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Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

FSLMJM

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2007
Messages
297
@Wiseguy's post that had my character list in it:


I would get rid of the following:

Petey Piranha-oh well...
Issac-I don't think much people know much about him
Waluigi-not the most requested character after all
Chrono-maybe too much 3rd parties

That should make it 40 characters unless I counted wrong...

Also, what would you rate it?
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
Wow, my character list is once again ignored by Wiseguy. Doesn't matter too much anyways, I'm sadly starting to drift away from here...
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Livermore, the Bay repping NorCal Smash!
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WW Link is just as deserving as TP Link. He is a separate character entirely and he has his own unique personality and abilities. He also represents LoZ: Windwaker: one of the greatest games in the series, and the upcoming sequel LoZ: Phantom Hourglass.
WW Link for GOD TIER!!! He's obviously my top pick for newcomer to the SSB series, and he'd totally pwn all=TOTAL N00B ANNILANATION!!!! *evil laugh*

Poor Goroh. Noone seems to like him...
Raises his hand really, really fast. I love F-Zero X and F-Zero GX, they are totally underrated, and totally friggen awsome!!! Seriously though, we need a F-Zero DS and Wii game though, that would be pretty sick!

Since Ness' game was the only one to see international release, I don't see any characters from the other two games as very likely. Still, I could be wrong.
Lucas still would be awsome, and none of the Mother 1 characters serve that much importance (other than Ness, or Ninten as he's called in Mother 1), plus Mother 2 (Earthbound) is wayyyy more popular worldwide, as well as in Japan! ;)

1) Why isn't Olimar very likely? His series is owned by Nintendo, he represents one of the Gamecubes more successful new franchises and he would be the more original than any other character in the series.
Not against this one....at all!!!

) Nook may be hard to picture, but I think we would have said the same about Snake year ago.
Snake is bigger, badder, and more reconizable. Plus he's wayyy more awsome that Nook. Honestly, most of the characters in smash need to be reconizable, and I think Kahn, Belmont, and Sora are enough of a stretch.

3) The only thing different about each Mii would be their face. Their size, shape and moveset would be standardized.
Just as long as they weight the same, are the same height, have the same attacks, I'm all for them, other than I think they could take too many character spots. Remove them from your list Wiseguy, and you can change two or three of those clones to originals! :laugh:

4) Kahn is from Elite Beat Agents for the DS. You should really check it out.
=Awsome game, though I still like Metroid Prime: Hunters (best DS game ever), NEW SMB, and Mario Kart DS more, it's still a sick game though!

Ike has had as many appearances in FE games as Marth (2) and unlike Marth, both of them have been released internationally. Ike is also popular in both Japan and North America - as well as every where else. Any way you slice it, Ike makes a better representative for the series.
Marth is more popular worldwide thanks to smash, and I'm pretty sure he's Japan's favorite FE character, though I could be wrong. He's up there with Ike at least, well above the Black Knight.

If Canada were vaporized, you would regret it. As America's largest source of Maple Syrup, snow cones, and Hockey Players your civilaztion would crumble without us.
Not maple syrup! :( Snow CONES! :( OMFG Hockey (even if I like Basketball and Football more). The fall of all civilization=the end of any NA country, or at least Mexico, USA, or Canada...:psycho:

If It were up to me, all the Pokemon and Earthdound characters would be cut to make way for more Fire emblem reps - but it ain't gonna happen. FE is a very niche franchise - and I think one character and one clone is pretty fair.
Earthbound>FE, Earthbound is up there with Chrono Trigger and FF VI as the best RPG's on the SNES IMO, and the only SNES games I like more are: tLOZ: ALTTP (as good as Ocarina, play it you "super Zelda fans"), SMW 1&2, DKC 1-3 (especially 2), and FFVI.

Melee was more than a remake of SSB 64 - it was a acomplete reimagining of the series. As much as I love melee, I'd much rather see Sakurai reinvent the series all over again. I highly doubt that Sakurai will be content to just remake Melee, but we'll have to wait and see.
That's what I'm saying, do everything right in Melee and SSB64+add it's own awsome personal twist=awsome! That is reinvention my friends, and that is how Brawl should look like in the end, plus online!!!

A series importance is judged by more than its popularity. Dragon Ball Z games far outsell Metal Gear Solid games - but the later is considered my many to be one of the greatest series in history while the former is not.
As a DBZ fan, all the DBZ games suck IMO, and there's like 10 billion of them. There's like MG 1&2, MGS 1-4 (once 4 comes out), Twin Snakes, those 2 for the PSP, and Portable Opts (I know I spelled that wrong). Plus the re-releases of MGS 2&3=like 12 MGS games. Plus DBZ didn't start in video gaming, so it's not going to happen. Again, ALL the DBZ games suck IMO!

Pokemon games might sell well, but they haven't set the standard for what a videogame can be. The Zelda series has - multiple times.
Remade and reinvented the RPG standards, raised the bar with FF to a level of extreme expectations, and almost everytime they deliver it, minus a few cheap and stupid spinoffs. They're far more popular than tLOZ, and this is coming from a LOZ nut! :laugh:

While the reasons behind including Ness, G&W and Snake were all different, they were all characters that no one would have expected. Sakurai loves to surprise us with seemigly unlikely characters - so someone like Kahn is all but guaranteed.
Mach Rider, Mii's, Balloon Fight, etc. Need anymore=???

A character's worthiness for Smash can't be judged by how many people will play as them. Yoshi, for example, is the most likely character is reurn from Melee - yet hardly anyone plays as him in my experience. The thing that determines whether a character is worthy to appear in Brawl is their importance to their imporatnce in their respective franchise and whether that franchise deserves representation. Character originality is also important - and Nook would definitely be original.
More people would play Falco than Nook. I could even go as far as saying there would be 4 times the number of Falco mains vs. Nook mains, and c'mon wat's Nook going to do, just use his tail and a shovel=??? Resetti is better anyways...

Besides, I'm not the only person who would like to play as Nook:
But you'd be part of the smallest character minorty, with other Nook players. Face it, not many people want to play as him, and he'd be nowhere near as played as Falco. And I could also go as far as saying that if it came down to Nook or Falco, 95% of us at least would prefer Falco.

I thnk you are overplaying the character depth of the Star Fox characters. SF isn't about the story as much as it is about shooting stuff.
Command sure as heck is, plus the series is a perfect balance of blasting in ships, with guns, and story. I could argue the same thing with FE or tLOZ, but they all have that perfect balance of story, action, and fighting.

Regardless, Nook's role as the forst most important Animal Crossing character outweighs Falco's role as third or fourth most important SF character. Last time I checked, Animal Crossing DS sold far for than Satr Fox Command.
Falco is in a far more popular series, about fighting in ships and with guns. Nook is the star of a real life simulator that involves no fighting watsoever, and probably never will. C'mon, honestly how many Smash players actually want a AC character,=??? Even many of the AC fans like myself don't want a AC character in Brawl (maybe Resetti if done right).

Vader doesn't have a dark side. He has an awesome side:



and a wimpy side:



I wish they had gotten Kiefer Sutherland to play Anakin in the prequel trilogy. He could have single handed prevented those movies from sucking.
Wat, Episode III was the best, and sure II had too many romance scenes, but the action in it was friggen the best in the series (especially the clone wars, the Jedi Arena, and the Count Dooku fighs). I actually like Hayden as Vader, he fits the roll perfectly, and is friggen awsome. I'm guessing you like 24 as much as I like Star Wars=too much! Besides, as awsome as Keifer is, "He's too old" :laugh: .

Ian McDiarmidd as Darth Sidious/Chancellor Palpetine, Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu, and Christopher Lee as Count Dooku/Darth Thyranus fit the movie perfectly! Overall it's more like friggen awsome, and friggen unpredictably awsome. Plus the new trilogy totally pwns the old, even if the old is pretty awsome.

Ya, I've seen all those movies wayyyyy toooo many times, I think they all friggen own, and how come noone agree with me that Empire is the best of the original trilogy! Empire totally pwns Jedi and ANH, even if those two are still friggen awsome!

Hopfully, you're right about Capcom. But why all the pacman hate? Would he really be so terrible?
No, but there are way better choices than Pac-man. I like Pac-Man and all, but I can name like 10 wayyyy better 3rd party choices that are at least somewhat likely. The only reason I'm hating on him is he isn't a fighter like Sonic, Megaman, Geno, and Crono, and I like those four a lot more than Pac-Man.

No, Belmont doesn't star in the DS games to my knowlege (haven't played them either) but I unserdtand he is the most prominent character in the series so he probably stands the best shot.
With minimal chances, sure he's the main character and all, but watever.

1) Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But I still think that EBA is a great enough series to deserve a rep in Brawl.

2) Forgive me if I'm unimpressed that G&W has appeared in Wario Ware mini games. I'd hardly consider that a revivla of the series.

3) Current series trump retro series. Having a few forgotten characters as guests in Smash is fine, but not as peramanent characters in the series.

4) G&W is neat, but so are alot of other potential characters who deserve a turn in Smash.

5) Sorry, but 24 owns all those shows. Brawl news would be pretty much the only thing that could keep from going nuts as I wait for the next season.
1.Duh EBA is friggen awsome, noone can LEGALLY deny it, even in a capitolist government! :laugh:

2.He has his own games in Japan that could become worldwide, though I'm not willing to bet on that.

3.Why not, G&W is awsome! Idc about the newest characters for the most part, I want to play as the classic characters we all know. Besides, G&W's impact on Nintendo, as well as video gaming, is far more than EBA (or just about any other series or charcter) ever will.

4.Classics forever! Classics are friggen awsome, and they never die, and new characters come and go. Kahn is cool, but how long will he last, compared to G&W who has games coming out today, 27 years after his first game=straight up amazing!

5.Comedy compaired to action drama=apples and oranges. I like comedy, but 24 is still pretty awsome!

IF Mother 3 gets localized, then fine. Otherwise, no deal.
If I find a website asking for signatures to have Mother 3 go worldwide, I'll sign it a million times! "Join me, and together we can bring peace,justice, and freedom to the galaxy!" *evil laugh*=Darth Sidious! Mother 3 would own, if it goes worldwide I might cry with excitement! Seriously though Wiseguy, you and anyone else would enjoy Earthbound (Mother 2), and we'd probably all love Mother 3 just as much! Seriously, Nintendo needs to stop being retarted and sell Mother 3 worldwide=they're biggest flaw, EVER!

Side note: I hear this constantly that Samurai Goroh is in every F-Zero game, but in one (or the only) GBA F-Zero game he wasn't in it, along with Capt. Falcon as well. Just thought I'd throw tha out there.

Originally Posted by Classic-Black
I've played DKC 1, 2, and 3. I will; admit that I didn't enjoy 3 as much as the first two, but I still don't find Dixie that appealing, at least to the extent that she would be a decent character without riding on Diddy's coattails.
As long as she isn't paired with Diddy llike Sakurai said he liked the idea, I want her, really badly! Idc if Sakurai wantes Diddy and Dixie as a team, IC should be the only team characters period. Seriously though, she could have some awsome combos with that hair, have some neat beat down combos, and is definitely better than a lot of the dumb ideas out there (like Metroids=who the **** wants to play as them=????)

again, how is Chrono not overpowered? by the Endgame (which is where the characters seem to stem from) You've got two levels of lighting, and Luminaire witch is the Ultimate Kill-all. You've got seriously damaging sword techs, and a chrono with maxed stats and the best armor and weaponry. Crono is overpowered the same way Sora, or any main hero is by the end of the game. He's a Parisite God killer. Now, I don't think Sora will be included, but to say he's overpowered whi;le Crono isn't is laughable.
[/QUOTE]

Then give Crono mainly his earlier moves, a few of his stronger moves, and his strongest move as his Final Smash attack. There he isn't overpowered, while Sora does those crazy air combos he whole game through. Crono is overpowered, but Sora is far more overpowered, seriously, I could do 1,00 hit combos, triple finishing attacks, mad elemental and gravity and time stopping attacks by the end of Kingdom Heats II, plus I can fly=awsome, but not for Brawl.

I never said that Chrono and Geno didn't have chances, only that one is purely retro, and the other developed a cult following. The simple fact is that Sora is more recent, and while CoM is his only nintendo related title, is not where most of his popularity stems from (the same with Snake.) ALso Crono only starred in Chrono trigger, he cameod in Cross as one of those 'ghost' children along with Nadia and Lucca. In Radical Dreamers, the game from which Chrono Cross was born, the only recurring player from the first game was Magus, under the alias of Gil. By the time CC was released, this was no longer the case.
They both (Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger) are cult classics, retro, and legendary games IMO, but that's just me, and everyone should agree with me! I barely know anything about Chrono Cross, I've only seen it and never really played it (how the **** does it not have Crono=???). Sora is more recent, but he still doesn't stand as much as a chance as Geno and Crono, and that we all should agree on. Unless Kingdom Hearts III comes out on the Wii, in which KH III might not even star Sora, I don't see Sora happening.

@ Wiseguy
Add Mach Rider at least to the runner ups, because he's friggen awsome, and has a decent chance at making it into Brawl.

Woah that was long! Too long, so I'll end it nice and cool!



^^^^ That is what I'm talking about!
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Wow, my character list is once again ignored by Wiseguy. Doesn't matter too much anyways, I'm sadly starting to drift away from here...
Aw :( Don't say things like that. >.< This is still one of the few topics that doesn't make me want to bang my head against the nearest wall. Maybe your list was just too perfect? ;p
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
Maybe... :chuckle:

I don't feel like making another, though, if he'll not rate it again. It is meant to be the point of the topic. Let's start up a discussion about... Something.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Anything is preferable really to reading some of the posts I've read the past couple of days. >.> That in mind, what is there to discuss? ^^ Possibly that I've just realised im going on holiday at the start of E3 and that means that i'll now be getting the Smash Bros. news about a week later than everyone else? Hm that's not really on the topic of thread.

I'd like to discuss retro characters, since my list has only got Pit and needs a retro or 2 more. I think the hot choices for retro's are Geno although he is 3rd party, Little Mac, Balloon Fighter, Ice Climbers, G+W, Mach Rider...any others? Does Skull Kid count as retro? :laugh:

So if you had to pick 2 to get in, which ones and why?

Edit: Oh and just out of interest really, if you could pick 1 character, absolutely anyone as long as they're viable, to be in who would it be?
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
I'd probably choose Wolf. As long as he's a heavy Wolf-type.

I'd choose Balloon Fighter and Mach Rider I guess. I never liked IC or G&W, they're very odd. I never used them, always destroyed them in fights. And no, Skull kid is not retro. :lol:

I'm going on holiday tomorrow apparently...
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
Mario - 5
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Dr.Mario

Mario's confirmed. Luigi was one of the origional twelve, so he isn't going anywhere. Peach is basically confirmed as her importance in the series and popularity in Smash mesh together at the same point. Bowser will return - hopefully not so **** nerfed. He's a mess in 'Melee.

Bowser Jr. is different from the other four, as he's not so certain. Considering that he's the main villain in recent games such as New Super Mario Bros. and the main 'Gamecube Mario game Super Mario Sunshine, the time of Bowser Jr. has started. His paintbrush could also work, but I'm not for the whole Shadow Mario thing like others are. We don't need more Zelda/Sheik characters.


Legend of Zelda - 5
TP Link
TP Zelda
TP Ganondorf
WW Link (Replacing Y. Link)
Midna (Imp Form)

Link is confirmed. Ganondorf will return, due to his appearance in 'Melee and now TP it's pretty much a given. Zelda's the same as Ganondorf. WW Link will replace Y. Link, seeing as he's basically an upgrade from Y. Link anyway. Midna will, unfortunately, be in. Whether this will be on Wolf Link or alone in her Imp form is hard to decide, but I went with the Imp form as that would be the best way to promote the character and elevate her popularity( and the popularity of TP, as if it needed help).

Donkey Kong - 3
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
K. Rool

Donkey Kong is practically confirmed. Diddy Kong's the only other Kong I see being in realistically. Now, we have only gotten the one Donkey Kong character for the past two Smash games, not representing the Donkey Kong franchise at all. With the release of Diddy Kong racing and past merits Diddy Kong is a given, he also somewhat represents the Kong family. K. Rool would be the opposite end of the spectrum - a villain - giving Donkey Kong the honorable 'Brawl roster it deserves.

Kirby - 3
Kirby
Metaknight
King Dedede

Kirby and Metaknight are confirmed. Dedede is the most popular character from Sakurai's poll, and one of Sakurai's own characters, so he's practically confirmed. The trio, as with Donkey Kong, sheds light on a series that gets less than it warrants from Smash - especially considering Sakurai created it. His humbleness and fear that people will see him favouring his own characters has kept him from adding all these three before. Not only that, Kirby was nerfed to the bottom of the tiers in 'Melee. It is unforgivable, but Sakurai will redeem himself with 'Brawl if he adds Dedede as well as Metaknight. 'Brawl will be Kirby's playground if it turns out how it should.

StarFox - 4
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

I was seriously considering changing the line-up... But it won't work without all four. Fox is confirmed. Falco is on the edge, having the two others on his tail for the StarFox spots... But is there any point in removing Falco? Or rather, why remove him when they can simply leave him as he is with a little nerfing in 'Melee? If Fox changes, Falco can survive with a nerfed moveset. Goodbye to the days of godly Falco. Wolf was seen in the 'Melee introduction, which means something in my eyes. He is acknowledged. He'll be added before anyone else. Krystal plays a massive role in the new StarFox games, as much as we protest against them, so she has a place. All three represent different things in the series and have possibilities with movesets so I don't see why there should be any deliberation when StarFox is in development for the Wii and has a DS game, two 'Gamecube games, a legendary '64 game and a spectacular origional on the SNES. To the Arwings!

F-Zero - 2
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh

Meh, F-Zero. Goroh's another 'Melee villain (in the introduction) that is recognised (in the introduction) and after some investigation into the series here and there seems to be the most legitimate character from the series apart from Falcon himself - who is one of the twelve.

Fire Emblem - 3
Marth
Ike
Black Knight
Roy

Leave Marth, take out Roy. Then we can add these two. People were requesting Marth left and right for 'Melee, so removing him now would cause a small uproar. Ike is now the new Marth for 'Brawl, heavily requested worldwide. Black Knight is there for the sake of being there. He's a villain, he's connected to Ike, he's also in two of the games as well as Ike. It all clicks.

Pokemon - 4
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario
Pichu

Pikachu and 'Puff are part of the twelve. Mewtwo needs serious anti-nerfing and deserves a chance of redemption in 'Brawl. Lucario is too highly requested to be ignored now. I was thinking of putting in Meowth but there isn't enough space for a fifth Pokemon, as much as there is room for all these other Pokemon in balls. Pichu is a definite removal.

Metroid - 2
Samus/Zamus
Ridley

Dark Samus deserves to be in, but there isn't enough room... Sadly. Samus/Zamus confirmed. Ridley's in the 'Melee opening and plays a massive role in the games, even the Japan-popular ones. It's a start for a big Nintendo series that is under-represented...

Earthbound/Mother - 1
Ness

Mother doesn't need another character. Either Ness gets the axe for Lucas, or Ness stays. Sacrifices here are for the best of others.

Other - 5
Pit
Wario
Yoshi
Balloon Fighter
Captain Olimar
G&W
IC

I replaced Phoenix Wright with Olimar. Vali convinced me with his knowledge of Pikmin and intelligent deliberation. Pit and Wario are confirmed. Yoshi's practically confirmed. IC and G&W are replaced by Balloon Fighter, as they both are very one-dimensional and so replaceable anyway. We also have retro representation with the 3rd-party characters, so adding in retired characters for the very sake it not needed.

3rd-Party - 3
Sonic
Megaman
Snake

Sonic's practically confirmed. Snake is confirmed. Megaman is critically less likely, but if the rights can be obtained then it will happen. And with the decline in popularity of recent Megaman games, I see it happening just for the sake of Megaman and Capcom being stapled to the credits of 'Brawl.

Total - 40

That wasn't so hard... Not too much fun getting rid of Dark Samus or Skull kid, but it's as accurate as it will get.
Sorry man. Everyone makes mistakes, and this time it was me.:( I neglected to resepond to your post yesterday and I apologize. I hope you continue to hang out here, as the you have added so much to the discussion, but that's your choice.

Your list has dramatically improved ( I know you made some tough cuts: Skull Kid, etc....) so I'll bump you up to a 9.7.

Also sorry to JohnKnight 1 and everyone else, I can't respond right now. I have to work all day today.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
I liked your thinking and your post....

but you're a ****ing scrub if you think fox needs to be nerfed and...

Comments: Sheik is an abomination. I despise her with every fiber of his being, and if you value fun, balanced gameplay then you will join me in hating her. When using Sheik anyone with two hands and half a brain can soon trump anyone not playing as a top tier character.

Sheik is a tumor. An unintended glitch that will surely be ironed out in Brawl. Sheik sucks all the fun out of tournaments and otherwise fun grudge matches because EVERYONE plays as her. If have any skill at all and choose to play as Sheik, you should be ashamed. ASHAMED!

As the one of the most unimportant characters in history of the Zelda series (she appeared in a single game as Zelda's alter ego) she will certainly not appear in Brawl. Zelda will get an updated appearance and moveset consistent her role with in Twilight Princess and Sheik will be axed, never to be seen or heard from again. Rest in pieces Sheik. May you never darken our doorstep again.
Yeah? Im a shiek main. So go **** yourself. You know what buddy, 50$ if I ever meet you in person says that you can pick shiek, and Ill beat you with my 4 other characters, Mario, Falco, Fox, and Ganondorf.

Because shiek is so easy to play, right? You could just pick her, walk into a tournament and walk away rich.

You have absolutly no idea what you're talking about. N00b shieks are easily destroyed due to shieks ****ty recovery and newbs tendencies to spam fair and forward smash like idiots.

It comes down to the player, in the end. Chudats Pichu will beat your shiek or your fox. Or mine. Same goes for Azen's... anything... and especially captain jack's DK. So chances are if your friend beats you with shiek, he could beat you with any other character hes comfortable with. And if you dont like shiek, play fox or falco as a 2nd choice... they rip through her.

So yeah I had a fun time reading though your post because you do have some good ideas, but your scrubby remarks ended up pissing me off. Ill leave you alone now.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Wow, anger problems or something? You have no right to be so abusive about someone else's opinion when it's in the best interests of the Smash community. Only a ****ing scrub would think that the top tier don't need to be nerfed because that's how you balance a game, sheesh. The fact that Sheik is the best character in the game and undeniably is the easiest top tier character to use effectively destroys your argument. If a person is incredibly skilled with a character like Pichu goes up against an less but still incredibly skilled Sheik then he's got a good chance of losing just because Pichu is a much weaker character than Sheik. That's the whole point of the tier list, a character's advantage if the players are equally matched in skill.

You wouldn't play as Sheik as a main if he/she wasn't incredibly powerful. Unless you have some kind of obsession with her/him then you wouldn't play her/him if he/she was nerfed. Sheik is even an abomination in the sexuality department. If Sheik returned to Melee, nerfed to middle tier along with everyone else (so saying the game is almost perfectly balanced) then no-one would play Sheik save for a couple of obsessionists. The character itself isn't popular, has no relevance to Zelda at all and if he/she was left out of Melee then people will find new mains and move on. Probably the easiest and most powerful character to play, but still a new main. Including a nerfed Sheik into the Brawl roster will be a waste of a character slot that could go to some relevant, deserving character people will actually want to play.

Don't be a whiny tool.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,576
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Hinckley, Minnesota
NNID
boundless_light
Wow, anger problems or something? You have no right to be so abusive about someone else's opinion when it's in the best interests of the Smash community. Only a ****ing scrub would think that the top tier don't need to be nerfed because that's how you balance a game, sheesh. The fact that Sheik is the best character in the game and undeniably is the easiest top tier character to use effectively destroys your argument. If a person is incredibly skilled with a character like Pichu goes up against an less but still incredibly skilled Sheik then he's got a good chance of losing just because Pichu is a much weaker character than Sheik. That's the whole point of the tier list, a character's advantage if the players are equally matched in skill.

You wouldn't play as Sheik as a main if he/she wasn't incredibly powerful. Unless you have some kind of obsession with her/him then you wouldn't play her/him if he/she was nerfed. Sheik is even an abomination in the sexuality department. If Sheik returned to Melee, nerfed to middle tier along with everyone else (so saying the game is almost perfectly balanced) then no-one would play Sheik save for a couple of obsessionists. The character itself isn't popular, has no relevance to Zelda at all and if he/she was left out of Melee then people will find new mains and move on. Probably the easiest and most powerful character to play, but still a new main. Including a nerfed Sheik into the Brawl roster will be a waste of a character slot that could go to some relevant, deserving character people will actually want to play.

Don't be a whiny tool.
I can understand why you're so angry (Dylan tends to be a bit adamant and unrestrained about certain pieces of subject matter), but be a little more wary. You're stepping on the toes of Sheik mains like myself who play the character for the sake of enjoying the character. Yeah, she has distinct advantages that make her unbalanced but she is by far not the most broken thing on the god**** planet. I had this discussion with Wiseguy a while back and, while I agree with many of his Sheik-bashing points (him and I totally agree on the fact that Sheik is going the way of the dinosaurs in relation to Brawl, for instance), I still stand by my coda: It boils down to raw skill and what said players can do with each character.

I think Plairnkk summed it up quite nicely when he said this:


Sheik is the easiest to win at any level, that's why she wins so many major tournaments, right? No wait, those are the fox and marth players.

Her F-air is so easy to kill with? Learn to DI. Her F-air isn't strong at all, if you're going to complain then complain about it being too quick, not too strong.

Her combos aren't easy (aren't even possible) if the opponents know how to DI. You probably just think L cancelling is easy because she has not too much landing lag, so even when you miss 90% of them you don't notice since you aren't good enough to capitalize off of achieved L cancels anyway.

All of you newbies say the same thing and whine about sheik, but I guess it's acceptable since (imo) there aren't very many good sheik players, most get caught up somewhere along the line in her metagame and max out and never achieve anything. I think it's easy to get up to that point, to actually pass it and achieve things with sheik is where it starts to really take skill.
Granted, he could've been a little less *****y about his point but that's the general idea. Now, let's not let this thread devolve into a flame war. This is by far the best bloody thing to read on the forums right now, and I really enjoy the discussions that go on within.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Sorry I was being a bit of an arse, but it just annoys me. I realise there are people that enjoy the character and there are some very skilled people that play her, but there's a lot of people that are adamant that she should be included just because she's powerful and easy to get good with. Plus the scrub thing with Fox being nerfed was a big toe over the line in my books :). It's not that I don't respect the minority that love Sheik for Sheik (I was just phrasing it in an angry way) but I don't repsect those who just love the power. Sorry again if I offended.
 

Ferro De Lupe

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Prepare to be Amazed and Astounded: Wiseguy’s Brawl Character Predictions

Not likely, but I'm always up for a good discussion.

Update: 5/24 2007- A couple new additions and one other character cut. Also, I encourage everyone to show me how they could do better and post their character predictions.

Okay... Just remember, you asked for it.

Mario Series:
1) Mario
2) Luigi
3) Peach
4) Bowser

I have to disagree here. Bowser's weakness was not his power or his speed (both suited him fine,) but rather his weight. He's the heaviest character in the game and yet, he still gets tossed around at 100%? Bowser at 100% should be equal to Link at 35%. He needs to take some serious hits before he starts flying. This applies to all the heavier characters.

Okay...yes. A little (just a tiny bit) more speed wouldn't hurt him either. Also, hitting him in the back with smaller attacks should have no/decreased effect on him due to his shell.

5) Bowser Jr. or Toad

In my opinion, Toad is equally as likely as Bowser Jr. He is the last of the "Mario Eight" and has a strong, loyal following. Personally, I don't care for Toad, but to deny his high chance is stupid. I'd bet money that only one will make it...not both.


Zelda Series:
1) Link (Twilight Princess Style)
2) Young Link (Windwaker style)

Likely, yes. "Very likely"...nope. Very likely implies someone who is all-but-confirmed. Young Link (regardless of the one we're talking about) is far from that level. He is a stronger candidate than most, but there are those who are stronger.


2) Zelda (Twilight Princess Style)
3) Ganondorf (Twilight Princess version)
5) Midna (Twili form)

I know you've been given a lot of crap about this one...but they're right. She appeared for...what, five minutes? The monkeys played a bigger role than she did.

4) Midna/Wolf Link

Again, you've already been given so much crap about this...so I'll back off of this one by simply stating that Neiteio is right on the dot.

Plus... A picture is worth a thousand words.

Also, @ Neiteio: Where did you get those pictures? And are there any more? I’ve been hunting for some Midna pictures.


Pokemon Series:
1) Pikachu
2) Jigglypuff
3) Mewtwo
4) Lucario or Deoxys

I think it is very likely that the Mon will get four. Five is possible, but I think four is more likely.

I stopped keeping up with the Mon after the first generation died down, so I'm not up-to-date on which ones are popular and which aren't. However, everywhere I go, these two seem to top the list.

Also, no Mewtwo? That's just criminal. The first generation is gone from the eyes of the world, but Mewtwo will always be one of the most significant figures to exist in the Mon world.


Metroid Series:
1) Samus/Zero-suit Samus
2) Ridley
4) Dark Samus

In my opinion, there is only one Metroid villain worthy of Brawl...and it's not Dark Samus. Though Dark Samus would not necessarily be a clone, Ridley, regular Samus, and Zero Suit Samus should be plenty to satisfy the Metroid fans for a while.


Kirby Series:

1) Kirby
2) Metaknight
3) King Dedede

No complaints.

Star fox Series:

1) Fox McCloud
2) Krystal
3) Wolf
4) Falco

Why is it that no one seems to think that Star Fox can/should/will have four characters? I'm not even a Star Fox fan (it's a flight simulator in disguise) and I agree that four is perfectly acceptable. Make Fox dependant on his ground attacks, Falco on his air attacks, Wolf on his weapons, and Krystal on her staff... How does that not make sense?

And, no. I'm not defending Falco (I don't like Falco all that much.) I would have pointed this out for either Wolf or Krystal too.


Donkey Kong Series:
1) Donkey Kong
2) Diddy Kong
3) King K. Rool

No arguments (except that DK64 was a very fun game.)

The Fire Emblem Series:
1) Ike
2) Marth
3) Black Knight

True, FE DOES need an antagonist and the Black Knight is the best bet for one. However, I feel that the heroes should represent it first with the Black Knight as a potential third candidate. Sticking with the “we need more villains” theme, the Black Knight is the best bet for a third slot.

Marth needs to stay just for the sheer fact that he is, and always will be, the first Lord. He started it all.


The F-zero series:
1) Captain Falcon
2) Samurai Goroh

The Earthbound Series:
1) Ness
2) Poo

I personally think that Falcon and Ness are both plenty for their respective franchises. Neither of them are big enough to yield a second representative.


Other Nintendo Characters:
1) Yoshi
2) Wario

In my opinion, these two will always be Mario characters, but it is good to see them branching off in the same sense that DK did.

3) Pit
4) Captain Olimar
5) Tom Nook
6) Mii
7) Commander Kahn
7) Andy

I agree with all of them, except Kahn. Nook and Olimar represent Nintendo franchises that became big after Melee was released and deserve a slot. The Mii is the closest thing we'll ever likely have to 'create-a-character" mode plus it helps to represent the advancement Nintendo has made in gaming. In exchange for Kahn, I offer Andy of the Advance Wars series. Advance Wars is rapidly growing to Fire Emblem popularity and Andy, being the protagonist of the first two games and making a playable cameo in the third, is the face of the franchise. Don't get me wrong. EBA isn't too small to get a slot, Advance Wars has just been around longer and, in my opinion at least, deserves it more.


Third Party Characters:

1) Snake

I've never played Metal Gear of any kind. He wouldn't have been my first choice for a slot, or my second, or even my third really... But there's nothing that can be done about him now. Only good thing I see is that he C-4ed the door blocking third-party from getting into Brawl.

2) Sonic

Sonic is in a five-way tie for my favorite character in existence (tied with Bowser, Luigi, Midna, and HK-47,) so, naturally, when the door was blown open by Snake, all my hopes rose significantly.

3) Megaman

Having never played a Megaman game in my life, I am neutral. Just through the lack of knowledge, I would rather see someone else.

3) Rayman

Personally speaking, I find Rayman to be more likely than Megaman. Rayman Rabbids is currently the #1 third-party game on the Wii and there is a second game already in production. How many games does Megaman have out on the Wii right now? Putting Rayman in Brawl will draw people to Rabbids as well as the future game.

4) Simon Belmont

Never mind the fact that you're completely disregarding the rule Sakurai made about "only 1-2 more after Snake", I'll just pretend that these guys are the ones you'd include in the event the previous two didn't.

See Megaman for opinion. (Yes, the same applies.)

5) Sora

In my personal opinion, Square's best bet for a rep lies not in Sora, Cloud, or even Geno, but in Crono. His game is, to this day, considered one of the greatest RPGs to exist. Ranking behind only OoT and FFVII on GameFAQs "Best Game" contest a few years back, and only behind OoT on a list that can actually be respected (Game Informer, I think. I forgot which list it was.) Crono represents everything that used to be good between Nintendo and Square. To put Crono in Brawl could very well revive the franchise (or, at least, a remake of the original with updated technology.)

6) Geno

See Sora for my opinion here.


And now a moment of silence in memory of the characters that will hopefully be cut from the Smash Bros. roster:

1) Dr. Mario

He's no Dr. Zoidburg...that's for sure.

"I‘m a doctor. She‘s dead."


2) Mr. Game & Watch

Tell me... What's the one difference between Mr. Game and Watch and Mario? Mario's game thrived while G&W's died. G&W represents an era long before Nintendo was synonymous with video games. He, more than any other character in the history of games, deserves this slot. He was the Mario of the pre-video game era. He had the wackiest moveset, and was popular. There is absolutely no logical reason to remove him.

Unfortuneatly, it is possible for him to leave in place of someone more "modern".


3) Ice Climbers

In no way, shape, or form do the Ice Climbers deserve to leave. Sure, their own franchise (like G&W) is dead. But they had the most original moveset in Melee and (also like G&W) were very popular among us. And (again, like G&W) it is possible for them to leave.

I think that, given the opportunity of a huge roster, G&W and the IC will be saved. However, a small roster could very well mean the end of them.


4) Mewtwo

See the Mon section for my opinion.

5) Pichu

Why would they bring him back? He is insignificant in Melee and equally insignificant in the Mon series.

6) Marth

See the Fire Emblem section for my opinion on Marth.

7) Roy

Roy must go. He did his job, and now he is done.

8) Sheik

I'm neutral on Shiek. On one hand I want him* to stay as he* represents OoT. On the other, I want him* to go as Twilight Princess Zelda has no use for him*. Perhaps a separate slot for him* could be made up in Brawl? Oh well, neutrality has it's advantages.

* = I refuse to call Shiek female until the body figure matches that of a female. Screw the trophy in Melee! It's easy to see that Nintendo did that to cover their butts so the soccer moms didn't hit them up with "You have a transsexual in your game! I don‘t want my kids exposed to that!" lawsuits. Offer me viable proof and I might reconsider.


9) Falco

See the Star Fox section for my opinion on Falco.

37 Original characters + 9 clones = 46 Total

My own personal list consists of forty - forty-five characters.

Going by my math, we'll have nineteen new characters for Brawl. It's not an unrealistic number, nor is it going to let the fans down. Each franchise (minus F-Zero and Earthbound) would get a new character, some getting two. Add in a couple retro/misc. characters and you have a reasonable roster.

Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Toad or B.J., Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Midna/Wolf Link, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario OR Deoxys, Samus/Zamus, Ridley, Kirby, Metaknight, DeDeDe, Fox, Falco, Krystal, Wolf, Donkey Kong, Diddy, K. Rool, Marth, Black Knight, Ike, Ness, Captain Falcon, Wario, Yoshi, Pit, Olimar, Andy, Mii, Tom Nook, Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Snake, Sonic, and Rayman is the roster that I am expecting.

The highlighted ones being the ones I would bet on if he only goes with 35 and everyone else would be added in if he goes higher. This list is 42, so, if he goes 45, he can add three more to that. The underlined ones would be the hidden. Also, some of these guys would be clones, but I'm not going to go through and point them out...that's suicide on this board.



1) Skull Kid

After Midna and Vaati, but before Zant and Tingle.

2) Miciaiah

No...

3) Kalas

No opinion.

4) Paper Mario

I actually would like to see Paper Mario come, and, realistically speaking, he does have a good chance. Think about it. There have been two Marios in the previous Smash games (Luigi and Doc respectively.) So it's not out of the question to say that Paper Mario would be the "second Mario" of Brawl.

5) Isaac

From what I hear, Golden Sun sounds like a solid candidate for a slot; possibly taking the Black Knight off of the list and having Issac in his place if they felt the list was already good big enough.
Just typing this down here to meet the character requirements to post. My responses are all in Red.
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
I understand Wiseguy, thanks!

The fact of the matter is, developers nerf the strongest of their fighting games to make way for other characters. It is a never-ending process, as a fighting game will never be completely balanced. Characters will either be easier to play, naturally faster/stronger or be popular for no apparent reason. All of these elevate characters to top tier. Usually developers try to balance things out, but only do so by destroying top tier characters. Looking at SSB -> 'Melee, it happened to Pikachu, Ness and Kirby. I predict Marth, Fox and Sheik (deleted) will have the same treatment. The bad thing about this is that you disregard old characters for new/other veterans for top spot, so there's no point. It will never be balanced.

At least it makes way for new strategies, new characters used, more top tier/middle tier characters instead of a steep ascension/descent between the best and worst. Eventually it'll be balanced enough that tiers will mean nothing...
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
True Smash Daddy, and I'm hoping that it'll be this time round that they'll get the balancing right. I think if any of the top tier characters return they won't be as horrendously nerfed as Kirby was in the transition to Melee because hopefully Sora/Nintendo will have learnt their lesson from that mistake. I'm just hoping if they make the mistake with a god tier character that they don't do it with Olimar, 'cause I don't want everyone else to be playing him :grin:. Also with the 3 top tier characters potentially being replaced (Falco, Marth and Sheik) it might be that there'll be fewer or no casualities when they have to rebalance the characters. I wouldn't mind if a few of the characters out of Brawl sucked, but I just hope that some different characters (such as Mewtwo) that were horrendously bad in Melee get a chance near the top instead ^^.
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
Wow, Falco, Sheik and Marth could possibly be replaced, couldn't they? The ultimate nerfing... Who has the most chance to survive 'til 'Brawl? I say Marth.

The thing is, you can't balance it enough. You spoil the best characters and so make the other characters better, you should make every character a god character rather than every character as good as Mewtwo, y'know? A group of gods would be varied and funner moreso than a group of scrubs, and imagine the tournament scene!

But, yaa, Mewtwo, Bowser and such are all definitely returning so they need to be anti-nerfed.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Imagine a tournament scene where everyone was a scrub. THAT'd show people that had true skill at using bad characters. I think it's a lot harder to use a character with no distinct awesome skills or attributes well than a bunch of god tier characters, don't you? And besides, when you god tiered everyone you'd still have bottom god tier -> top god tier and then you may as well scrap the god and call them bottom -> top tier again :chuckle:. Now god scrub tier, that's what I wanna see.
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
Yeah, but every match would either be very slow or go on forever. Kinda removes the point in playing! I think for that reason it's best we have all good characters, or at least no Mewtwos, instead of a catalogue of Mewtwo-ish characters. And even then they'd be in tiers of suckiness. God scrubs... How would that work? :chuckle:
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
@ FSLMJM: With the cuts you made, I'll bump you up to a 9/10.



Okay, I think I'm get this out of the way before I do anything else:

I liked your thinking and your post....

but you're a ****ing scrub if you think fox needs to be nerfed and...
Hi there. Welcome to the discussion.

I'm glad you enjoyed my post. But how does my opinion that Fox is an overpowered character make me a "scrub"?


"Bah! I'm Wiseguy and I think Fox needs to be nerfed!"


Yeah? Im a shiek main. So go **** yourself. You know what buddy, 50$ if I ever meet you in person says that you can pick shiek, and Ill beat you with my 4 other characters, Mario, Falco, Fox, and Ganondorf.

Because shiek is so easy to play, right? You could just pick her, walk into a tournament and walk away rich.
Sheik is far easier to play at a competitive level than most other Smash characters, yes. Maybe you are good enough to beat me under the circumstances you described, but that doesn't change the fact that Sheik gives the player an advantge over those who play as non-high tier characters.


You have absolutly no idea what you're talking about. N00b shieks are easily destroyed due to shieks ****ty recovery and newbs tendencies to spam fair and forward smash like idiots.

It comes down to the player, in the end. Chudats Pichu will beat your shiek or your fox. Or mine. Same goes for Azen's... anything... and especially captain jack's DK. So chances are if your friend beats you with shiek, he could beat you with any other character hes comfortable with. And if you dont like shiek, play fox or falco as a 2nd choice... they rip through her.
In most cases, you are right. The player with the greater skill will almost always win, regardless of their character choice. However, in cases where two evenly matched players play as Donkey Kong and Sheik, who do you think will have the advantage? Again, its not impossible to beat Sheik, and she isn't the only unbalanced character in the game - but the fact she was designed to be an equal half of Zelda/Sheik and winded up replacing Zelda entirely means that we essentially got one character for the price of two.

If you want to play as Sheik, that's your decision. You can even disagree with my asessment that she is an unfairly powerful character - but you can at least be civil about it. Take Smooth Criminal for example: he knows that your more apt to convince others of your point of view if you use logic and reason rather than petty insults.



So yeah I had a fun time reading though your post because you do have some good ideas, but your scrubby remarks ended up pissing me off. Ill leave you alone now.
Fair enough. But I'm more interested in your fellings toward Olimar. In your thread, you listed him as a character under the "bad" character choices. I want to hear your reasoning for why such a unique and awesome character shouldn't get in Brawl. You know, as long as you can handle someone disagreeing with you...

WW Link for GOD TIER!!! He's obviously my top pick for newcomer to the SSB series, and he'd totally pwn all=TOTAL N00B ANNILANATION!!!! *evil laugh*
I couldn't agree more.

Raises his hand really, really fast. I love F-Zero X and F-Zero GX, they are totally underrated, and totally friggen awsome!!! Seriously though, we need a F-Zero DS and Wii game though, that would be pretty sick!
A DS game, definitly. I like my F-Zero races a minutes at a time, so I'd prefer it on the handheld. Also, I'm worried that the Wii's motion controls wouldn't be reliable enough to handle all those hair pin turns. Regardless, I just want to race others over Wi-fi...

Snake is bigger, badder, and more reconizable. Plus he's wayyy more awsome that Nook. Honestly, most of the characters in smash need to be reconizable, and I think Kahn, Belmont, and Sora are enough of a stretch.
Sure, but that hardly says anything. EVERYONE looks like a pansy when they stand next to the great Solid Snake.


Just as long as they weight the same, are the same height, have the same attacks, I'm all for them, other than I think they could take too many character spots. Remove them from your list Wiseguy, and you can change two or three of those clones to originals! :laugh:
If it takes a few clones for me to be able to play as my Jack Bauer Mii, then that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

=Awsome game, though I still like Metroid Prime: Hunters (best DS game ever), NEW SMB, and Mario Kart DS more, it's still a sick game though!
Yeah, Hunters just might be my favorite DS game as well. If only I didn't suck so badly at the online multiplayer...


Marth is more popular worldwide thanks to smash, and I'm pretty sure he's Japan's favorite FE character, though I could be wrong. He's up there with Ike at least, well above the Black Knight.
He may be well known as a Smash character, but his purpose is to be the representative of the FE series, and since the game now has a worldwide fanbase it no monger makes sense for a character from a Japanese only FE game to take up a valuable spot on the roster.

As for the Black Knight, the fact that he could easily be inlcuded as a Ike clone means that he wouldn't be in direct competition with Marth (who would require an entirely different moveset from Ike).


Earthbound>FE, Earthbound is up there with Chrono Trigger and FF VI as the best RPG's on the SNES IMO, and the only SNES games I like more are: tLOZ: ALTTP (as good as Ocarina, play it you "super Zelda fans"), SMW 1&2, DKC 1-3 (especially 2), and FFVI.
I beg to differ. Earthbound might be all that, but as far as most gamers are concerned, it was only one game - not a franchise (since only one game was released outside Japan). I've never played Earthbound, but I can't imagine how it could top Path of Radiance - that was the best RPG ever, as far as I'm concenred.

That's what I'm saying, do everything right in Melee and SSB64+add it's own awsome personal twist=awsome! That is reinvention my friends, and that is how Brawl should look like in the end, plus online!!!
Fair enough. I guess we're not really in disagreement after all.

As a DBZ fan, all the DBZ games suck IMO, and there's like 10 billion of them. There's like MG 1&2, MGS 1-4 (once 4 comes out), Twin Snakes, those 2 for the PSP, and Portable Opts (I know I spelled that wrong). Plus the re-releases of MGS 2&3=like 12 MGS games. Plus DBZ didn't start in video gaming, so it's not going to happen. Again, ALL the DBZ games suck IMO!
My point was not to compare DBZ with Pokemon in quality, but to point out that popularity in and of itself does not make a franchise great - or worthy of a ton of reps in Brawl. Zelda may not make as much manoey as Pokemon, but its games consistently review better and most would say that Zelda games trump Pokemon in quality. Therefore, I see Zelda and Mario as more important franchises than Pokemon (though not by a very large margin) and therefore worthy of more reps in Brawl.

Mach Rider, Mii's, Balloon Fight, etc. Need anymore=???
Exactly. A few characters like these (and Kahn) will probaly be included as surprises. The chances of it being Kahn aren't that high, but someone like him is all but guarantedd.

Still, if I turn out to be right, it will be pretty awesome. I'm probably the only one on Smashboards to predict Kahn...


More people would play Falco than Nook. I could even go as far as saying there would be 4 times the number of Falco mains vs. Nook mains, and c'mon wat's Nook going to do, just use his tail and a shovel=??? Resetti is better anyways...
Like I said, how amny people will play as them is irrevivant to their wothiness for Brawl. All that matters is the importance of the series they represent and their importance to that series.

But you'd be part of the smallest character minorty, with other Nook players. Face it, not many people want to play as him, and he'd be nowhere near as played as Falco. And I could also go as far as saying that if it came down to Nook or Falco, 95% of us at least would prefer Falco.
Sometimes the majority are wrong, and this is one of those times. Maybe no one will play as Nook, but my guess is that the Animal Crossing series will get at least one rep and no one is better suited than Nook.


Command sure as heck is, plus the series is a perfect balance of blasting in ships, with guns, and story. I could argue the same thing with FE or tLOZ, but they all have that perfect balance of story, action, and fighting.
Havn't played Command yet, so I won't disagree.

Falco is in a far more popular series, about fighting in ships and with guns. Nook is the star of a real life simulator that involves no fighting watsoever, and probably never will. C'mon, honestly how many Smash players actually want a AC character,=??? Even many of the AC fans like myself don't want a AC character in Brawl (maybe Resetti if done right).
Star fox 64 didn't involve fighting either, and Falco was still included in Melee.

Again, the roster won't be decided by what most Smash fans want, only what Sakurai and his team decide. Maybe no one will play as Nook, but he could still very well be included.

As for Resetti, he could be Nook's Final Smash Attack. Nook presses reset on a Gamecube and a Huge Ressetti pops out of the ground and begins wrecking havock. Either that or he calls in the Racoon Goons...

Wat, Episode III was the best, and sure II had too many romance scenes, but the action in it was friggen the best in the series (especially the clone wars, the Jedi Arena, and the Count Dooku fighs). I actually like Hayden as Vader, he fits the roll perfectly, and is friggen awsome. I'm guessing you like 24 as much as I like Star Wars=too much! Besides, as awsome as Keifer is, "He's too old" :laugh: .

Ian McDiarmidd as Darth Sidious/Chancellor Palpetine, Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu, and Christopher Lee as Count Dooku/Darth Thyranus fit the movie perfectly! Overall it's more like friggen awsome, and friggen unpredictably awsome. Plus the new trilogy totally pwns the old, even if the old is pretty awsome.

Ya, I've seen all those movies wayyyyy toooo many times, I think they all friggen own, and how come noone agree with me that Empire is the best of the original trilogy! Empire totally pwns Jedi and ANH, even if those two are still friggen awsome!
I have to admit I kinda liked Episode III, though I now find the other two prequels painful to watch. Feel free to disagree, but I still think they should have cast a less sissy actor to play Vader. I think a young Keifer Sutherland would have been perfect, but that's just my opinion.


No, but there are way better choices than Pac-man. I like Pac-Man and all, but I can name like 10 wayyyy better 3rd party choices that are at least somewhat likely. The only reason I'm hating on him is he isn't a fighter like Sonic, Megaman, Geno, and Crono, and I like those four a lot more than Pac-Man.
Yeah, his lack of a compelling moveset does hurt him. I suppose he could be another Mario-esque character (like from SSB 64) who relies on punches and kicks over swords and gimicks, but is that worth paying the big bucks to Namco? I doubt it.


1.Duh EBA is friggen awsome, noone can LEGALLY deny it, even in a capitolist government! :laugh:

2.He has his own games in Japan that could become worldwide, though I'm not willing to bet on that.

3.Why not, G&W is awsome! Idc about the newest characters for the most part, I want to play as the classic characters we all know. Besides, G&W's impact on Nintendo, as well as video gaming, is far more than EBA (or just about any other series or charcter) ever will.

4.Classics forever! Classics are friggen awsome, and they never die, and new characters come and go. Kahn is cool, but how long will he last, compared to G&W who has games coming out today, 27 years after his first game=straight up amazing!

5.Comedy compaired to action drama=apples and oranges. I like comedy, but 24 is still pretty awsome!
1. At least it SHOULD be.

2. Neither am I, though I'd be interested to check them out if they are localized.

3. The Ouedan games are all the rage right now in Japan, and EBA is emerging worldwide as a sleepr hit. I'm betting this series is only getting started.

4. Apples own oranges! (Joking)

As long as she isn't paired with Diddy llike Sakurai said he liked the idea, I want her, really badly! Idc if Sakurai wantes Diddy and Dixie as a team, IC should be the only team characters period. Seriously though, she could have some awsome combos with that hair, have some neat beat down combos, and is definitely better than a lot of the dumb ideas out there (like Metroids=who the **** wants to play as them=????)
QUOTE]

Dixie would be a fine addition, but better than K.Rool? Not so sure.


@ Wiseguy
Add Mach Rider at least to the runner ups, because he's friggen awsome, and has a decent chance at making it into Brawl.
I'll definitely consider it. Tommorow I'll do two runners up to make up for my lack of an update today.

I haven't forgotten you Ferro De Lupe, but after working all day making hamburgers at Wendy's I'm really beat. I'll give a proper responce to your post first thing tommorow.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
You wouldn't play as Sheik as a main if he/she wasn't incredibly powerful. Unless you have some kind of obsession with her/him then you wouldn't play her/him if he/she was nerfed. Sheik is even an abomination in the sexuality department. If Sheik returned to Melee, nerfed to middle tier along with everyone else (so saying the game is almost perfectly balanced) then no-one would play Sheik save for a couple of obsessionists. The character itself isn't popular, has no relevance to Zelda at all and if he/she was left out of Melee then people will find new mains and move on. Probably the easiest and most powerful character to play, but still a new main. Including a nerfed Sheik into the Brawl roster will be a waste of a character slot that could go to some relevant, deserving character people will actually want to play.

Don't be a whiny tool.
Ok. This reminds me of the people that say falco should be taken out because he's a ''fox clone'' Even though falco is nothing, at ALL like fox in playability. Fox is hit and run, laser laser annoy, mindgames drill waveshine grab.. type gameplay

Falco is like.. SHL SHL SHL limit options, see a shield pillar it, choke SHL into throws, shine combo, spike...

Completly different gameplay.

Let me put it this way. I dont give a **** if the characters name is Captain falcon, pichu, ganon, or link.

ALL THAT CONCERNS ME IS MOVESETS, WEIGHTS AND TRACTIONS

I fall in love with games for gameplay. I dont play shiek because I like shiek, I play shiek because I like shieks moveset. If Donkey kong had shieks moveset, id play him.

This game could feature 50 of the ''same'' character, like a wireframe. So long as there were 50 different movesets for the 1 wireframe character (and wavedashing was still in)

Id be happy :) I don't care at all about graphics, at all. Just gameplay. I dont care about the story, because its a fighting game, not the 1player mode, nothing.

Just the movesets, and how they become a GAME when me and my friends play it against eachother.


So when you make arguments like ''shiek isnt a popular zelda character'' realize where Im coming from and that popularity of character should not be taken into mind when creating a new smash game. Purely gameplay is all that matters.

Fair enough. But I'm more interested in your fellings toward Olimar. In your thread, you listed him as a character under the "bad" character choices. I want to hear your reasoning for why such a unique and awesome character shouldn't get in Brawl. You know, as long as you can handle someone disagreeing with you...
I think you have the wrong guy! I never dissed Olimar.

I dont care man. Like I just said, if the game was 50 identicle wireframes with great movesets id be happy.

I hope Olimar is in if you like him! and sorry for the insults I was in a bad mood because people were johnning me online smash... ''omg u throw whor'' sigh.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
ALL THAT CONCERNS ME IS MOVESETS, WEIGHTS AND TRACTIONS

I fall in love with games for gameplay. I dont play shiek because I like shiek, I play shiek because I like shieks moveset. If Donkey kong had shieks moveset, id play him.
That is perfectly fine and everyone is entitled to their own way of making Smash Bros. fun, but I don't understand why you're so adamant that Sheik should return. The fact is if she returns she probably won't play anything like she did because they need to balance her moveset/weight/traction is order to bring her into line like the rest of the characters. When it comes down to it a lot of people do play Sheik just because she's top tier, like a lot of the top tier characters.

People say "Falco/Marth/Sheik should return because a lot of people will be upset if they didn't". I really don't get their logic because if they're being played solely because they're top tier with decent moves then come Brawl and they most likley get nerfed then they'll be unpopular character choices. I'd much prefer to have a new playable character with a completely new moveset who is popular as well come in and have a chance, because on the whole more people will play him/her. At the moment I think of Brawl without tier lists, perfectly balanced, which while I know is a stupid dream might be closer to the truth than we might think. If you factor out the imbalance of their possible respective movesets and playstyles, at the end of the day who would you main?

I made an Olimar moveset which I thought was relevant to the character and fun to play and learn to play, if that moveset was implemented I wouldn't really care at how powerful he was with that moveset and I'd play him because I love the character and Pikmin. I just wonder with all the great new character possibilities that beckon for Brawl, who could honestly say that they'd continue to main Sheik if she returned as Zelda's transformation in a perfectly balanced Brawl?
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud

"I DID IT!"

Or rather, we did it. "It" being the fact that my thread has officially passed McFox's in posts - making it the most succesful character predictions thread on Smashboards! :cool:

To be fair, McFox still has me beat in views... for now! But we've still got months to go before Brawl is released and my view count is catching up fast. Be afraid McFox. Be very afraid.





(Aside: On the off chance that McFox reads this, let me point out that McFox is a really cool guy and a the best moderator around and definitly not the type to use his awesome Moderator powers to crush me like a bug. Right McFox? RIGHT?!?!)

Edit: As promised, two more runners up were added to the list.

Prepare to be Amazed and Astounded: Wiseguy’s Brawl Character Predictions

Not likely, but I'm always up for a good discussion.

Update: 5/24 2007- A couple new additions and one other character cut. Also, I encourage everyone to show me how they could do better and post their character predictions.

Okay... Just remember, you asked for it.
Dude! It's an honour. Your "Rate Their Cahnces" thread is by far the best thread on Smash boards! Keep up the good work.

For the record, its a lot easier to quote you if your points aren't impedded in a quote.


Mario Series:
1) Mario
2) Luigi
3) Peach
4) Bowser

I have to disagree here. Bowser's weakness was not his power or his speed (both suited him fine,) but rather his weight. He's the heaviest character in the game and yet, he still gets tossed around at 100%? Bowser at 100% should be equal to Link at 35%. He needs to take some serious hits before he starts flying. This applies to all the heavier characters.

Okay...yes. A little (just a tiny bit) more speed wouldn't hurt him either. Also, hitting him in the back with smaller attacks should have no/decreased effect on him due to his shell.

5) Bowser Jr. or Toad

In my opinion, Toad is equally as likely as Bowser Jr. He is the last of the "Mario Eight" and has a strong, loyal following. Personally, I don't care for Toad, but to deny his high chance is stupid. I'd bet money that only one will make it...not both.
I'm not sure how much greater endurance would help Boweser against high level characters like Fox - but if the roster can be balanced to the same extent that SSB64 was, then I could see it Bowser becoming a more competitive character with the changes you described.

As for the Bowser Jr. vs Toad debate, I have to give an edge to Bowser Jr. because of his importance in the recent Mario games. Toad, on the other hand, seems to have been replaced by an entire race of generic "toads" and Peach's new assistant: Toadsworth.



Zelda Series:
1) Link (Twilight Princess Style)
2) Young Link (Windwaker style)

Likely, yes. "Very likely"...nope. Very likely implies someone who is all-but-confirmed. Young Link (regardless of the one we're talking about) is far from that level. He is a stronger candidate than most, but there are those who are stronger.

2) Zelda (Twilight Princess Style)
3) Ganondorf (Twilight Princess version)
5) Midna (Twili form)

I know you've been given a lot of crap about this one...but they're right. She appeared for...what, five minutes? The monkeys played a bigger role than she did.

4) Midna/Wolf Link

Again, you've already been given so much crap about this...so I'll back off of this one by simply stating that Neiteio is right on the dot.

Plus... A picture is worth a thousand words.

Also, @ Neiteio: Where did you get those pictures? And are there any more? I’ve been hunting for some Midna pictures.
Young Link: I don't think there are too many characters more likely than WW Link. This stylistic version of the indominable fairy boy (Link) has appeared in numerous high profile releases like Wind Waker, the Four Swords games and the upcoming Phantom Hourglass. he is also the ideal replacement for Melee's Young Link. I personally consider him almost as likely as characters like Diddy Kong.

Midna: To be fair, Twili Midna and Imp Midna are the same person, so she isn't as insignificant as the monkeys to the story of TP.

Pokemon Series:
1) Pikachu
2) Jigglypuff
3) Mewtwo
4) Lucario or Deoxys

I think it is very likely that the Mon will get four. Five is possible, but I think four is more likely.

I stopped keeping up with the Mon after the first generation died down, so I'm not up-to-date on which ones are popular and which aren't. However, everywhere I go, these two seem to top the list.

Also, no Mewtwo? That's just criminal. The first generation is gone from the eyes of the world, but Mewtwo will always be one of the most significant figures to exist in the Mon world.
Mewtwo has a decent shot of retirning, but my money is still on a newer Pokemon taken his place. From my limited understanding, Mewtwo isn't nearly as important in the recent games as he once was, so that makes his being cut a possibility.


Metroid Series:
1) Samus/Zero-suit Samus
2) Ridley
4) Dark Samus

In my opinion, there is only one Metroid villain worthy of Brawl...and it's not Dark Samus. Though Dark Samus would not necessarily be a clone, Ridley, regular Samus, and Zero Suit Samus should be plenty to satisfy the Metroid fans for a while.
I'd be happy as long as Ridley got in, but having DS in as well would be all any Metroid fan could want. As a clone, I think DS stands a decent shot, due to the ease with which he/she/it could be included.


Kirby Series:

1) Kirby
2) Metaknight
3) King Dedede

No complaints.
Yep, Kirby is about the only series everyone agrees on.


Star fox Series:

1) Fox McCloud
2) Krystal
3) Wolf
4) Falco

Why is it that no one seems to think that Star Fox can/should/will have four characters? I'm not even a Star Fox fan (it's a flight simulator in disguise) and I agree that four is perfectly acceptable. Make Fox dependant on his ground attacks, Falco on his air attacks, Wolf on his weapons, and Krystal on her staff... How does that not make sense?

And, no. I'm not defending Falco (I don't like Falco all that much.) I would have pointed this out for either Wolf or Krystal too.
Well, that could work - but is the series really important enough to justify three reps? Pokemon will likely have four characters in Brawl, and I wouldn't put SF ahead Pokemon in importance. Three seems perfectly fair to me.



Donkey Kong Series:
1) Donkey Kong
2) Diddy Kong
3) King K. Rool

No arguments (except that DK64 was a very fun game.)
To each their own I guess...



The Fire Emblem Series:
1) Ike
2) Marth
3) Black Knight

True, FE DOES need an antagonist and the Black Knight is the best bet for one. However, I feel that the heroes should represent it first with the Black Knight as a potential third candidate. Sticking with the “we need more villains” theme, the Black Knight is the best bet for a third slot.

Marth needs to stay just for the sheer fact that he is, and always will be, the first Lord. He started it all.
Yeah, a lot of people seem to think that. I don't see Marth as that important to the series since his game of origin hasn't reached a global audience, but Sakurai may feel as you do. We'll just have to wait and see.


The F-zero series:
1) Captain Falcon
2) Samurai Goroh

The Earthbound Series:
1) Ness
2) Poo

I personally think that Falcon and Ness are both plenty for their respective franchises. Neither of them are big enough to yield a second representative.
Maybe not another rep with an original moveset, but I think each series at least deserve a clone (Goroh and Poo, respectively). That seems like a compromise that all the F-Zero and Earthbound fans could at least live with.



Other Nintendo Characters:
1) Yoshi
2) Wario

In my opinion, these two will always be Mario characters, but it is good to see them branching off in the same sense that DK did.

3) Pit
4) Captain Olimar
5) Tom Nook
6) Mii
7) Commander Kahn
7) Andy

I agree with all of them, except Kahn. Nook and Olimar represent Nintendo franchises that became big after Melee was released and deserve a slot. The Mii is the closest thing we'll ever likely have to 'create-a-character" mode plus it helps to represent the advancement Nintendo has made in gaming. In exchange for Kahn, I offer Andy of the Advance Wars series. Advance Wars is rapidly growing to Fire Emblem popularity and Andy, being the protagonist of the first two games and making a playable cameo in the third, is the face of the franchise. Don't get me wrong. EBA isn't too small to get a slot, Advance Wars has just been around longer and, in my opinion at least, deserves it more.
Interesting point. Advance wars is a great series, but what would his moveset entail? I imagine his guns are off the table (real world weapons, after all) so that leaves us with a character who can wack people with a wrench. Not that exciting, if you ask me.



Third Party Characters:

1) Snake

I've never played Metal Gear of any kind. He wouldn't have been my first choice for a slot, or my second, or even my third really... But there's nothing that can be done about him now. Only good thing I see is that he C-4ed the door blocking third-party from getting into Brawl.

2) Sonic

Sonic is in a five-way tie for my favorite character in existence (tied with Bowser, Luigi, Midna, and HK-47,) so, naturally, when the door was blown open by Snake, all my hopes rose significantly.

3) Megaman

Having never played a Megaman game in my life, I am neutral. Just through the lack of knowledge, I would rather see someone else.

3) Rayman

Personally speaking, I find Rayman to be more likely than Megaman. Rayman Rabbids is currently the #1 third-party game on the Wii and there is a second game already in production. How many games does Megaman have out on the Wii right now? Putting Rayman in Brawl will draw people to Rabbids as well as the future game.

4) Simon Belmont

Never mind the fact that you're completely disregarding the rule Sakurai made about "only 1-2 more after Snake", I'll just pretend that these guys are the ones you'd include in the event the previous two didn't.

See Megaman for opinion. (Yes, the same applies.)

5) Sora

In my personal opinion, Square's best bet for a rep lies not in Sora, Cloud, or even Geno, but in Crono. His game is, to this day, considered one of the greatest RPGs to exist. Ranking behind only OoT and FFVII on GameFAQs "Best Game" contest a few years back, and only behind OoT on a list that can actually be respected (Game Informer, I think. I forgot which list it was.) Crono represents everything that used to be good between Nintendo and Square. To put Crono in Brawl could very well revive the franchise (or, at least, a remake of the original with updated technology.)

6) Geno

See Sora for my opinion here.
Sakurai never set a rule about 1-2 3rd party characters. That was just a conservative estimate he gave off the top of his head to a question.

Crono is definitly a solid choice - but I'm not so sure about Rayman. I'm not sure how popular he is in Japan, and not all of his games (Rabbids included) have been reviewed all that well.



And now a moment of silence in memory of the characters that will hopefully be cut from the Smash Bros. roster:

1) Dr. Mario

He's no Dr. Zoidburg...that's for sure.

"I‘m a doctor. She‘s dead."

2) Mr. Game & Watch

Tell me... What's the one difference between Mr. Game and Watch and Mario? Mario's game thrived while G&W's died. G&W represents an era long before Nintendo was synonymous with video games. He, more than any other character in the history of games, deserves this slot. He was the Mario of the pre-video game era. He had the wackiest moveset, and was popular. There is absolutely no logical reason to remove him.

Unfortuneatly, it is possible for him to leave in place of someone more "modern".

3) Ice Climbers

In no way, shape, or form do the Ice Climbers deserve to leave. Sure, their own franchise (like G&W) is dead. But they had the most original moveset in Melee and (also like G&W) were very popular among us. And (again, like G&W) it is possible for them to leave.

I think that, given the opportunity of a huge roster, G&W and the IC will be saved. However, a small roster could very well mean the end of them.

4) Mewtwo

See the Mon section for my opinion.

5) Pichu

Why would they bring him back? He is insignificant in Melee and equally insignificant in the Mon series.

6) Marth

See the Fire Emblem section for my opinion on Marth.

7) Roy

Roy must go. He did his job, and now he is done.

8) Sheik

I'm neutral on Shiek. On one hand I want him* to stay as he* represents OoT. On the other, I want him* to go as Twilight Princess Zelda has no use for him*. Perhaps a separate slot for him* could be made up in Brawl? Oh well, neutrality has it's advantages.

* = I refuse to call Shiek female until the body figure matches that of a female. Screw the trophy in Melee! It's easy to see that Nintendo did that to cover their butts so the soccer moms didn't hit them up with "You have a transsexual in your game! I don‘t want my kids exposed to that!" lawsuits. Offer me viable proof and I might reconsider.

9) Falco

See the Star Fox section for my opinion on Falco.

37 Original characters + 9 clones = 46 Total
Nothing really to add, except that Dr. Zoidburg rocks and Sheik must be referred to at all times as he/she/it/potatoe. It's only fitting


My own personal list consists of forty - forty-five characters.

Going by my math, we'll have nineteen new characters for Brawl. It's not an unrealistic number, nor is it going to let the fans down. Each franchise (minus F-Zero and Earthbound) would get a new character, some getting two. Add in a couple retro/misc. characters and you have a reasonable roster.

Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Toad or B.J., Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Midna/Wolf Link, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario OR Deoxys, Samus/Zamus, Ridley, Kirby, Metaknight, DeDeDe, Fox, Falco, Krystal, Wolf, Donkey Kong, Diddy, K. Rool, Marth, Black Knight, Ike, Ness, Captain Falcon, Wario, Yoshi, Pit, Olimar, Andy, Mii, Tom Nook, Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Snake, Sonic, and Rayman is the roster that I am expecting.

The highlighted ones being the ones I would bet on if he only goes with 35 and everyone else would be added in if he goes higher. This list is 42, so, if he goes 45, he can add three more to that. The underlined ones would be the hidden. Also, some of these guys would be clones, but I'm not going to go through and point them out...that's suicide on this board.
Great roster. I could definitly live with that. Out of curiousity, if you had to widdle it down to 40 characters (with clones counting as 1/3 of a character how would you do it?

1) Skull Kid

After Midna and Vaati, but before Zant and Tingle.

2) Miciaiah

No...

3) Kalas

No opinion.

4) Paper Mario

I actually would like to see Paper Mario come, and, realistically speaking, he does have a good chance. Think about it. There have been two Marios in the previous Smash games (Luigi and Doc respectively.) So it's not out of the question to say that Paper Mario would be the "second Mario" of Brawl.

5) Isaac

From what I hear, Golden Sun sounds like a solid candidate for a slot; possibly taking the Black Knight off of the list and having Issac in his place if they felt the list was already good big enough.
Thanks for sharing Ferro De Lupe. Your always welcome here.:)

I think you have the wrong guy! I never dissed Olimar.

I dont care man. Like I just said, if the game was 50 identicle wireframes with great movesets id be happy.

I hope Olimar is in if you like him! and sorry for the insults I was in a bad mood because people were johnning me online smash... ''omg u throw whor'' sigh.
Doh! My bad. I confused you with someone else who had the same avitar. I guess I was pretty tired last night...

I have to disagree with your view on the Brawl character roster, though. Since any character can be given a powerful moveset, Sheik and Falco are nothing special. Characters should chosen strictly on their importance in videogames and the uniqueness of their potential moveset - not on how many people will choose to play as them. In any case, Brawl will likely have a more balanced roster, so the days of horribly unbalanced characters like Sheik are likely coming to an end.
 

Ferro De Lupe

Smash Lord
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
1,047
Location
Shawnee, OK
Dude! It's an honour. Your "Rate Their Cahnces" thread is by far the best thread on Smash boards! Keep up the good work.

For the record, its a lot easier to quote you if your points aren't impedded in a quote.
I wouldn't say "honor" per say. I've never really been one to look be looked up at, but thanks anyways.


I'm not sure how much greater endurance would help Boweser against high level characters like Fox - but if the roster can be balanced to the same extent that SSB64 was, then I could see it Bowser becoming a more competitive character with the changes you described.

As for the Bowser Jr. vs Toad debate, I have to give an edge to Bowser Jr. because of his importance in the recent Mario games. Toad, on the other hand, seems to have been replaced by an entire race of generic "toads" and Peach's new assistant: Toadsworth.
The way I look at it, at the current moment, a professional Shiek vs a professional Bowser results in the Shiek being the favorite to win. Shiek easily racks up lots of damage in quick bursts. Bowser does damage equal to Shiek in fewer hits, but in more powerful bursts. But because Bowser is slower, Shiek is more likely to be able to throw Bowser off of the stage before he can counter because his weight (although heavier) isn't sufficiant enough to benefit him. But, if Bowser were to have increasesed weight and/or defenses, Shiek would have to get (virtually) double the amount of damage to get him off. This would help to balance out his slow speed and lag and, thus, making him a bigger threat. Now double is, of course, just an estimate. DK and Ganondorf could also benefit from the weight gain.

It also makes sense that small attacks (i.e. Shiek's needles) wouldn't cause harm if hitting his shell. Though, the thing Bowser needs more than any of this stuff is a spike.

As for Toad vs B.J. I, personally, would like to see Waluigi before either of them (Mario/Luigi vs Wario/Waluigi.) However, I have to side with Toad. He has been around longer and has actually been a playable character in several games (to my knowledge, B.J. only has Mario Kart DD.) Toad is more recognizable and has a bigger fanbase. Toad is just as much synonymous with the "Mario" games as the Italian brothers themselves.


Young Link: I don't think there are too many characters more likely than WW Link. This stylistic version of the indominable fairy boy (Link) has appeared in numerous high profile releases like Wind Waker, the Four Swords games and the upcoming Phantom Hourglass. he is also the ideal replacement for Melee's Young Link. I personally consider him almost as likely as characters like Diddy Kong.

Midna: To be fair, Twili Midna and Imp Midna are the same person, so she isn't as insignificant as the monkeys to the story of TP.
Like I said, he is likely...but not very likely. The only ones I believe to be more likely than him are Midna (with or without Wolf Link) and Tingle [Japanesse fans love him and since he's not a Japan-only character...he is (unfortuneately) a strong candidate.] Aside from Wolf Link, he is the most likely of all of Link's alternate forms.

Okay, to be fair, that is true. However, people seem to think that Twili Midna is a different person than Imp Midna. They are the same, so reguardless of the form, it would be Midna.

However, having the Imp form (in which we spent 98% of the game playing with) riding Wolf Link would be the best because it is the form that we are most familiar with AND offers the chance to test a new moveset possability; quadrupeds (as opposed to the Zelda clone for Twili and the Mewtwo clone for Solo Imp [Pikachu and Pichu are bipeds.]) I have a full (and I do mean full,) completely reasonable moveset of a Wolf Link/Midna team built up...(if you want to see it, just ask.) And that's just a fan-made one. Think what the designers would be able to do.

The point here is that we know Midna as the cute, little imp with a snaggletooth and helmet. To have her in any other form (even her true form) just wouldn't feel right and I, personally, would take it as a slap in the face from Sakurai saying "I don't care what the fans want, I want this."


Mewtwo has a decent shot of retirning, but my money is still on a newer Pokemon taken his place. From my limited understanding, Mewtwo isn't nearly as important in the recent games as he once was, so that makes his being cut a possibility.
I admit, not counting Pichu, Mewtwo is the most likely to be cut (even though I think Jigglypuff deserves it more.) One thing we share in common is our lack of knowledge about the newer generations, however; I do believe that he is still quite popular in the games. ( I could be wrong though.)


I'd be happy as long as Ridley got in, but having DS in as well would be all any Metroid fan could want. As a clone, I think DS stands a decent shot, due to the ease with which he/she/it could be included.
I agree. Ridley would be enough for me. And, as a clone, Dark Samus might just have an excellent chance.

Yep, Kirby is about the only series everyone agrees on.
Isn't that the way it always works out? Though, Kirby better be a threat this time around again... *Is a Kirby veteran of SSB.*

Well, that could work - but is the series really important enough to justify three reps? Pokemon will likely have four characters in Brawl, and I wouldn't put SF ahead Pokemon in importance. Three seems perfectly fair to me.
I see no reason why Star Fox should get any less than four. Mario will likely have six, LoZ and Mon could (possibly) have five, and Metroid could (possibly) have four...so why not give Star Fox four?

To each their own I guess...
I like long Adventure games...though, RPGs and MMOs will always be my favorite.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think that. I don't see Marth as that important to the series since his game of origin hasn't reached a global audience, but Sakurai may feel as you do. We'll just have to wait and see.
Personally, I would like to see Hector instead of the Knight (axes are cooler than swords.) But I don't believe his chances to be as good as I originally thought.

Maybe not another rep with an original moveset, but I think each series at least deserve a clone (Goroh and Poo, respectively). That seems like a compromise that all the F-Zero and Earthbound fans could at least live with.
Clones...I would actually be fine with that.

Interesting point. Advance wars is a great series, but what would his moveset entail? I imagine his guns are off the table (real world weapons, after all) so that leaves us with a character who can wack people with a wrench. Not that exciting, if you ask me.
I wish I could, but (unfortuneately) I don't have a moveset on me. I could make one, but I don't know how accurate it would be (I've only played AW:DS.) Andy's special moves in the games are all repairing moves... To build a moveset for Andy IS a tempting challenge...

Sakurai never set a rule about 1-2 3rd party characters. That was just a conservative estimate he gave off the top of his head to a question.
I still say it's likely that we'll only get 3 tops.

Crono is definitly a solid choice - but I'm not so sure about Rayman. I'm not sure how popular he is in Japan, and not all of his games (Rabbids included) have been reviewed all that well.
Don't get me wrong. Had you asked me what I thought of Rayman a couple weeks ago, I would have told you that he is down around 6-7 on my third-party list. But the recent article in Nintendo Power made me re-evaluate my opinion about his chances. His only competition inside of Ubisoft is the Prince.

Nothing really to add, except that Dr. Zoidburg rocks and Sheik must be referred to at all times as he/she/it/potatoe. It's only fitting
Hehehe...potatoe. Also, as much as Zoidburg rocks, Bender rocks harder. "Hey! I need that to smoke!"


Great roster. I could definitly live with that. Out of curiousity, if you had to widdle it down to 40 characters (with clones counting as 1/3 of a character how would you do it?
I do believe I could. I would even be able to add a couple in...

Starting Characters:
Mario, Bowser, Peach, Link, Zelda, Pikachu, Samus, Kirby, Fox, Donkey Kong, Diddy, Ike, Ness, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Pit, Mii, Mr. Game & Watch, and Ice Climbers. (Total: 19)

Hidden (Non-clones):
Luigi, B.J., Midna/Wolf Link, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario, Zamus, Ridley, Metaknight, Wolf, Krystal, Marth, Wario, Olimar, Andy, Tom Nook, Snake, Sonic, and [Insert final third-party here.] (Total: 18)

Hidden (Clones):
Toad (Peach), Falco (Fox), Metroid Prime (Samus), DeDeDe (Kirby), K. Rool (Bowser), Black Knight (Ike), Ganondorf (Captain Falcon), Samurai Goroh (Marth), Poo/Lucas (Ness) (Total: 9 clones = 3 characters)

Mario - 6 (Mario, Toad, Bowser, Peach, Luigi, B.J.)
LoZ - 4 (Ganondorf, Midna, Link, Zelda (Wolf Link makes 5))
Pmon - 4 (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario)
Star Fox - 4 (Wolf, Fox, Krystal, Falco)
Kirby - 3 (DeDeDe, Meta, Kirby)
Metroid - 3 (Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus (aka Metroid Prime) (Zamus makes 4))
Third-Party - 3 (Sonic, Snake, [Insert])
DK - 3 (Donkey Kong, Diddy, K. Rool)
Earthbound - 2 (Ness, Lucas/Poo)
F-Zero - 2 (Falcon, Goroh)
Fire Emblem - 3 (Ike, Marth, BK)
Misc. - 9 (Pit, Mii, G&W, IC, Wario, Yoshi, Olimar, Andy, Nook)

And that's just one possability...

Now I know someone out there is going to argue my clone choices... Bring it on!

Thanks for sharing Ferro De Lupe. Your always welcome here.:)
No problem.
 

Smady

Smash Master
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Messages
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Nine clones?! Oh my god! That's never going to happen, if it does there'll be some heads rolling at Nintendo.
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
....Bomberman still isnt even on the updated list, shame, shame....
I update daily, so I'll probably get around to Bomerman eventually. He's on my list - somewhere between Master Chief and Barney the Dinosaur.

The way I look at it, at the current moment, a professional Shiek vs a professional Bowser results in the Shiek being the favorite to win. Shiek easily racks up lots of damage in quick bursts. Bowser does damage equal to Shiek in fewer hits, but in more powerful bursts. But because Bowser is slower, Shiek is more likely to be able to throw Bowser off of the stage before he can counter because his weight (although heavier) isn't sufficiant enough to benefit him. But, if Bowser were to have increasesed weight and/or defenses, Shiek would have to get (virtually) double the amount of damage to get him off. This would help to balance out his slow speed and lag and, thus, making him a bigger threat. Now double is, of course, just an estimate. DK and Ganondorf could also benefit from the weight gain.

It also makes sense that small attacks (i.e. Shiek's needles) wouldn't cause harm if hitting his shell. Though, the thing Bowser needs more than any of this stuff is a spike.

As for Toad vs B.J. I, personally, would like to see Waluigi before either of them (Mario/Luigi vs Wario/Waluigi.) However, I have to side with Toad. He has been around longer and has actually been a playable character in several games (to my knowledge, B.J. only has Mario Kart DD.) Toad is more recognizable and has a bigger fanbase. Toad is just as much synonymous with the "Mario" games as the Italian brothers themselves.
I see what your saying, but in my experience Skeik's unfair advantage over slow characters like Bowser and D.K. has more to do with their inabilty to land attacks on speedy characters rather than a need for them to take more punishment. Maybe I just don't know any great Bowser players, but in my experience most Sheik players could take out two or three lives from an equally skilled Bowser player in the same time it takes Bowser to take out one life. However, once Melee's high tier characters are cut or nerfed Bowser won't be at nearly as much of a disadvantage.

I'm not too sure about Waluigi as his game experience is limited Mario spinoffs like the Party and Sports games. If he were to appear in a (for lack of a better term) "real" Mario game, I might feel differently.

Toad is synonomous with the Mario series, to be sure. But does he have the same potential for a paint brush weilding character like BJ? I'm not so sure.


Like I said, he is likely...but not very likely. The only ones I believe to be more likely than him are Midna (with or without Wolf Link) and Tingle [Japanesse fans love him and since he's not a Japan-only character...he is (unfortuneately) a strong candidate.] Aside from Wolf Link, he is the most likely of all of Link's alternate forms.

Okay, to be fair, that is true. However, people seem to think that Twili Midna is a different person than Imp Midna. They are the same, so reguardless of the form, it would be Midna.

However, having the Imp form (in which we spent 98% of the game playing with) riding Wolf Link would be the best because it is the form that we are most familiar with AND offers the chance to test a new moveset possability; quadrupeds (as opposed to the Zelda clone for Twili and the Mewtwo clone for Solo Imp [Pikachu and Pichu are bipeds.]) I have a full (and I do mean full,) completely reasonable moveset of a Wolf Link/Midna team built up...(if you want to see it, just ask.) And that's just a fan-made one. Think what the designers would be able to do.

The point here is that we know Midna as the cute, little imp with a snaggletooth and helmet. To have her in any other form (even her true form) just wouldn't feel right and I, personally, would take it as a slap in the face from Sakurai saying "I don't care what the fans want, I want this."
Tingle more likely than WW Link? I have to disagree. The fact that Tingle's games are a no show outside Japan suggests that Nintendo has concluded (rightly or wrongly) that Tingle is a liability to their Western market. Conversly, WW link will very likely be a peace offering to all the Young link players who are prepared to burn effigies of Sakurai when their favorite character is cut from the roster.

I admit, not counting Pichu, Mewtwo is the most likely to be cut (even though I think Jigglypuff deserves it more.) One thing we share in common is our lack of knowledge about the newer generations, however; I do believe that he is still quite popular in the games. ( I could be wrong though.)
I would much rather see Jiggs cut from the roster, but unfortuanatly since she has been with the series since the beggining she is most likely safe. To be frank, I don't really care what they do with the Pokemon reps as long as they don't take up more than 4 spots on the roster.

I see no reason why Star Fox should get any less than four. Mario will likely have six, LoZ and Mon could (possibly) have five, and Metroid could (possibly) have four...so why not give Star Fox four?
There were five mario characters in melee: Mario, Doc, Peach, Bowser and Luigi. Yoshi has starred in his own games so (like DK) he has his own series that justifies his place in Smash. As soon as we see that Falco spin off series, maybe he too can get in without riding another character's coattails.


I like long Adventure games...though, RPGs and MMOs will always be my favorite.
It is hard to beat a solid RPG. I just prurchased Final Fantasy III and, aside from the lack of any real story, its looking pretty good from what little I've played so far.

Has anyone esle here played it? If you could reassure me that my money was well spent, I would appreciate it.


Personally, I would like to see Hector instead of the Knight (axes are cooler than swords.) But I don't believe his chances to be as good as I originally thought.
Hector is cool, no doubt. If they do put a rep for the GBA games, he would be my top choice.


Clones...I would actually be fine with that.
FINALLY, someone who doesn't flip out at the mention of the "c" word.


I wish I could, but (unfortuneately) I don't have a moveset on me. I could make one, but I don't know how accurate it would be (I've only played AW:DS.) Andy's special moves in the games are all repairing moves... To build a moveset for Andy IS a tempting challenge...
Maybe, but so to is Commander Kahn. Imagine, a moveset made entitrely of dance moves!


I still say it's likely that we'll only get 3 tops.
I don't disagree, that is a likely outcome. I was intentionally optimistic in my 3rd party character choices - going with the characters I thought Sakurai and Nintendo would like to include if they could. I have this sinking feeling that Snake may be the only 3rd party rep in the game.


Don't get me wrong. Had you asked me what I thought of Rayman a couple weeks ago, I would have told you that he is down around 6-7 on my third-party list. But the recent article in Nintendo Power made me re-evaluate my opinion about his chances. His only competition inside of Ubisoft is the Prince.
As a Ubisoft rep, yeah Rayman beats out the competition. Also, Ubisoft is trying to strengthen their relationship with Nintendo so what better way to do it than include their mascot in Brawl (which would instantly sell a butload of copies of Raving Rabbids 2)

I do believe I could. I would even be able to add a couple in...

Starting Characters:
Mario, Bowser, Peach, Link, Zelda, Pikachu, Samus, Kirby, Fox, Donkey Kong, Diddy, Ike, Ness, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Pit, Mii, Mr. Game & Watch, and Ice Climbers. (Total: 19)

Hidden (Non-clones):
Luigi, B.J., Midna/Wolf Link, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario, Zamus, Ridley, Metaknight, Wolf, Krystal, Marth, Wario, Olimar, Andy, Tom Nook, Snake, Sonic, and [Insert final third-party here.] (Total: 18)

Hidden (Clones):
Toad (Peach), Falco (Fox), Metroid Prime (Samus), DeDeDe (Kirby), K. Rool (Bowser), Black Knight (Ike), Ganondorf (Captain Falcon), Samurai Goroh (Marth), Poo/Lucas (Ness) (Total: 9 clones = 3 characters)

Mario - 6 (Mario, Toad, Bowser, Peach, Luigi, B.J.)
LoZ - 4 (Ganondorf, Midna, Link, Zelda (Wolf Link makes 5))
Pmon - 4 (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario)
Star Fox - 4 (Wolf, Fox, Krystal, Falco)
Kirby - 3 (DeDeDe, Meta, Kirby)
Metroid - 3 (Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus (aka Metroid Prime) (Zamus makes 4))
Third-Party - 3 (Sonic, Snake, [Insert])
DK - 3 (Donkey Kong, Diddy, K. Rool)
Earthbound - 2 (Ness, Lucas/Poo)
F-Zero - 2 (Falcon, Goroh)
Fire Emblem - 3 (Ike, Marth, BK)
Misc. - 9 (Pit, Mii, G&W, IC, Wario, Yoshi, Olimar, Andy, Nook)

And that's just one possability...

Now I know someone out there is going to argue my clone choices... Bring it on!
Great roster sir. I essecially like that I'm not the only person advocating the inclusion of clones for a change. But Toad a Peach clone? I think you'll have to explain that one a bit more.

I give your roster 9.8/10


Nine clones?! Oh my god! That's never going to happen, if it does there'll be some heads rolling at Nintendo.
Alright, I'm laying down the gauntlet. I want all you clone haters who share Smash Daddy's opinion to explain why you hate clones. Were characters like Luigi, Falco and Young link really so horrible in Melee? Don't they allow Sakurai's team to include far more characters than they otherwise would be able to? Give me your reasons why clones shouldn't be included and let's settle this once and for all!
 

Smady

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You paint a colourful picture of me, Wisey. :chuckle:

It won't be anywhere near nine. I respect there is a need for clones to add to the roster without going over in terms of time, but nine? There were semi-clones like Falco and Young Link, but they aren't clone clones. I mean those like Pichu, Roy, Dr.Mario etc. So I'm all for semi-clones, or basically-a-seperate-character-clones like Luigi, just not full-on, look-alike, desperately bottom-tier clones. Y'see?
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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I couldn't agree more.
WW Link is awsome! That is something everyone should agree on! ;) :) :cool: Luckily for us who want him, he stands a very likely chance, and I can't wait to play as him. I might actually change from maining Fox to WW Link. Something tells me Melee to Brawl will be somewhat of a lighter transition from SSB64 to Melee for me. In SSB64 I mained Kirby, with Ness, Capt. Falcon, and Mario on the side.

Then when switching to Melee I mained Link, with YLink, Fox (my main now), Falco, Peach, and Roy on the side. Total change, but I think I might do something like that again, because I only play as characters I am natural with, and are comfortable with (if I only went with everyone I was comfortable with, I'd play as everyone! ;) :laugh: :) ), regardless of their series.

A DS game, definitly. I like my F-Zero races a minutes at a time, so I'd prefer it on the handheld. Also, I'm worried that the Wii's motion controls wouldn't be reliable enough to handle all those hair pin turns. Regardless, I just want to race others over Wi-fi...
That is why we can select the sensitivity level, much like Metroid Prime: Hunters=problem solved. Wi-Fi or online play should just about be required from ALL games that have a multiplayer, other than just a few minigames, or it being more of just a extra feature to the game.

Yeah, Hunters just might be my favorite DS game as well. If only I didn't suck so badly at the online multiplayer...
I suck at it too Wiseguy, don't feel bad. It's sorta like Counter-Strike: Source in terms of online to me. I do decent (or in this case suck) most of the time, but when I get on a run I totally run over people 10 times as good as I am, like they were total n00bs (or play equal to the better players). That is my fav DS game, though I still need to get EBA, Mario Kart DS, and Super Mario 64DS.

He may be well known as a Smash character, but his purpose is to be the representative of the FE series, and since the game now has a worldwide fanbase it no monger makes sense for a character from a Japanese only FE game to take up a valuable spot on the roster.

As for the Black Knight, the fact that he could easily be inlcuded as a Ike clone means that he wouldn't be in direct competition with Marth (who would require an entirely different moveset from Ike).
I think most of the characters we'll se in Brawl will be heavily popular characters, within reason of course (no Master Chief, or any other 4th party character). Marth is reconizable, and unless Sakurai want Brawl to be totally set apart from Melee like a whole new series or something, I don't see this happening. Roy again, could go either way IMO, but Black Knight is way diffrent from Ike, and even if the Black Knight made it he wouldn't be a clone, though I could be wrong=Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf.

I beg to differ. Earthbound might be all that, but as far as most gamers are concerned, it was only one game - not a franchise (since only one game was released outside Japan). I've never played Earthbound, but I can't imagine how it could top Path of Radiance - that was the best RPG ever, as far as I'm concenred.
Final Fantasy VI=best RPG ever IMO. Then Earthbound, followed Chrono Trigger, FF VII, FF VII, FFX (never played IX so don't get on me), and Super Mario RPG follow closely behind, but PoR is still **** awsome! If you ever get a chance to get a SNES emulator, get FFVI (or III as it's called, 2, 3, and 5 weren't released worldwide until their GBA or DS version), Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, FFIV (or II as it's called), and SMRPG immidiately=no questions asked. They're all easy to find, and thankfully not ESA protected (other than SMRPG). ;)

Anyways, I haven't played that much of PoR, so I really wouldn't know how good it is. But Earthbound is still one of the greatest games ever, and everyone in the world should want Mother 3 to go worldwide. The only worse moves Nintendo did other than not making Mother 3 go worldwide is the N64 DD=helped the downfall of the GC towards the end of the GC's life, as well as letting Rare go the way they did=they were a awsome company.

Fair enough. I guess we're not really in disagreement after all.
Ya, pretty much the same thing from ALTTP, to OOT, to TP as with SSB64, to SSBM, to SSBB. Make a legendary game, make the series reach a new dimension (literally with OOT), and totally remake the series we all love (minus the Wiimote with Brawl).

My point was not to compare DBZ with Pokemon in quality, but to point out that popularity in and of itself does not make a franchise great - or worthy of a ton of reps in Brawl. Zelda may not make as much manoey as Pokemon, but its games consistently review better and most would say that Zelda games trump Pokemon in quality. Therefore, I see Zelda and Mario as more important franchises than Pokemon (though not by a very large margin) and therefore worthy of more reps in Brawl.
I say Zelda and Pokemon deserve equal reps. Both are critically acclaimed, both are huge series, and both have a strong fanbase. why favor one over another=??? No doubt Mario is the most important and the Mario franchise basically has 6 reps (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and sorta Yoshi, and the branched off Wario), and possibly even 7 reps. Seriously though, the Pokemon games have been the best selling handheld games on all of Nintendo's handheld systems (other than the original GB, in which Tetris made BANK!).

O and *cough*, no DBZ game will ever be as good as Pokemon or Zelda, unless Nintendo or some other awsome gaming company starts making them! :laugh:

Exactly. A few characters like these (and Kahn) will probaly be included as surprises. The chances of it being Kahn aren't that high, but someone like him is all but guarantedd.
I see classic characters over new ones, though I wonder what a DBA course would look like=intresting to say the least. I see Balloon Fight or Mach Rider making it as classics, over newer characters like Kahn and Tom Nook.

Still, if I turn out to be right, it will be pretty awesome. I'm probably the only one on Smashboards to predict Kahn...
Though I doubt it will happen, he'd be neat. Just don't get too optimistic. ;)

Like I said, how amny people will play as them is irrevivant to their wothiness for Brawl. All that matters is the importance of the series they represent and their importance to that series.
AC only real main character is your character=were upgraded into Mii's. There's your Nintendo and AC rep, and Falco is far more important to SF than Nook is to AC. AC is about you doing stuff, and the only time you ever see Nook is to sell him stuff, buy his stuff, or use cheats! :laugh:

Sometimes the majority are wrong, and this is one of those times. Maybe no one will play as Nook, but my guess is that the Animal Crossing series will get at least one rep and no one is better suited than Nook
.

AC humans=were upgraded into Mii's. There you have it! ;)

Havn't played Command yet, so I won't disagree.
Play it, or at least look it up! I've look for that for a while, bu like MP Hunters I won't find it anytime soon, unless I get the second last one! :laugh:

Star fox 64 didn't involve fighting either, and Falco was still included in Melee.
He played a major roll in both SF 64 and SF, and since Peppy is too old to fight, and Slippy is overly annoying, Falco is the best choice, plus he's got a side we've never seen of him, and he's probably the strongest fighter in a Arwing and out along with Fox (or now Krystal).

Again, the roster won't be decided by what most Smash fans want, only what Sakurai and his team decide. Maybe no one will play as Nook, but he could still very well be included.
But I still don't see Falco getting cut, he is much more popular and desired to return than Nook is in terms of popularity, and the want for him to join the Brawl cast. Simply put, Sakurai will primaraly select who we want, with a few random characters. Nook could very well be one of the random characters.

As for Resetti, he could be Nook's Final Smash Attack. Nook presses reset on a Gamecube and a Huge Ressetti pops out of the ground and begins wrecking havock. Either that or he calls in the Racoon Goons...
That would be very intresting, to say the least. However, Resetti has a crazy temper, and it would probably KO Nook, or anyone for that matter! :laugh:

I have to admit I kinda liked Episode III, though I now find the other two prequels painful to watch. Feel free to disagree, but I still think they should have cast a less sissy actor to play Vader. I think a young Keifer Sutherland would have been perfect, but that's just my opinion.
You definitely watch a lot of 24! :laugh: Take out the romance in II, change the corruption in the middle of episode I to something else, and problem fixed! Episode III is the best, no denying it, and how is Hayden Christensen sissy=??? Sure he sounds weak, but he goes crazy and kills thousands of people! Plus it all leads up to that, and that is **** awsome!

Yeah, his lack of a compelling moveset does hurt him. I suppose he could be another Mario-esque character (like from SSB 64) who relies on punches and kicks over swords and gimicks, but is that worth paying the big bucks to Namco? I doubt it.
Pac-Man is cool, but not in fighting games. Miyamoto likes him, but he's no fighter. Hopefully Pac-Man is not included, he'd make wierd noises, his new voice he's getting in his next game isn't going to be pretty, plus Sonic, Megaman!!!! (yelling it is so pleasing), Crono, and Geno are far better characters, are more popular, and are more desired. I don't see Namco making a move on this either, he's no fighter, and he wouldn't be the type of character you'd like to play as.

1. At least it SHOULD be.
Noone can disagree! *pulls out a Ak47 out of thin air*

2. Neither am I, though I'd be interested to check them out if they are localized.
It would be intresting, I have absoultely no idea watsoever his newer games are like!

3. The Ouedan games are all the rage right now in Japan, and EBA is emerging worldwide as a sleepr hit. I'm betting this series is only getting started.
Hopefully as awsome as it is, it gets better. I'm hoping it has the same success, or about the same success as another friggen awsome series, Guitar Heroes! However, unlike Guitar Heroes, EBA doesn't make you want to break stuff like a heavy metal band going crazy=awsome, as long as you don't break stuff! :laugh:

4. Apples own oranges! (Joking)
All those TV series (and their movies) are friggen awsome that you and I mentioned=no denying it.

Dixie would be a fine addition, but better than K.Rool? Not so sure.
I like Dixie more than K Rool, but K Rool is still a very intriging villian. Again, I'd hate for her and Diddy to be a team, if Sakurai does that I'll be p*****. I'd rather have just one of them alone, or even none of them at all over a Diddy/Dixie team.

Congrats Wiseguy on reaching more posts than McFox's Brawl prediction thread=well deserved. Way to be the most successful thread, I'm sure you'll get a big B00M in posts when (if, hopefully when) we get a new trailer. Just hope you add at least Mach Rider soon, and hope they make another Mach Rider game. Seriously, that game was a awsome mix of a F-Zero and Excite Bike style=amazing. At least you added Balloon Fight, because he is friggen awsome! Balloon Fight=a EXTRMELY addicting game. :)
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
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Montreal Canada
I have to disagree with your view on the Brawl character roster, though. Since any character can be given a powerful moveset, Sheik and Falco are nothing special.
Que? I happen to think that falcos moveset, and combos are BEAUTIFUL! Everything flows, shl is the best B move in the game, he's an incredibly strong agressive character, balanced out by his ****ty recovery, in many ways hes like captain falcon!

I like shieks moveset too :( I like needlegrabbing, and techchasing with dsmash/grab.. doing tilt combos that dont consist of fair over and over becuase I play against people with good DI....

I dunno I can see your point about shiek being really easy to beat people with, but it only applies to newbies. When you get into the big leagues with smash it goes wayyy beyond what character you picked. Like I said.. chudats Pichu could beat any shiek player in this thread.
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
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Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
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Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
I can hardly beleive it! For the last two days, we've seem updates that are not only new - but actually pretty great. Maybe its just because my expectations are lowering, but I think both the cracker launcher and Delfino plaza both look awesome. This "Super Smash Bros Brawl" game may actually be worth buying after all.

You paint a colourful picture of me, Wisey. :chuckle:

It won't be anywhere near nine. I respect there is a need for clones to add to the roster without going over in terms of time, but nine? There were semi-clones like Falco and Young Link, but they aren't clone clones. I mean those like Pichu, Roy, Dr.Mario etc. So I'm all for semi-clones, or basically-a-seperate-character-clones like Luigi, just not full-on, look-alike, desperately bottom-tier clones. Y'see?
Okay, maybe I was a little unfair to you, Smash Daddy, in retrospect. No offence intended, just trying to provoke a little debate.

I agree that clones should be as unique from the character they based on as possible - as much as I like playing as the Doc. But I think 9 clones isn't that unreasonable when you consider that we are making the jump from 27 characters to (maybe) 45.

That is why we can select the sensitivity level, much like Metroid Prime: Hunters=problem solved. Wi-Fi or online play should just about be required from ALL games that have a multiplayer, other than just a few minigames, or it being more of just a extra feature to the game.

I suck at it too Wiseguy, don't feel bad. It's sorta like Counter-Strike: Source in terms of online to me. I do decent (or in this case suck) most of the time, but when I get on a run I totally run over people 10 times as good as I am, like they were total n00bs (or play equal to the better players). That is my fav DS game, though I still need to get EBA, Mario Kart DS, and Super Mario 64DS.
Yeah, I definitely need to practice more at Hunters' multiplayer. At least I'm still feared among fellow Tetris DS players online! Come to think of it, I have to rank Teris as my favorite DS game. I must have put more hours of my life into its many brilliant modes than any other game - except Melee, that is.

I think most of the characters we'll se in Brawl will be heavily popular characters, within reason of course (no Master Chief, or any other 4th party character). Marth is reconizable, and unless Sakurai want Brawl to be totally set apart from Melee like a whole new series or something, I don't see this happening. Roy again, could go either way IMO, but Black Knight is way diffrent from Ike, and even if the Black Knight made it he wouldn't be a clone, though I could be wrong=Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf.
I think replacing Marth with Ike would set Brawl apart from the other games in the series - but in a good way. Again, having as many new characters as possible in Brawl is somwthong I'm hoping for. I'll miss many of Melee's characters, but I can alwys hold onto Melee after Brawl is finished.

By the way, what does everyone think of a holding Smash tournanments with all three Smash games (once Brawl is released and SSB64 makes it to the VC)? Think of it: the first round would having the players competing with the original Smash, the second round would be Melee and the final round would be Brawl.


Final Fantasy VI=best RPG ever IMO. Then Earthbound, followed Chrono Trigger, FF VII, FF VII, FFX (never played IX so don't get on me), and Super Mario RPG follow closely behind, but PoR is still **** awsome! If you ever get a chance to get a SNES emulator, get FFVI (or III as it's called, 2, 3, and 5 weren't released worldwide until their GBA or DS version), Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, FFIV (or II as it's called), and SMRPG immidiately=no questions asked. They're all easy to find, and thankfully not ESA protected (other than SMRPG). ;)

Anyways, I haven't played that much of PoR, so I really wouldn't know how good it is. But Earthbound is still one of the greatest games ever, and everyone in the world should want Mother 3 to go worldwide. The only worse moves Nintendo did other than not making Mother 3 go worldwide is the N64 DD=helped the downfall of the GC towards the end of the GC's life, as well as letting Rare go the way they did=they were a awsome company.
I suspect I may have missed out on some of the greatest RPGs by failing to purchase a SNES. I'll have to check out FF V and VI on GBA after I complete FFIII.

Incidentily, FFIII has possibily the most laughibly shallow plot in RPG history - and I can't get enough of it!


Ya, pretty much the same thing from ALTTP, to OOT, to TP as with SSB64, to SSBM, to SSBB. Make a legendary game, make the series reach a new dimension (literally with OOT), and totally remake the series we all love (minus the Wiimote with Brawl).
The very thought of Brawl controlled with the Wii-mote makes me cringe. To be honest, I'm still a bit worried about it. Have you noticed that there is a Wii-mote icon next to "How to Play" on Dojo?


I say Zelda and Pokemon deserve equal reps. Both are critically acclaimed, both are huge series, and both have a strong fanbase. why favor one over another=??? No doubt Mario is the most important and the Mario franchise basically has 6 reps (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and sorta Yoshi, and the branched off Wario), and possibly even 7 reps. Seriously though, the Pokemon games have been the best selling handheld games on all of Nintendo's handheld systems (other than the original GB, in which Tetris made BANK!).

O and *cough*, no DBZ game will ever be as good as Pokemon or Zelda, unless Nintendo or some other awsome gaming company starts making them! :laugh:
Since Yoshi and Wario have starred in their own spin off series and have different icons (as opposed to the Mario series Mushroom) I don't think Sakurai considers them Mario reps.

As for why Zelda should get more representaion thatn Pokemon, I still think that Zelda has been a more important series, overall. Sure, the original Pokemon may have been groundbreaking initially, but every game since has been pretty much the same. Also, the console games have been somewhat lacking in depth. Zelda games have consistently set the standard for what a game should be - from the NES to the Wii and everywhere in between. With Pokemon, you either love the series or you hate it. With Zelda, you either love or you're insane.


I see classic characters over new ones, though I wonder what a DBA course would look like=intresting to say the least. I see Balloon Fight or Mach Rider making it as classics, over newer characters like Kahn and Tom Nook.
Maybe one or two retros will get in (not including Pit) to appease rero gamers, But I generally consider characters from currently thriving series like Animal Crossing to be far more worthy than characters who havn't starred in a major relese in over a decade.

AC only real main character is your character=were upgraded into Mii's. There's your Nintendo and AC rep, and Falco is far more important to SF than Nook is to AC. AC is about you doing stuff, and the only time you ever see Nook is to sell him stuff, buy his stuff, or use cheats! :laugh:
Miis will probably be the new player controlled characters in AC Wii, but we don't know that for sure. In the mean time, who will represent this awesome and ridiculously popular series? Nook is essentially the game's villian, and by far the most recagnizable of the Animals.


He played a major roll in both SF 64 and SF, and since Peppy is too old to fight, and Slippy is overly annoying, Falco is the best choice, plus he's got a side we've never seen of him, and he's probably the strongest fighter in a Arwing and out along with Fox (or now Krystal).
But I still don't see Falco getting cut, he is much more popular and desired to return than Nook is in terms of popularity, and the want for him to join the Brawl cast. Simply put, Sakurai will primaraly select who we want, with a few random characters. Nook could very well be one of the random characters.
A major role in SF 64? Come one. He basically just flew around in his ship and made smart aleck remarks. At least Slippy crashed on a planet (a major plot devlopment) and helped you beat bosses by displaying their health. I'd definitly put Falco ahead of Peppy or Slippy - but not Krystal or Wolf given their importance to the more recent games. And certainly not an awesome slum lord like Nook who represents an entire series on his own.

You definitely watch a lot of 24! :laugh: Take out the romance in II, change the corruption in the middle of episode I to something else, and problem fixed! Episode III is the best, no denying it, and how is Hayden Christensen sissy=??? Sure he sounds weak, but he goes crazy and kills thousands of people! Plus it all leads up to that, and that is **** awsome!
That wimp spent most of the trilogy pouting and crying for his mommy. Very un-Vader like.

Sure, he killed Mace Windew (by using a coward's attack when his back was turned) and killed a lot of 10 year olds in the third movie, but I couldn't say he came close to the sheer awesomeness of the original Vader.

Congrats Wiseguy on reaching more posts than McFox's Brawl prediction thread=well deserved. Way to be the most successful thread, I'm sure you'll get a big B00M in posts when (if, hopefully when) we get a new trailer. Just hope you add at least Mach Rider soon, and hope they make another Mach Rider game. Seriously, that game was a awsome mix of a F-Zero and Excite Bike style=amazing. At least you added Balloon Fight, because he is friggen awsome! Balloon Fight=a EXTRMELY addicting game. :)
Thanks, Johnknight1. I'll bet money that we see a new trailer next month at E3. They can't keep us waiting forever!

Que? I happen to think that falcos moveset, and combos are BEAUTIFUL! Everything flows, shl is the best B move in the game, he's an incredibly strong agressive character, balanced out by his ****ty recovery, in many ways hes like captain falcon!

I like shieks moveset too :( I like needlegrabbing, and techchasing with dsmash/grab.. doing tilt combos that dont consist of fair over and over becuase I play against people with good DI....

I dunno I can see your point about shiek being really easy to beat people with, but it only applies to newbies. When you get into the big leagues with smash it goes wayyy beyond what character you picked. Like I said.. chudats Pichu could beat any shiek player in this thread.
Falco and Sheik are powerful characters (some might say TOO powerful...) but that was a result of the way they were programed into the game, not becuase Sheik and Falco were guaranteed to be great fighters. It could have just as easily be Mewtwo and Bowser who were given the broken movesets.

Falco's powerful attacks balanced by his poor recovery? I thought that his >B actually works quite great for a recovery. Regardless, where that leave someone like Doctor Mario who has virtually no recovery? By your logic, he would need a moveset even more powerful that Falco's to achieve balance.

Do you really think that the Smash team intende to make Sheik as powerful as they did? It seesm to me that they intended to give Shiek and Zelda equal strengths and weaknesses - but that didn't work out so well.

Yes, most of the time in tournaments and the like the player with the greater skill wins regardless of their character choice. But in a match with equally skilled players, a Sheik player will always have a huge advantage over Pichu and other lower tier characters.
 

Smady

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
3,307
Location
K Rool Avenue
Okay, maybe I was a little unfair to you, Smash Daddy, in retrospect. No offence intended, just trying to provoke a little debate.

I agree that clones should be as unique from the character they based on as possible - as much as I like playing as the Doc. But I think 9 clones isn't that unreasonable when you consider that we are making the jump from 27 characters to (maybe) 45.
Yep, I understand that there will be clones, but with every new character that is a clone a collective sigh is made by the community. It's not like "Great! Wolf's in as a clone!", it's "Wow, they made Wolf a clone then..."

Getting clones will never be something to root for. Sure, it'll probably happen, but it's a problem more than a solution, as clones need to be separated more with every game to satisfy the community. As is what happened with Luigi, what will happen with Ganondorf and in the game after 'Brawl will happen to any clones. Eventually the characters will branch off because of enough new stuff with the progression of each game, but new clones are the very worst.

Disappointment, acceptance, depression, suicide. This is the path of those who play as clones.
 

Arteen

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,627
Location
Vault
First-off, I think that every character with a unique moveset will return in Brawl.

Mario Series
1) Mario (Dr. Mario as an alternative costume)
2) Luigi
3) Peach
4) Bowser

There are no other Mario-series characters worth adding (Besides the spinoff ones). Toad has no role in the series other than messenger. Daisy, Waluigi, and Toad are only significant in Party or Sports spinoff games. I'd rather have more series represented than add more Mario characters. Bowser Jr. isn't significant enough to warrant adding another Mario character to the roster. No FLUDD Mario for the same reason, it's still Mario, and because Sunshine was that significant of a game. I doubt Paper Mario will make it in, but PM would have potential for a more unique moveset. I still would rather include more series and few variations on one character.

Yoshi Spinoff Series
5) Yoshi

Wario Spinoff Series
6) Wario

Donkey Kong Spinoff Series
7) Donkey Kong
8) Diddy Kong

Maybe add K. Rool, but he's never appealed to me as a character. If Dixie is in, she would only be alongside Diddy, IC-style.

Zelda Series
9) Link (TP-styled, but not significantly changed from the original or Melee)
10 & 11) Zelda/Shiek (Zelda will be TP-styled, and Shiek will have an updated look. I see no good reason to remove Shiek. She is a fun, unique character, she was popular in Melee, and I think the Brawl team can refine the character-switching to be more integral to the character(s). So what that she never transformed into Shiek in TP? Besides, by the same argument, she can no longer use Din's Fire, Faore's Wind, or Nayru's Love, as those weren't in TP either. It's not a big deal to keep Shiek in. Also, so what if she's not currently a significant character to the Zelda franchise? She was a significant character in one of the greatest games of all time, OoT, and she is still one of Zelda's moves, and not a separate character.)
12) Ganondorf (TP-styled, or some amalgam of different styles. He will have a brand-new moveset, with either his Melee moveset moved to a different, more fitting character [F-Zero series?] or simply removed entirely.)
13) WW Link (The return of a Young Link, Luigified. He will have more moves from his series of games.)

No Tingle. He is not a significant character. So what if he has his own Japan-only games? He doesn't seem significant, appealing, or interesting enough to warrant adding another Zelda slot for him. Give him another trophy or stick him in a level again, but no more.

No Zant. Zant is a one-shot villain. He has a great character design, but he just isn't significant enough. Ganondorf was the real villain anyway.

Maybe Midna. I think Midna (imp form) would be the most deserving Zelda character to add (not just because she's from a recent game; I'm considering the whole series.), but she isn't worth another Zelda slot. While she may be more important to the whole of the Zelda series than Shiek, the differences are that Shiek is one of Zelda's moves and not a wholly separate character, Shiek is already an established character in the SSB series, Shiek is a popular character in the SSB series, and Shiek does have a unique moveset anyway.

Starfox Series
14) Fox
15) Falco or Wolf (The only reason to add Wolf in is because he's a villain. Unfortunately, he has the same build as Fox. Although he could be given Assault-ish weaponry, I don't consider Assualt to be a significant [or fun] game. I'm leaning on Falco staying because he is already established and popular in Melee, and he has a slightly different build from Fox, considering he's a bird. I suspect either will make it, and whoever makes it will be Luigified.)

Maybe Krystal. I hate Krystal, but unfortunately she's significant in the newer Starfox games. The only reason she has a chance is because she has that staff. If she makes it in, she'll have the staff to give her a unique moveset.

Starfox simply doesn't deserve four character slots. Adventures was no more than a decent game, but Assualt was just awful, and I haven't played Command. Starfox 64 is the most (only) significant game in the series.

Pokemon Series
16) Pikachu
17) Jigglypuff (Jiggly stays as she has a unique moveset and is one of the original twelve.)
18) Mewtwo (Mewtwo stays as it has a unique moveset and it was/is a significant character in the Pokemon series. He is also the closest Pokemon has to a villain. I think it was only unpopular in Melee because it was so weak.)
19) Lucario (I haven't followed Pokemon since the first games, so I don't know what other Pokemon are deserving of slots, but Lucario seems to be popular and has potential. In addition, I think it has a great character design. I can't say the same about almost every other new Pokemon.)

Pichu will be cut. It just isn't a significant character, and it is a clone. I don't think Pokemon deserves more slots. Maybe one more, if any.

I don't think Meowth is deserving, as it is only popular as a bipedal, talking anime character. I don't want the anime character in Brawl, so if it is Brawl, it will be a generic Pokemon on all four legs, and I don't see that happening. Jiggly is in because although it's popularity may have been due to the anime, but the character didn't require any changes from its form in the video games.

No Deoxys. Personally, I think it's ugly and unappealing, but it does have potential. I'd rather see characters from different series across more systems than just adding new characters.

Fire Emblem Series
20) Marth or Marth-esque character (I can see Marth staying, as he is a popular, established character in Melee, and he is significant to the FE series as the first Lord.)
21) Some other FE character (If it is a swordsman, it will be a Luigified Roy-like clone. Hopefully it will be something else since FE has more than swords as weapons.)

There's not much I can say because I am not familiar with the series. I don't think it deserves more than two character slots. Popular FE characters seem to be similarly-built blue-haired swordsmen. From what I understand, there are more significant characters than Roy, so I expect him to be cut.

Metroid Series
22 & 23) Samus/Zamus (I hate the Zero-Suit Samus look and I wish that they didn't put it in Brawl. I didn't like it in Zero Mission and I hated it when Retro replaced the great-looking realistic Samus from MP1 with the cartoony Zamus in MP2. Anyway, I expect Samus to have some new armor models along with just recolors.)
24) Ridley (I don't know how the team would make him fit [I know he can be shrunk-down Bowser-like, but the wings are the problem], but I expect them to put him in somehow.

No other Metroid characters deserve it by far. Dark Samus could have a very unique, floaty moveset, but I don't think it deserves it.

F-Zero Series
25) Captain Falcon

I don't think the series is significant enough to warrant more characters. Maybe one more from the first game (or from the second game, as a strech) such as Goroh or Pico. I could see one of them adopting a Luigified Ganondorf moveset.

Earthbound
26) Ness

I don't think the series is significant enough to warrant more characters, and Ness is already an established character in both SSB games.

Ice Climber
27) Ice Climbers (Why get rid of such wonderful, unique characters?)

Game & Watch Series
28) Mr. Game & Watch (Again, why? He's also a significant Nintendo character.)

Kirby Series
29) Kirby
30) Meta Knight
31) King Dedede (He is a significant character in the Kirby series, and a villain as well.)

I don't think the Kirby series needs any more. Dedede is pushing it, I think.

Kid Icarus Series
32) Pit (This series doesn't need any more.)


Pikmin Series
33) Captain Olimar ([No Louie] Olimar is a great character from a great new series, and I can see him having a great Pikmin-based moveset. Also, he may be three inches tall, but he can be scaled up effortlessly, so that's no problem.)

Golden Sun Series
34) Isaac of Felix (Not both, as they were essentially clones in their own games, but both characters are just as significant to the story, so one of them should make it. They would make a great magic-based swordsmen.)

The Golden Sun series is a great pair of GBA games and it is certainly worthy of representation. It is also by Camelot [developers of Mario Golf and Tennis], a Nintendo second-party. I don't think more than one GS character will make it, but I think it is deserving of another. SSB is in need of more female characters, so Jenna, Sheba, or Mia would make a great addition, with each character being very significant to the series. Also, they all wear modest clothing (**cough*Zamus*cough**), and most characters in the series have great character designs. Alex would make a great villain, but I'd rather have Jenna, Mia, or Sheba first, and I don't think the series will get three slots.

Other
35) Mii (I think Mii's would be hilarious. Have their speed, power, etc. all vary based on their height and weight, but in a way that is still balanced. Miis are iconic of Nintendo.)

Third-Party Series
36) Solid Snake (I personally think other third-party characters are more deserving, but Snake is still an interesting character at least.)
37) Megaman (He is easily one of the most worthy 3rd-party characters, and he started out on a Nintendo console. His character design fits perfectly into SSB.)
38) Sonic (Mario's greatest rival, and his [Genesis] games were amazing. No other Sonic characters playable though.)

Simon Belmont and Bomberman also have decent chances, but there is only so much room for third-party characters.

That leaves a good amount of room left, as I certainly expect SSBB to have more characters than this. I expect a few random characters (like Pit and the ICs) and a few Maybes from above, along with clones.
 

Ferro De Lupe

Smash Lord
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
1,047
Location
Shawnee, OK
I see what your saying, but in my experience Skeik's unfair advantage over slow characters like Bowser and D.K. has more to do with their inabilty to land attacks on speedy characters rather than a need for them to take more punishment. Maybe I just don't know any great Bowser players, but in my experience most Sheik players could take out two or three lives from an equally skilled Bowser player in the same time it takes Bowser to take out one life. However, once Melee's high tier characters are cut or nerfed Bowser won't be at nearly as much of a disadvantage.

I'm not too sure about Waluigi as his game experience is limited Mario spinoffs like the Party and Sports games. If he were to appear in a (for lack of a better term) "real" Mario game, I might feel differently.

Toad is synonomous with the Mario series, to be sure. But does he have the same potential for a paint brush weilding character like BJ? I'm not so sure.
I was really just using Shiek as an example... I actually know a great Bowser player. He didn't play against Shiek (low tier tournament,) but the DK he fought was absolutely destroyed, though...he was destroyed by a Pichu in the next match. It's not just the high tier characters that beatdown on Bowser (otherwise he wouldn't be at the near bottom of the list.) A spike and a better jump (instead of more wieght/defenses) would severely help him out a lot.

I'm not saying Waluigi deserves it more than them, I just like him more and would rather see him.

Tingle more likely than WW Link? I have to disagree. The fact that Tingle's games are a no show outside Japan suggests that Nintendo has concluded (rightly or wrongly) that Tingle is a liability to their Western market. Conversly, WW link will very likely be a peace offering to all the Young link players who are prepared to burn effigies of Sakurai when their favorite character is cut from the roster.
I thought I put a "possibly" in front of Tingle... Apparently not...

I really don't care if Young Link makes it or not. I mained as him for the longest time before I switched to Luigi, and I still play as him every now and then. As long as Midna makes it (preferable riding Wolf Link) then I'll be happy.

I would much rather see Jiggs cut from the roster, but unfortuanatly since she has been with the series since the beggining she is most likely safe. To be frank, I don't really care what they do with the Pokemon reps as long as they don't take up more than 4 spots on the roster.
That's something I can agree on.

There were five mario characters in melee: Mario, Doc, Peach, Bowser and Luigi. Yoshi has starred in his own games so (like DK) he has his own series that justifies his place in Smash. As soon as we see that Falco spin off series, maybe he too can get in without riding another character's coattails.
Again, I really don't care if he makes it (not a fan of Falco or Star Fox in general.) But I just hate how people claim that Star Fox should only have three when it is very possible that there will be four characters with four different fighting techniques.


It is hard to beat a solid RPG. I just prurchased Final Fantasy III and, aside from the lack of any real story, its looking pretty good from what little I've played so far.

Has anyone esle here played it? If you could reassure me that my money was well spent, I would appreciate it.
I haven't played it, and I probably won't. I don't have a lot of money so I can't go buying every single game I want to buy. That's why my knowledge of certain franchises is limited; lack of experience with the games.

Hector is cool, no doubt. If they do put a rep for the GBA games, he would be my top choice.
He also represents a major milestone; first international game. That gives him a bit more of an argument. (I'm not 100% sure on this one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

FINALLY, someone who doesn't flip out at the mention of the "c" word.
I have always liked the idea of clones. Why everyone is so opposed to them I have yet to be told.

Maybe, but so to is Commander Kahn. Imagine, a moveset made entitrely of dance moves!
Touche'

I don't disagree, that is a likely outcome. I was intentionally optimistic in my 3rd party character choices - going with the characters I thought Sakurai and Nintendo would like to include if they could. I have this sinking feeling that Snake may be the only 3rd party rep in the game.
Don't even joke like that... *Wants Sonic in Brawl.*

As a Ubisoft rep, yeah Rayman beats out the competition. Also, Ubisoft is trying to strengthen their relationship with Nintendo so what better way to do it than include their mascot in Brawl (which would instantly sell a butload of copies of Raving Rabbids 2)
As I stated earlier... His chances are on par with Megaman (but still under Sonic.)

Great roster sir. I essecially like that I'm not the only person advocating the inclusion of clones for a change. But Toad a Peach clone? I think you'll have to explain that one a bit more.

I give your roster 9.8/10
It was sort of a "spur of the moment" kind of decision. I was having a tricky time getting to the fourty slot and needed another clone to finish it off. Toad seemed like a logical choice simply because Peach uses a lot of moves that Toad is more than capable of doing (turnips, front smash, umbrella, etc.) Replace Peach's "Butt Bomb" with Toad's rocket launcher and have him use a mushroom (instead of a toad) for his counter.


Toad has no role in the series other than messenger. Daisy, Waluigi, and Toad are only significant in Party or Sports spinoff games.
I fell out of my chair laughing at that. Toad is more worthy than any other (Mario) character out there (with BJ at a very close second.) Don't believe me? Go play some past Mario games... Toad has more significance than you might think.

1) she's from a recent game; I'm considering the whole series
2) she isn't worth another Zelda slot
3) Shiek is one of Zelda's moves
4) wholly separate character
5) Shiek is already an established character in the SSB series
6) Shiek is a popular character in the SSB series
7) Shiek does have a unique moveset anyway
You, sir, have just earned my wrath!

1) If Shiek, a rather unimportant character to the series as a whole, can get in from one game...Midna can too.
2) Yea, you're right. Even though at least 90% of Twilight Princess' story revolved around Midna, she jsut isn't important enough for her own slot. [/sarcasm]
3) An easily replaced move.
4) He may not have his own slot, but he IS a completely different character.
5) Wrong. Mario is established to the series. Link is established to the series. Jigglypuff is established to the series. Unless he appears in Brawl, Shiek is established to Melee and only Melee.
6) Because he's such a cheap/easy character to learn to be good with. Very few people play as Shiek because they actually like him as a character.
7) Invalid argument. The Happy Mask Salesman could have a unique moveset, does that make him worthy too?

Maybe Krystal. I hate Krystal, but unfortunately she's significant in the newer Starfox games. The only reason she has a chance is because she has that staff. If she makes it in, she'll have the staff to give her a unique moveset.
Is that the only reason you can think of? Wow...

1) Staff-based moveset introduced
2) Female fighter
3) Fox's Peach
4) Unique moveset <-- That's yours.
5) Unique appeal
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
Yep, I understand that there will be clones, but with every new character that is a clone a collective sigh is made by the community. It's not like "Great! Wolf's in as a clone!", it's "Wow, they made Wolf a clone then..."

Getting clones will never be something to root for. Sure, it'll probably happen, but it's a problem more than a solution, as clones need to be separated more with every game to satisfy the community. As is what happened with Luigi, what will happen with Ganondorf and in the game after 'Brawl will happen to any clones. Eventually the characters will branch off because of enough new stuff with the progression of each game, but new clones are the very worst.

Disappointment, acceptance, depression, suicide. This is the path of those who play as clones.
Oh come now, clones aren't that bad. Take Dr. Mario for example: he's about as clonish as you can get. Yet the majority of Mario players (myself included) see him as a great inclusion because he alows players to choose the Mario they prefer. I sincerely hopw that we see clones in Brawl, because it will mean that we get more total characters than we otherwise would have.


First-off, I think that every character with a unique moveset will return in Brawl.
This is arguable, but not out of the question. Welcome to my thread, by the way.


Mario Series
1) Mario (Dr. Mario as an alternative costume)
2) Luigi
3) Peach
4) Bowser

There are no other Mario-series characters worth adding (Besides the spinoff ones). Toad has no role in the series other than messenger. Daisy, Waluigi, and Toad are only significant in Party or Sports spinoff games. I'd rather have more series represented than add more Mario characters. Bowser Jr. isn't significant enough to warrant adding another Mario character to the roster. No FLUDD Mario for the same reason, it's still Mario, and because Sunshine was that significant of a game. I doubt Paper Mario will make it in, but PM would have potential for a more unique moveset. I still would rather include more series and few variations on one character.
I have to diagree. Baby Bowser was the main villian in the two most high profile Mario games: Super Mario Sunshine and New Super Mario Bros. That makes him siginifant enough in my book, though you may disagree.

Paper mario could, very well, be given a unique moveset. But given the ease with which a cloned PM could be included that seems a bit more likely in my view. He could have a few unique moves like Luigi, the way I see it.

Yoshi Spinoff Series
5) Yoshi

Wario Spinoff Series
6) Wario

Donkey Kong Spinoff Series
7) Donkey Kong
8) Diddy Kong

Maybe add K. Rool, but he's never appealed to me as a character. If Dixie is in, she would only be alongside Diddy, IC-style.
No disagreemnt, though I think K. Rool stands a fair shot - in spite of the fact that he is the lamest, most generic villian in history.

No to Diddy/Dixie tag team in Brawl. If that happened, it would signal the end of the universe.


Zelda Series
9) Link (TP-styled, but not significantly changed from the original or Melee)
10 & 11) Zelda/Shiek (Zelda will be TP-styled, and Shiek will have an updated look. I see no good reason to remove Shiek. She is a fun, unique character, she was popular in Melee, and I think the Brawl team can refine the character-switching to be more integral to the character(s). So what that she never transformed into Shiek in TP? Besides, by the same argument, she can no longer use Din's Fire, Faore's Wind, or Nayru's Love, as those weren't in TP either. It's not a big deal to keep Shiek in. Also, so what if she's not currently a significant character to the Zelda franchise? She was a significant character in one of the greatest games of all time, OoT, and she is still one of Zelda's moves, and not a separate character.)
12) Ganondorf (TP-styled, or some amalgam of different styles. He will have a brand-new moveset, with either his Melee moveset moved to a different, more fitting character [F-Zero series?] or simply removed entirely.)
13) WW Link (The return of a Young Link, Luigified. He will have more moves from his series of games.)

No Tingle. He is not a significant character. So what if he has his own Japan-only games? He doesn't seem significant, appealing, or interesting enough to warrant adding another Zelda slot for him. Give him another trophy or stick him in a level again, but no more.

No Zant. Zant is a one-shot villain. He has a great character design, but he just isn't significant enough. Ganondorf was the real villain anyway.

Maybe Midna. I think Midna (imp form) would be the most deserving Zelda character to add (not just because she's from a recent game; I'm considering the whole series.), but she isn't worth another Zelda slot. While she may be more important to the whole of the Zelda series than Shiek, the differences are that Shiek is one of Zelda's moves and not a wholly separate character, Shiek is already an established character in the SSB series, Shiek is a popular character in the SSB series, and Shiek does have a unique moveset anyway.
Sheik over Midna?! This means WAR! A quote war, that is.

Zelda will be TP-styled, and Shiek will have an updated look. I see no good reason to remove Shiek.
How about the fact that they are different individuals, from different certuries? TP Zelda can no more transform into Sheik than Tetra

She is a fun, unique character, she was popular in Melee, and I think the Brawl team can refine the character-switching to be more integral to the character(s).
Sheik is unique in that she is the most ill conceived character idea in history. Intended as an equal half of Zelda, she winded up replacing her entirely due to her horrendously broken and cheap moveset. The reason she is "fun" is because she gives the player an unfair advantage over the competition. Finally, Sheik isn't popular - her overpowered moveset is.

So what that she never transformed into Shiek in TP? Besides, by the same argument, she can no longer use Din's Fire, Faore's Wind, or Nayru's Love, as those weren't in TP either. It's not a big deal to keep Shiek in.
Exactly. No Din's Fire, no Faore's Wind, no Nayru's Love and most of all - NO SHEIK. Those are all from OoT, a game in which TP Zelda did not appear. TP Zelda will be undoubtubly be given a new moveset that reflects the game in which she appears - meaning light magic and his rapier.


Also, so what if she's not currently a significant character to the Zelda franchise? She was a significant character in one of the greatest games of all time, OoT, and she is still one of Zelda's moves, and not a separate character.)
Sheik is by far one of the most irrelivant characters in the entire series. She appeared as Zelda's alter ego in a single game. Big whoop. At least Link's Uncle from ALttP was an actual person - that makes him even more worthy of being in Brawl than Sheik.

You may consider Sheik to be "one of Zelda's moves" but in fact her moveset would be just as time consumming to program into the game than any other unique character.

Maybe Midna. I think Midna (imp form) would be the most deserving Zelda character to add (not just because she's from a recent game; I'm considering the whole series.), but she isn't worth another Zelda slot. While she may be more important to the whole of the Zelda series than Shiek, the differences are that Shiek is one of Zelda's moves and not a wholly separate character, Shiek is already an established character in the SSB series, Shiek is a popular character in the SSB series, and Shiek does have a unique moveset anyway.
Midna is lightyears ahead of Sheik in Brawl worthiness. She was THE most important character in the events of Twilight Princess - the most hyped (and deservedly so) Zelda game in years. Sheik got in Melee after appearing as Zelda's disguise in the most high profile game up until that point: OoT. Midna in Brawl is no different.

Starfox Series
14) Fox
15) Falco or Wolf (The only reason to add Wolf in is because he's a villain. Unfortunately, he has the same build as Fox. Although he could be given Assault-ish weaponry, I don't consider Assualt to be a significant [or fun] game. I'm leaning on Falco staying because he is already established and popular in Melee, and he has a slightly different build from Fox, considering he's a bird. I suspect either will make it, and whoever makes it will be Luigified.)

Maybe Krystal. I hate Krystal, but unfortunately she's significant in the newer Starfox games. The only reason she has a chance is because she has that staff. If she makes it in, she'll have the staff to give her a unique moveset.

Starfox simply doesn't deserve four character slots. Adventures was no more than a decent game, but Assualt was just awful, and I haven't played Command. Starfox 64 is the most (only) significant game in the series.
I agree that three reps is a fair number for the SF series, though I think Krystal's chances are far more likely than you give her credit. She (like Wolf) has played a bigger role in the more recent games than Falco and she is fairly popular.


Pokemon Series
16) Pikachu
17) Jigglypuff (Jiggly stays as she has a unique moveset and is one of the original twelve.)
18) Mewtwo (Mewtwo stays as it has a unique moveset and it was/is a significant character in the Pokemon series. He is also the closest Pokemon has to a villain. I think it was only unpopular in Melee because it was so weak.)
19) Lucario (I haven't followed Pokemon since the first games, so I don't know what other Pokemon are deserving of slots, but Lucario seems to be popular and has potential. In addition, I think it has a great character design. I can't say the same about almost every other new Pokemon.)

Pichu will be cut. It just isn't a significant character, and it is a clone. I don't think Pokemon deserves more slots. Maybe one more, if any.

I don't think Meowth is deserving, as it is only popular as a bipedal, talking anime character. I don't want the anime character in Brawl, so if it is Brawl, it will be a generic Pokemon on all four legs, and I don't see that happening. Jiggly is in because although it's popularity may have been due to the anime, but the character didn't require any changes from its form in the video games.

No Deoxys. Personally, I think it's ugly and unappealing, but it does have potential. I'd rather see characters from different series across more systems than just adding new characters.
I'm tired of debating about the Pokemon series, so I'll leave this one alone. If your prediction were to come true, I wouldn't shed a tear that Mewtwo was included over Deoxys - though I suspect the later would make a more interesting addition to the series.

Fire Emblem Series
20) Marth or Marth-esque character (I can see Marth staying, as he is a popular, established character in Melee, and he is significant to the FE series as the first Lord.)
21) Some other FE character (If it is a swordsman, it will be a Luigified Roy-like clone. Hopefully it will be something else since FE has more than swords as weapons.)

There's not much I can say because I am not familiar with the series. I don't think it deserves more than two character slots. Popular FE characters seem to be similarly-built blue-haired swordsmen. From what I understand, there are more significant characters than Roy, so I expect him to be cut.
Does "Marth-esque character" include Ike? If so, then I agree. I disagree that Marth is currently relivant to the FE franchise. He hasn't appeared in a game in over a decade and none of his games have ever been released outside Japan.


Metroid Series
22 & 23) Samus/Zamus (I hate the Zero-Suit Samus look and I wish that they didn't put it in Brawl. I didn't like it in Zero Mission and I hated it when Retro replaced the great-looking realistic Samus from MP1 with the cartoony Zamus in MP2. Anyway, I expect Samus to have some new armor models along with just recolors.)
24) Ridley (I don't know how the team would make him fit [I know he can be shrunk-down Bowser-like, but the wings are the problem], but I expect them to put him in somehow.

No other Metroid characters deserve it by far. Dark Samus could have a very unique, floaty moveset, but I don't think it deserves it.
I agree that Sakurai may rule that DS doesn't deserve a unique moveset. A cloned moveset seems far more likely.


F-Zero Series
25) Captain Falcon

I don't think the series is significant enough to warrant more characters. Maybe one more from the first game (or from the second game, as a strech) such as Goroh or Pico. I could see one of them adopting a Luigified Ganondorf moveset.

Earthbound
26) Ness

I don't think the series is significant enough to warrant more characters, and Ness is already an established character in both SSB games.
I agree, for the most part (esspecially making Goroh a Falcon clone) but I think Sakurai will at the very least throw a bone to the Earthbound fans and put in Poo (or maybe Lucas) as a Ness clone. Those people have suffered enough, and I hate to see this add to their pain.


Ice Climber
27) Ice Climbers (Why get rid of such wonderful, unique characters?)

Game & Watch Series
28) Mr. Game & Watch (Again, why? He's also a significant Nintendo character.)
Why get rid of these wonderful, unique characters? Becuase of the many other unqiue characters who deserve a chance at appearing in Smash Bros. ICs and G&W are awesome, no doubt, but I think paying tribute to them in Melee was enough.


Kirby Series
29) Kirby
30) Meta Knight
31) King Dedede (He is a significant character in the Kirby series, and a villain as well.)

I don't think the Kirby series needs any more. Dedede is pushing it, I think.

Kid Icarus Series
32) Pit (This series doesn't need any more.)


Pikmin Series
33) Captain Olimar ([No Louie] Olimar is a great character from a great new series, and I can see him having a great Pikmin-based moveset. Also, he may be three inches tall, but he can be scaled up effortlessly, so that's no problem.)

Golden Sun Series
34) Isaac of Felix (Not both, as they were essentially clones in their own games, but both characters are just as significant to the story, so one of them should make it. They would make a great magic-based swordsmen.)

The Golden Sun series is a great pair of GBA games and it is certainly worthy of representation. It is also by Camelot [developers of Mario Golf and Tennis], a Nintendo second-party. I don't think more than one GS character will make it, but I think it is deserving of another. SSB is in need of more female characters, so Jenna, Sheba, or Mia would make a great addition, with each character being very significant to the series. Also, they all wear modest clothing (**cough*Zamus*cough**), and most characters in the series have great character designs. Alex would make a great villain, but I'd rather have Jenna, Mia, or Sheba first, and I don't think the series will get three slots.

Other
35) Mii (I think Mii's would be hilarious. Have their speed, power, etc. all vary based on their height and weight, but in a way that is still balanced. Miis are iconic of Nintendo.)
No disagreements here. Those are all fine choices.


Third-Party Series
36) Solid Snake (I personally think other third-party characters are more deserving, but Snake is still an interesting character at least.)
37) Megaman (He is easily one of the most worthy 3rd-party characters, and he started out on a Nintendo console. His character design fits perfectly into SSB.)
38) Sonic (Mario's greatest rival, and his [Genesis] games were amazing. No other Sonic characters playable though.)

Simon Belmont and Bomberman also have decent chances, but there is only so much room for third-party characters.

That leaves a good amount of room left, as I certainly expect SSBB to have more characters than this. I expect a few random characters (like Pit and the ICs) and a few Maybes from above, along with clones.
Thanks for taking the time to offer your opinions and the reasons behind them. I don't agree with everything, but I hope you'll continue to post here. I always enjoy a good debate.:)




I'm not saying Waluigi deserves it more than them, I just like him more and would rather see him.
Fair enough. I've always enjoyed the humourous antics of Wario and Waluigi in Mario Sports games, so I'm not totally opposed to his inclusion.

Again, I really don't care if he makes it (not a fan of Falco or Star Fox in general.) But I just hate how people claim that Star Fox should only have three when it is very possible that there will be four characters with four different fighting techniques.
Oh, its certainly possible. But should Star Fox get more than three reps when Metroid (a far greater and more important franchise) could only get two (three, if you count Zamus)? I don't think so.

I haven't played it, and I probably won't. I don't have a lot of money so I can't go buying every single game I want to buy. That's why my knowledge of certain franchises is limited; lack of experience with the games.
I can sympathize with that. I hardly ever buy games anyone, I usually just rent them to save money and try and beat them before I have to return them. Of course, that isn't always prctical with a lengthy RPG.


He also represents a major milestone; first international game. That gives him a bit more of an argument. (I'm not 100% sure on this one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Your right. Hector was a lord in Fire Emblem GBA, the first localized game in the series. Unfortunatly, the GBA games are not very popular in Japan - which is one of the reasons why I chose reps from PoR. That game is the only one in the series that is popular worldwide.


I have always liked the idea of clones. Why everyone is so opposed to them I have yet to be told.
Too true.

Don't even joke like that... *Wants Sonic in Brawl.*
I know, its unthinkable, but the roster was most likely finalized last year (with the closing of the Japanese poll) and I'm concerned as to whether Sega and Ninrendo were able to reach an agreement in time. It won't bother me personbally (Snake is the only non-Nintendo character I really want) but I think most other people would be disappointed.
 

Vali

Smash Ace
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
721
Fair enough. I've always enjoyed the humourous antics of Wario and Waluigi in Mario Sports games, so I'm not totally opposed to his inclusion.
You mean the whole 20 seconds of "hilarity" in the cutscenes at the start of a new game?

@SmashDaddy + Wiseguy's clone debate:

I'd actually go so far as to say that a roster with 39 original movesets has more "characters" than 36 with 9 clones, despite obviously the latter having a larger number of people included in the game.
 

Smady

Smash Master
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Messages
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Location
K Rool Avenue
Oh come now, clones aren't that bad. Take Dr. Mario for example: he's about as clonish as you can get. Yet the majority of Mario players (myself included) see him as a great inclusion because he alows players to choose the Mario they prefer. I sincerely hopw that we see clones in Brawl, because it will mean that we get more total characters than we otherwise would have.
That's not too good a reason. They're pretty much identical, even if it is nice to have a choice between two characters. Clones probably don't take up any spots, at least, of new characters, but broaden the roster with characters that had no time to have their own moveset. Their usefulness is so minuscule in comparison to totally different characters it's ridiculous.
 

Ferro De Lupe

Smash Lord
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
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Location
Shawnee, OK
You mean the whole 20 seconds of "hilarity" in the cutscenes at the start of a new game?
I actually like him because he reminds me of DickDastardly from the era when cartoons were actually GOOD. Even his laugh is Dastardly-ish.

Fair enough. I've always enjoyed the humourous antics of Wario and Waluigi in Mario Sports games, so I'm not totally opposed to his inclusion.
Plus, look at it this way... Since Waluigi has nothing except fillers and sports titles, he's an empty canvas for a moveset to be built. Take into account his stretchy arms and legs, his Bob-bomb antics, and deceptive attitude, and it would be one fun moveset.


Oh, its certainly possible. But should Star Fox get more than three reps when Metroid (a far greater and more important franchise) could only get two (three, if you count Zamus)? I don't think so.
That's more of a fault at the Metroid creators more than anyone else. Metroid has very few characters to choose from, while Star Fox has at least a good dozen (only four are worthy of being added, but the point remains.)

Your right. Hector was a lord in Fire Emblem GBA, the first localized game in the series. Unfortunatly, the GBA games are not very popular in Japan - which is one of the reasons why I chose reps from PoR. That game is the only one in the series that is popular worldwide.
With good reason too. I personally would take Nephenee over any other character in the FE universe, but that's just me.
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Johnknight1
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I can hardly beleive it! For the last two days, we've seem updates that are not only new - but actually pretty great. Maybe its just because my expectations are lowering, but I think both the cracker launcher and Delfino plaza both look awesome. This "Super Smash Bros Brawl" game may actually be worth buying after all.
Seriously, I predicted Delfino Plaza, and it looks almost exactly as I thought it would work. The only thing missing are the boats with on boat battles, and that statue in the middle is missing. Honestly, when I was 11 I got bored in my math class and drew pics of how that stage would work, and it would involve moving from land, on a platform, to land, to boats, and all over again. Strange, and yet somewhat wierd...:grin:

I agree that clones should be as unique from the character they based on as possible - as much as I like playing as the Doc. But I think 9 clones isn't that unreasonable when you consider that we are making the jump from 27 characters to (maybe) 45.
Lugified clones=good for the soul, almost as much as originals. But not Doc-like clones, that wasn' too good, and I bet he was one of the last characters to be complete in Melee, but he's a darn good character. Still, I'd like to see Falco (assuming in the very likely chance he will return, IMO) have a few more original moves, and that gun, and a semi-original B moveset is the wat to start. Now all he needs are a few new A attacks.

Yeah, I definitely need to practice more at Hunters' multiplayer. At least I'm still feared among fellow Tetris DS players online! Come to think of it, I have to rank Teris as my favorite DS game. I must have put more hours of my life into its many brilliant modes than any other game - except Melee, that is.
I suck at it, and I haven't played Tetris DS, though I have played Tetris for gagillions of hours. Poor Russian guy who thought of it, could be a billionaire, but he got screwed over by communism! Seriously the GB Tetris game outsold every GB game, even Pokemon. Now that is a feat worth mentioning=AMAZING!

I think replacing Marth with Ike would set Brawl apart from the other games in the series - but in a good way. Again, having as many new characters as possible in Brawl is somwthong I'm hoping for. I'll miss many of Melee's characters, but I can alwys hold onto Melee after Brawl is finished.
Why remove Marth, there is no reason other than he's Japan only. Also it won't change the game from other games in there series, did SSBM change from SSB64 by removing characters=??? No, it added new modes, features, battle options, stages, and most importantly new characters and advanced tech.

Also, I saw something strange on coolroms. Apparently ALL Fire Emblem games are EBA protected, or in other words are illegal to give out ROMs of them, for free or for money on the internet, without their permission. Maybe that means we'll get the earlier Fire Emblem games for the VC=??? Just thought was intresting, and thought I should metion that=very intresting! ;)

By the way, what does everyone think of a holding Smash tournanments with all three Smash games (once Brawl is released and SSB64 makes it to the VC)? Think of it: the first round would having the players competing with the original Smash, the second round would be Melee and the final round would be Brawl.
Never thought of it that way. Get SSB64 on the wii's VC, and play it with the GC controller only, then Melee, and lat but not least Brawl, all using the GC controller=uber ownage! That would be intresting, as well as awsome! ;):) Seriously, too bad Melee isn't a ROM with Kaillera online, or has a online version, because you could do this all online. O well, we can still play SSB64 on Kaillera, and WiFi online multiplayer on Brawl is almost guarenteed. *goes back to playing SSB64 on Kaillera*

I suspect I may have missed out on some of the greatest RPGs by failing to purchase a SNES. I'll have to check out FF V and VI on GBA after I complete FFIII.
Check out FFVI first. It's my fav FF game yet, and rivals VII and VIII in story and addicting gameplay. Now that is impressive! SNES N64 were the best systems of all time IMO, but soon it will be the Wii. Seriously, the VC with NES, SNES, N64, Genisis, Turbo Graphix, and other console games on it+Wii and GCN disk conpatiblity, is there any doubt=???

Incidentily, FFIII has possibily the most laughibly shallow plot in RPG history - and I can't get enough of it!
Has there ever been a bad FF game=???

The very thought of Brawl controlled with the Wii-mote makes me cringe. To be honest, I'm still a bit worried about it. Have you noticed that there is a Wii-mote icon next to "How to Play" on Dojo?
Because of that icon, my friend told me the Wimote, probably with the Numchuck is confirmed for to be the controls for Brawl. Since he has no idea what he's talkling about, I took a $20 bet against him tha Brawl can use the GCN controller (other than possibly mini-games, of course!). If it uses the Wiimote, with or without the Numchuck (not going to happen), he wins, GCN controller, I win, both=tie. Luckily the CC controller doesn't count, so I think he owns me $20.

Since Yoshi and Wario have starred in their own spin off series and have different icons (as opposed to the Mario series Mushroom) I don't think Sakurai considers them Mario reps.
Yoshi's Main Games (not including Smash): SMW (as a rideable character), SMW2: Yoshi's Island (with Mario, Bowser Jr., and Luigi), Yoshi's Story (purely Yoshi's game), Super Mario Sunshine (as a rideable character) Yoshi's Island DS (with Mario, Luigi, Bowser Jr., DK, and Wario=totally a Mario game). There's a few other, but they are primaraly Japan only games, or didn't sell to well, or simply weren't very popular.

In other words, Yoshi's Story is the only game not featuring Mario that he stared in alone that sold well and went worldwide. Wario is a diffrent case, but remeber Wario's roots=SML2. ;)

As for why Zelda should get more representaion thatn Pokemon, I still think that Zelda has been a more important series, overall. Sure, the original Pokemon may have been groundbreaking initially, but every game since has been pretty much the same. Also, the console games have been somewhat lacking in depth. Zelda games have consistently set the standard for what a game should be - from the NES to the Wii and everywhere in between. With Pokemon, you either love the series or you hate it. With Zelda, you either love or you're insane.
The handheld Zelda's aren't nearly as good as the console ones IMO. So what if the console Pokemon suck (except for Stadium 1+2 IMO), the handhelds have been the #1 selling handheld games for 10 years. Zeldas been around for over 21 years, and it doens't even have 1/4 the sales of Pokemon. Pokemon started a gaming revolution, and a craze we'll probably never see again, or for a long time. That is unless the Pokemon craze is back again, which it could very well could be. Seriously I see like 1/4 the people at my school playing any Pokemon games, every gen=njk. Dja vu, maybe=???

Zelda just was the first game that you could save (outside of Japan at least), and raised the standards for video games several levels up, in which Pokemon did the same thing, but to a lesser extent. In other words, Pokemon revolutinized handhelds systems more than any series, and the Zelda games were amonst the leaders of series that revolutionized console games, as well as a lot with the handhelds (especially Link's Awakening=I love that game!)

Seriously, if you where to do a exam to see who is more reconizable, Mewtwo or Pickachu, or Link, a lot more people would reconize Pickachu, possibly even Mewtwo (because of the blockbuster hit movie) than Link. Point: Pokemon is far bigger, far more reconizable, far more played, and could very well be more popular. If you don't appreciate all that Pokemon has done for video gaming, you are crazy!

Maybe one or two retros will get in (not including Pit) to appease rero gamers, But I generally consider characters from currently thriving series like Animal Crossing to be far more worthy than characters who havn't starred in a major relese in over a decade.
No real current series character has been added as the only rep to smash, at least not since SSB64, unless you include Roy (and Marth, though his last game was like 5 or 6 years old or something like). Just thought I'd mention that. Anyways, Nintendo's, the Wii's, and AC's rep=Mii's=done.

Miis will probably be the new player controlled characters in AC Wii, but we don't know that for sure. In the mean time, who will represent this awesome and ridiculously popular series? Nook is essentially the game's villian, and by far the most recagnizable of the Animals.
I've looked at the Mii's a lot, and I can conclude that they are upgraded AC humans, but with Virtual Reality gaming potential. The only villian in AC is that giraff lady who makes you clean her car, and if done right she gives you a present. Other than that all she does is scream and be annoying. Nook's just a guy (or racoon) out to make profits and lincrease living standards, from a trash shop to basically a mall sized store. Now don't we all want to make bank=???? $$$$$ :chuckle:

A major role in SF 64? Come one. He basically just flew around in his ship and made smart aleck remarks. At least Slippy crashed on a planet (a major plot devlopment) and helped you beat bosses by displaying their health. I'd definitly put Falco ahead of Peppy or Slippy - but not Krystal or Wolf given their importance to the more recent games. And certainly not an awesome slum lord like Nook who represents an entire series on his own.
Falco has a mysterious shrowd surrounding him, plus his past and what he spends his time outside of Star Fox is unknown. I smell a future plot twist coming ahead. I think I explained the Mii's thing well enough above.

That wimp spent most of the trilogy pouting and crying for his mommy. Very un-Vader like.
But he did kill Tuscan Raiders ruthlessly! ;)

Sure, he killed Mace Windew (by using a coward's attack when his back was turned) and killed a lot of 10 year olds in the third movie, but I couldn't say he came close to the sheer awesomeness of the original Vader.
He kills several Jedi Masters and Knights, much of which was cut in the film, but in the game. He kills the Jedi Temple training master and his favorite apprentice in a two on one, and owns them like no other! Plus he destroys thee Trade Federation and their thousands of droids, a sith (forgot her name), and of course he kills Count Dooku. Now how is that not awsome=???

Thanks, Johnknight1. I'll bet money that we see a new trailer next month at E3. They can't keep us waiting forever!
I (*hopefully* along with everyone on the SWF) hope so. If you don't hope we get one by or at E3, you are crazy, or hate smash. Sure they can keep us waiting with showing off Final Smash attack pics, new stages, and awsome songs by those awsome musicians (plus the guy who did that Wii Channel thing=Mii's, maybe=???), but they'll need to give us a trailer pretty soon. Let us hope we get a trailer by or at E3 (fingers crossed so tightly that theyjust fell off! :laugh:)

Falco's powerful attacks balanced by his poor recovery? I thought that his >B actually works quite great for a recovery. Regardless, where that leave someone like Doctor Mario who has virtually no recovery? By your logic, he would need a moveset even more powerful that Falco's to achieve balance.
His B> isn't good to use too much. It is only useful on some occassions, when your opponent least expects it, because it is easy to KO someone who is using it.

Yes, most of the time in tournaments and the like the player with the greater skill wins regardless of their character choice. But in a match with equally skilled players, a Sheik player will always have a huge advantage over Pichu and other lower tier characters.
We call it the character matchup chart thread. Anyways, I hear Chudat (not sure if I spelled that right) had a uber powerful Pichu, that could pwn almost anyone on the SWF. IMO Tiers in SSB64, and even more in Melee aren't neccisarally which characters are the best/worst/somewhere in between.

It usually implys the character who is the most popular, or has the most useable moves. The tiers are pretty darn good, probably the best in all of fighting video gaming I say, except for games where the characters all have the same moves, of course! ;) Or whoever the champ of those games (Isai and Ken) main off, or have as there secondaries=minimal, but still has somewhat of an impact.
 

the grim lizard

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 26, 2004
Messages
3,130
This thread is already too long, but I just have one thing to add: It's the age-old discussion about the dreaded clones...

The debate of their existance has been around since Melee first came out. But I think it's just downright STUPID to say you want no clones. I wouldn't mind if every character had a clone (just like McFox said a long time ago) if it meant we got to have 50-60 playable characters. Just think about Melee and ask yourself if you don't know anyone who played a clone as one of their mains. I play Doc and Falco a lot, one of my friends' mains is Ganondorf, and the main of two other friends are Falco and Y. Link.

Granted, Pichu is lame and must go, but...are you really saying you would rather have only 19 characters in SSBM just for the sake of no clones?? Or, isn't it nice to have a "free" extra character like Doc or someone? They could spend the same amount of time coming up with 5 or 6 clones as they could one original moveset; so, why not please the fans and inclue more characters? I'm all for original movesets, but face it: if they put clones in, we are going to play them...

Wiseguy said:
There were five mario characters in melee: Mario, Doc, Peach, Bowser and Luigi. Yoshi has starred in his own games so (like DK) he has his own series that justifies his place in Smash. As soon as we see that Falco spin off series, maybe he too can get in without riding another character's coattails.
Yeah, whatever ever happened to that? Falco was SUPPOSED to get some sort of game of his own (read stuff about Falco not being in Starfox Adventures, it alludes to Falco getting his own game). I seriously think Falco SHOULD get his own game...He's WAY more popular than the character Fox. They seriously should let him be something more than a Fox McCloud lackey...
 
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