "Well, Rosalina never used a launch star so why can't Daisy have a Chain Chomp?!" Nothing about Mario Kart is unique to Toad. That's not what he's known for being in. Having Toad use Mario Kart items makes just as much sense as Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, or Wario using them. Toad's abilities should be something that are relevant to him! There are roles Toa

You're just pulling stuff out of your *** and trying to make it apply to Toad instead of coming up with something that sets Toad apart from the other Mario characters. Which is crucial for his inclusion in the first place.

Peach's vegetables were not more relevant to her than the other three playable characters in the game. In fact, Toad (being the strongest of them) could pluck heavy items faster out of the ground. Peach was the worst at this makiing her arguably the least relevant at the time with this ability. After Smash plucking vegetables is now more of a Peach thing. Toad is also the fastest character in the game. Now we go to Mariokart.

In the original Mariokart there are 8 racers. Toad is one of them and the only one not in Smash as a fighter. Mariokart has two components that represent Toad: speed and items. Mariokart is one of the best games that combines Toad's themes, thus it is a great fit for him.

 

[TurboGold]

between Brawl and Smash4 not so much content, custom move, Smash tour...
when Nintendo would not be able to offer sufficient for the series.
i think Nintendo can stop making other Smash game and let the fan community try to make the ultimate SSB perfect.

Unless Nintendo make the ultimate Super Smash Bros,
(for example; every character have over 50% even MatchUp, the game is fast but not too fast,
each player can select at the sreen character if they want a boost air dodge or multiple air dodge possible...)

every SSB is fun to play but i'm started getting bored to paid for a SSB game in the same way since the N64.
Playing in double or playing casual is the same since the N64 with more character/different ''game play''.
i'm not bored to play in that way. i just want to said that SSB is a Kirby game.
and when Nintendo would not be able to offer sufficient for the series, they must choose a real different way.

if SSB make a ''better'' Kirby game,
what if SSB was a real 3D game (i think everyone be agree with this one)
or what if SSB was a Fire Emblem game!(make me dream)
i think Nintendo can make a Mario kart game with the SSB universe (named Super Kart Bros or something like that)
a Mario Party can also be ridiculously fun.

what all you think about this?

 

[Deleted member]

While we do have outliers like Lucina who has an inaccurate personality, she also was a last-second clone and he has made characters a bit more angry-like to better fit into a fighting game(Mario is another example of this, as he's way more happy-go-lucky in the series.

Lucina was more of a localization error than anything else.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Yet still isn't that slow due to the acceleration overall. Also, depends the game; "

• Mario Kart 64: In Mario Kart 64, he is a lightweight. He is the lightest character in the game and has the highest top speed. His home course is Toad's Turnpike, and this is the first game where Toad gets a home course of his own. "

Most remember him from the most memorable game, Mario Kart 64. The problem is that lightweights vary too. Heavyweights tend to have top speed now, but that isn't always the case. It's a weird issue with the design of the series.

A. Acceleration and top speed are not the same thing.
B. I specifically said "since Mario Kart: Double Dash!!" I am aware Toad has high top speed in that game.
C. Honestly? Mario Kart 64 can **** itself; it's overrated as hell.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lucina was more of a localization error than anything else.

Ah. Well, then again, it's not like that hasn't been an issue before, heh.

A. Acceleration and top speed are not the same thing.
B. I specifically said "since Mario Kart: Double Dash!!" I am aware Toad has high top speed in that game.
C. Honestly? Mario Kart 64 can **** itself; it's overrated as hell.

A. Which does not make him slow at all. Speed is still blatantly a key focus of character.
B. I legit misread that.
C. I don't see an issue with the game. It had amazing balance compared to later games with reasonable items, the proper version of the Blue Shell that wasn't just a cheap item only, good courses, balanced characters that do the job well and very good battle courses overall. It actually did a really good job at evolving the series without making the A.I. completely insufferable and cheap, but still a challenge(with the rubberbanding A.I., which isn't an issue in itself as long as there's no extreme item spam like in games like Mario Kart Wii, which was honestly very unfun to play GP. Games that also don't allow for 2-Player GP also make it tedious and not fun at all. Made even worse when unlocking stuff didn't have any real choice besides cheap single-player modes. I can legitimately say that Smash Wii U's Classic felt vastly superior to Wii and 8's GP modes at that point. And that is one of the weaker Classic Modes too).

 

[Ura]

C. Honestly? Mario Kart 64 can **** itself; it's overrated as hell.

^ This is a bad opinion.

At this point I'm wondering why I still have Ridley on my ideal roster. Also he fits so damn well as a boss

\(°|°)/

Yeah touche. I always thought Ridley was better in the boss role than a playable one but I wouldn't really care either way.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

My main issues with Mario Kart 64 stem from the physics and drifting controls; I've played the game multiple times and still cannot get the hang of its controls as precisely as I can with, say, Mario Kart Wii or Mario Kart 8 (Deluxe). Also, and I get this is more of a subjective matter, but a lot of the game's tracks strike me as boring, really the only ones I can call interesting are Toad's Turnpike, Yoshi Valley, and DK's Jungle Parkway.

But, we're getting off topic here. This is a Super Smash Bros. discussion after all.

 

[Krysco]

I see Ridley's wings and tail mentioned a lot in terms of having him fit in properly, couldn't they just make use of the z axis like what they've done with Mewtwo's tail in Sm4sh? Still creates an issue on 2D stages but then other characters have that issue too. And actually, is there any sprites or pictures showing what Ridley's wings looked like when fully tucked in? Best I can find off a quick Google search is this:

They're still pretty tall I suppose but if they're kept in the background through the z axis then his hurtbox isn't overly large. Tail could follow the same logic although some if it should be on the playing field like how Mewtwo's is. I would mention Charizard too but I don't actually know if his tail is like that. I know his long neck is though.

 

[Zem-raj]

ehhhh I doubt it's that simple but what do I know about game development

\(°|°)/

I don't know, something about that just rubs me the wrong way.

It would still be better than that mod in Super Smash bros. for WiiU.

They could possibly have the tail pointing outwards (towards or away from the screen) when not in use.

The wings would be folded when not in use.

 

[Freduardo]

Peach's vegetables were not more relevant to her than the other three playable characters in the game. In fact, Toad (being the strongest of them) could pluck heavy items faster out of the ground. Peach was the worst at this makiing her arguably the least relevant at the time with this ability. After Smash plucking vegetables is now more of a Peach thing. Toad is also the fastest character in the game. Now we go to Mariokart.

In the original Mariokart there are 8 racers. Toad is one of them and the only one not in Smash as a fighter. Mariokart has two components that represent Toad: speed and items. Mariokart is one of the best games that combines Toad's themes, thus it is a great fit for him.

Toad isn’t the only member of the original Mario Kart 8 who’s not a fighter.

You couldn’t play as Wario in the original Mario kart, because he stole his kart from Koopa Troopa you could play as in that game before MK64 (in my headcannon).

You cannot play as Koopa Troopa in Smash.

You cannot play as Donkey among in the original Mario Kart.

Donkey Kong Jr on the other hand, is available. (Now if you believe donkey Kong with a tie is DK Jr, then this matters not).

DK Jr is (debatably) not in Smash.

 

[Troykv]

Sometimes I forgot how big are Ridley's wings. I usually I only think in his disjointed tail.

 

[Bowserlick]

Toad isn’t the only member of the original Mario Kart 8 who’s not a fighter.

You couldn’t play as Wario in the original Mario kart, because he stole his kart from Koopa Troopa you could play as in that game before MK64 (in my headcannon).

You cannot play as Koopa Troopa in Smash.

You cannot play as Donkey among in the original Mario Kart.

Donkey Kong Jr on the other hand, is available. (Now if you believe donkey Kong with a tie is DK Jr, then this matters not).

DK Jr is (debatably) not in Smash.

Forgot about Koopa. And yes you are correct about DK, although he is replaced with Donkey Kong.

Out of the original 8, Toad is the most likely Smash character not in Smash as a fighter.

* Although a Koopa could get in with Paper Mario.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

^ This is a bad opinion.

The CPU racers in Mario Kart 64 can be very unfair with their rubberbanding. At least the rubberbanding has been far less severe in the later Mario Kart titles, but instead of CPUs who receive unfair speed advantages, you have to instead watch out for item assaults from Red Shells, Spiny Shells, and even Lightning.

And speaking of Red Shells, they probably deserve a comeback after being absent from two Smash Bros. installments in a row.