Project M Social Thread

[bubbaking]

@Private: Doubles and Singles are two totally different things, my good man. In doubles, Kirby becomes viable. In doubles, Falco probably isn't Top Tier anymore. My friend, a Jiggs main, and I predicted the top tier combination of Jiggs and Samus long before Apex 2012 (the first time Hbox and Plup got 2nd). We were completely destroying our university's Melee Doubles PR with that team, resting (pun intended ) at #1 for an extremely long time. It took a double Fox team to move us off.

 

[a vehicle]

You guys.

Fox DThrow to Shine is clearly the best autocombo in the game.

Please be joking

True auto combo for most chars:
Jab -> Jab

 

[bubbaking]

So whoever brought up the spacees and Apex 2013 results (forgot but I think it was KayB):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332658
Spacees took half of top 4, a quarter of top 12, 6 spots of top 16 (3/8, so almost half), and 9 spots of top 24 (3/8 again). That's a pretty large chunk of top placements being taken up by spacees if you ask me. With 336 entrants, there were plenty of chances for diversity, so if this kind of dominance still ended up happening, then I think we can safely conclude that the spacees are dominant in Melee's current metagame.

 

[Beat!]

I don't see what you're trying to say here. ALL "auto combos" have to follow the opponent's DI. Even NTSC Melee Sheik's dthrow > fair/uair followed this simple rule. Same goes for 2.1 Lucario's uthrow > bair. Fox's uthrow > uair is just as bad as the rest of them.

NTSC Sheik's dthrow -> fair/uair isn't an auto combo either (although it's close enough to the point where calling it that wouldn't be completely unreasonable), since, as you said yourself, you still have to follow your opponent's DI. That's what makes a combo non-auto; the fact that it's not 100% execution because you also have to pay attention to other in-game elements (DI, in this case) to make sure that your following hits connect as well. Any combo that, as you put it, "follows this simple rule" is, by definition, not an auto combo.

 

[bubbaking]

^Uh, yeah, that's what I've been saying..... You practically repeated my post but gave it different wording.

The point is that Fox's uthrow > uair is only slightly harder than Sheik's dthrow > fair, so people complaining about one should complain about the other as well. They're both loleasy.

Btw, people on here need to learn to stop taking things literally and look at things in context, myself included.

 

[JCaesar]

So whoever brought up the spacees and Apex 2013 results (forgot but I think it was KayB):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332658
Spacees took half of top 4, a quarter of top 12, 6 spots of top 16 (3/8, so almost half), and 9 spots of top 24 (3/8 again). That's a pretty large chunk of top placements being taken up by spacees if you ask me. With 336 entrants, there were plenty of chances for diversity, so if this kind of dominance still ended up happening, then I think we can safely conclude that the spacees are dominant in Melee's current metagame.

"Almost half" ... 3/8 is just as close to a quarter as it is to a half.

Compare the top 16 of Melee and Brawl at Apex. Spacies are 2 characters taking up 3/8 of the top spots. Metaknight is one character taking up (actually, not almost) 1/2 of the top spots. Now tell me, which one is more dominant?

Side note: In the Project M results, not a single character is represented more than twice even among secondaries. Now that's what I call diversity!

 

[`dazrin]

So whoever brought up the spacees and Apex 2013 results (forgot but I think it was KayB):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332658
Spacees took half of top 4, a quarter of top 12, 6 spots of top 16 (3/8, so almost half), and 9 spots of top 24 (3/8 again). That's a pretty large chunk of top placements being taken up by spacees if you ask me. With 336 entrants, there were plenty of chances for diversity, so if this kind of dominance still ended up happening, then I think we can safely conclude that the spacees are dominant in Melee's current metagame.

Half of top 4, eh?
More like, 2 out of the top 8- and PP didn't even exclusively use falco



edit: Ninja'd by JC. What he said, yo

 

[Beat!]

^Uh, yeah, that's what I've been saying..... You practically repeated my post but gave it different wording.

The point is that Fox's uthrow > uair is only slightly harder than Sheik's dthrow > fair, so people complaining about one should complain about the other as well. They're both loleasy.

Btw, people on here need to learn to stop taking things literally and look at things in context, myself included.

You called them auto combos, which they aren't.


And the point is that people quoted leffen's complaints about 2.5 "auto combos" and made a comparison to Fox's uthrow uair, which I responded to by explaining why that isn't an auto combo.



... whatever, let's drop it. Pointless discussion, really.

 

[bubbaking]

@JCaesar: I never compared Melee's imbalance to vBrawl's here, and I even made a note on the P:M Invitationals results thread on how much variation there was in the P:M tourney. Don't take this as an attack at you guys. I was simply responding to someone's post.

@Daze: PP practically went all Falco. As I pointed out earlier, he only went Marth (his secondary) because he was probably uncomfortable with the Peach MU. If I was including secondary characters in my statements, I would have also included M2K's Fox, which I didn't.

 

[`dazrin]

Two spacies out of top 8 tho

Both of which got demolished by Marth/Peach lol

 

[Sterowent]

You called them auto combos, which they aren't.


And the point is that people quoted leffen's complaints about 2.5 "auto combos" and made a comparison to Fox's uthrow uair, which I responded to by explaining why that isn't an auto combo.



... whatever, let's drop it. Pointless discussion, really.

if this makes the game more akin to melee gameplay, in speed and reward, then any claims to categorize things seemingly arbitrarily is worth talking through. honestly, i prefer many of the changes to 2.5 because of the weakening of gimmicks and the strengthening of normals which translates to much more transparent gameplay, but this issue of auto combos is an important note to avoid while making the transition into stronger normals as a focus. things like pit comboing his dair into itself is a good example of what an auto combo looks like, i think.

 

[bubbaking]

Daze, how are you going to take my statement about 2 of the top 4 and transform it into 2 of the top 8? Which is more important and meaningful? If those spacees got lower than 4th, then it would make sense to bring that up, but they placed 2nd and 4th. You can't just take that and say, "Well, 2 out of 4 = 2 out of 8 too." It's just not practical.

And how did those 2 spacees in top 4 get "demolished" by Marth when one placed 2nd WITHOUT the help of that Marth secondary (which failed him)? Even the one who placed 4th wasn't "demolished" by Marth. He was demolished by M2K. There's a difference. It's like the fact that Armada took 1st with a very non-Top Tier character. Peach isn't that good; Armada is.

 

[Yeroc]

I think the fact that you're even starting to bring up the player behind the character means that the rest of the discussion is largely immaterial.

FWIW, if PP had played the 2nd set the same way he played the 1st, there's no way Armada could have touched him, IMO.

 

[bubbaking]

Then a spacee main would have gotten 1st with a little help from Marth, who was only used because his positive MU against Peach is better and more solid than Falco's positive MU against Peach.

Side note: In the Project M results, not a single character is represented more than twice even among secondaries. Now that's what I call diversity!

Really loving all of that character variation!

So yeah, I agree.

You called them auto combos, which they aren't.

I never called them auto-combos, hence my "quotation marks", but yeah, let's drop it. The bottom line is that certain easy 1-2 strings, especially ones from throws, shouldn't be seen as a bad thing in P:M because there are several Melee chars who have easier, stronger ones.

Edit: Heck, even Samus has some pretty easy 1-2 KO strings at high %'s. Dthrow > nair/Charged Shot on regulars/floaties and uthrow > nair/bair/Charged Shot on FFers.

 

[Deleted member]

umbreon's little quips about it were okay but i would like if it were expanded on a bit

sonic is the fastest

PM has huge stages

he can't get trapped or pinned

position doesn't mean anything to sonic

he chooses when he attacks

he takes what he wants when he wants

nair does like 14% and kills at 100

he's like fox +++ in a game where every character has some auto death combo on fox and is much harder to edge guard than fox

you can't learn to fight him mid-match because he chooses all engagements so playing smart doesn't even matter

in a game based around positioning, the fastest character gets bigger stages to use, can't be trapped, has all the kill power

sonic and his opponents aren't even playing the same game really

even if sonic were horrible, his raw dashdance speed and a basic grab would make him viable. why you guys thought it was okay to make this character good everywhere else is beyond me.

 

[iLink]

Because hitboxes apparently

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic's normals have really good priority.

His specials have lack luster priority, but because of how they're used, that fault makes less of an impact against Sonic.

 

[Deleted member]

priority only matters when moves challenge other moves.

this is not something sonic ever has to worry about.

 

[Hashtag]

Sonic is easily out prioritized, grab range is short (though that doesnt matter too much).

If you stand dodge when he uses homing attack he doesnt lock on to you. Same with Air dodge.

Doesn't have great OoS options. Decent, but not great.

Jabs can stop down/side b special approach he can do. His reach is okay and he is relatively light.

People keep trying to out speed sonic, only a few characters can. Out prioritize him/reach him.

When i think more players realize this, sonic players will be forced to work thtough the holes of their opponent more to avoid being punished.

He's still my favorite game character.

 

[Deleted member]

Out prioritize him/reach him.

this means nothing. like, actually nothing. this is advice i would give to someone i hate.

 

[bubbaking]

His specials, especially his spring, seem like great OoS tools for escaping pressure. His nair seems decent too.

 

[GHNeko]

priority only matters when moves challenge other moves.

this is not something sonic ever has to worry about.

I just said that about his specials lol.

Sonic is easily out prioritized, grab range is short (though that doesnt matter too much).

If you stand dodge when he uses homing attack he doesnt lock on to you. Same with Air dodge.

Doesn't have great OoS options.

Jabs can stop any b special approach he can do. His reach is mediocre and is relatively light.

People keep trying to out speed sonic, only a few characters can. Out prioritize him/reach him.

When i think more players realize this, sonic players will be forced to work thtough the holes of their opponent more to avoid being punished.

He's still my favorite game character.

Grab range is the shortest in the demo as of now, but that is negated with his JC Grab.

You dont have to air dodge. A simple roll or spot dodge work as well.

I hope you're talking about clanking. And even then that's only on the ground. A decent amount of jabs lose to aerial side/down b because of how aerial attacks work.

His specials, especially his spring, seem like great OoS tools for escaping pressure. His nair seems decent too.

Up B OOS is pretty good, but it's not great because Sonic loses his DJ and as good as Dair/FF Dair mixup is, it's still very much possible to intercept him on the way down, even if he airdodges.

Nair OOS is pretty good as well, but lolrange. It really only works best when they're like all up in your grill, else a lot of the time you'll get the weak hit and that's pretty CCable for a while.

Nothing about his OOS game screams great. Just pretty good.

He's not as bad as defense as I used to think at least.

 

[ELI-mination]

LOL @ this guy thinking Sonic is better than Fox, let alone on his level.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, Fox has a gun.

 

[GHNeko]

A pretty fast gun.

 

[Hashtag]

this means nothing. like, actually nothing. this is advice i would give to someone i hate.

Take it how you will, but it really isnt as hard as people are making it out to be. Whatever though.

Bubba, up B OoS really isnt that great, sonic doesnt fall very fast and his dair is kind if lacking still. Better than 2.1 but still...

Edit: GHNeko covered up b OoS.

Also yes neko, should say clanks with his specials. Also when fighting bowser, it's annoying.

 

[bubbaking]

Bowser out-prioritizes everyone, though. <__<

 

[Hashtag]

I think that if you have disjointed hit boxes, you'll be annoying for sonic as well. I have a big problem with my friends link too. So i'd imagine marth and possibly ike as well would be pretty annoying if they keep their spacing up.

Thays just me though.

 

[GHNeko]

Man this sonic discussion would be great on sonic boards.

hint hint.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I FOUND IT

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-XSvTFY216sr_hpQx2FaWdfbdMYT2U4S

enjoy my playlist of some of melee's best camping

although some matches have only a couple of minutes of camping it's still pretty campy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_U_uD5ewow#t=195s

S0ft is my hero.

 

[Oracle]

Sonic is basically melee luigi but with fewer flaws; in short, annoying as hell. My main problem is that most characters can barely combo him, but he can do the same to them.

 

[Wizzrobe]

sonic is the fastest

PM has huge stages

he can't get trapped or pinned

position doesn't mean anything to sonic

he chooses when he attacks

he takes what he wants when he wants

nair does like 14% and kills at 100

he's like fox +++ in a game where every character has some auto death combo on fox and is much harder to edge guard than fox

you can't learn to fight him mid-match because he chooses all engagements so playing smart doesn't even matter

in a game based around positioning, the fastest character gets bigger stages to use, can't be trapped, has all the kill power

sonic and his opponents aren't even playing the same game really

even if sonic were horrible, his raw dashdance speed and a basic grab would make him viable. why you guys thought it was okay to make this character good everywhere else is beyond me.

You have no clue what your talking about, almost none of that is true.

Sonic's kill power isn't even good, he kills the lightest characters with nair at 115%-120% on average size stages

Wario doesn't even die till 170%.

I don't see why you say he has auto combos either. Sonic is not even a combo heavy character at all.

His Grab isn't even great, you can get one hit off of it and maybe a tech chase.

Also, Nair has NO range that's why its a horrible approach

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If we're talking about Sonic as a character, take it to the PM Sonic subforum.

If we're talking about Sonic in relation to the tier list (other character, etc.), take it to the PM Tier List Discussion thread.

This is not the place for arguments about any character's competitive goodness or badness.

 

[ph00tbag]

Nair has huge range, wtf are you talking about?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Last warning. Take it elsewhere, or I'll start infracting people.

 

[SpiderMad]

Last warning. Take it elsewhere, or I'll start infracting people.

The re-incarnation of the main P:M thread, now turned into a Social with the opposite rules lol. Shouldn't there be no rules for a Social though?

Seriously, where did the P:M Project Mars thread go? I can't find it, I remember seeing it though under some kind of "Many mods thread" where it had Maritime and other projects.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't mean to be the bad guy--It's just that everyone spent a long time treating this thread as the source of everything PM-related on SmashBoards, and I want to encourage people to branch out to the character subforums, other threads, and the like. I worry that those threads won't get as much traffic because everyone has become comfortable with just posting in here.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Is there something wrong with people being comfortable when they post things?

If we want to accommodate for comfort, I suggest putting the SmashMod forums back up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is there something wrong with people being comfortable when they post things?

Stuff will get lost within these pages, and the metagame might not grow as quickly if everyone makes their arguments and posts their videos in here instead of more appropriate places.

 

[SpiderMad]

You can trust P:M people to post their same arguments/videos EVERYWHERE, you don't have to worry about that one lol.

lol tbh i really dont like this game.

im in there for the Ikes tho.

We're living on in Ike's memory, the real Ike isn't here anymore.