Let's rate Mii... with a twist. Instead of making my own arguments up from scratch, I'll be responding to good old Big Axle's comments. Also, I'll be keeping it plain--no Ace Attorney today. You want to fire a Logic Bullet? I hope you're ready for my return fire. My arguments are ready to roll, so... pick a god and pray.
And don't take it personally that I'm quoting your post; your post was extremely thorough and you brought up pretty much all major points on both sides of the arguments. You're presenting evidence and interpreting it one way; I'll just read your evidence and give my different interpretation.
BigAxle said:
-The NeoGAF E3 Leak has been indeed disproven and is technically dead. It has not been revived just because of Little Mac’s inclusion. He was indeed fully obviously going to appear as many sites, places and the like heavily expected him and was not surprised that he was included. The fact that this is indeed a “correct leak” is effectively makes it null and void; until the game releases, much like the ChaosZero leak of old, you cannot effectively and correctly say that without a hint of doubt it’s 100% true. It does not work as effective evidence alone here.
-Just because someone gets a single prediction right doesn’t mean the rest are right as well. I’ve told you many times before there are the people who looked left field and saw WFT coming. It’s not too surprising. Everyone counts it as right because of this, but this isn’t exactly evidence. Anything can practically predicted given you take the right perspective. In fact, it’s likely this guy was given the actual info and then he attempted to throw people off. But it explicitly stated E3 2013. Not 2014, not another E3. Don’t twist a disproven leak for ratings here. I’ve had it with this leak still lingering and I’m downright fed up with people believing that he must be right. People predicted WFT, end of story; it doesn’t change everything, goodbye.
I agree with part of this, yet I also disagree with part of this. I can't say for certain that the leak is real, but I do find it credible enough to warrant giving the characters involved a slight boost to their chances. Predicting such characters would be difficult (yet not impossible), but that is not the only thing going for the leak. Sal Romano is a respected journalist, and a successful leaker for another franchise (was it Street Fighter? I forget for the moment) has verified that the source that sent the predictions to Sal had an opportunity to see the game. Additionally, this game doesn't seem to be entirely airtight with regards to holding onto information; the Palutena leak is one I do believe (whereas this one I merely am 50/50), and its existence shows that it's possible for information to leak.
Overall, I think this leak would boost Mii's chances to a respectable amount were he otherwise low in chance... but he really doesn't need a boost. As things currently stand, I think I'll agree with you--this leak is not the major chance saver that some people are making it out to be. It's only the icing on the top for a probable character--this situation is no different from Little Mac's before the Direct.
BigAxle said:
Alright… LOGIC BULLET ENGAGE. Because you knew this was coming. I'm known for crazy large posts and this was no exception.
There are a few things going for the Mii. I’ll be clean and list these first. You know, to keep order, right? Like Pros and Cons.
-The Mii is the mascot of the Wii series. Nuff said. Massive sales of games with them, they are the Mario of casual consumers.
-The Mii is designed in similar terms to Mario of concept. They are designed to reach all audiences of Nintendo and intend to connect the hardcore Nintendo gamers and the more casual consumers. Unfortunately, while the audiences don’t always receive it well, it’s certainly a better effort that what is seen in Microsoft’s avatars. As a result, they are one of Nintendo’s biggest items. They appear in a variety of games, often can be used to represent profiles or various Easter eggs in games (Mario Galaxy, Brawl, Prime Trilogy) or on a more casual consumer scale, player characters (Wii Sports, Wii Sports Resort) though this is seldom seen in games specifically oriented towards hardcore gamers. With Super Smash Bros for Wii U & 3DS, they are approaching this in a best of both worlds way, quite literally: The game speed is a fusion of Brawl & Melee, the game is a tad more combo oriented than Brawl, etc.
-Customization element is likely to go to these if they are in. But the issue is this proves a massive problem as well, a serious double edged sword. It may be incredibly unique, but it poses a big problem.
Allow me to interject right here, please. I'm afraid you've forgotten one of Mii's biggest selling points--
popularity. Yes, Mii is despised by the more "dedicated" of Smash fans. But we must also remember that we are not the only ones who play the game--a large number of the people who are going to buy the game aren't frequenting Smash boards, yet that makes their desires no less real than ours. This is a crowd who was introduced to the series through Brawl, a crowd that probably has no idea who King K. Rool and Takmaru are, a crowd that demands Mii and third-party characters above pretty much anyone else. While Sakurai will and should cater to the fans who get more mileage out of his games (us), he also must take into consideration the large base of customers who aren't so speculative. And, really, who else would he use for this role? Shadow the Hedgehog?
You did touch on it, but something I must also emphasize is how important Miis have become to Nintendo. They're not just avatars used as icons for online play. Games upon games upon games feature them. There is the obvious Wii Series which centers around them, but then you must also consider series like Pilotwings have been redesigned with Miis in mind. As if that's not enough, they have Nintendoland, Mario, and Animal Crossing in their sights, too.
Yesterday I said that Meowth was pretty much the most iconic Nintendo character that never made it into Smash, barring perhaps Toad. I forgot someone: Mii. This avatar has become more famous than
anything the company has produced, excluding only Mario and Pikachu.
BigAxle said:
Now we shall cover some issues. These do indeed exist and some easy legal waver is not going to be the solution.
-Possibilities of legality troubles and using likeness of other people will cause issues. In Europe, many games have been banned for having any references to The Third Reich in any manner or anything resembling the Nazi Party, user content can constitute as such, as it does not do anything against a user creating said Mii. Seriously, this could prove to be a big hurdle because people will go online and fight with Miis that not only can be likeness of other characters, but offensive material as well (The Mii Maker can easily be manipulated to create phallic imagery). To moderate this would require a constantly active team of moderators or reports that would likely integrate Miiverse, which not everyone actually uses. As a result, it’s possible that Nintendo may judge it’s too much of a double edged sword and may say no. Banning it from online does not really change much either. Tourneys will still see these, and I mean casual tourneys. Not casual consumer ones. But you may say that Pokémon X & Y uses a system of banning users, but it’s actually just automated. It checks if the user has an illegitimate move set, is using Mega Lati@site (as it’s not fully released yet) or if the Pokémon has an illegitimate ability. Only if one of those conditions is met the user is banned. The system cannot tell with something like a Mii unless explicitly by name of the Mii, but a smart user could use 1337, or other syntactical manipulation.
I agree with you here. This may be the single biggest thing holding Mii out, in my opinion. Nintendo would have to design some sort of Mii sensoring system or some kind of workaround to include them in online play, and that makes them someone who'd be pretty difficult to include. However, knowing Nintendo, they would find a fix if they needed to... and probably fail at doing so.
This point alone brings Mii down quite a bit for me. I actually see it as the only major problem against their inclusion. Your other points I won't let slide so easily.
BigAxle said:
-Customization is possibly broken. Sure, it’s unique, but how about I pull an example of a customization fighter with good limits? Emerl from Sonic Battle could use the attacks of opponents by battling them and adding them to his memory. As a result, you literally programmed his move set within limits. However, this ended up becoming insanely broken as the stat increases made him better than every fighter. This very well could happen with Mii; the right combination could be worse than MK, and he’d no doubt be banned in many tourneys. But on Nintendo, Sakurai has made it a point to balance out the cast, Brawl- style: He’s taking individual elements and putting people on the level of MK from what we have seen. Having something like this can easily break that mold and matchups would be a nightmare and cause heavy time consumption. And we know Sakurai.
-Making a Mii restrictive to one move set is also very strange and against the Mii itself. These are purely about customization. Making a move set that is only for Miis but having the partial customization of a custom head is very contradictory, something Sakurai wouldn’t do.
How would making a Mii restricted to a more limited moveset be against the Mii itself? In many (perhaps even the majority) of Mii's appearences, they have all played identical to one another--most of the time, customization of Miis is restricted to their faces and minor other details. Having a completely customized moveset is definitely not necessary for Mii to be battle ready, but it
is an obvious choice to make them unique.
Non-requisite potential for a customizable moveset can't hurt them--it can only help them.
What you clearly don't understand is what people see in the appeal of Miis. Many of the supporters don't really care if they'd be customizable--they probably have never even thought of such a thing. People want to play as Miis because they want to see themselves--their actual selves--fight a group of Nintendo All-Stars. People like you and me are probably hoping for a K. Rool and Ridley grudge match, but a great deal of Mii's supporters just want to go in and pit themselves against Bowser to save the day.
BigAxle said:
-Just because Sakurai went back on his words with the Villager doesn’t mean he’s doing it with Mii. Enough. Things can’t be proven with one exception.
...what words are there to go back on? I don't remember him saying much of anything about them before. Also, even if he did say something before Brawl, the picture of Nintendo has changed in the last half-decade. Miis have become ubiquitous; their situation has changed entirely! It would actually be somewhat strange for Sakurai to think the same of Miis even though their role has completely changed.
What your words do bring to my mind that may hurt Miis is SUKAPON. Remember how Sakurai rejected Sukapon around Melee? Wasn't it something to do with difficulty programming detachable limbs? I don't think such a thing necessarily hurts Mii too much (it was an old quote about different hardware with a less-experienced team and a less-important character), but it is worth noting.
BigAxle said:
-Villager is already a character that represents the literal persona of the player. Having another is redundant.
Oh, come now. Villager is the persona the player takes while playing Animal Crossing. That's completely different from the persona the player takes when playing the Wii Series; although they have the same blank-slate personality, the characters are designed differently and do completely different things.
..one thing that does stand out here and does make me drop my Mii score--the Mii Mask. In the Animal Crossing franchise, you can turn Villager's face into that of your Mii's. This would negate the need for including Mii as a seperate character,
and it would negate the Wi-Fi problem--just disable Mii Mask on Wi-Fi. Also, this could explain why Villager has Boxing Gloves and a Bowling Ball--he is not just a Villager, but also a Mii.
BigAxle said:
-Final Point: Mii has absolutely no personality, charm or anything of the sort. Unlike every character from Smash. Yes, even ROB and G&W have some charm. As a result, having no custom moveset literally gives it no real unique quality.
I said no Ace Attorney, but I could't help it. Just because you don't see the potential in a character doesn't mean that others cannot. Miis have the personality of the player--they can be assigned whatever charm and story that the player wants. Take for example what Miis are to me:
I personally like Miis and Wuhu Island. No, I don't want Miis in my Smash because they don't have that coolness factor that so many potential newcomers have. Even so, I can still see the charm behind the characters: they're a happy tribe of people living in an island paradise. They're easily excited over the slightest things, like sports and competitions. Their little world is so peaceful and serene; it's not about good versus evil, dark versus light... it's about an island of people who enjoy having fun.
Heck, even if the Miis were absolutely soulless creatures, it wouldn't mater. Smash doesn't require an abundance of personality... a good half-dozen of the characters got in with very little to spare.
BigAxle said:
OVERALL RATING: 25%- If anyone wants to refute me, I’ll pass. I think my rating has been mostly justified as to the cons are very large issues. And don't even think about trying to shove that "leak" down my throat as evidence, please.
Excellent post, sir. I may interpret the evidence differently, but I thank you for such a thorough interpetation. Obviously your score will count as it's just as valid as mine. Heck, as long as you don't say something like, "Dur hur hur K. Rool is owned by Rare and he looks stupid anyway, 0%" or "ladidadada, Miis are the worst thing to happen to Nintendo, so Nintendo would never put them in this game, .01%," you're fine. Many of the posters here go above and beyond the call of duty; you go above and beyond even them, and I appreciate and approve of that.
So now that I've done my discussion:
Mii: 75% chance
Most likely newcomer remaining.
Mii Want: 33%
I like Miis in Wii Sports Resort and stuff, but I don't really see the draw of playing as yourself in a Smash Bros. title. It's all about All-Star matchups, and I don't think I'm an All-Star. @
Gunla
you nailed this one. I'd prefer that Mii didn't make the cut, and that's even before factoring in how annoying they will be on Wi-Fi. Still, they have solid moveset potential, and I certainly don't dislike Miis, so I'll toss them 33%.
Zael: 2.5%
I highly doubt his game is big enough to get him in, especially since Shulk is a much more requested character from that group of games.
Zael Want: 50%
Epic design. Nothing else to say.
Adam Malkovitch x5
Nomination AUTHORIZED!
YoshiandToad
Top 10 of RTC as an AT? Is that short enough? XD
Groose
Because I want to see Hades again. So I can represent the Hood of Nature again. It's too much fun.
Depressed Gengar
used Thief!
