Shovel Knight ~ Steel Thy Shovel! Amiibo CONFIRMED!

[Kenith]

If Ryu shares his pain animation with Shulk, why wouldn't Isaac share some animations with other characters?

...what?

The problem is that Isaac would probably be 100% original. He doesn't and shouldn't share animations unless he's a clone, which he won't. The only plausible newcomer that could and likely would is Dixie Kong.

Apparently every DLC character so far sans Mewtwo has reused another character's skeleton structure.
While it would not be shared animations most likely, he might have the bone structure of one of the humanoid characters.

 

[FunAtParties]

...what?

There's a sourcegaming article linked about this on the last page. I feel no need to further reiterate the same point.

Apparently every DLC character so far sans Mewtwo has reused another character's skeleton structure.
While it would not be shared animations most likely, he might have the bone structure of one of the humanoid characters.

Thus supporting the idea he'd be easier to make, right??

To be clear, I have no experience in these things. I am not a developer, nor aspire to be. Most of the stuff I'm saying is being repeated from other conversations, articles, etc... that I now believe to be true. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Now that that's out of the way, let me reiterate my "point". I believed Isaac to be more likely, because his model would most likely end up similar to a FE character. Whether that means reusing a skeleton structure or whatever I don't know, but I have heard this is a common practice to help speed up development time, and keep costs low, which would obviously make his character more likely to be made. As the article I linked earlier alluded to, characters that have similar skeletons can share animations (like the "pain" animation I talked about earlier), which should also be fairly useful in speeding up development time right?

So, with that information, I am assuming that a character like Isaac, who as said, bears many physical similarities to pre-existing characters, should be more likely to make it in the game then a character like King K. Rool who really doesn't (I guess maybe Bowser, but that's a stretch).

 

[Kenith]

There's a sourcegaming article linked about this on the last page. I feel no need to further reiterate the same point.

Thus supporting the idea he'd be easier to make, right??

To be clear, I have no experience in these things. I am not a developer, nor aspire to be. Most of the stuff I'm saying is being repeated from other conversations, articles, etc... that I now believe to be true. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Now that that's out of the way, let me reiterate my "point". I believed Isaac to be more likely, because his model would most likely end up similar to a FE character. Whether that means reusing a skeleton structure or whatever I don't know, but I have heard this is a common practice to help speed up development time, and keep costs low, which would obviously make his character more likely to be made. As the article I linked earlier alluded to, characters that have similar skeletons can share animations (like the "pain" animation I talked about earlier), which should also be fairly useful in speeding up development time right?

So, with that information, I am assuming that a character like Isaac, who as said, bears many physical similarities to pre-existing characters, should be more likely to make it in the game then a character like King K. Rool who really doesn't (I guess maybe Bowser, but that's a stretch).

Reusing a character's bone structure saves an incredibly small amount of work.
It just means that the devs don't have to build a new skeleton to rig a new character's model to - they just snap that model to an existing model.
All animations still have to be done from scratch.

Having similarities to the human characters doesn't put Isaac above King K. Rool whatsoever. He'd require the same amount of work.

 

[FunAtParties]

Reusing a character's bone structure saves an incredibly small amount of work.
It just means that the devs don't have to build a new skeleton to rig a new character's model to - they just snap that model to an existing model.
All animations still have to be done from scratch.

Having similarities to the human characters doesn't put Isaac above King K. Rool whatsoever. He'd require the same amount of work.

As said in another comment, fair enough. Appreciate the correction. Is there no way to borrow animations though, without becoming a full on clone character? I was under the impression there was.

 

[Kenith]

As said in another comment, fair enough. Appreciate the correction. Is there no way to borrow animations though, without becoming a full on clone character? I was under the impression there was.

For Isaac?
There's no point in adding Isaac if he's going to borrow other character's animations. He can be highly unique and doesn't need to be restricted by other characters.
In short, no. Absolutely not.

 

[FunAtParties]

For Isaac?
There's no point in adding Isaac if he's going to borrow other character's animations. He can be highly unique and doesn't need to be restricted by other characters.
In short, no. Absolutely not.

If it's not needed I wouldn't want them to anyway, but if it saved a good amount of time, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple animations taken from Robin. They're very similar by nature, I could see it working without being too noticeable.

 

[Munomario777]

For Isaac?
There's no point in adding Isaac if he's going to borrow other character's animations. He can be highly unique and doesn't need to be restricted by other characters.
In short, no. Absolutely not.

I think he means things like flinching animations and such. Like how Mac and Falcon have the same buried, stunned, flinching, and item swing animations.

It's definitely possible to port over animations to save on time, FunAtParties ; see the above Mac/Falcon example.

 

[Kenith]

If it's not needed I wouldn't want them to anyway, but if it saved a good amount of time, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple animations taken from Robin. They're very similar by nature, I could see it working without being too noticeable.

The point is, Isaac would not be easier to make than King K. Rool just because he has a similar stature to Robin/Marth/whatever.
Because by that logic, King K. Rool is similar to Bowser, Donkey Kong, and King Dedede.

 

[FunAtParties]

The point is, Isaac would not be easier to make than King K. Rool just because he has a similar stature to Robin/Marth/whatever.
Because by that logic, King K. Rool is similar to Bowser, Donkey Kong, and King Dedede.

Isaac has similar proportions to those characters listed though. K.Rool's head is much smaller than the character's you listed. I'd imagine that'd be a problem.

Munomario777 Thanks, that is what I meant.

 

[LancerStaff]

If Nintendo made a ballot to let fans decide the next Smash character and then chose one that got very few votes instead of the more voted for ones, that counts as deceptive in my book. Unless all the top picks happened to be Goku, Shrek, etc, which I seriously doubt.

Plus, I don't see why Nintendo would want to even pull something like that in the first place. Choosing the least popular fighters ain't gonna help you sell more DLC.

I don't see that example I asked for. I will pay no heed to unsubstantiated claims.

Correct, which is why I listed more than animations.

The boulder was more to demonstrate the unique potential of a shovel from an aesthetics standpoint. It could have some neat quirks to it though, such as the boulder growing if you charge the move and thus dealing more damage, but being slower too (as I touched on in my post).

Actually, it would function quite differently. It's more along the lines of Link's; rather than a stall-then-fall, this simply creates a hitbox below Shovel Knight for as long as the button is held. Furthermore, the attack would be much quicker than Link's as you can exit out of it at any time by simply releasing the button, giving it much more comboing utility and making it an overall safer option.

How so? If you read my post that I linked to previously (which I don't get the impression that you have), Shovel Knight does retain movement during the bounce, but since his opponent can DI, he has to react and move in the same direction.

Yes, because the Villager only uses it for one move, and for its basic function. Shovel Knight, naturally, would use it for multiple purposes.

How so? It's only redundant if another character shares this purpose. Burying isn't exactly the main focus of the moveset I presented, though. It's a useful tool that comes up in a couple of moves and ties into the rest of the moveset well, but it's not the main focus.

...with a unique mechanic tied to them, yes. They have a different place in the playstyle than Chef does -- since Shovel Knight needs to collect the gems off of the ground, the move serves to clear the way for Shovel Knight to run over and collect them, possibly with his Side Special or something. Shovel Knight can't just camp with gems all day, since to make good use of the move, he'll need to charge into the front lines himself.

How so?

I don't see how it'd be "nearly impossible to use." Care to elaborate?

---------

On the subject of Isaac, sharing animations etc isn't really gonna improve his chances all that much. It'd make him a tad easier to make, sure, but they can do that stuff quickly enough anyways.

Nintendo never once said that we were outright choosing a character. More often it's been referred to a suggestion box... "The smash suggestion box" doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

Characters aren't a collection of minor throwaway gimmicks though, they need an actual playstyle. I don't see much here. The boulder is one such gimmick, and only appears to exist in attempt to shake the generic swordsman moniker.

I don't think you realize how overpowered you're making the pogo. No character has a hitbox they can hold out as long as they're in the air, much less cancel it with something else. Or be disjointed at all. This thing stops air dodges and follow-ups cold.

So now you need a dedicated move to grab the gems? If this takes any time at all then anybody with a decent approach will permanently shut down the whole gimmick. How can he afford to grab gems with a Villager or WFT plinking away with their own projectiles, much less a FFA?

Samus gets walked over because she needs to sit still and charge. SK has to move rather predictably to even use the move, and then if the character can camp at all SK can't even use the money bags because they don't have any reason to get close to them. Pac's trampoline and hydrant work because you don't want him getting a key. Duck Hunt's can and Junior's Mechakoopa chases you across the stage. SK can pelt rocks at you. If the move does have massive range then you need to get in deep to get them, but if SK's good at that then you have another Shiek. If it lacks range, then he can get the gems but gets stomped by anybody with decent projectiles.

The deeper we dig the bigger the problems become, it seems.

 

[Munomario777]

Nintendo never once said that we were outright choosing a character. More often it's been referred to a suggestion box... "The smash suggestion box" doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

Correct, it doesn't have the same "ring." However, it also doesn't have the same definition. I hate to get into semantics here, but it seems like that's what it's come to. "Ballot" is essentially a synonym for "vote" -- or a method of voting -- the definition of which is, "a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice." The key word here is "choice." We the fans are voting in the ballot, so we the fans are making the choice. The very naming of the project directly implies this.

Characters aren't a collection of minor throwaway gimmicks though, they need an actual playstyle. I don't see much here.

Probably because you didn't read the moveset.

The boulder is one such gimmick, and only appears to exist in attempt to shake the generic swordsman moniker.

I just felt it fit as an up smash, and fit in with the whole shovel theme.

I don't think you realize how overpowered you're making the pogo. No character has a hitbox they can hold out as long as they're in the air, much less cancel it with something else. Or be disjointed at all. This thing stops air dodges and follow-ups cold.

First off, I'll just say that I'm not the best at balancing this sort of thing (and that not being able to actually playtest anything doesn't help much). With that said, I don't see what's so broken about a move that you can keep going for a while. Many nairs -- such as Mario's -- linger on for quite some time, and come out quickly. Care to explain what makes this case different?

So now you need a dedicated move to grab the gems?

No. If you had read the moveset (I will not discuss this further until you do so), you'd probably know what I was referring to here. In said moveset, the side special has Shovel Knight dash forwards at high speeds after a brief startup period. It can damage enemies, knock around gem sacks, et cetera, but it's also good for covering a large area quickly. To pick up a gem, Shovel Knight simply needs to make contact with it. Side special is a good tool for collecting the gems, as it helps him cover that large area without taking too much time, and gives him a hitbox to cover himself.

Samus gets walked over because she needs to sit still and charge. SK has to move rather predictably to even use the move,

I don't see how he has to move all that predictably. He could just go one or two gems at a time, which is fairly quick.

and then if the character can camp at all SK can't even use the money bags because they don't have any reason to get close to them. Pac's trampoline and hydrant work because you don't want him getting a key. Duck Hunt's can and Junior's Mechakoopa chases you across the stage. SK can pelt rocks at you.

I'd say that the incentive to penetrate Shovel Knight's defenses would be to keep him from collecting gems. Either way, Shovel Knight could always take the offensive himself with moves like side special and such.

If the move does have massive range then you need to get in deep to get them, but if SK's good at that then you have another Shiek. If it lacks range, then he can get the gems but gets stomped by anybody with decent projectiles.

I don't see how projectiles are a death sentence to Shovel Knight specifically. Many other characters without projectiles seem to do just fine.

The deeper we dig the bigger the problems become, it seems.

I have to admit, that was a pretty great pun.

 

[LancerStaff]

Correct, it doesn't have the same "ring." However, it also doesn't have the same definition. I hate to get into semantics here, but it seems like that's what it's come to. "Ballot" is essentially a synonym for "vote" -- or a method of voting -- the definition of which is, "a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice." The key word here is "choice." We the fans are voting in the ballot, so we the fans are making the choice. The very naming of the project directly implies this.

Probably because you didn't read the moveset.

I just felt it fit as an up smash, and fit in with the whole shovel theme.

First off, I'll just say that I'm not the best at balancing this sort of thing (and that not being able to actually playtest anything doesn't help much). With that said, I don't see what's so broken about a move that you can keep going for a while. Many nairs -- such as Mario's -- linger on for quite some time, and come out quickly. Care to explain what makes this case different?

No. If you had read the moveset (I will not discuss this further until you do so), you'd probably know what I was referring to here. In said moveset, the side special has Shovel Knight dash forwards at high speeds after a brief startup period. It can damage enemies, knock around gem sacks, et cetera, but it's also good for covering a large area quickly. To pick up a gem, Shovel Knight simply needs to make contact with it. Side special is a good tool for collecting the gems, as it helps him cover that large area without taking too much time, and gives him a hitbox to cover himself.

I don't see how he has to move all that predictably. He could just go one or two gems at a time, which is fairly quick.

I'd say that the incentive to penetrate Shovel Knight's defenses would be to keep him from collecting gems. Either way, Shovel Knight could always take the offensive himself with moves like side special and such.

I don't see how projectiles are a death sentence to Shovel Knight specifically. Many other characters without projectiles seem to do just fine.

I have to admit, that was a pretty great pun.

Which leads back to my first point... Nothing's stopping them from picking the "best" character rather then the most popular one. They'll still be popular of course, but maybe not the most popular on the ballot. We still couldn't argue with Nintendo.

Still not seeing it.

Mario's Nair only lasts so long. Link's Dair also only lasts so long. SK's pogo can be cancelled into something else, doesn't ever need to reset momentum like Brawl TL or Greninja do after pogos, and bounces opponents up into yet another pogo. If you're going to keep the canceling his other aerials have to suck, like Mac damage and Link Dair endlag. Otherwise he gets an infinitely long lasting anti-anti-air disjoint and normal aerials. No momentum reset along with lasting forever, and you can rise through dodging opponents and hit them on the way back down.

Like most other charging moves it's highly prone to shield grabs and doesn't work for actually getting in whatsoever. Bike and Clown Car dash only work because they can be cancelled and have their own properties making them safer... Not entirely safe, mind you. If SK can get in remotely safely in FFAs he'd be unstoppable in 1v1. If it were balanced for 1v1 then his entire gem mechanic would fail in FFAs.

I don't see any trapping characters who can't force an approach. It's like giving a rushdown character poor movement... Discounting it's other problems, his dash move wouldn't force an approach, he'd be approaching himself. There's still no way to get an opponent into the trap.

If Shulk stands still and presses B twice, you know he's going to attempt to "rushdown" you. Pretty much kills the character, really. Assuming the money bags are relevant, collecting gems would be important for SK. You now know he'll be where the gems are, and plan accordingly. If he doesn't go for the gems... What can he do? Throw more at you in a feeble attempt to get them to move? Again, Chef doesn't exactly do much for forcing approaches, as it's actually for stopping approaches. Most other projectiles outdo it in evey way. If they didn't, why camp with anybody but SK?

There's just holes after holes after holes... Seriously though, it's pretty disfunctional so far. You need a fair way to get the gems and a way to get the opponent to interact with the money bag, namely. Having something more in-line with the character for the Fspecial and honestly Uspecial would be a priority also.

 

[Munomario777]

Which leads back to my first point... Nothing's stopping them from picking the "best" character rather then the most popular one. They'll still be popular of course, but maybe not the most popular on the ballot. We still couldn't argue with Nintendo.

Which leads me back to one of my earlier points. For Nintendo, the best choice and the most popular choice are one in the same (once again barring unrealistic choices). If more people voted for King K. Rool, then more people are likely to purchase King K. Rool. Ergo, more profit for Nintendo.

Still not seeing it.

I'll sum it up at the end of this post, after replying to your points.

Mario's Nair only lasts so long. Link's Dair also only lasts so long.

Unless you repeatedly use the move.

SK's pogo can be cancelled into something else, doesn't ever need to reset momentum like Brawl TL or Greninja do after pogos, and bounces opponents up into yet another pogo. If you're going to keep the canceling his other aerials have to suck, like Mac damage and Link Dair endlag. Otherwise he gets an infinitely long lasting anti-anti-air disjoint and normal aerials. No momentum reset along with lasting forever, and you can rise through dodging opponents and hit them on the way back down.

The thing that makes this a bit more balanced -- not sure if I've mentioned it here yet -- is the fact that the opponent can DI away from Shovel Knight. He'll need to chase their DI to follow up on a bounce, which requires either great reflexes or some good reads. It's rather difficult to pull off, but rewarding if one manages to do so.

Like most other charging moves it's highly prone to shield grabs and doesn't work for actually getting in whatsoever. Bike and Clown Car dash only work because they can be cancelled and have their own properties making them safer... Not entirely safe, mind you.

You seem to have missed the fact that the dash can be canceled into a jump.

If SK can get in remotely safely in FFAs he'd be unstoppable in 1v1. If it were balanced for 1v1 then his entire gem mechanic would fail in FFAs.

I don't really balance for FFAs that much; I'm mostly interested in how characters play out in one-on-one matches.

I don't see any trapping characters who can't force an approach. It's like giving a rushdown character poor movement... Discounting it's other problems, his dash move wouldn't force an approach, he'd be approaching himself. There's still no way to get an opponent into the trap.

You could always bring the trap to the opponent, by dashing forwards and then making a gem bag near them. He can force an approach, though, as I'll get into in a second.

If Shulk stands still and presses B twice, you know he's going to attempt to "rushdown" you. Pretty much kills the character, really. Assuming the money bags are relevant, collecting gems would be important for SK. You now know he'll be where the gems are, and plan accordingly. If he doesn't go for the gems... What can he do? Throw more at you in a feeble attempt to get them to move? Again, Chef doesn't exactly do much for forcing approaches, as it's actually for stopping approaches. Most other projectiles outdo it in evey way. If they didn't, why camp with anybody but SK?

What can Shovel Knight do without going straight for the gems, you ask? Well, he could lure the opponent into the gems, only to either strike with his own attack or block the opponent's attack. The gems force approaches, because if the opponent doesn't approach, Shovel Knight gains access to a very powerful tool. The gems fall pretty close to Shovel Knight, having a Chef-like trajectory, so opponents will have to approach within a rather short range to prevent him from getting them. If they fail, then Shovel Knight gains a potent combo tool, can KO with twice the knockback force, has some semblance of a decent recovery, can protect himself with what's essentially a wall, and gains higher ground. By being a projectile that benefits Shovel Knight rather than harming the opponent, the gem digging forces approaches in a way unique to Smash Brothers.

There's just holes after holes after holes... Seriously though, it's pretty disfunctional so far. You need a fair way to get the gems and a way to get the opponent to interact with the money bag, namely. Having something more in-line with the character for the Fspecial and honestly Uspecial would be a priority also.

I don't see how these moves aren't in-line with the character. Side Special is based on one of Shovel Knight's core character traits: his bravery. He'll rush headlong into battle, not afraid of anyone who may stand in his way. It takes great courage to dash into an enemy's face, let alone armed with a shovel. It also aids his gameplay, so there's that.

As for Up Special, it's more to aid the gameplay. A weak recovery has Shovel Knight rely more on the gem sacks and his signature pogo bounce. Although, I have since discovered that I coincidentally mimicked the Propeller Dagger, which essentially does the same thing but sideways, and with a dagger instead of a shovel. I chose to exclude the relics from the moveset because I wanted to focus on the core of what Shovel Knight is about -- being a knight with a shovel -- rather than tacking on a bunch of references.

As for the playstyle, he's basically about luring opponents over by digging up gems, and then going in for the kill with his various up-close options. He'll need to mix up going for the gems and luring opponents over, as while luring opponents over with gems is an effective strategy, he doesn't fare very well without having some gems available to make sacks out of. That's the basic gist of what I'm going for here.

 

[Fire_Voyager]

I like your idea, but I think the Moveset should use the Relics, I mean, in the game, you use almost all your arsenal of weapons, or at least I use them all...
The shovel could be all of the normal moves, but the Specials should be the relics, like the Megaman Moveset...
something like:
B: Chaos Sphere: Like the move you said, but it will launch a green ball of CHAOS... nah... it might be a bouncing projectile (and sometimes an Alchemy Coin that deals more damage)
UpB: Propeller Dagger: It might fly diagonally instead of horizontally
DownB: Fire Wand: It shoots a fast fireball
SideB: Dust Knucles: Punching not so hard, but repeatedly if you keep pressing B...
Or something like that... =P

 

[Munomario777]

I like your idea, but I think the Moveset should use the Relics, I mean, in the game, you use almost all your arsenal of weapons, or at least I use them all...
The shovel could be all of the normal moves, but the Specials should be the relics, like the Megaman Moveset...
something like:
B: Chaos Sphere: Like the move you said, but it will launch a green ball of CHAOS... nah... it might be a bouncing projectile (and sometimes an Alchemy Coin that deals more damage)
UpB: Propeller Dagger: It might fly diagonally instead of horizontally
DownB: Fire Wand: It shoots a fast fireball
SideB: Dust Knucles: Punching not so hard, but repeatedly if you keep pressing B...
Or something like that... =P

Thing is, the relics aren't really what makes Shovel Knight unique. Chaos Sphere is just a Mario fireball, Propeller Dagger is a rather generic recovery move (like I'm one to talk...), Fire Wand is just a projectile, and Dust Knuckles are just generic punches. Using the relics just leads to a generic hodgepodge of references instead of an actual cohesive, unique moveset. The thing that makes Shovel Knight stand out is his shovel and what he does with it, so that's what I focused on in my moveset. There's already enough unique potential in the shovel itself, no need to slap on a bunch of side items.

 

[Fire_Voyager]

Thing is, the relics aren't really what makes Shovel Knight unique. Chaos Sphere is just a Mario fireball, Propeller Dagger is a rather generic recovery move (like I'm one to talk...), Fire Wand is just a projectile, and Dust Knuckles are just generic punches. Using the relics just leads to a generic hodgepodge of references instead of an actual cohesive, unique moveset. The thing that makes Shovel Knight stand out is his shovel and what he does with it, so that's what I focused on in my moveset. There's already enough unique potential in the shovel itself, no need to slap on a bunch of side items.

Yeah, but just like Megaman or Ryu, I will feel better if it plays just like it plays in the original game, they might be "generic" attacks (I don't think that they are that generic), but I don't think SK needs a made up moveset that isn't like he is in the games at all... it might be creative, and I give you props for it, but I prefer that his moveset plays like he is in his game...

 

[LancerStaff]

Which leads me back to one of my earlier points. For Nintendo, the best choice and the most popular choice are one in the same (once again barring unrealistic choices). If more people voted for King K. Rool, then more people are likely to purchase King K. Rool. Ergo, more profit for Nintendo.

I'll sum it up at the end of this post, after replying to your points.

Unless you repeatedly use the move.

The thing that makes this a bit more balanced -- not sure if I've mentioned it here yet -- is the fact that the opponent can DI away from Shovel Knight. He'll need to chase their DI to follow up on a bounce, which requires either great reflexes or some good reads. It's rather difficult to pull off, but rewarding if one manages to do so.

You seem to have missed the fact that the dash can be canceled into a jump.

I don't really balance for FFAs that much; I'm mostly interested in how characters play out in one-on-one matches.

You could always bring the trap to the opponent, by dashing forwards and then making a gem bag near them. He can force an approach, though, as I'll get into in a second.

What can Shovel Knight do without going straight for the gems, you ask? Well, he could lure the opponent into the gems, only to either strike with his own attack or block the opponent's attack. The gems force approaches, because if the opponent doesn't approach, Shovel Knight gains access to a very powerful tool. The gems fall pretty close to Shovel Knight, having a Chef-like trajectory, so opponents will have to approach within a rather short range to prevent him from getting them. If they fail, then Shovel Knight gains a potent combo tool, can KO with twice the knockback force, has some semblance of a decent recovery, can protect himself with what's essentially a wall, and gains higher ground. By being a projectile that benefits Shovel Knight rather than harming the opponent, the gem digging forces approaches in a way unique to Smash Brothers.

I don't see how these moves aren't in-line with the character. Side Special is based on one of Shovel Knight's core character traits: his bravery. He'll rush headlong into battle, not afraid of anyone who may stand in his way. It takes great courage to dash into an enemy's face, let alone armed with a shovel. It also aids his gameplay, so there's that.

As for Up Special, it's more to aid the gameplay. A weak recovery has Shovel Knight rely more on the gem sacks and his signature pogo bounce. Although, I have since discovered that I coincidentally mimicked the Propeller Dagger, which essentially does the same thing but sideways, and with a dagger instead of a shovel. I chose to exclude the relics from the moveset because I wanted to focus on the core of what Shovel Knight is about -- being a knight with a shovel -- rather than tacking on a bunch of references.

As for the playstyle, he's basically about luring opponents over by digging up gems, and then going in for the kill with his various up-close options. He'll need to mix up going for the gems and luring opponents over, as while luring opponents over with gems is an effective strategy, he doesn't fare very well without having some gems available to make sacks out of. That's the basic gist of what I'm going for here.

That's incorrect. Votes do not mean much if anything for sales. The reality is that many of these fan favorites on the polls are highly obscure to the average Nintendo fan today, K. Rool and Issac in particular. Not every kid knows about the ballot... A Pokemon or a Sonic character would sell quadruple, and a character with an appealing design and moveset would also sell much more then another Marth or a doofy Bowser lookalike. They're not characters people instantly love like Little Mac or Pit, and they're not recognizable like Bowser Junior or Meta Knight were. Sakurai pretty much has his finger on the pulse of what is and will be popular with Smash fans.

Mario's Nair has startup, endlag, and lacks any real priority.

DI is only right when struck, and not a moment later. People have enough of a problem with pogo moves already...

Yes, and Bike and Clown Car have other options too as to not be complete shieldgrab fodder.

Which is a rather large problem... That's not how characters are made.

Doesn't work if he's getting interrupted by projectiles. SK still isn't actually getting them in the trap, only nearby. He can backthrow, which would be painfully obvious.

Since the trap fails as a trap and he lacks a way to force an approach, we're left with a slowish but powerful swordsman... Pretty much what Chrom was supposed to be.

Charge is just a generic move, though. What the move is and does matters more then what it represents. I don't mind generic Uspecials so much because they're necessary.

The biggest problem with the whole idea is the core. Being able to balance getting the gems with how effective the money bags are supposed to be is a fine line; perhaps too much for Smash with it's diverse roster.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, but just like Megaman or Ryu, I will feel better if it plays just like it plays in the original game, they might be "generic" attacks (I don't think that they are that generic), but I don't think SK needs a made up moveset that isn't like he is in the games at all... it might be creative, and I give you props for it, but I prefer that his moveset plays like he is in his game...

In his game, Shovel Knight is a knight with a shovel. I'm making a moveset for the character, not the game. The relics are an aspect of the latter -- they don't define Shovel Knight as a character. Here's something I wrote up in another thread regarding this:

. We all know the guy. He's clumsy, awkward, and yet strangely charming. His most prominent starring role is in the Luigi's Mansion series, where he uses the Poltergust a lot. So you'd think that he'd use it a lot in Smash, right? Wrong. It's just a Final Smash. Why? Here's why.

Aside from the fact that Smash 64 came out before Luigi's Mansion -- sorta irrelevant I suppose since they've changed Luigi a bunch as-is, but I digress -- the Poltergust is in no way Luigi's central theme as a character. Luigi's theme is being clumsy, awkward, and yet likeable all the way through. That's Luigi. That's his core theme. And that's what Smash plays off of beautifully. His animations, his movement, his recovery, his hitbox placement, everything about him is just... awkward, but if players master this awkwardness, then great things can come of it. Heck, he's pretty high on the tiers right now. (inb4 patch) Having the Poltergust as a central theme would, at this point, either A) take away from Luigi's theme of being awkward, or B) make the set lose focus by trying -- and likely failing -- to focus on two different core themes at once, which just doesn't work most of the time.

For Shovel Knight, the relics are his Poltergust, and his shovel stuff is his awkwardness.

That and the relics don't really cover any ground; the concepts that they explore are already used by other fighters.

That's incorrect. Votes do not mean much if anything for sales. The reality is that many of these fan favorites on the polls are highly obscure to the average Nintendo fan today, K. Rool and Issac in particular. Not every kid knows about the ballot... A Pokemon or a Sonic character would sell quadruple, and a character with an appealing design and moveset would also sell much more then another Marth or a doofy Bowser lookalike. They're not characters people instantly love like Little Mac or Pit, and they're not recognizable like Bowser Junior or Meta Knight were. Sakurai pretty much has his finger on the pulse of what is and will be popular with Smash fans.

What factor, exactly, would make people vote for characters that they'd be less likely to purchase? And what incentive would Nintendo have to create a ballot that they're going to completely ignore the results from, let alone mislead their consumer base with?

Mario's Nair has startup, endlag, and lacks any real priority.

I never said that the pogo bounce had any real priority. I may go and clarify that, though.

DI is only right when struck, and not a moment later. People have enough of a problem with pogo moves already...

Then I'll give the move more hitlag, to allow for more time to DI.

Yes, and Bike and Clown Car have other options too as to not be complete shieldgrab fodder.

Like how Shovel Knight can jump out of the move, then free to attack, retreat, or defend depending on what the situation calls for?

Which is a rather large problem... That's not how characters are made.

Of course; if Sakurai-San were designing the character, he'd naturally balance it for FFAs as well. However, I have more of an interest in designing for one-on-one battles personally, so that's what I do.

Doesn't work if he's getting interrupted by projectiles.

Perhaps the side special could go through projectiles, then; perhaps having some sort of armor against projectiles.

SK still isn't actually getting them in the trap, only nearby. He can backthrow, which would be painfully obvious.

The gem sacks aren't really a trap that you'd try to get opponents "into;" I'm not sure what you mean by that. They're simply something that he can place on the stage to aid his strategies; for instance, bouncing opponents off of them to combo or KO.

Since the trap fails as a trap and he lacks a way to force an approach, we're left with a slowish but powerful swordsman... Pretty much what Chrom was supposed to be.

The gem sacks aren't supposed to be a "trap" in the first place, and the gems seem like enough of an incentive to approach. If not, he always has his own approaching options.

Charge is just a generic move, though. What the move is and does matters more then what it represents.

While this does stray a bit from the "in-character" point you were originally making here, I do agree with that mindset -- although both are important. That's why I gave Charge a purpose in the moveset -- it allows him to pick up gems quickly, allows him to approach, knocks gem bags around, et cetera, and all of these functions tie into the rest of the playstyle. A generic move is generic on its own, but if it ties into a playstyle in a unique way, then the generic-ness of the move isn't the worst thing in the world. I mean, Mario is almost nothing but generic moves, but the moveset is still solid and rather unique.

I don't mind generic Uspecials so much because they're necessary.

Fair enough.

The biggest problem with the whole idea is the core. Being able to balance getting the gems with how effective the money bags are supposed to be is a fine line; perhaps too much for Smash with it's diverse roster.

I like to be fairly ambitious with my movesets; tackling rather out-there concepts. To me, a cool, fun idea is worth it even if I can't balance it quite right, as it's fun to experiment with new ideas. That said, a balanced set is better than an imbalanced one.

 

[Manic Rykker]

That's incorrect. Votes do not mean much if anything for sales. The reality is that many of these fan favorites on the polls are highly obscure to the average Nintendo fan today, K. Rool and Issac in particular. Not every kid knows about the ballot... A Pokemon or a Sonic character would sell quadruple, and a character with an appealing design and moveset would also sell much more then another Marth or a doofy Bowser lookalike. They're not characters people instantly love like Little Mac or Pit, and they're not recognizable like Bowser Junior or Meta Knight were. Sakurai pretty much has his finger on the pulse of what is and will be popular with Smash fans.

Since my response to this is kinda long, I'll just put it in spoilers.

Spoiler

If Sakurai and Nintendo are really that in sync with the fanbase.. then why are we having this discussion in the first place?

If they REALLY knew what's popular already, and knew what Smash fans want, why did they even start the fan ballot in the first place? They'd be better off just throwing in what they think will sell and calling it a day..

Regardless of the opinion here, this ballot is all about the fan service. Why? Because fan service sells.


Mewtwo - Appeals to Melee fans/mainers who wanted him back, and appeals to those who are just fans of the pokemon in general. (X and Y did revive his popularity a bit after all.)

Lucas - Appeals to mainers, and to Mother fans.

Roy - Appeals to mainers, and Melee fans who wanted him back.

Ryu - Appeals to Street Fighter fans


Save for the last one, all of these characters follow a pattern, despite the fact they are all pre-ballot:
They were all put in due to fan demand. In general, all three of those characters have a profit anchor: They will certainly be of interest to their respective fans. (Save for mewtwo, would kids really be interested in Lucas? He wouldn't be recognizable to kids. He's from an "obscure" finished RPG. Yet, there he is isn't he?)


Don't lie. Would you really want every kid to be aware of this ballot? Kids are not a good source for information... let alone what would make for a good Smash fighter. For that matter, the characters being voted for would be all over the place.. We'd probably be getting serious votes for cartoon characters, off the wall requests.... and god knows what else. If kid's were in charge of what becomes DLC fighters, the line up would probably consist of Freddy Fazbear, Spongebob, Goku, Steve (of Minecraft.. heck, I play Minecraft myself, and even I know that would be a stupid idea -_-), and a Skylander (wouldn't know which one since there are so many of them now XD).

Of course, Nintendo knew that not every little kid was going to be aware of this. They knew there would still be some off the wall requests here and there, but they knew they could count on the Smash fanbase to give them a hands on list of what would be popular, and what would get a lot of interest. They don't need quality control, because they have us. Truly obscure characters won't pick up on the popularity, and will barely be a glint on the ballot radar. Meanwhile, characters that would actually sell will be at the top.

You act as if everyone in this is a bunch of mindless idiots. Every notable campaign is backed in some way. They all have a large fanbase to back them up (as otherwise the campaigns wouldn't be there in the first place), and for that matter, the characters themselves do have means of being unique. (The Bowser-look alike detraction against K. Rool is so bloody common, it's like a disease. Too be honest, that statement is more trollish than it is a valid detraction. Any fan of K. Rool would gladly tell you K. Rool has a big moveset pool, and has several personas to pull from for a unique moveset. Anyway, literally the ONLY reason K. Rool and the kremlings haven't been in any of the latest DKC titles isn't because of obscurity, or irrelevance.. it's because Retro Studios wanted to make their own characters for the new games. Chances are, we probably will see the kremlings again one day.. and when that day comes, that "obscure" detraction won't hold water..)


Fact is, every campaign has a fanbase that adores the character they are campaigning for, and really want to see that character as a fighter.. and of course, definitely wouldn't mind parting with a few bucks to be able to play as their favorite character. If that weren't the case, this Shovel Knight discussion wouldn't exist.

To put it short... by that logic, there shouldn't be a fan ballot in the first place.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

I've been thinking if shovel knight d-air is his pogo jump(which it probably would be) do you think it should/would be a spiking move?

 

[Munomario777]

I've been thinking if shovel knight d-air is his pogo jump(which it probably would be) do you think it should/would be a spiking move?

In the moveset I wrote up, the pogo bounce is a sort of comboing move. Basically, if you bounce on someone once, you bounce upwards, and they're sent up with you. You can then bounce on them again, but the third bounce sends them straight downwards. The opponent can DI to the left or right, though, so you'll need to react to or predict which way they go to continue the combo.

 

[Graizen]

News for you guys!

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._club_games_the_super_smash_ballot_is_ending/

 

[Wintropy]

While I don't support Shovel Knight, I'm very open to the prospect that he may well be happening; whether I care for the character or not is, in that case, irrelevant, so I'm just gonna go with it if that's what's meant to be.

I don't think he's guaranteed, but with recent events and everything being up in the air, I don't think I'd be too surprised if was confirmed.

I don't want to be added to the supporters list; I don't want to say I support him just because there's a chance he may get in. That'd be hypocritical. So I will just say, if he's in - well done, I'm happy for you guys. If he isn't, well, that's as may be.

I'm saying this for the record, so I know where I stand before the penny drops. Hope it goes well! :3

 

[Reila]

News for you guys!

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._club_games_the_super_smash_ballot_is_ending/

The way they are acting on twitter is really fishy. I don't fully believe Shovel Knight is in Smash, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is announced later today.

 

[Megadoomer]

I'm pretty sure they're just saying that because, like most Nintendo fans, they're fans of Smash Bros. and want to find out who will be included. I'd like to see Shovel Knight in the game, but I wouldn't put much stock into a Twitter comment like that. (it's like that time where someone from Platinum Games or Monolith Soft retweeted the announcement that turned out to be for Robin and Lucina)

 

[Serell]

>Shovel Knight practically unknown in Japan
>Amiibos impossible to find in America

whole amiibo thing doesn't make sense to me but hey, cool

 

[Wintropy]

I'm pretty sure they're just saying that because, like most Nintendo fans, they're fans of Smash Bros. and want to find out who will be included. I'd like to see Shovel Knight in the game, but I wouldn't put much stock into a Twitter comment like that. (it's like that time where someone from Platinum Games or Monolith Soft retweeted the announcement that turned out to be for Robin and Lucina)

It's good hype generation, yeah, but when you compare it to Wayforward's call for final votes to be submitted, it seems...weirdly easy-going.

I won't claim it means anything, but considering how coy Yacht Club have been recently, I don't think I'd be surprised.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So what are your thoughts on SK chances now?

 

[Wintropy]

So what are your thoughts on SK chances now?

About the same as it's been since the beginning, i.e. not high.

I won't be surprised if it does happen, but I don't think there's a good chance of it happening in the first place.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

So what are your thoughts on SK chances now?

eh the same as i always had pretty good

 

[Reila]

So what are your thoughts on SK chances now?

Nothing has changed. If SK isn't announced until November at latest, I think it's fake. Until then...

 

[Munomario777]

Nothing has changed. If SK isn't announced until November at latest, I think it's fake. Until then...

What's fake? You mean that Runbow "leak?" That was confirmed fake by the creator(s), IIRC.

 

[Reila]

What's fake? You mean that Runbow "leak?" That was confirmed fake by the creator(s), IIRC.

No... I have no idea what a Runbow leak is.

Whatishisname said Shovel Knight would probably be announced between October and November iirc. His "leak" still wasn't debunked, but if he Shovel Knight isn't announced in that time frame, I will see no reasons to keep considering the possibility of the leak being legit.

 

[Munomario777]

No... I have no idea what a Runbow leak is.

Whatishisname said Shovel Knight would probably be announced between October and November iirc. His "leak" still wasn't debunked, but if he Shovel Knight isn't announced in that time frame, I will see no reasons to keep considering the possibility of the leak being legit.

What else has he accurately foretold?

 

[Reila]

What else has he accurately foretold?

Nothing as far as I know. lol

I am not really trying to hype things up around here, my point is that there's still hope for Shovel Knight.

 

[Munomario777]

Nothing as far as I know. lol

I am not really trying to hype things up around here, my point is that there's still hope for Shovel Knight.

Not sure why we should believe anything he says, then.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

What else has he accurately foretold?

i'm surprised you haven't heard of it.Especially with Push,Neo, and multiple of outside sources are backing his claim

 

[JaidynReiman]

i'm surprised you haven't heard of it.Especially with Push,Neo, and multiple of outside sources are backing his claim

They're only backing his claim in the sense that they think its possibly true.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

They're only backing his claim in the sense that they think its possibly true.

should probably state i dont believe the rumor and dont think others should either.I dont trust tama as far as i could throw him the only reason i'm giving the time of day is because push has faith in it and there's more than 1 source saying that shovel knight is coming.Tbh i think shovel knight can be DLC because i have indie bias not because of some dumb rumor

 

[JaidynReiman]

should probably state i dont believe the rumor and dont think others should either.I dont trust tama as far as i could throw him the only reason i'm giving the time of day is because push has faith in it and there's more than 1 source saying that shovel knight is coming.Tbh i think shovel knight can be DLC because i have indie bias not because of some dumb rumor

Its one source. All of them are saying they don't see anything to doubt the source in question, but its only one source that has said this.