Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[KingK]

....or metaknight....

*sigh*

10char

 

[a77]

Sheik?

Strong long range with needles. Good aerial game. Aerials can lead into combos. Tilts **** short-range. Struggles to get KOs. Her n-air and u-air lose almost all of their KOing power after they've been used once or twice (thus having to keep them fresh).

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

samus or metaknight i'd say

lol, they already did MK.

it could be shiek a77, but i just dont think (and if they do idk why'd they do that) they'd put zelda and shiek right next to eachother.

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

Jigglypuff, i bet my lasts coins on him! \o/

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Is that sarcasm/a joke? Jigglypuff doesn't have projectiles lol.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Characters with any long range (not counting characters already covered):
Fox
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Ness
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
P.Trainer
Samus
Sheik
Yoshi
ZS Samus

The following characters are NOT underestimated (or at least they shouldn't be):
Fox
Lucas
Luigi
Ness
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit

Excellent at close range:
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Sheik

Multiple KO moves:
P.Trainer
Yoshi

Which leaves
Mario
Peach
Samus
ZS Samus

Ironically, 3 out of these 4 were "hurt" in the transition from Melee to Brawl. However, all of these characters are still viable as competitive fighters. In ascending order:

4. Mario: the least changed and probably the least underestimated. He's the most balanced overall, but doesn't particularly shine in any category.

3. Zero Suit: her fantastic air game is probably the most obvious out of the group. She also has range game that doesn't require her projectile. Easy to earn kills in the air, VERY difficult to do so on the ground.

2. Samus: easily the strongest range game of these 4, and one of the best in the game (Pit or the Links could beat her). Her air game is good, but requires some setup and good chasing skills. Close game isn't bad, but a lot of her moves can be interrupted.

1. Peach: her air game didn't really suffer too much (except for her new second jump), but her close game did. The new Turnips make for more of a "mind" range game than an actual offense. I give it to her over Samus only because Peach's kill moves should be used more sparingly.

 

[ShadowLink84]

At a glance, Samus seems to be a great character. Her moves are quick. Her spikes are easy to land, and her projectiles are great. Her Screw Attack is instant, and her smashes are extremely quick and damaging. You probably won't notice the lack of KO power until you start comparing her with Ike.

Her projectiles are far from great.
Missiles are slow.
bombs are far from what they used to be.
Smashes are weak in knockback.
She has a harder time killing than Sonic.
Anyone lacks KO poer when compared to Ike (most of the cast anyway)

Lucario sucks on the surface. He starts out HORRIBLY weak, even weaker than Peach or Samus, and the difference isn't noticeable enough at high % due to the perception that at high %, you're supposed to kill. However, you might die first as everyone and their mother is stronger than you, and then you can't kill them! What the hell! And then you get 2-stocked. :


The story of the scrub Lucario.

Lucario has massive ability in combos and can combo very well. The very first thoughts of him wer ethat while he can't kill easily. His ability to rack up damage and combo better than the majority of the cast made up for this by far.

He can make up for killing power easily.

Aura sphere may lack priority but its spammable and pretty good, especially in a defense oriented game.
His roll is fast, quite possibly the best in the game.

The general populace may have underestimated Lucario somewhat, but he is y no means, a bad looking character at all.
Especially considering where they placed him in the tiers.

Sonic seems like a good character on the surface.

You must have arrived after April.

He's incredibly quick, which seems at first to make up for all his flaws.

untiil you attack with him and then you notice his attacks are average in speed which ANY n00b can spot. IN fact that was one of the reasons people said he sucked.
Le alone his lack of priority and difficult yin KOing.

You can't edgeguard him due to his stupid recovery, and he's just so gosh darn FAST that you just can't keep up because "YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOOOOOOOW."

Recovery is great that is true.
Yet if he looks so good on the surface, why do scrubs still insist on sticking him in bottom and low?
You provided something that shoed Lucario being so much worse and yet, why was his tier placement in upper mid?
Why has he beenscreeping up while Sonic hasn't gone anywhere from low?
The only ones that really say he is mid are the sonic mains, and a few other people.
Everyone else say that he is low tier.

Thats being underestimated.

You'll never kill with Bair our Aura Sphere at low % unless you're gimping or your opponent has an obscene amount of damage.

AH okay my mistake there then.
What about his other smashes like the Dsmash and Usmash? Well the Usmash is slo so forget that but does the Dsmash kill better than MK's Dsmash?
Grante dit isn't as fast butyou understand what I mean.

She's underrated, I'll give you that
But turnips are still horrible excuses for a projectile now. They can't be spammed due to their hour and a half of time needed to pluck just one and Peach's very weak throwing arm.
Her air and close game is good, however.

Glide tossing fixes the range of the turnips actually and the turnips are actually good.
Anyone who played melee understands how good her turnips really are.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

sheik samus pika

I'll go pika

 

[Kitamerby]

Her projectiles are far from great.
Missiles are slow.
bombs are far from what they used to be.
Smashes are weak in knockback.
She has a harder time killing than Sonic.
Anyone lacks KO poer when compared to Ike (most of the cast anyway)

This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.

Lucario has massive ability in combos and can combo very well. The very first thoughts of him wer ethat while he can't kill easily. His ability to rack up damage and combo better than the majority of the cast made up for this by far.

Combo? Combo? Lucario cannot "combo better than the majority of the cast." He can string two hits together or the same move over and over again at low %. That's it. His "combos" are extremely easy to see coming, as they usually start with Lucario jumping at you with Fair, walking towards you with ftilt, or just plain you screwing up and getting behind him/too close so he can nab you with utilt. That's it. His "combos" only work until certain %, after which Fair gets too much knockback to allow a regular followup. His "great combos" are all really strings aside from fair>___, ftilt spam and utilt spam, and many only work at certain %s.
:/

That's where the mindgames come in, of course, which is where Lucario usually gets his edge to incorporate these "combos." Lucario's "comboing ability" is just a silly term thrown around for his mindgames and Fair followups. Also, his combos become increasingly less useful and stop working at lower and lower %s as his damage increases. You won't be getting any ForcePalm chains at 80%.

He can make up for killing power easily.

No he can't. He still needs mid-high % or for you to be obscenely high % before he can kill you. Until he gets to 100+, he won't be getting any "good" KO ability. Until then, he has to rely on his "combos" to get your % much higher than his so he can KO you when the time comes. However, with our constant use of Fsmash and Aura Sphere, we have to really think hard about our options when its time to go for the kill.

Aura sphere may lack priority but its spammable and pretty good, especially in a defense oriented game.
His roll is fast, quite possibly the best in the game.

Aura Sphere's priority goes up with his damage. Only certain projectiles will negate/clash it out at any %. Pikmin and Grenades are the main ones, I believe.
His roll being good doesn't mean anything. Yes, it's fast, but you still can't spam it or else you'll become predictable.

The general populace may have underestimated Lucario somewhat, but he is y no means, a bad looking character at all.
Especially considering where they placed him in the tiers.

The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.

You must have arrived after April.

Nope, I've been tracking this since Brawl's original release date.

untiil you attack with him and then you notice his attacks are average in speed which ANY n00b can spot. IN fact that was one of the reasons people said he sucked.
Le alone his lack of priority and difficult yin KOing.

Not noticeable at first. His attacks are very quick. Look at his fair, nair, uair, ftilt,bair, jab*combo, dash attack, SideB, DownB, UpB, dsmash, utilt, and dtilt and then tell me that he's slow. Most of his moves are very quick. Of course when you compare him to Marth who's start-up is around -3 frames, you notice it, but if you just look at Sonic himself, his moves are VERY quick (aside from fsmash, which is the most noticeable, and possibly the only move that really is "slow.") Priority doesn't matter at a distance. Sonic's attacks and movement speed hit before the opponent can react due to their speed, as no "n00b" will have the insane reaction time needed in order to outspace him. Hell, I go occasionally/went to this forum in which they had no real knowledge of the tournament scene, and everyone thought Sonic wasn't the best, but thought he was definitely a middle-of-the-road character due to his incredible movement speed and attacks.

Recovery is great that is true.
Yet if he looks so good on the surface, why do scrubs still insist on sticking him in bottom and low?
You provided something that shoed Lucario being so much worse and yet, why was his tier placement in upper mid?
Why has he beenscreeping up while Sonic hasn't gone anywhere from low?
The only ones that really say he is mid are the sonic mains, and a few other people.
Everyone else say that he is low tier.

That's being underestimated.

The biggest reason that Sonic is considered to be "low" and "bottom" is because of it being a trend. Everyone says it. The best players say it. All the tier lists say it. It must be true. However, if you look back at the game before the American release, everyone was talking about how Sonic would be mid-tier. Remember when people thought Pit would be the new Falco because of his quick attacks and very spammable arrows? Lucario's placement is usually "upper-mid" only by the knowledgeable players. Often, his placement is mid-mid by the average casual players.

AH okay my mistake there then.
What about his other smashes like the Dsmash and Usmash? Well the Usmash is slo so forget that but does the Dsmash kill better than MK's Dsmash?
Grante dit isn't as fast butyou understand what I mean.

Dsmash and Usmash are entirely situational due to their startup. Dsmash has too much start-up for too little range when it comes to Lucario. It's trajectory, however is very favorable. It's only true use is a tech-chase so far, as it's start-up is way too lengthy for it to be as spammable as fsmash. Usmash, however, is actually a bit more useful, despite it's 15-frame startup (which is actually slightly better than bair. Haha.) and very little horizontal range (at the start.) When used, it forms an impenetrable shield from above. (Take that, Toon Link!) that lasts a HILARIOUSLY long time. It has no horizontal range at the start yes, but that's the funny thing. The Hitbox is absolutely ridiculous. Throughout the move, Lucario is a hitbox. The hitbox is mostly invisible and goes a bit higher than the aura burst itself. It starts off invisibly around the tail area, then swirls up Lucario into his hand, and then seems to somehow grow an extra hitbox section near the front of his knees near the end, picking up people nearby who thought it'd be a good idea to charge a smash while being too close because we whiffed it stupidly. <<

Glide tossing fixes the range of the turnips actually and the turnips are actually good.
Anyone who played melee understands how good her turnips really are.

Glide tossing does not make her turnips go any farther. The point is that they do not fly far enough to be a long range weapon without Peach stepping into mid-range. =P


We need to think outside the box, people!

 

[Mr.Charisma]

sheik samus pika

I'll go pika

First off Pika is in no way underestimated he is considered a Mid high-High tier character, although his ranged game is quite good (a spammy surface clinging projectile), his close range game is by no means weak the weakest part of that game is his tilts which are weakish, but he maore than makes up for them with his smashes which are (for the most part) Lag-free, and are all powerful. Pika's ariels while strong are short-ranged so he may not have a bad air game it is not "awesome". As for KO's Pika has a good number of moves that can KO very well F-smash, U-smash, and D-smash not to mention Thunder.

so i guess I'm saying its not Pika....

 

[MiraiGen]

God, the SBR throws in "Underestimated" and everyone uses it like a weapon to deflect guesses.

One of these days they're going to call Pit and Marth "Underestimated" just because they want to screw with us.

I want everyone to note he does NOT say "Projectile." Its "Long Range." There is a difference, since Sonic's run/dash attack/Spin Attack into Fair or Nair could qualify as "long range" since it takes you only a moment to get up close.

Sonic, Peach, and Lucario seem all equally likely. I'm guessing Peach.

 

[Nitrix]

Although, the character struggles to get KOs if you don't keep the few KO attacks fresh.

This hint does not match with Lucario.

Lucario can kill with tons of his moves, and thus doesn't suffer from moves becoming stale. This hint does however, apply to Samus.

This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.

Really? To me, Samus on the surface looks like a clumsy character who can't do much.

 

[YoshiBomb]

I think its Yoshi

Multiple KO moves:
P.Trainer
Yoshi

Yoshi only really has a few kill moves that work well

Up smash ( have fun trying to get to actually kill since its one of yoshi best moves and is used a lot)
Over Smash (It is a great move however setting up for it is very difficult as well as spacing for it)
U air ( great move can usually kill unless you really spam it but if your not circulating through all of Yoshi's great air move then theres a problem)

All the rest of the moves can kill but you almost have to never use them which is hard when facing some of the cast. So when compared to some of the other people on your list of the people it could be they have the same if not more.



This character is yet another underestimated one,(Obv Yoshi is very underestimated by most people ) who on the surface seems to be horrible.(I don't think so but most everyone else does) But in reality, with enough persistence, this character can become a force to reckon with in the future.(Through AT also Yoshi has an extreme learning curve and it takes people a while to get good with him) With a strong long range game and an awesome aerial game that can open up plenty of combos if you know how to do it right, this character can keep up with the rest.(EGGS, Also anyone of Yoshi's Air moves are good) This character's short range game, while at first may seem to be the character's weakest attribute, is actually quite strong if you know how to use it well.(Charging in with the dash attack and a lot of Up smashes as well as great tilts and an ok a attack) Although, the character struggles to get KOs if you don't keep the few KO attacks fresh.(The one thing that keeps me from winning games is most def this though thats probably my fault it still plagues even the greatest Yoshi's )

 

[UnSaxon51]

I want everyone to note he does NOT say "Projectile." Its "Long Range."

This is true. Long range does not automatically mean projectile, although projectiles are included in long range. I suppose I should have included Marth and Ike in my summary due to their disjointed sword-boxes. But then again, neither of them have any problems getting KOs, so it's sort of a moot point.
Of course, there's no denying that a good projectile automatically provides for a strong range game.

However, I do not think Sonic qualifies for "long range" since even his attacks that start from long range require you to actually come in contact with the opponent. It doesn't help his case that many of these attacks leave him pretty open. I guess you could make the argument that he has a decent "hit and run" strategy, but that certainly shouldn't be considered a "strong long range game".

 

[Kitamerby]

This hint does not match with Lucario.

Lucario can kill with tons of his moves, and thus doesn't suffer from moves becoming stale. This hint does however, apply to Samus.

...Let's look at Lucario's RELIABLE kill moves (not the situational ones, which everyone has)
Aura Sphere (Fully Charged)
Fsmash
Dair

All of his other KO moves (Bair, Nair, Uair, Usmash, Dsmash) are entirely situational, and the situations aren't too common.

Really? To me, Samus on the surface looks like a clumsy character who can't do much.

Meh, could go either way, really. Hell, if you look at the Samus threads (the old ones), there was a thread of newbies telling how they liked the new Samus for such-and-such reasons, while the older members tried to reason with them how she sucked.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Yoshi only really has a few kill moves that work well

Up smash ( have fun trying to get to actually kill since its one of yoshi best moves and is used a lot)
Over Smash (It is a great move however setting up for it is very difficult as well as spacing for it)
U air ( great move can usually kill unless you really spam it but if your not circulating through all of Yoshi's great air move then theres a problem)

All the rest of the moves can kill but you almost have to never use them which is hard when facing some of the cast. So when compared to some of the other people on your list of the people it could be they have the same if not more.

In my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, though, since I don't play Yoshi and don't particularly like him. I still think Samus or Peach fit better overall.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I really don't think Lucario is "underestimated". Look at his tourney results... anyone who's underestimating him at this point is an idiot. That would not include people in the SBR, I don't think.
And, like I said earlier, the hint says "could be a force to reckon with IN THE FUTURE." I take that to mean "not right now". It doesn't fit Lucario, because he's a force to reckon with already.

 

[biohazard930]

The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.

This is your best, point but you totally ignore the fact that Lucario is ranked in the top 10 in tournaments, according to Ankoku. While he may slip by the "underestimated" and "looks horrible" clues, he in no way qualifies for "this character can become a force to reckon with in the future." He's already there.

 

[biohazard930]

In my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, though, since I don't play Yoshi and don't particularly like him. I still think Samus or Peach fit better overall.

Dsmash? Yoshi's most nerfed move? Weird. :-/

Double Post MADNESS, I have.

 

[Kitamerby]

This is your best, point but you totally ignore the fact that Lucario is ranked in the top 10 in tournaments, according to Ankoku. While he may slip by the "underestimated" and "looks horrible" clues, he in no way qualifies for "this character can become a force to reckon with in the future." He's already there.

....Well, crap. Congratulations. You've completely shut down my argument. Back to the drawing board, then.

 

[Rambo23]

I think the next one will be Wario personally

 

[demodemo]

klsajdlahds its sheik, guys..

 

[Pitbull]

Mario.

I say Mario because I think of him as underestimated. He has good air game that he can actually combo with, his fireball is a pretty nice LONG RANGE projectile, and most of his melee attacks are short ranged. Also unless you gimp somebody or they are at high percents it can be pretty tough to KO with Mario.

I don't know how he might "seem horrible" but I'm gonna go with my gut and stick with Mario.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd guess Zamus. Her Neutral B and Up B have some great range, while Side B is a tad slow, but still a mildly distant and powerful attack. FSmash is pretty terrible, but in some situations (short range) it can be decent seeing as how it strikes behind her, but most enemies may see this coming. DSmash is a great way to rack up damage and start combos, but is not a strong killing move by any means. USmash may not be the best KOing move, but it has stable range and is another way to build up the opponent's damage. Utilt can be hard to conect with, but has some potential. Ftilt can be angled--at its lowest it can trip, so it's not all bad. Dtilt's fullest potential is obiviously used when crawling, so it's great for approaching campers whose projectiles zoom over you.

Fair is combo-able into many things, Dair can Meteor in beginning frames (Risky), and although Nair can be annoying to use, it always does 10% and never decays (thanks to RyokoYaksa for finding this out).

EDIT: Can't spell, left in one paragraph...

 

[Kitamerby]

Bleh, back to the drawing board. I'll start all over.

This character is yet another underestimated one, who on the surface seems to be horrible. But in reality, with enough persistance, this character can become a force to reckon with in the future. With a strong long range game and an awesome aerial game that can open up plenty of combos if you know how to do it right, this character can keep up with the rest. This character's short range game, while at first may seem to be the character's weakest attribute, is actually quite strong if you know how to use it well. Although, the character struggles to get KOs if you don't keep the few KO attacks fresh.

Let's start with everyone who's left.
Marth,
Lucario,
Wario,
Olimar,
Donkey Kong,
Fox,
Ice Climbers,
Kirby,
Pit,
Peach,
Ness,
Pikachu,
Luigi,
Captain Falcon,
Zelda,
Zero Suit Samus,
Samus,
Bowser,
Ike,
Jigglypuff,
Pokémon Trainer,
Lucas,
Sonic,
Sheik,
Mario,
Yoshi

Alright. Now, I'll try the logic that was used against me, and cut off everyone from A/B ranking in Ankoku's list, as they obviously already are a "force to be reckoned with."
We're then left with:

Peach,
Ness,
Pikachu,
Luigi,
Captain Falcon,
Zelda,
Zero Suit Samus,
Samus,
Bowser,
Ike,
Jigglypuff,
Pokémon Trainer,
Lucas,
Sonic,
Sheik,
Mario,
Yoshi.

Now, let's take out everyone who doesn't have a projectile for long-range game.

Peach,
Ness,
Pikachu,
Luigi,
Zero Suit Samus (MEBBIE),
Samus,
Pokémon Trainer,
Lucas,
Sheik,
Mario,
Yoshi.

Now, let's take out everyone who never has problems KOing.

Peach,
Samus,
Sheik,
Mario,
Yoshi. (MEBBIE)

Now, let's take out people who only use their good KO moves for KOing purposes...

Peach

Kay, I'm confused again. >>

I think it's Peach.

Or it may be Pit, but meh.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.

As soon as you pick up any other character with a ranged game you learn how flawed her projectiles game is.
You pick up Falco, pit, Link, anyone else and youll see how bad her projectile game is.
You use anyone else and you'll find her KO game is severely lacking.

but hey I do delve into things but I am sure that anyone who is not lacking any sense would notice the weaknesses as soon as they use someone else.

Combo? Combo? Lucario cannot "combo better than the majority of the cast." He can string two hits together or the same move over and over again at low %. That's it. His "combos" are extremely easy to see coming, as they usually start with Lucario jumping at you with Fair, walking towards you with ftilt, or just plain you screwing up and getting behind him/too close so he can nab you with utilt. That's it. His "combos" only work until certain %, after which Fair gets too much knockback to allow a regular followup. His "great combos" are all really strings aside from fair>___, ftilt spam and utilt spam, and many only work at certain %s.
:/

Easy to see coming?
Yeah.
Easy to stop?
no.
They are very fast and they link to many of his moves both aerially and on the ground.
How many characters can you name that can do the ssame thing>
Lucario has much more combos than a large majority of the cast, that is a fact.
He also can start his combos more easily.
Yeah he may be predictable, but even if MK ere to act predictably that wouldn't make his combos any less good. They ahve the speed and priority to make up for the predictability.

stuff

Mindgames are intangible don't bring them up since they rely on a person's reactions.
Don't bring them up please.

No he can't. He still needs mid-high % or for you to be obscenely high % before he can kill you. Until he gets to 100+, he won't be getting any "good" KO ability. Until then, he has to rely on his "combos" to get your % much higher than his so he can KO you when the time comes. However, with our constant use of Fsmash and Aura Sphere, we have to really think hard about our options when its time to go for the kill.

Mmk

Aura Sphere's priority goes up with his damage. Only certain projectiles will negate/clash it out at any %. Pikmin and Grenades are the main ones, I believe.

Far more beats it. Luigi can stop it with a Nair.
Sonic cans top it with a Fair.
It has subpar priority even at max damage.

His roll being good doesn't mean anything. Yes, it's fast, but you still can't spam it or else you'll become predictable.

Of course not but its much more versatile than Samus, Link and Sonic.
You will be predictable, but unlike other characters, he doesn't suffer as greatly frm being predictable. IMO.

The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.

I had never used Lucario until recently and I was quite sure he as not horrible on the surface.
(though I still dislike him)

Nope, I've been tracking this since Brawl's original release date.

I mean joined smashboards.

Not noticeable at first. His attacks are very quick. Look at his fair, nair, uair, ftilt,bair, jab*combo, dash attack, SideB, DownB, UpB, dsmash, utilt, and dtilt and then tell me that he's slow. Most of his moves are very quick.

Utilt=average
Dtilt=average
Ftilt=average
jab=fast
^B=fast
sideB=below average start up
downB=average start up
Dsmash=not fast

Nair=fast
Fair=fast
Uair=somewhat.
Bair=below average.

heck he needs to charge both his side B and down B before they become very fast.

Of course when you compare him to Marth who's start-up is around -3 frames, you notice it, but if you just look at Sonic himself, his moves are VERY quick (aside from fsmash, which is the most noticeable, and possibly the only move that really is "slow.")

Read the above.
The fact of the amtter is it IS comparing to other characters.
You can't say this guy's aerial game is poor if you've never played the other characters or used them.

Priority doesn't matter at a distance.

His attacks are all up close.
Priority matters at a distance with projectiles.
Of course side B and down B break projectiles but thats another story entirely.
Sonic can play defense but either way, he needs to be close range to fight.

Sonic's attacks and movement speed hit before the opponent can react due to their speed, as no "n00b" will have the insane reaction time needed in order to outspace him. Hell, I go occasionally/went to this forum in which they had no real knowledge of the tournament scene, and everyone thought Sonic wasn't the best, but thought he was definitely a middle-of-the-road character due to his incredible movement speed and attacks.

As you said we are looking on the surface. And trust me, when the game first came out thats what everyone was looking at.
During that time when he came out the priority, lack of range were the main issue.
Inf act it still is, so far stutterstepping, spinshotting and spin jumps are what have helped speed him up.
His ground speed his great but everyone else is nowhere close.
Especially when you look at MK.

What they mean is how badly they look in comparison to other characters, not just on their own.

The biggest reason that Sonic is considered to be "low" and "bottom" is because of it being a trend. Everyone says it. The best players say it. All the tier lists say it. It must be true. However, if you look back at the game before the American release, everyone was talking about how Sonic would be mid-tier. Remember when people thought Pit would be the new Falco because of his quick attacks and very spammable arrows? Lucario's placement is usually "upper-mid" only by the knowledgeable players. Often, his placement is mid-mid by the average casual players.

Yet unlike Lucario, Sonic was still being judged as low or bottom even by the top players.
It took alot of time to even show he had good capabilities and people still say he is low tier or bottom tier and still say somethings that are utrue.

Many people attribute his tournaments wins to popularity.
POOpULARITY! When sonic is far from being popular. heck several characters who have no turnament wins are actually popular than him.

That is being under estimated and he still is being underestimated and is still considered a horrible character.
People were saying he would be midtier prior to the games release but as soon as they got it, lo and behold the **** hit the fan so to speak.

If Lucario was as underestimated as Sonic, he wouldn't have creeped into high tier and there would be more people protesting him as a being a good character even if he had the wins to prove it.

Sonic has 4 tournament wins in total counting spring and summer and yet he's still being placed in low tier and sometimes bottom more often than middle.
There is far more pointing to Sonic being an underestimated character than Lucario.
Especially when no one doubted Lucario's close range and aerial game.

Glide tossing does not make her turnips go any farther. The point is that they do not fly far enough to be a long range weapon without Peach stepping into mid-range. =P

Actually glide tossing improves her close range game as well as her spacing ablity.
Obviously I hadn't meant increasing her tossing range since it doesn't increase sonic's throwing range either.

We need to think outside the box, people!

IMO we are going too far outside the box.

 

[biohazard930]

Bleh, back to the drawing board. I'll start all over.

...

Now, let's take out people who only use their good KO moves for KOing purposes...

Peach

Kay, I'm confused again. >>

I think it's Peach.

Or it may be Pit, but meh.

Hehe, gotta keep you in check. ;-)

But anyway, Yoshi does not need to be eliminated in the "people who only use their good KO moves for KOing purposes."

Yoshi's decent kill moves: Fsmash, Usmash, Uair, DownB (on ground). Fair is a situational spike, so it doesn't qualify.

Fsmash is the one I may concede. It's main purpose is killing and isn't found stale as often.

Usmash is used in combos, and not as the end move. So is Uair. As an example I offer a favorite combo: Bair, Utilt, Usmash, Uair, (Uair), (Dair), etc.

DownB (especially on the ground - the version that is a kill move) is used not uncommonly to mix up Yoshi's typical up close game, which reads (Bair), (either Jab, Jab or Ftilt), Dash, Egg, Grab, etc. or something similar. Stick in a Pound instead of a dash or something to keep things fresh. Then follow up with Uair or something.

 

[Chaco]

DownB (especially on the ground - the version that is a kill move) is used not uncommonly to mix up Yoshi's typical up close game, which reads (Bair), (either Jab, Jab or Ftilt), Dash, Egg, Grab, etc. or something similar. Stick in a Pound instead of a dash or something to keep things fresh. Then follow up with Uair or something.

Find it odd or not, but ask around it's my main offensive move. It works for me, and I find it having the best KO rate of all of Yoshi's KO moves.

 

[Hype]

Fox just jumped out at me when i first read the hint, but I didn't realize hes 13th in the character ranking list.

 

[Browny]

ffs its pretty obvious its not lucario lol let it die already...

btw sonics uair isnt average speed, although i dont have the frame measurement things, i wouldnt be surprised if it was 1-2 frames, i cant see a frame in 1/4 speed training where the attack starts up before the hitbox comes out

 

[YoshiBomb]

In my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, though, since I don't play Yoshi and don't particularly like him. I still think Samus or Peach fit better overall.

Your pretty much right but you really really need to conserve the down smash if you want to kill with it or be able to get the near the edge when you do it

 

[Scala]

Your pretty much right but you really really need to conserve the down smash if you want to kill with it or be able to get the near the edge when you do it

Yeah, yoshi's dsmash really won't kill until 160% AND reasonably close to the ledge. Heavier characters it can get higher. It's definitely not a kill move IMO.

Also the description says something about a great aerial game and I think it's going to be Yoshi... Peach is an option but I don't think her turnips are good enough of a "long range game" to satisfy the condition in the clue.

 

[Union of Darkness]

Samus. It's probably Samus. She has a good long range game and good aerial game but has few good KO moves. She can combo well if played correctly. No one really takes her seriously since she was "nerfed from melee."

 

[-Ran]

My guess is Samus as well.

 

[LuigiKing]

NO way 13 is anyone but Sheik, I'm calling it right now.

 

[Union of Darkness]

NO way 13 is anyone but Sheik, I'm calling it right now.

Sheik has practically no long range attacks.

 

[Onxy]

NO way 13 is anyone but Sheik, I'm calling it right now.

Greatest. Avatar. Ever.

 

[Grunt]

Greatest. Avatar. Ever.

seconded.
BTW guise, It's PIKACHU!

 

[Vulcan55]

my guess is Lucario

 

[ShadowLink84]

ffs its pretty obvious its not lucario lol let it die already...

btw sonics uair isnt average speed, although i dont have the frame measurement things, i wouldnt be surprised if it was 1-2 frames, i cant see a frame in 1/4 speed training where the attack starts up before the hitbox comes out

Eh I am probably off on it.
however by no emans does it mean Sonic is fast in attack moves.