Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Vali]

Well it was partially your fault for changing to Bowser Jr. and partly Wiseguy's (paintbrush was his thing). Toadsworth was definitely your doing though .

I only noticed it on about my 3rd read through, and even then it was a delayed reaction and had to read it for a 4th time to make sure I read it correctly, the human brain does that sort of thing, correcting similar words and the like.

Spoiler

I've editted my edit so that noone will ever know.

I might have to do a bit more of a wishlist at some point, since you critiqued mine for having no real surprises which at the end of the day is probably what a real Brawl prediction roster will be like. Mine obviously isn't going to be 100% accurate since I have some bias towards bringing in new characters such as in the FE and SF franchises where others retain some of the Melee cast, but I believe that most of the choices that Sakurai will go for will be the obvious, popular choices.

Just realised I forgot to update Midna to Imp form without Wolf Link as well. Dammit, I'll update it. This is your doing...again.

 

[Smady]

Thanks, you could have easily blackmailed me with that massive mistake I made. I'll never do something so stupid again.

Ah, yes, I'll have to put consideration into everything again. *Sigh.* I'll go through it as slowly as possible...

 

[Vali]

You shouldn't make it sound like a chore ^^; I kinda figured that most people already have very solid ideas about what franchises need what, how many (if any) retro/Melee characters should return, who's popular and likely to be in etc. etc.

Just be thankful you aren't forcing yourself to do a post like Wiseguy's original post with all the pictures and added text explaining indepth why you chose all of them .

I'm trying to do the much harder task of deciding which Pikmin game i prefer. The 2nd one is longer, has better gameplay mechanics, the most awesome categorised "piklopedia" of all the enemies you've seen which are fully animated with descriptions and even Pikpik carrots to throw at them and see their moves (kind of like trophies on crack) the fat sumo pikmin <3 and the like. However while that's all well and good, the premise behind the game (while still fresh and good) just lacks the charm the original had, and I'm a sucker for storylines. Plus I miss the bomb rocks from Pikmin 1 in Pikmin 2, the yellows just didn't have the same oomph without the kamikazing.

 

[Devastlian]

This forty character challenge thingy was rather challenging. I tried to make some random goals like one-fifth females, one-fifth heavy characters, and two fifths weapon fighters (these could over lap...well, the first couldn't, I guess) and came up with seven females, seven heavy characters, and seventeen weapon fighters. :/

The whole 'OMG THREE THIRD PARTY CHARACTERS MAXIMUM' of course isn't completely true; it was phrased as a question as though not set into stone...so 4 shouldn't hurt.

For characters that never made it outside of Japan, Mr. Sakurai said he couldn't 'just' put characters that are popular only in Japan, so, if at least one internationally popular character is in the game, he wouldn't be lying and the majority of them being internationally popular would be completely fine. Also...I think that's such a bull**** reason to dismiss such awesome characters.

Mario Team
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach

Donkey Kong Team
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong

Zelda Team
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
The Wind Waker

Metroid Team
Samus (w/ZSS transformation.)
Ridley- Somehow they should make this work and be awesome.

Star Fox Team
Fox
Krystal- For femaleness, awesomeness, and staffedness.
Wolf- Heavy, real rival, generally awesome and complete with an awesome theme song.

Kirby Team
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Pokémon Team
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario

Mother Team
Lucas
Kumatora- Rather popular and rather female.

Mother 3 needs to be localised by any means necessary even if the Fire Emblem effect needs to make it happen.

F-Zero Team
Captain Falcon

Fire Emblem Team
Ike
Lyndis

I'm not entirely knowledgeable about Fire Emblem so I just picked two random ones with random, superficial discretion.

Wario Team
Wario
Captain Syrup- An original Wario villain that needs a comeback. Scimitars are widely underrepresent, as are pirates...and pirate chicks.

Single Characters
Yoshi

Ice Climbers

Mr. Game & Watch

If these two don't come back, I'm stabbing someone in the jaw.

Pit

Takamaru- Completing the tetrafecta that is Metroid, Kid Icarus, TLoZ, and Nazo No Murasame-jo, Takamaru helps fill the much needed samurai quota. Also a poplular character amongst old school Nintendo fans that have played his game and his game made a cameo in Pikmin 2...so he could be considered international...kinda. Also a samurai.

Isaac- From Nintendo and Camelot's RPG Golden Sun which is apparently rather popular in Europe (due to their lack of RPG releases :/). Has awesome mind powers and earth powers and is probably one of the cockiest heroes ever.

Third Party Characters
Snake

Sonic

Megaman

Loto- From Dragon Quest III (which has been released in the US a couple times). The poplularity of the series in Japan is so huge that a Dragon Quest character would seal SSBB's fate as a most wanted, million selling game that it already was but times at least one-point-something. Loto is also rather awesome and important to the series being the legendary hero that the heroes of the first to games decend from as well as being the hero of the third game (the first three are collectively refered to as the Loto Series by some people).

So yeah. I stayed pretty conservative with my choices, I guess. :/

(Note: If Samus' transformation isn't voluntary, then I consider Samus and ZSS one character and will add Samurai Goroh back onto the list.)

 

[weasleman333]

Musicians:

Tomoko Sasaki (TOKIOHEIDI) NiGHTS
Yasunori Mitsuda
(PROCYON STUDIO CO., LTD.) CHRONO TRIGGER / XENOGEARS
Yoko Shimomura Kingdom Hearts series

Sora
Chrono trigger
nights

OH yea

 

[Chief Mendez]

Andross: Its a cool idea, but the character that you want has yet to appear in a videogame. Andross from the Strafox series is just a giant floating head - which doesn't make an ideal character character addition.

Meowth: I'll take your wod for it that he was important in the anime', but how about the games? Did he even appear in Diamond and Pearl? (that's an actual question)

Lucas: I'm all for replacing old characters with new one's, but I also think that characters from internationally released games are more worthy than Japanese only characters. Ness' game was the only one in the Earthbound series to see the light of day outside Japan, so I suspect he won't be replaced as the series rep just yet. However, I'd be lying if i said it was impossible.

Jumpman: I'm sure someone must have told you this already, but the character Jumpman from the original Donkey Kong was actually Mario in his earlier, non-plumber days.

Andross: Well, how often before SB64 was Captain Falcon seen outside of his machine? At least Andross does things, and if you've ever played a SF game, you've at least heard the guy's name. I know it'd be weird, but Smash is full of surprise characters, and this would be one heck of a surprise. Imagine Andross in a regal-looking lab coat/robe, with his "hands" in his pockets. Whenever he attacks, hands materialize from out of nowhere to deliver his attacks.

Meowth: No, it wasn't in DP, or RS for that matter. But as is the case with basically every Pokemon, their importance is never soley (or even heavily) defined by the games. Appearances in said games don't hurt, and almost all of the spin-off games feature Meowth in some aspect. But everyone knows who he is, everyone knows what he does, and that's alot more than can be said for most Pokemon (Lucario, Deoxys, and Mewtwo can't match that).

Lucas: To be honest, I only listed him because I have no clue what will come of this issue. It's just me trying to be progressive is all. If you must, just think of this as Ness.

Jumpman: I know he was later turned into Ninty's mascot Mario, but in Donkey Kong, he's just Jumpman. He's even got a different sprite set than the NES Mario! He might be restricted to jumping, but who's to say a moveset can't be made of that? Imagine the awesomeness that'd bring.

I can't believe Mendez left me high and dry by not nominating Phoenix Wright. If I make a "40 challenge" version of my character list, I'll be omitting Phoenix and adding Meowth as half of the reason of his being there was Mendez's confidence in him, which is somewhat lost now. How disappointing.

There's nothing I'd like more than for Nick to be picked as a Capcom character. Unfortunately, there's Megaman (sucky as his games are), who happens to be Capcom's mascot. It's not impossible (and my fingers are permanently crossed), but I don't really see it happening. This is also the case with Viewtiful Joe, Kumatora, Takamaru, and Mach Rider. It's sad, but...

You have a grand total of 5 StarFox representatives which to be fair isn't going to happen, especially not Andross. I can see why you picked Falco too and he might return, but he's another one of those characters who is popular becauuse he's top tier and so when he's nerfed in Brawl there'll be far less people who play him. I reckon there'll only be 3 StarFox characters and in popularity Krystal and Wolf beat Falco.

Silly me: I forgot Tingle. Wolf wasn't supposed to be in there, but I was one character off and somehow Tingle just slipped my mind. So now there's 4 SF characters.

Andross would make more sense, and be much more innovative than "another" Fox.

5 Pokemon I'm uncertain about, since while obviously there's a lot of Pokemon fans that would like to Smash with their pokepals, there's a lot of people (like Wiseguy) that feel that the roster shouldn't be crawling with the critters either. I'm putting my foot down on 4 is enough, and like we've been discussing I'm not all that keen on Meowth's inclusion (or cutting Mewtwo for Deoxys). Oh and before you might start to bring up the 5 Pokemon because it's the 2nd biggest franchise argument, you've only given the Mario franchise 4 characters (Wario + Yoshi are their own and Jumpman has long been forgotten and isn't exactly part of the franchise since Mario was introduced)

I don't think any franchises are going to lower their total character count, and there are certain series that won't stay the same. Zelda (der), Mario (der), Kirby (director's series), Metroid (it's "for the core audience" and stuff), StarFox (uh...fanaticism?) and Pokemon (sales) are the major franchises, and I don't think they'll go without an upgrade in character count.

I don't see Yoshi as his own franchise, really. I'd consider DK a Mario character too if not for Diddy on the list. Yoshi always almost always appears with Mario, so why not? I'd say Wario is his own series, but come on: it's a pun on Wario. He may have his Made in Wario get-up, but without any other MiW characters, people are going to see him as a Mario character.

Don't know pretty much anything about Micaiah other than what I read on Wiseguy's runner-ups and while she sounds interesting enough I feel the Black Knight included (not as a clone) would probably be better. Still there's a lot of FE characters to choose from and if you want to go down the female route, I think there's been a lot more popular choices suggested (Lyn springs to mind). However, I don't have a clue about FE, so yeah.

When the Black Knight's primary supporter (Wiseguy) openly states that he'd only be in as a clone...that says something about him. Lyndis apparently isn't so hot in Japan, and I'm trying to appease both audiences (East and West) when it comes to FE. It's a really complicated argument, so just trust me on this one.

Biggest weakness of your list is an unrealistic 5 3rd party choices. Sakurai stated there will be about 3 maximum and I just don't see 5 happening after that. Out of those that you did pick, Megaman and Sonic are more or less shoe-ins, Sonic much more than Megaman.

I don't think he officially set in stone a 3 character limit. That comment is just that: a comment. It's a good estimate, but I think each of the big Japanese companies will either be asked for a character (Sonic), or pay their character's way in to such a hot property (Megaman, Simon). The only 3rd-P fighter I'm willing to budge on is Simon, since Konami already has one character in Brawl. His spot would probably be replaced by a Namco character, but for the life of me I can't think of a really iconic Namco character.

Also, wow: http://www.nintendowiifanboy.com/2007/05/27/wii-warm-up-super-smash-cho-aniki/

 

[Wiseguy]

I'm trying to do the much harder task of deciding which Pikmin game i prefer. The 2nd one is longer, has better gameplay mechanics, the most awesome categorised "piklopedia" of all the enemies you've seen which are fully animated with descriptions and even Pikpik carrots to throw at them and see their moves (kind of like trophies on crack) the fat sumo pikmin <3 and the like. However while that's all well and good, the premise behind the game (while still fresh and good) just lacks the charm the original had, and I'm a sucker for storylines. Plus I miss the bomb rocks from Pikmin 1 in Pikmin 2, the yellows just didn't have the same oomph without the kamikazing.

That is a toughie. I loved Pikmin 1's sense of urgency (having a limited number of days to complete your task made every decision meaningful) and I did miss elements like the Yellow Pikmin's bomb rocks that never made it into the second game. However, Pikmin 2 is a far more robust package overall. A lengthier quest, more Pikmin, brilliantly designed dugeons, the ability to control two characters at once, more awesome boss battles, two player competitive and cooperative modes and (of course) the pikipedia all combined into one excellent game. I also prefered the story in the second game: characters like Louie, the President and the talking ship made for some hilarious and enjoyable plot twists. I'd have to say Pikmin 2 is my favorite - but by a small margin.

This forty character challenge thingy was rather challenging. I tried to make some random goals like one-fifth females, one-fifth heavy characters, and two fifths weapon fighters (these could over lap...well, the first couldn't, I guess) and came up with seven females, seven heavy characters, and seventeen weapon fighters. :/

The whole 'OMG THREE THIRD PARTY CHARACTERS MAXIMUM' of course isn't completely true; it was phrased as a question as though not set into stone...so 4 shouldn't hurt.

For characters that never made it outside of Japan, Mr. Sakurai said he couldn't 'just' put characters that are popular only in Japan, so, if at least one internationally popular character is in the game, he wouldn't be lying and the majority of them being internationally popular would be completely fine. Also...I think that's such a bull**** reason to dismiss such awesome characters.

Mario Team
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach

Donkey Kong Team
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong

Zelda Team
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
The Wind Waker

Metroid Team
Samus
Ridley- Somehow they should make this work and be awesome.

Star Fox Team
Fox
Krystal- For femaleness, awesomeness, and staffedness.
Wolf- Heavy, real rival, generally awesome and complete with an awesome theme song.

Kirby Team
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Pokémon Team
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario

Mother Team
Lucas
Kumatora- Rather popular and rather female.

Mother 3 needs to be localised by any means necessary even if the Fire Emblem effect needs to make it happen.

F-Zero Team
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh- A nice heavy rival for Captain Falcon. Also uses a katana (reason enough).

Fire Emblem Team
Ike
Lyndis

I'm not entirely knowledgeable about Fire Emblem so I just picked two random ones with random, superficial discretion.

Wario Team
Wario
Captain Syrup- An original Wario villain that needs a comeback. Scimitars are widely underrepresent, as are pirates...and pirate chicks.

Single Characters
Yoshi

Ice Climbers

Mr. Game & Watch

If these two don't come back, I'm stabbing someone in the jaw.

Pit

Takamaru- Completing the tetrafecta that is Metroid, Kid Icarus, TLoZ, and Nazo No Murasame-jo, Takamaru helps fill the much needed samurai quota. Also a poplular character amongst old school Nintendo fans that have played his game and his game made a cameo in Pikmin 2...so he could be considered international...kinda. Also a samurai.

Isaac- From Nintendo and Camelot's RPG Golden Sun which is apparently rather popular in Europe (due to their lack of RPG releases :/). Has awesome mind powers and earth powers and is probably one of the cockiest heroes ever.

Third Party Characters
Snake

Sonic

Megaman

Loto- From Dragon Quest III (which has been released in the US a couple times). The poplularity of the series in Japan is so huge that a Dragon Quest character would seal SSBB's fate as a most wanted, million selling game that it already was but times at least one-point-something. Loto is also rather awesome and important to the series being the legendary hero that the heroes of the first to games decend from as well as being the hero of the third game (the first three are collectively refered to as the Loto Series by some people).

So yeah. I stayed pretty conservative with my choices, I guess. :/

I can tell that you put alot of thought into this. I like how you distributed characters pretty fairly to all the series and also found room for some surprises like Captin Syrup.

Although Sakurai's quote on Japanese-only characters was rather ambiguous, the point I think he was getting at was that he is reluctant to include characters who's games have only been released in Japan becuase he is catering to a global audience.

The problem I have with characters like Marth and Lucas representing their respective franchises is that there are plenty of characters from these series that have have appeared in games in both Japan and the rest of the world.

I also think that a Japanese-only character like Takamaru or a western-only character like Earthworm Jim should not be put in Brawl when there are plenty of characters like Olimar who represent series that are popular worldwide. So rather than pitting East vs. West, I suspect Sakurai will choose characters that are popular worldwide. In any case, we won't know for sure until Sakurai reveals the final character roster.

I'm intrigued by your decision to include Loto. I'm new to the DQ franchise (only played VIII) but I would love to see the series get the recognition it deserves. I hope we see the old DQ games released on Virtual console or something so I can make an informed decision on who would make the best rep for the series...

Musicians:

Tomoko Sasaki (TOKIOHEIDI) NiGHTS
Yasunori Mitsuda
(PROCYON STUDIO CO., LTD.) CHRONO TRIGGER / XENOGEARS
Yoko Shimomura Kingdom Hearts series

Sora
Chrono trigger
nights

OH yea

That's kind of jumping the gun, I'm afriad. Sakurai hired some of the most talented musicians in the industry to make the music in Brawl - but they are all free agents, so the game companies don't own them and they don't own the characters to which you refered.

I blame Sakurai. If he had given us a more substancial update, we wouldn't be seeing conspiracies every where we look.

Andross: Well, how often before SB64 was Captain Falcon seen outside of his machine? At least Andross does things, and if you've ever played a SF game, you've at least heard the guy's name. I know it'd be weird, but Smash is full of surprise characters, and this would be one heck of a surprise. Imagine Andross in a regal-looking lab coat/robe, with his "hands" in his pockets. Whenever he attacks, hands materialize from out of nowhere to deliver his attacks.

I'm all for seeing completly unique movestes made up for characters like Capt. Falcon and Fox (both of whom had never seen been playable outside their ships prior to Smash). My problem is creating characters out of the blue. Smash Bros is about honouring great videogame characters from the greatest videogame series and including a playable character who isn't from a videogame would ruin the purity and pupose of the series.

If your version of Andross (the one with a torsoe and a lab coat) had ever appeared in a Star Fox game, (either in gameplay, a cut scene or even on the game manual) I would be all for him being included. However, the Andross we know and love has never apeared that way. He is known soley as a gian hoveering head and hands. Your character is one created in the minds of Star Fox fans, so he has no place next to the likes of Mario and Solid Snake.

Meowth: No, it wasn't in DP, or RS for that matter. But as is the case with basically every Pokemon, their importance is never soley (or even heavily) defined by the games. Appearances in said games don't hurt, and almost all of the spin-off games feature Meowth in some aspect. But everyone knows who he is, everyone knows what he does, and that's alot more than can be said for most Pokemon (Lucario, Deoxys, and Mewtwo can't match that).

Call me crazy, but I still think the games are the biggest (if not only) factor in deciding a character's worthiness for Smash. I could see why they would choose Pokemon who are popular from the anime since they are all equally devoid of importance or distinct personalities in the games, but I think they should at least choose Pokemon who have at least appeared in the recent games.

But hey, what do I know. I still can't fathom what people see in that series to begin with.

Lucas: To be honest, I only listed him because I have no clue what will come of this issue. It's just me trying to be progressive is all. If you must, just think of this as Ness.

Yeah, Earthbound is a hard one to predict. I wish Nintendo would just localize Mother 3 already so there would be no question.

Jumpman: I know he was later turned into Ninty's mascot Mario, but in Donkey Kong, he's just Jumpman. He's even got a different sprite set than the NES Mario! He might be restricted to jumping, but who's to say a moveset can't be made of that? Imagine the awesomeness that'd bring.

Wow. A character who jumps. Yep, that would be pretty awesome all right...

I don't see Yoshi as his own franchise, really. I'd consider DK a Mario character too if not for Diddy on the list. Yoshi always almost always appears with Mario, so why not? I'd say Wario is his own series, but come on: it's a pun on Wario. He may have his Made in Wario get-up, but without any other MiW characters, people are going to see him as a Mario character

.

In Melee, Yoshi had his own icon (the egg) while Mario and crew had the Mushroom icon. Yoshi also had maps from Yoshi's Island 64 (the only game where Yoshi appeared without Mario - Baby or otherwise) so it looks like Sakurai considers Yoshi to be the star of his own series, and that's really all that matters.

When the Black Knight's primary supporter (Wiseguy) openly states that he'd only be in as a clone...that says something about him. Lyndis apparently isn't so hot in Japan, and I'm trying to appease both audiences (East and West) when it comes to FE. It's a really complicated argument, so just trust me on this one.

Yeah, that says something alright. It says that he could be included in a fraction of the development time of an original character - making him more likely (not less) than Maciaiah or any other Fire Emblem character.

I don't think he officially set in stone a 3 character limit. That comment is just that: a comment. It's a good estimate, but I think each of the big Japanese companies will either be asked for a character (Sonic), or pay their character's way in to such a hot property (Megaman, Simon). The only 3rd-P fighter I'm willing to budge on is Simon, since Konami already has one character in Brawl. His spot would probably be replaced by a Namco character, but for the life of me I can't think of a really iconic Namco character.

I agree with you there. There is no offical number of 3rd party characters, so there is no way of knowing for certain how many more will appear. Sakurai's response seemed awfully cryptic to me, almost as if he really didn't know if he could get the rights to any more 3rd party characters and he wanted to keep everyone's expectations in check, just in case.

Also, wow: http://www.nintendowiifanboy.com/2007/05/27/wii-warm-up-super-smash-cho-aniki/

Come on, don't tell me you buy this! The name of the item is Gooey bomb, not whatever the heck that other thing is called. The two look only vaugly similar, so I think we can call this a coincidence.

 

[kirby_fox]

Chief Mendez: Namco can easily be represented by Pacman...duh...

As for the OP's list...I disagree w/ Pokemon and Fire Emblem...

Mewtwo = villain
Pikachu = hero

You ask anyone who hasn't played Pokemon in forever about Lucario or Deoxys and they'll go "what?" but you say Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, or any RBY and you'll get a reaction. Pichu was in because of it's popularity in Japan at the time, I've heard lots of people ask me who Pichu was while playing Smash (who wasn't a fan obviously). So either they'll put in popular ones in Japan (couldn't tell you what's popular though) or put in RBY ones that everyone will know (like Meowth).

As for Fire Emblem- Marth won't be leaving but I believe Roy will be. Marth was in the original series, and will more than likely make a return.

I also don't like your under-representation of classic Nintendo franchises. Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Lil Mac, even Bubbles (Clu Clu Land) are great additions to the Smash roster and have about as much chance as some of the others (like Midna).

I have a feeling we could see a lot more characters than we expect as well, we can guess at 40 but it's Sakurai- and if he's putting in clones again (like you are) then we can definitely count more than 40.

 

[MeleeMan]

Alright, I haven't posted at Smashboards since last year. I just sit in the shadows.... and watch... But this topic and your 40 character challenge has brought me out of the shadows. My original list (on paper, I've had it for awhile) contained 45 characters, and cutting it down to just 40 was really difficult. I decided to go the no-clone route, and made all 40 originals.

Mario Series:

Mario (Confirmed)

Luigi - I highly doubt Luigi will be removed. He was one of the original 12, and I believe they'll all be returning.

Peach

Bowser - I think Bowser will be returning, but hopefully they'll give him a break this time. Bowser got the shaft in Melee, and hopefully Sakurai knows this.

Wario (Confirmed)

Yoshi - The egg icon doesn't change the fact that he's a Mario character.

Cut:
Dr Mario


The Legend of Zelda Series:

Link (Confirmed)

Zelda - I think Zelda will be making a return, but without Shiek this time. It saddens me to say this, because I loved Shiek, but Zelda will probably follow suit and switch to TP style. Maybe she can use some of those Ganondorf possessed moves.... probably not...

Ganondorf - If he does return, which I'm fairly sure he will, he had better not be anything like he was in Melee. I don't want him to have a single one of Falcon's moves. It's my guess that Ganondorf will switch to TP style and use the sword from that game. Maybe he'll have some energy ball moves as well.

Hero of Winds - Yes, as much as some of you hate the idea, I think Wind Waker Link will be taking Y Link's place in the roster. Personally, I love the idea. Wind Waker was an amazing game, and why wouldn't you want to pit two Links from different timelines against each other? WW was popular enough to gain a sequel, and one that's pretty highly anticipated, so why wouldn't he be good enough for Brawl?

Cut:
Shiek - She didn't appear anywhere in TP, so I believe her time has passed.
Young Link OOT


Pokemon Series:

Pikachu (Confirmed)

Jigglypuff - One of the original 12. Even though she NEEDS to move aside for better Pokemon, chances are she's here to stay.

Mewtwo - A kickass addition to Melee... who sucked. He was a great idea, but being one of the most powerful pokemon, I don't think Pichu should be able to beat him. Because of how terrible he was in Melee, I was really close to just cutting him, but I think he'll be salvaged and made better.

Lucario - Hell yeah. If one pokemon was MADE for Brawl, it's him. Sure there are other fighting types, but none as popular as Lucario. Even on this board's poll, he got the top spot. I think his popularity in America AND Japan will earn him a spot in brawl.

Cut:
Pichu - There's no need for him anymore. He was a space filler and he injured himself with his own attacks. I loathe you Pichu.


Metroid Series:

Samus/Zamus (Confirmed)

Ridley - I really don't think anyone else in the Metroid series deserves a place in Brawl as much as Ridley. He's been in most of the games, and he's a badass dragon. He's probably the character I want to see most in Brawl. I was a bit worried when he was completely left out of Metroid Prime 2 and Hunters, but seeing him back in 3 gives me hope that he's not being replaced by Dark Samus. I thought about adding Dark Samus to the list, as it seems to be one of the big new villains, but I thought it would work better as a costume. They're too much alike.


Donkey Kong Series:

Donkey Kong - Original 12

Diddy Kong - The Donkey Kong series needs more representatives, and I can't think of anyone better to fill that roll. Diddy is a very popular character that is showing up more and more lately. He's even been featured in Mario sports titles such as Mario Kart Double Dash, Power Tennis, Superstar Baseball, and Hoops 3-0n-3. If he does appear, I doubt it will be with Dixie as his partner.

King K Rool - Smash needs more villains. I tried to add a villain for every major series, Bowser, Ganondorf, Ridley, and now K Rool. Again DK is under represented and K Rool would fit into the game perfectly.


Star Fox Series:

Fox (Confirmed)

Krystal - Sakurai stated he wanted more female characters in Smash... but there aren't that many good ones to choose from. Krystal is a badass, and she's a girl. Just give me a Dinosaur planet level to go along with her. I love that game. Eff you haters.

Wolf - The villain I think will be in, not Andross. Andross is a floating head, and changing him JUST for Brawl doesn't seem to likely. I mean sure, he's the main villain, and they COULD give him a body, I just don't think they will. On the other hand, Fox's rival would fit into the game very nicely. As long as they make him completely different than Fox.

Cut:
Falco - Sorry Falco fans, I think Falco is out. He was a good character for Melee, but I think that Krystal and Wolf will knock him off the roster.


Kirby Series:

Kirby (Confirmed)

Meta Knight (Confirmed)

King Dedede - King Dedede was one of the most requested characters on Sakurai's poll (as far as we can tell. Sakurai at least took notice of him the most.)


FZERO series:

Captain Falcon - original 12

Samurai Goroh - He's been in every F-Zero game so far. Every franchise needs a villain, so this lead me to choose Goroh, Falcon's rival. It was between him, Black Shadow, and Blood Falcon. I chose Goroh because he's been in every game and he was in the Melee intro, like Wolf and Ridley. (not that this makes a ****) I didn't go with Black Shadow because... he's kinda gay... and he doesn't have as many appearances as Goroh. Blood Falcon could just be a costume, because he's just a clone otherwise.


Fire Emblem Series:

Ike - I think Ike has one of the best chances of everyone on my list. (not including melee characters) He's a popular Lord both in Japan and America, He's in two Fire Emblem games, both already released in Japan, and Daein Castle has been shown as a level in Brawl.

Black Knight - What a cool character. With Path of Radiance being released and failry popular in America as well, I think the villain from that game has a better chance of getting in than Marth and Roy.

Cut:
Marth and Roy - You both served your purpose. Fire Emblem is now popular in America too. Now move over and let characters Americans are actually familiar with have a turn.


Retro:

Ness - Original 12. Eff that Lucas BS.

Pit (Confirmed)

Balloon Fighter - I've heard that he was almost in Melee, and I know his music appears on one level. He'd be a good retro character to put in, and he seems to be a failry popular choice. I loved Balloon Fight back in the day, and I hope he makes it in.

Cut:
Ice Climbers
Mr Game and Watch - I had both of these on my original list, but SOMEBODY made me cut 5! They were good characters, but I don't think they were popular enough to appear in two smash games.


Misc:

Captain Olimar - I think he's a very likely character to appear in Brawl. He's one of Miyamoto's babies, and would make an interesting addition.

Tom Nook - I wasn't sure on him at first, I like the Animal Crossing games... they're alright, I just didn't think it deserved a spot in Brawl. Then I found out how popular it really is. It even has a movie in Japan! Tom Nook is one of the main characters in the games, and I think he'd be the best representative of it.

Mii - Just a cool idea. Loading your own Mii's onto Brawl and playing as them. If Sakurai doesn't go with this idea, knowing how popular Miis are, he's just not thinking. And my god, I would love to fight Chuck Norris vs Jesus.

3rd Party:

Snake (Confirmed)

Sonic - I think pretty much everyone will agree that if Sega goes along with it, Sonic will be in Brawl. There's no 3rd party character that should be in over him.

Mega Man - Again, same with Capcom. Megaman got his start on Nintendo, and has an ***-ton games on all the N systems. Not X btw, original f***ing Mega Man.

Geno - Is there anyone who DOESN'T want Geno in the game? He's one of my personal top picks for Brawl, and I don't think I'm alone in this. He's got a huge fan base, and I think the fans of Geno have sealed his place in Brawl.

Isaac - I'm not sure what "party" he is, but I know he isn't 1st. I just want him in the game REALLY bad. I don't even know if his chances are that good, I just want him in there so bad that I tell myself he has a good chance of being in the game.

 

[Devastlian]

Isaac - I'm not sure what "party" he is, but I know he isn't 1st. I just want him in the game REALLY bad. I don't even know if his chances are that good, I just want him in there so bad that I tell myself he has a good chance of being in the game.

He's first party. Nintendo solely owns the rights to the characters and music in Golden Sun while Nintendo and Camelot jointly own everything else together.

 

[Shuma]

I don't really know much of the Black Knight, but if Ike is the Lord of the newest FE game and the Black Knight is his Nemesis, then i guess there's a chance that he would appear in the game, i think Sakurai plans to add Villains and Rivals in this game, who's a better villain in FE than the Black Knight?

I've only played the 2 games that came out for the GBA in America.

 

[Vali]

Musicians:
Tomoko Sasaki (TOKIOHEIDI) NiGHTS
Yasunori Mitsuda
(PROCYON STUDIO CO., LTD.) CHRONO TRIGGER / XENOGEARS
Yoko Shimomura Kingdom Hearts series

Sora
Chrono trigger
nights

You fail at the internet.


Not a bad list deva, but seriously, where was Zsamus? No excuses!

but who's to say a moveset can't be made of that?

Me. What would his grab move be? Jump? His down B? Jump? His up B? Hm, that one's a little trickier.

Silly me: I forgot Tingle. Somehow Tingle just slipped my mind.

Unbelievable.

What you have to also remember about Wiseguy is that he's a bit of a clonewhore if you ask me . While others shun the clone idea completely and decide to go for 0 in their 40 list he did include 9. Plus he wasn't saying that the Black Knight would have to be a clone, just that he could easily be included as one for saving time. I'd love to see BK with an original moveset make an appearance.

I don't think he officially set in stone a 3 character limit. That comment is just that: a comment. It's a good estimate

And the fact that he said it and that it is a good estimate is precisely why I put my foot down on 3 3rd party characters. If we stick to the comments that he makes then we're not presuming anything that hasn't been said, it's better to justify 3 because Sakurai said so rather than claim 5 because he might not have meant that in a final way. He may very well put in 5 3rd party characters in the end, but at the moment there's no reason to believe that he'll put in any more than 3.

I also prefered the story in the second game: characters like Louie, the President and the talking ship made for some hilarious and enjoyable plot twists

Haha, now this is where the real debate begins . The second story can't hold a candle to the first. The second one even started off badly, since the whole premise of the first one was that Olimar couldn't wait to get home to see his wife and kids after being away for so long, as he arrives home and then immediately gets whisked off to the Pikmin planet again. They aren't even mentioned. The first one was some kind of survival strategy adventure which was just so awesome in that you had to find pieces of your ship scattered everywhere (to anyone that doesn't know) and since there was only 30 pieces of treasure to collect it felt like a real achievement getting one, but in the second there was 200 in total and so getting a piece of treasure just didn't have that sensation of accomplishment attached to it.

Since there was no sense of urgency or danger in the second one and the fact that Olimar could at any time return home safely took away from the experience a lot. In the first one it was so deep because he was stranded there and was relying on befriending this strange race of Pikmin to help him survive and there was a real emotional attachment. The diary was also much better as a story aid than the mail, since you could really get attached to Olimar through his diary extracts and it all felt like a learning experience while reading through the Pikmin profile pages he'd write occasionally when you learned new stuff about the Pikmin. In the second story however the best you could hope for in the mail was something along the lines of "They're going to break my legs!" and while there was storyline there to follow, it lacked heart.

I actually went through and made a new file on Pikmin yesterday, curious to see the bad ending. If you go do the first level (you have to), then you can skip through the days by going to sunset up until the last day and since you don't discover new things about the Pikmin you get instead all of the diary entries. *Spoilers for the bad ending*

Spoiler

Which is actually really nice surprisingly. As the days kinda rack up and Olimar starts losing hope (shown through the diaries) he actually in a couple of them started wishing he could be a Pikmin, then dismissing it as rediculous, since he has a wife and kids. Then on the last day, which you can't skip, Olimar sets off to go home even though he knows he'll most likely fail and the Dolphin fails on him and crashes. The Pikmin then touchingly go find his body and take it to their Onion where Olimar is sucked up and reborn again as an Olimar-headed pikmin, buried in the ground, so his dream of becoming a Pikmin came true.

The second story doesn't have depth like that!

 

[Sheik_the_Geek]

Viewtiful Joe gets no respect at all...I say he has a VERY high chance of being in brawl, alot higher than these random kiddie fan favorites.

 

[NukeA6]

Marth is gonna be cut because he is not known much in America? Yeah right, who says the Japanese game characters won't be in Brawl? Sakurai didn't even give the western hemisphere a poll.

 

[Wiseguy]

I thought I was joking when I predicted last week that Sakurai would have an update devoted entirely to Mario's Fireball attack - but if today's update was any indication, it may yet come to that.

My update is way better. I gave recognition to my favorite character in the Mario series - someone who would stand a far better chance of being in Brawl if Bowser Jr. wasn't the heir apparent. Of course, my updates don't tell you anything except my crazy opinions - but at least its something.

@ Devastlian: Sorry, I forgot to rate your roster. I'll give you 9/10. I disagree with you on some things, but I respect the reasoning behind your decisions.

Chief Mendez: Namco can easily be represented by Pacman...duh...

Hmmm... I'm actually fairly open to the idea of Pacman in Brawl, but I'm not sure what his moveset would entail (beyond running around and biting his opponents). Any thoughts?

As for Fire Emblem- Marth won't be leaving but I believe Roy will be. Marth was in the original series, and will more than likely make a return.

Marth was in the original Fire emblem game - but his games have never been released outside Japan (where the majority of Fire Emblem fans are) and he hasn't appeared in a Fire Emblem game in over a decade. He will more than likely NOT return.

I also don't like your under-representation of classic Nintendo franchises. Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Lil Mac, even Bubbles (Clu Clu Land) are great additions to the Smash roster and have about as much chance as some of the others (like Midna).

I'm not sure if retro characters like Geno and Balloon Fighter have as much chance as Midna (who was the most important character in a little game called Twilight Princess) but I could definitly see a few more retro characters in Brawl - just not at the expense of currently relevant characters.

I have a feeling we could see a lot more characters than we expect as well, we can guess at 40 but it's Sakurai- and if he's putting in clones again (like you are) then we can definitely count more than 40.

Yeah, that's my hope as well. But more than 40 original movesets does seem like wishful thinking if you ask me...

Alright, I haven't posted at Smashboards since last year. I just sit in the shadows.... and watch... But this topic and your 40 character challenge has brought me out of the shadows. My original list (on paper, I've had it for awhile) contained 45 characters, and cutting it down to just 40 was really difficult. I decided to go the no-clone route, and made all 40 originals.

Mario Series:

Mario (Confirmed)

Luigi - I highly doubt Luigi will be removed. He was one of the original 12, and I believe they'll all be returning.

Peach

Bowser - I think Bowser will be returning, but hopefully they'll give him a break this time. Bowser got the shaft in Melee, and hopefully Sakurai knows this.

Wario (Confirmed)

Yoshi - The egg icon doesn't change the fact that he's a Mario character.

Cut:
Dr Mario


The Legend of Zelda Series:

Link (Confirmed)

Zelda - I think Zelda will be making a return, but without Shiek this time. It saddens me to say this, because I loved Shiek, but Zelda will probably follow suit and switch to TP style. Maybe she can use some of those Ganondorf possessed moves.... probably not...

Ganondorf - If he does return, which I'm fairly sure he will, he had better not be anything like he was in Melee. I don't want him to have a single one of Falcon's moves. It's my guess that Ganondorf will switch to TP style and use the sword from that game. Maybe he'll have some energy ball moves as well.

Hero of Winds - Yes, as much as some of you hate the idea, I think Wind Waker Link will be taking Y Link's place in the roster. Personally, I love the idea. Wind Waker was an amazing game, and why wouldn't you want to pit two Links from different timelines against each other? WW was popular enough to gain a sequel, and one that's pretty highly anticipated, so why wouldn't he be good enough for Brawl?

Cut:
Shiek - She didn't appear anywhere in TP, so I believe her time has passed.
Young Link OOT


Pokemon Series:

Pikachu (Confirmed)

Jigglypuff - One of the original 12. Even though she NEEDS to move aside for better Pokemon, chances are she's here to stay.

Mewtwo - A kickass addition to Melee... who sucked. He was a great idea, but being one of the most powerful pokemon, I don't think Pichu should be able to beat him. Because of how terrible he was in Melee, I was really close to just cutting him, but I think he'll be salvaged and made better.

Lucario - Hell yeah. If one pokemon was MADE for Brawl, it's him. Sure there are other fighting types, but none as popular as Lucario. Even on this board's poll, he got the top spot. I think his popularity in America AND Japan will earn him a spot in brawl.

Cut:
Pichu - There's no need for him anymore. He was a space filler and he injured himself with his own attacks. I loathe you Pichu.


Metroid Series:

Samus/Zamus (Confirmed)

Ridley - I really don't think anyone else in the Metroid series deserves a place in Brawl as much as Ridley. He's been in most of the games, and he's a badass dragon. He's probably the character I want to see most in Brawl. I was a bit worried when he was completely left out of Metroid Prime 2 and Hunters, but seeing him back in 3 gives me hope that he's not being replaced by Dark Samus. I thought about adding Dark Samus to the list, as it seems to be one of the big new villains, but I thought it would work better as a costume. They're too much alike.


Donkey Kong Series:

Donkey Kong - Original 12

Diddy Kong - The Donkey Kong series needs more representatives, and I can't think of anyone better to fill that roll. Diddy is a very popular character that is showing up more and more lately. He's even been featured in Mario sports titles such as Mario Kart Double Dash, Power Tennis, Superstar Baseball, and Hoops 3-0n-3. If he does appear, I doubt it will be with Dixie as his partner.

King K Rool - Smash needs more villains. I tried to add a villain for every major series, Bowser, Ganondorf, Ridley, and now K Rool. Again DK is under represented and K Rool would fit into the game perfectly.


Star Fox Series:

Fox (Confirmed)

Krystal - Sakurai stated he wanted more female characters in Smash... but there aren't that many good ones to choose from. Krystal is a badass, and she's a girl. Just give me a Dinosaur planet level to go along with her. I love that game. Eff you haters.

Wolf - The villain I think will be in, not Andross. Andross is a floating head, and changing him JUST for Brawl doesn't seem to likely. I mean sure, he's the main villain, and they COULD give him a body, I just don't think they will. On the other hand, Fox's rival would fit into the game very nicely. As long as they make him completely different than Fox.

Cut:
Falco - Sorry Falco fans, I think Falco is out. He was a good character for Melee, but I think that Krystal and Wolf will knock him off the roster.


Kirby Series:

Kirby (Confirmed)

Meta Knight (Confirmed)

King Dedede - King Dedede was one of the most requested characters on Sakurai's poll (as far as we can tell. Sakurai at least took notice of him the most.)


FZERO series:

Captain Falcon - original 12

Samurai Goroh - He's been in every F-Zero game so far. Every franchise needs a villain, so this lead me to choose Goroh, Falcon's rival. It was between him, Black Shadow, and Blood Falcon. I chose Goroh because he's been in every game and he was in the Melee intro, like Wolf and Ridley. (not that this makes a ****) I didn't go with Black Shadow because... he's kinda gay... and he doesn't have as many appearances as Goroh. Blood Falcon could just be a costume, because he's just a clone otherwise.


Fire Emblem Series:

Ike - I think Ike has one of the best chances of everyone on my list. (not including melee characters) He's a popular Lord both in Japan and America, He's in two Fire Emblem games, both already released in Japan, and Daein Castle has been shown as a level in Brawl.

Black Knight - What a cool character. With Path of Radiance being released and failry popular in America as well, I think the villain from that game has a better chance of getting in than Marth and Roy.

Cut:
Marth and Roy - You both served your purpose. Fire Emblem is now popular in America too. Now move over and let characters Americans are actually familiar with have a turn.


Retro:

Ness - Original 12. Eff that Lucas BS.

Pit (Confirmed)

Balloon Fighter - I've heard that he was almost in Melee, and I know his music appears on one level. He'd be a good retro character to put in, and he seems to be a failry popular choice. I loved Balloon Fight back in the day, and I hope he makes it in.

Cut:
Ice Climbers
Mr Game and Watch - I had both of these on my original list, but SOMEBODY made me cut 5! They were good characters, but I don't think they were popular enough to appear in two smash games.


Misc:

Captain Olimar - I think he's a very likely character to appear in Brawl. He's one of Miyamoto's babies, and would make an interesting addition.

Tom Nook - I wasn't sure on him at first, I like the Animal Crossing games... they're alright, I just didn't think it deserved a spot in Brawl. Then I found out how popular it really is. It even has a movie in Japan! Tom Nook is one of the main characters in the games, and I think he'd be the best representative of it.

Mii - Just a cool idea. Loading your own Mii's onto Brawl and playing as them. If Sakurai doesn't go with this idea, knowing how popular Miis are, he's just not thinking. And my god, I would love to fight Chuck Norris vs Jesus.

3rd Party:

Snake (Confirmed)

Sonic - I think pretty much everyone will agree that if Sega goes along with it, Sonic will be in Brawl. There's no 3rd party character that should be in over him.

Mega Man - Again, same with Capcom. Megaman got his start on Nintendo, and has an ***-ton games on all the N systems. Not X btw, original f***ing Mega Man.

Geno - Is there anyone who DOESN'T want Geno in the game? He's one of my personal top picks for Brawl, and I don't think I'm alone in this. He's got a huge fan base, and I think the fans of Geno have sealed his place in Brawl.

Isaac - I'm not sure what "party" he is, but I know he isn't 1st. I just want him in the game REALLY bad. I don't even know if his chances are that good, I just want him in there so bad that I tell myself he has a good chance of being in the game.

Dude, that is one great list! Sure, inlcuding clones would allow for more characters, but if only 40 original movesets were to be included I'd have to agree that your roster would be just about perfect. 10/10

I don't really know much of the Black Knight, but if Ike is the Lord of the newest FE game and the Black Knight is his Nemesis, then i guess there's a chance that he would appear in the game, i think Sakurai plans to add Villains and Rivals in this game, who's a better villain in FE than the Black Knight?

I've only played the 2 games that came out for the GBA in America.

I completly agree Shuma. The Black Knight would make an excellent addition. If you own a Gamecube or Wii, I highly recomend that you check out Path of Radiance. It's possibily the best game in the series thus far.

Haha, now this is where the real debate begins . The second story can't hold a candle to the first. The second one even started off badly, since the whole premise of the first one was that Olimar couldn't wait to get home to see his wife and kids after being away for so long, as he arrives home and then immediately gets whisked off to the Pikmin planet again. They aren't even mentioned. The first one was some kind of survival strategy adventure which was just so awesome in that you had to find pieces of your ship scattered everywhere (to anyone that doesn't know) and since there was only 30 pieces of treasure to collect it felt like a real achievement getting one, but in the second there was 200 in total and so getting a piece of treasure just didn't have that sensation of accomplishment attached to it.

Hey, Pikmin 2 didn't start badly! Olimar returns home, only to immediately head back to the Pikmin to save his company - what sacrifice! Besides, we got to see Olimar's wife and kid in the letters they sent him in the mail.

While the overall game did have a more relaxed feel to it, I think there was a sense of urgeny every time you entered a dungeon. In those situations, keeping your Pikmin army alive (and holding onto your precious treasure) became very difficult as you plunged deeper and deeper into the heart of each treacherous dungeon.

Since there was no sense of urgency or danger in the second one and the fact that Olimar could at any time return home safely took away from the experience a lot. In the first one it was so deep because he was stranded there and was relying on befriending this strange race of Pikmin to help him survive and there was a real emotional attachment. The diary was also much better as a story aid than the mail, since you could really get attached to Olimar through his diary extracts and it all felt like a learning experience while reading through the Pikmin profile pages he'd write occasionally when you learned new stuff about the Pikmin. In the second story however the best you could hope for in the mail was something along the lines of "They're going to break my legs!" and while there was storyline there to follow, it lacked heart.

You didn't feel a sense of urgency due to the fact that the President was on the run from loan sharks? Like any loyal employee, I payed off that debt as fast as I could!

While the overall tone is different (Olimar is in it for the cash, not fighting for survival) I have to disagree that the stroy lacked heart. Rather than rely soley on Olimar's diary, the story is told through gorgeous cutscenes (I crack up everytime the president talks), as the comentary provided by the talking ship and well as various log entries provided by Olimar, the Ship and Louie (in which he describes how to make a meal out of the planet's monsters).

I actually went through and made a new file on Pikmin yesterday, curious to see the bad ending. If you go do the first level (you have to), then you can skip through the days by going to sunset up until the last day and since you don't discover new things about the Pikmin you get instead all of the diary entries. *Spoilers for the bad ending*

Spoiler

Which is actually really nice surprisingly. As the days kinda rack up and Olimar starts losing hope (shown through the diaries) he actually in a couple of them started wishing he could be a Pikmin, then dismissing it as rediculous, since he has a wife and kids. Then on the last day, which you can't skip, Olimar sets off to go home even though he knows he'll most likely fail and the Dolphin fails on him and crashes. The Pikmin then touchingly go find his body and take it to their Onion where Olimar is sucked up and reborn again as an Olimar-headed pikmin, buried in the ground, so his dream of becoming a Pikmin came true.

The second story doesn't have depth like that!

That ending is pretty touching. To be honest, I got my Gamecube a month before Pikmin 2's release, so I decided to just rent Pikmin 1. I blazed through it in a week and reset many of the same days over and over and over so that I could get the best ending on the first try.

However, Pikmin 2's story has one thing going for it that the first game doesn't: Louie.

Spoiler

Having a loyal sidekick to join Olimar on his quest was a stroke of genius! In addition to being incedibly useful (switching between the two commanders allowed for more complex strategies) Louie also brought his unqiue personality to the game.

Don't tell me you weren't horrified when Olimar looked back on the Pikmin Planet as he headed back to Holocaut - only to realize that he had left Louie behind!

Suddenly, the game had a new sense of purpose: Louie had to be rescued at all costs! The dungeon in which Louie being held prisoner (or was he?...) was among the hardest parts in the series and the final boss made the Emperor Bulborb look like a pushover.

So, while I love the story in both games I personally prefer Pikmin 2's a bit more - as there were more characters and plot twists and the story itself was much longer.

Viewtiful Joe gets no respect at all...I say he has a VERY high chance of being in brawl, alot higher than these random kiddie fan favorites.

To what "random kiddie fan favorites" are you reffering Mr. Geek?

@ Nuke A-6: Its not that Marth isn't well known outside Japan, its that the games he represents are Japanese-only. Ike's game, on the other hand, is popular in both Japan and the rest of the world.

Also, Sakurai indicated in a statment in Saumerai Panda's translation thread that he was disinclined to include Japanese only characters because Smash is popular worldwide.

 

[Smady]

Mario - 5
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Dr.Mario

Mario's confirmed. Luigi was one of the origional twelve, so he isn't going anywhere. Peach is basically confirmed as her importance in the series and popularity in Smash mesh together at the same point. Bowser will return - hopefully not so **** nerfed. He's a mess in 'Melee.

Bowser Jr. is different from the other four, as he's not so certain. Considering that he's the main villain in recent games such as New Super Mario Bros. and the main 'Gamecube Mario game Super Mario Sunshine, the time of Bowser Jr. has started. His paintbrush could also work, but I'm not for the whole Shadow Mario thing like others are. We don't need more Zelda/Sheik characters.

Legend of Zelda - 5
TP Link
TP Zelda
TP Ganondorf
WW Link (Replacing Y. Link)
Midna (Imp Form)

Link is confirmed. Ganondorf will return, due to his appearance in 'Melee and now TP it's pretty much a given. Zelda's the same as Ganondorf. WW Link will replace Y. Link, seeing as he's basically an upgrade from Y. Link anyway. Midna will, unfortunately, be in. Whether this will be on Wolf Link or alone in her Imp form is hard to decide, but I went with the Imp form as that would be the best way to promote the character and elevate her popularity( and the popularity of TP, as if it needed help).

Donkey Kong - 3
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
K. Rool

Donkey Kong is practically confirmed. Diddy Kong's the only other Kong I see being in realistically. Now, we have only gotten the one Donkey Kong character for the past two Smash games, not representing the Donkey Kong franchise at all. With the release of Diddy Kong racing and past merits Diddy Kong is a given, he also somewhat represents the Kong family. K. Rool would be the opposite end of the spectrum - a villain - giving Donkey Kong the honorable 'Brawl roster it deserves.

Kirby - 3
Kirby
Metaknight
King Dedede

Kirby and Metaknight are confirmed. Dedede is the most popular character from Sakurai's poll, and one of Sakurai's own characters, so he's practically confirmed. The trio, as with Donkey Kong, sheds light on a series that gets less than it warrants from Smash - especially considering Sakurai created it. His humbleness and fear that people will see him favouring his own characters has kept him from adding all these three before. Not only that, Kirby was nerfed to the bottom of the tiers in 'Melee. It is unforgivable, but Sakurai will redeem himself with 'Brawl if he adds Dedede as well as Metaknight. 'Brawl will be Kirby's playground if it turns out how it should.

StarFox - 4
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

I was seriously considering changing the line-up... But it won't work without all four. Fox is confirmed. Falco is on the edge, having the two others on his tail for the StarFox spots... But is there any point in removing Falco? Or rather, why remove him when they can simply leave him as he is with a little nerfing in 'Melee? If Fox changes, Falco can survive with a nerfed moveset. Goodbye to the days of godly Falco. Wolf was seen in the 'Melee introduction, which means something in my eyes. He is acknowledged. He'll be added before anyone else. Krystal plays a massive role in the new StarFox games, as much as we protest against them, so she has a place. All three represent different things in the series and have possibilities with movesets so I don't see why there should be any deliberation when StarFox is in development for the Wii and has a DS game, two 'Gamecube games, a legendary '64 game and a spectacular origional on the SNES. To the Arwings!

F-Zero - 2
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh

Meh, F-Zero. Goroh's another 'Melee villain (in the introduction) that is recognised (in the introduction) and after some investigation into the series here and there seems to be the most legitimate character from the series apart from Falcon himself - who is one of the twelve.

Fire Emblem - 3
Marth
Ike
Black Knight
Roy

Leave Marth, take out Roy. Then we can add these two. People were requesting Marth left and right for 'Melee, so removing him now would cause a small uproar. Ike is now the new Marth for 'Brawl, heavily requested worldwide. Black Knight is there for the sake of being there. He's a villain, he's connected to Ike, he's also in two of the games as well as Ike. It all clicks.

Pokemon - 4
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario
Pichu

Pikachu and 'Puff are part of the twelve. Mewtwo needs serious anti-nerfing and deserves a chance of redemption in 'Brawl. Lucario is too highly requested to be ignored now. I was thinking of putting in Meowth but there isn't enough space for a fifth Pokemon, as much as there is room for all these other Pokemon in balls. Pichu is a definite removal.

Metroid - 2
Samus/Zamus
Ridley

Dark Samus deserves to be in, but there isn't enough room... Sadly. Samus/Zamus confirmed. Ridley's in the 'Melee opening and plays a massive role in the games, even the Japan-popular ones. It's a start for a big Nintendo series that is under-represented...

Earthbound/Mother - 1
Ness

Mother doesn't need another character. Either Ness gets the axe for Lucas, or Ness stays. Sacrifices here are for the best of others.

Other - 5
Pit
Wario
Yoshi
Balloon Fighter
Captain Olimar
G&W
IC

I replaced Phoenix Wright with Olimar. Vali convinced me with his knowledge of Pikmin and intelligent deliberation. Pit and Wario are confirmed. Yoshi's practically confirmed. IC and G&W are replaced by Balloon Fighter, as they both are very one-dimensional and so replaceable anyway. We also have retro representation with the 3rd-party characters, so adding in retired characters for the very sake it not needed.

3rd-Party - 3
Sonic
Megaman
Snake

Sonic's practically confirmed. Snake is confirmed. Megaman is critically less likely, but if the rights can be obtained then it will happen. And with the decline in popularity of recent Megaman games, I see it happening just for the sake of Megaman and Capcom being stapled to the credits of 'Brawl.

Total - 40

That wasn't so hard... Not too much fun getting rid of Dark Samus or Skull kid, but it's as accurate as it will get.

 

[Vali]

Pretty awesome list, no problems here whatsoever so you can have a healthy 9.7/10

I think this time around it differs from my list only in that you have Samurai Goroh for my Dark Samus and both Falco + Marth returning where I've placed newcomers Poo and Commander Kahn . While obviously I prefer the way I've done it I think you might actually be more correct than my list, but if the loyal EBA fanatics don't put old Kahn down then no-one will.

In the case of SG vs DS I could say that Metroid is undoubtedly more important than the F-Zero franchise, especially with F-Zero in it's current state where no Wii game is currently announced (or possibly planned). Miyamoto was also furious about F-Zero GX for some reason, despite the fact it was a good game I think he was unhappy about it and also the fact that it didn't sell too well. I still have my copy ^^. However there's also the point that Metroid will have 3 representatives to F-Zero's 1, so adding another to the Metroid franchise is a bit unfair. And that Prime/Metroid isn't too popular over in Japan. Well, we keep Metroid and they keep Tingle, sounds like a fair trade to me.

Nothing really to say about Falco and Marth, both really popular and out of the characters tinkering on the brink of being cut, probably have the best chance to return. However with that said, I'm pro-new so my inclusions of newcomers over returning imbalanced top tier characters are evidently biased. Like SG and DS they could very easily go either way.

Oh dear, naughty Smash Daddy. Looks like someone put Samus/Zsamus down as 1 character. That (like a lot of people seem to be doing on this thread >.>) gives you a total of 41 characters, tut tut. I was trying to see what the hell you cut for Balloon Fighter from my own list . Looks like you'll have to get 0.3/10 instead *shakes head sadly*. Honestly I don't know where you people get the idea that having to create an entirely different model, animation, moveset and the works doesn't warrent the addition as a character on the list because she's not a "pure" character addition.

 

[Smady]

Pretty awesome list, no problems here whatsoever so you can have a healthy 9.7/10

I think this time around it differs from my list only in that you have Samurai Goroh for my Dark Samus and both Falco + Marth returning where I've placed newcomers Poo and Commander Kahn . While obviously I prefer the way I've done it I think you might actually be more correct than my list, but if the loyal EBA fanatics don't put old Kahn down then no-one will.

In the case of SG vs DS I could say that Metroid is undoubtedly more important than the F-Zero franchise, especially with F-Zero in it's current state where no Wii game is currently announced (or possibly planned). Miyamoto was also furious about F-Zero GX for some reason, despite the fact it was a good game I think he was unhappy about it and also the fact that it didn't sell too well. I still have my copy ^^. However there's also the point that Metroid will have 3 representatives to F-Zero's 1, so adding another to the Metroid franchise is a bit unfair. And that Prime/Metroid isn't too popular over in Japan. Well, we keep Metroid and they keep Tingle, sounds like a fair trade to me.

Nothing really to say about Falco and Marth, both really popular and out of the characters tinkering on the brink of being cut, probably have the best chance to return. However with that said, I'm pro-new so my inclusions of newcomers over returning imbalanced top tier characters are evidently biased. Like SG and DS they could very easily go either way.

Oh dear, naughty Smash Daddy. Looks like someone put Samus/Zsamus down as 1 character. That (like a lot of people seem to be doing on this thread >.>) gives you a total of 41 characters, tut tut. I was trying to see what the hell you cut for Balloon Fighter from my own list . Looks like you'll have to get 0.3/10 instead *shakes head sadly*. Honestly I don't know where you people get the idea that having to create an entirely different model, animation, moveset and the works doesn't warrent the addition as a character on the list because she's not a "pure" character addition.

You can't say you consider Zamus a character either, as you said that Metroid would have three characters and not four when referring to DS and SG and if DS was in.

Don't think you'll get away with such things! Zamus is indeed not considered an extra character, as Sheik was not considered a seperate character from Zelda. You unlock both at the same time, and use both within the same moveset. Whatever changes, if the character is used in the same model as another and by the same person then the two "characters" are one. Zamus and Samus are, in fact, the exact same person so not different. As would be the case if Link transformed into Wolf, or if Zelda returns with Sheik. She is not a seperate character!

I'll talk more about other stuff once you accept this.

 

[Vali]

Well I'll talk more about it when you realise that there's 26 characters in Melee yet only 25 character portraits. Hah.

I also stated adding another to the 3 pretty much confirmed Metroid characters (come on Ridley!) which would be Samus, ZSamus and Ridley, and adding a 4th character (Dark Samus) would be unfair to F-Zero who only has Captain Falcon.

The reason transformations are counted as a separate character is because they take just as long as a regular character. If a clone, which is a same (possibly luigified) moveset but different animations and the like counts as 1/3 of a character I don't see why a pretty much completely new character addition wouldn't count as 1 at all, just because she happens to be a transformation. Unless somehow not making a portrait for her on the character selection screen is 99% of the production time in a character .

Edit: On a different note though, I'd want ZSamus to not count as a different character. Reason being since I recently (as in today) remembered the Balloon Fighter was almost in Melee and I think I might have to cut someone from my list to accommodate him. At the end of the day it'll be Dark Samus that is going to go .

EditEdit: I need a sig. Someone say something hilarious so I can quote them and plonk it in there so I don't need to come up with anything witty or inventive myself.

 

[Devastlian]

Not a bad list deva, but seriously, where was Zsamus? No excuses!

Hmm...oh wait. Found her.

Metroid Team
Samus <---There she is.
Ridley- Somehow they should make this work and be awesome.

 

[NukeA6]

Oh well, let's rate the list:

Mario series
-From Mario to Bowser I agree.

As for Bowser Jr., I'm really starting to see something. B Jr. is starting to become a recurring villain and will most likely be in every game Bowser appears. I can see his chances in this game. I don't think he'll wield a paint brush or have a Dark Mario transformation.


Zelda Series
Link I agree. Wind Waker Link I do not. Do we really need another Link when the Zelda series has more interesting characters?

I agree Zelda will come but just because she is most likely going to be in her TP appearance doesn't mean Sheik is gone. Let's look at Mario; when was the last time he used his cape? It was back in Super Mario World and he didn't have it in his recent games. But they added it anyway. Let's not forget Link in SSB64 and Melee. He never used a boomerang when he was an adult.

Ganondorf I agree.

I doubt we'll see Midna in Brawl (especially in her human form) but it can happen all of sudden. After all, Dr. Mario entered the series before Wario (ironically).

You forgot Vaati who's the recurring villain in the Zelda series (after Ganon himself).


Pokemon series
I agree with Pikachu, Jiggly, and Lucario taking the spot. I doubt Deoxys though. He seems more like a Pokemon that appears in a pokeball item.


Metroid series
Agreed, though I have doubts about Dark Samus. If she's in Brawl, she'll most likely be called Metroid Prime (cuz that's what she is).


Kirby series
Nothing wrong here. Wherever Kirby is, King Dedede just has to be there.


Star Fox series
We already know Fox is in. Krystal I can see in, though we'll probably see her in her Armada appearance and probably armed with a futuristic version of her staff.

I dunno about Wolf. He seems more of a clone than Falco would be.


DK series
True. K. Rool is a maybe. Nothing wrong here.


Fire Emblem series
Ike will be in the game. You know it too. I've seen enough of Black Knight. If I still had my list, for sure he would be in it. I want this guy for Brawl!

Sigurd has a chance since he's most popular FE lord in Japan and Sakurai isn't gonna ignore that country. Though I'm starting to doubt his chances during these times now. I wish Ayla was in the game. She and her daughter are the best swordswomen I've seen in any game.


F-Zero Series
Nothing here. My expectations are the same as yours in this category. Though, I wish they added any of the more interesting characters. I'm not too interested in Goroh.


Mother Series
I'm sure Ness will be back but I doubt Poo will he around. With Mother 3 around, Lucas would be a better choice. If Mother 3 never canceled for N64, we wouldn't have seen Ness.


Other Series
No comment about Yoshi, Wario, and Pit. I can't say Olimar's chances are very likely but he has a chance.

I can't picture Tom Nook in and I know the Miis won't make it since they are all different depending on the user's customization.

I dunno who Commander Kahn is, so I'll leave that alone.


3rd Party
Snake is in and we all know that. Sonic, Megaman, and Simon Belmont are common choices in this category and any of them could be in.

Sora won't be in. He's been in one game (Gameboy Advance) which got ported to the PS2. I like Kingdom Hearts but that game series has barely anything with Nintendo. Just look at the other 3rd party characters; they got a long history with Nintendo.

Geno is a popular one and has a cult complete with fundie members. He'd be a good choice but will he make it? We will have to see.


Characters that will go bye-bye
Dr. Mario is barely any different from Mario. He goes bye bye.

Mr. Game and Watch could be gone but it be a shame since he was one of the most original ones. Ice Climbers too (though i could care less bout them)

Why would they remove Mewtwo? He's the original ultimate Pokemon and he's still popular to this day. His fanbase outshines all the legendaries in the series.

Pichu is, no doubt, the most hated character in Melee. He goes bye-bye.

Marth is the original FE lord and had the most appearances (even was in the anime). Remove him? If he's gone, it will be Armageddon.

Roy was just a promotional character and is barely different from Marth when it comes to moves.

Sheik is not gonna disapear just because Zelda will have the TP look.

Falco can make a comeback but he can also be gone for good.


The Runners-up

Skull Kid is a good choice and has apepared in several Zelda games but does anyone care about him anymore?

We need FE characters like Miciaiah. We have enough swords. But it seems lords got the better representation (unless the non-lords are extremely popular).

I don't know Kalas.

Paper Mario won't be in. People want Dr. Mario out but now they want the plumber's paper version? -_-

Your list gets a 8/10.

 

[FSLMJM]

Ok, here's my updated predictions:

Mario Series (6):

Mario-of course he's in
Luigi-leave him as he was in Melee
Peach-maybe a little nerfed in Brawl
Bowser-needs to be much better in Brawl than he was in Melee
Bowser Jr.-almost guarenteed imo
Petey Piranha-ok he's not the most requested character and I don't give a s*** if you disagree. But he would just be awesome in Brawl

LOZ(4):

Link-already confirmed
Zelda-she'll make it
Ganondorf-hopefully not clone of C. Falcon
Midna-LOZ needs another villian

Star Fox(4):

Fox-already confirmed
Falco-frankly, I don't know why some people think he's gone
Krystal-more female characters needed
Wolf-every franchise needs a rival

Kirby(3):

Kirby-comfirmed
Meta Knight-comfirmed
King Dedede-would be perfect in Brawl

Donkey Kong(3):

DK-guarenteed to make it obviously
Diddy Kong-very surprised he wasn't in Melee
King K. Rool-every series needs a villian

Metroid(2):

Samus/Zero Suit Samus-confirmed
Ridley-villian needed, very surprised the Metroid series had only one rep in Melee

Pokemon(4):

Pikachu-confirmed
Jigglypuff-guarenteed to make it
Mewtwo-really needs to get improved in Melee
Lucario-he would own in Brawl

Wario(2):

Wario-confirmed
Waluigi-there should be all the Mario Bros in Brawl

Fire Emblem(3):

Marth-very popular, which means he likely won't get replaced
Ike-more swordsmen
Black Knight-the perfect villian from Fire Emblem

F-Zero(2):

C. Falcon-almost guarenteed
Samurai Goroh-F-Zero should have a rival rep

Other(7):

Yoshi-semi confirmed
Ness-guarenteed to make it
Pit-comfirmed
Captain Olimar-Brawl needs a Pikmin rep badly
Mr. Game & Watch-surprised that so many people want him to go
Ice Climbers-same as G & W
Issac-Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's under-appreciated game series

3rd Party(4):

Snake-comfirmed
Sonic-has a really high chance
Geno-very popular, on Sakurai's list
Chrono-I just want him to make it for some reason

Characters to be cut(4):

Dr. Mario-should be a costume for Mario
Pichu-honestly, I have no idea why he was included in Melee
Young Link-he's just a younger Link. His name says it all
Roy-more important characters from Fire Emblem are on the way

Ok thanks for reading, and rate please!

 

[Chief Mendez]

Long post AHOY!

Could you people write any less about stuff I want to repsond to?

I'm all for seeing completly unique movestes made up for characters like Capt. Falcon and Fox (both of whom had never seen been playable outside their ships prior to Smash). My problem is creating characters out of the blue. Smash Bros is about honouring great videogame characters from the greatest videogame series and including a playable character who isn't from a videogame would ruin the purity and pupose of the series.

If your version of Andross (the one with a torsoe and a lab coat) had ever appeared in a Star Fox game, (either in gameplay, a cut scene or even on the game manual) I would be all for him being included. However, the Andross we know and love has never apeared that way. He is known soley as a gian hoveering head and hands. Your character is one created in the minds of Star Fox fans, so he has no place next to the likes of Mario and Solid Snake.

Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think his lack of a visible body (he must have one: the head's always robotic) should cut him out of the running. Also, don't you think "ruin the purity and purpose of the series" is a bit outlandish?

Call me crazy, but I still think the games are the biggest (if not only) factor in deciding a character's worthiness for Smash. I could see why they would choose Pokemon who are popular from the anime since they are all equally devoid of importance or distinct personalities in the games, but I think they should at least choose Pokemon who have at least appeared in the recent games.

Technically, Mewoth is in DP, just not before you beat the Champion and unlock the National Dex. But I digress.

I agree with your point, but Pokemon is a special case. Jigglypuff is neither a particularly powerful Pokemon, nor a very ubiquitous one. But it's role in the anime made it pretty dang popular around the time SB64 made (I assume it stuck it out into Melee due to veternacy). The same applies for Mewtwo. RB came out in '96, 5 years prior to Melee. But his movie, Mewto Strikes Back, debuted only 2 or 3 years before, and a semi-sequel also starring him was released in '01. Pikachu's irrelevant, since he's the mascot of the franchise. Pichu (from what I've heard), was included not only for the obvious (a quota had to be met, and they were running low on time), but also because it's pretty popular in Japan...perhaps because the Pichu Brothers starred in their own Pikachu Short in 2000?

But hey, what do I know. I still can't fathom what people see in that series to begin with.

Exactly.

Wow. A character who jumps. Yep, that would be pretty awesome all right...

Hey, it could be done. And the absurdity (G&W?) would be right up there alongside, say, a plumber who's taken up a career jumping hundreds of feet in the air and slaughtering flying turtles. He'd definitely be a "joke" character in the same vein as G&W, but the fan-service would be enough to vaporize Canada.

In Melee, Yoshi had his own icon (the egg) while Mario and crew had the Mushroom icon. Yoshi also had maps from Yoshi's Island 64 (the only game where Yoshi appeared without Mario - Baby or otherwise) so it looks like Sakurai considers Yoshi to be the star of his own series, and that's really all that matters.

That's all true, but I'm trying to be general here. Anyway, I don't really remember why this is a point of argument...I think Vali brought up that I didn't have enough Mario characters or something...

Yeah, that says something alright. It says that he could be included in a fraction of the development time of an original character - making him more likely (not less) than Maciaiah or any other Fire Emblem character.

So you really think that FE still only warrants one original character and a clone? The Black Knight, if anything, would be more of a "last resort" in a case where there's a month until deadline, and "Oh crap--we forgot Fire Emblem!"

Also, I think you underestimate Brawl's resources. This is probably going to be the best-selling "hardcore" game one Wii (Brain Age or a Nintendogs sequel might beat it), and Ninty knows it. 40 characters, new levels, items, and modes (online) are included, not to mention the promised single-player upgrade will (probably) be produced in less time than Melee's development cycle. That says something to me.

Namco can easily be represented by Pacman...duh...

I would say Pac-Man, but have you actually played a Pac-Man World game? They're just about the most uninspired games imaginable; I wouldn't want a character from a game like that (who himself is no more inspired) tainting Smash.

Me. What would his grab move be? Jump? His down B? Jump? His up B? Hm, that one's a little trickier.

He'd just stick out his "hand" and grab you, a la Game & Watch. I never said (or did I? No really, did I?) he'd consist of only three sprites, did I?

(He'd have one single, reeeeeaaaalllly long jump. His down B would be a short jump followed by a fast drop to the ground, generating shockwaves. His up B would send him spinning--like when you get hit by a barrel in the game--in place, trapping enemies and hitting repeatedly. No need for recovery when his jump is so long and tall!)

Spoiler

Holocaut

I think it's actually

Spoiler

"Hocotate"

.

Well, that was fun. Good night, all!

 

[Johnknight1]

I've played DKC 1, 2, and 3. I will; admit that I didn't enjoy 3 as much as the first two, but I still don't find Dixie that appealing, at least to the extent that she would be a decent character without riding on Diddy's coattails.

Well I disagree, Diddy is my fav Kong and all, but Dixie is shortly after, she's just as awsome.

again, how is Chrono not overpowered? by the Endgame (which is where the characters seem to stem from) You've got two levels of lighting, and Luminaire witch is the Ultimate Kill-all. You've got seriously damaging sword techs, and a chrono with maxed stats and the best armor and weaponry. Crono is overpowered the same way Sora, or any main hero is by the end of the game. He's a Parisite God killer. Now, I don't think Sora will be included, but to say he's overpowered whi;le Crono isn't is laughable.

[/QUOTE]

Just give him the moves he uses in the begining, plus a fewe nerfed super moves (like what happened to Mewtwo, minus sucking), and give him a super move as a Brawl attack=done! Sora always can do those crazy midair combos, and having that in Brawl would be like doing Fox's downair 4 or 5 times in a row....bad, and god tier. Sora would have to be moded and nerfed way worse than Crono if they both were done right.

I never said that Chrono and Geno didn't have chances, only that one is purely retro, and the other developed a cult following. The simple fact is that Sora is more recent, and while CoM is his only nintendo related title, is not where most of his popularity stems from (the same with Snake.) ALso Crono only starred in Chrono trigger, he cameod in Cross as one of those 'ghost' children along with Nadia and Lucca. In Radical Dreamers, the game from which Chrono Cross was born, the only recurring player from the first game was Magus, under the alias of Gil. By the time CC was released, this was no longer the case.

IDK, I've only played Crono Trigger, and seen Cross. Geno cameod in Mario and Luigi Parters in Time, or the presequal. Fact is they both have cult followings, they both are legendary games, and they are the exact type of retro characters we want for Brawl. Seriously I like Crono and Geno a lot more than Sora, I gotta be honest, plus they are both wanted by us old school gamers who want to see old faces, but totlaly new and redone, much like the IC, G&W, and Pit. If either make it, I'll sure as hell be happy.

Well, it looks like Sakurai has taken the weekend off from updating his site - but I am not so cruel. I just updated my Runner Up category with yet another character. (Hold you applause, please.)

On the Wiseguy thread, DEBATE LIVES!

hmm...Intresting development in the runner ups. Paper Mario strikes me, he could go either way, just like Bowser Jr. could go either way IMO.

I disagree somewhat. If Brawl is ever going to get out of Melee's shadow, the Smash Team needs to focus on making Brawl its own unique game - and that inevitably means cutting old characters, stages and items in favor of all new ones. Though I completly agree on adding as many new features as possible and balancing the tier list.

Ahh, Melee is practiaclly perfect, and I don' want Nintendo to fiddle too much with perfection, like Namco did from Pac-man to Pac-man 2=total disaster. The SSBB team just needs to remake Melee, add a few new movement and dodging phiyscs (hopefully everyone can crawl and wall jump this time! ), add new features, add awsome and primaraly reconizable charactes (with a few retro characters), new items (plus add the old ones, return the BUMPER to us NOW!!!!, without taking the Flipper away... ), new stages (yae returning stages), etc.

Overall that equals Melee redone, plus a original game, and keeping the tiers as near perfect as they were in Melee, if not better is essential. Hopefully the tiers represent the most popular (and easiest to pickup) characters primaraly over which ones are the best, like they were in Melee and SSB64. Melee is etremely close to perfect, and hopefully Brawl will be an improvement, with it's own personal spin, much like SSB64 to Melee, but better, and finally with online!

Yeah, but the series just doesn't have the historical signifinca to the videogames industry that Mario or Zelda have. Pokemon is great for those who enjoy it, but I wouldn't put it in the same leauge as Mario or Zelda.

It has as big as a fanbase as Zelda, if not better! Seriously, Pokemon basically has sold 4 times as many units as Zelda! It's got a far bigger fanbase, and the D/P are basically the return to the golden days of Pokemon (Red and BLue, though I liek Crystal, Silver, and Gold a lot more). Not to mention Pokemon D/P are abou to pass NEW Super Mario Bros as the best selling DS game, and very well could double it in sales.

I was joking about replacing Zelda's down-B with a self destruct (mostly...).

Sure you were....

I think an entirely new moveset is the way to go - one based on her role in Twilight Princess.

Agree, but while still feeling like the same old Zelda, just with a new and betr twist. As long as she doesn't loose her old touch, a swordbased moveset would be pretty nice, without totally destroying and dumping her old moveset.

Kahn is unlikely, but he is also just the kind of surprise character Sakurai likes to include. By conventional logic, the relatively unknown Ness wouldn't have gotten in SSB 64, ICs and G&W would never have been considered for Melee and Snake wouldn't be in Brawl. Sakurai loves to surprise so someone LIKE Kahn is Brawl is a given.

Earthbound is still considered by quite a lot of people one of the greatest games ever made, plus it was one of the N64's best selling games. Snake was included because he is classical, awsome, reconizable, and is the star of one of the 40 best selling series of all time (Metal Gear).

G&W was choosen because he was Nintendo's first big video gaming hit, and Ice Climber was backup for SMB in the NES release to the world, and thus we have the Ice Climbers. Kahn doesn't have as good reasoning as G&W, IC, or Snake, but he would be intresting to see how he would turn out to say the least.

Nook's appearance has no bearing on how powerful he will be. They could make him as weak or strong as they see fit.

Not too many people would want to play as him, he'd be the Pichu of Brawl most likely.

Falco is important to the series, so his appearance in Melee was well deserved. But now you have two other worthy SF characters (Krystal and Wolf) waiting in the wings. The way I see it, Falco has already had his turn. Now its time for someone new to take his place.

Dump Nook, add Falco, there you go. Besides, Falco keeps playing worthy rolls in the series, and his fate in the future is the the least predictable (other than Fox and Krystal, which could be wierd or intresting), thanks to the hugggeee plot twist set by SF Command. Hell, he's so mysterious, he could snap and become evil at any moment, plus we don't know as much about him in terms of what he does outside of Star Fpx, as we do Wolf or Krystal. He's a big mystery, and is a intresting character that keeps adding plots into the game, plus he's friggen awsome!

Because there are more worthy characters who could be included as Luigified clones instead. I suspect Wolf will be Falco's new clone and the Black Knight will be Ike's.

Wolf would be original, and I can't stress how much I doubt the Black Knight. Wolf could sorta be Luigified, but a little more original I'm guessing is how he'll turn out. However, Falco will stay as Fox's clone, but he'll be moded a little heavier.

Nook is more than just a "racoon who sells you stuff", he's the villian (and most important character) in Animal Crossing, a series that has enjoyed incredible success on both the Gamecube and DS. Nook is a maniacial slum lord who cons unsuspecting folk into buying his overpriced homes, and then watches them work themselves to death trying to pay off their huge debt. Soon, the player feels compelled to get a bigger house, and the cycle begins again. Basically, Nook is a metaphor for capitalism.

YAE caitolism

Conversly, Falco is a talking parrot who shoots at crap in his spaceship who's doomed to play seconf fiddle to a talking Fox for his entire existance.

But what if he turns evil, joins Star Wolf as their new 4th member, or goes solo permanetly=??? He's a giant plot twist waiting to happen, and Nook doesn't have anywhere as near as large as a fanbase as Wolf, Krystal, or Falco. A ton more people would rather have Wolf, Krystal, and/or Falco over Nook, who's a taturaru (or watever) in a series that will never have anything to do with fighting vs. a total shot the **** out of enemies in and out of a ship series, with major plot twists!

And as any VGcats reader knows, Nook has a dark side:
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=169

We all have a dark side...just look at Darth Vader!!!!

Geno to really popular among longtime Nintendo fans, but I doubt that too many Square Enix fans care that much if he is included or not.

A lot of Mario fans do, and just look at the Geno for Brawl thread, it's hugggeee!!! Mario and RPG fans alike would love th see Geno in, but he might have to fight to the death with Crono or Megaman for that spot.

DQ IX has no main character, you create yours from scratch - so I don't think that is an option.

Show's how much I know! I haven't played a DQ game in like 4 years, I got to be honest!

Sora, like Nook, could be as powerful or weak as they see fit. Smash is not a realistic depiction of any character's strength.

Soras sideair would be like Fox's downair's max damage combo, but with 5 times the damage=invicible. Nook would make Pichu look like God, noone would play him, noone would want to play him, and he wouldn't be that good. There are tons better choices, and a lot more popular characters then this guy.

I know, any game company who be foolish to refuse to allow their character to be inlcuded - but they may demand a hefty price of admission and Nintendo knows that Smash will be a best seller anyway, so why would they pay it? Here's hoping you're right that Sega and Capcom see reason.

Capcom I know is smart, and they love Nintendo, and Nintendo most of the time sends the love back. However, Sega isn't the same, they were rivals after all. Plus add Namco and Pac-Man as possibility, and you get the picture. Boo!!! Pac-Man, yae Sonic and Megaman, noone wants you Pac-Man compared to the legendary Sonic or Megaman, GO AWAY!!!!

I don’t know, the recent Castelvanias on DS have been fairly big hits. Also, Castelvania is ranked by many as one of the greatest game series ever. Also, Belmont would have a far more unique moveset.

Castlevania is a good game, but does Castlevania DS star Belmont=I haven't played it, but I heard it was good. Megaman is bigger though, just look at the sales records, plus the endless number of TV shows Megaman has had, though Castlevania was virtually the Resident Evil of the NES and SNES era=friggen awsome games=Castlevania ftw! Though Sonic and Megaman games are much better IMO.

I think Golden Sun is owned by Camelot – although they do have a strong partnership with Nintendo. If Sega or Capcom won’t play ball, Issac’s chances increase dramatically.

IDK anything about this, I gotta be honest. All I know is Camelot makes the Mario Sports games, and Mario Party games, so I think that means they're a 2nd party company. I could be wrong, though I've never heard of a Camelot Xbox or PS game before.

I played a little DKC back in the day over at my friend’s house. But my first game system was the N64, so I didn’t beat a single player game until I played LoZ: Majora’s Mask

DKC 2....good times, good times. First game I beat....SMW=I can barely beat that now. Ya, I had mad skillz, that I can't lose=o ya!!! DKC2=ya I remeber that, played that all the time, but then I got a N64, and my dad being a idiot sold by SNES and NES=me going crazy (though fortunately I somehow had 2 NES). Ya, DKC2=good times, good times.

1)EBA > New Super Mario Bros. Just ask IGN and Nintendo Power. Unfortunately, most DS owners failed to realize this…

2)G&W may have been big back in the day, but compared to most other Nintendo franchises, he’s irrelevant today. His Melee appearance was tribute enough. Now some other awesome character deserves the same treatment.

3)True, but he’s not any more unlikely than G&W was.

4)Is G&W really that original? Sure, he’s 2-D and he wacks people with a turtle, but compared to characters like Ice Climbers, Olimar and Mii he isn’t all that special.

5) You win that bet too. 24 is the greatest TV series ever! How am I ever going to be able to wait an entire year for season 7?!

1.I disagree, I love EBA< but New Super Mario Bros is like the ultimate combination of SMB3 and SM64+it's own personal twist. Considering those are my 2 favorite Mario games, that made me pretty happy, even if I beat it in just 8 or so hours, the mini-games are pretty awsome.

2.He's still used to this day in games. He's been in Wario Ware, those E card things that he GBA had before the DS, etc. He's retro, but he's still used!

3.G&W is a classic, EBA is well...newer, but in 15 or so years it could be the same, or a new click on series like Pokemon or Metroid.

4.Ya, it's hard to explain but there is jus something about him that makes Melee a lot funner. He's neat, and when combined with IC, you get the most original characters the SSB series will probably ever see!

5.What about South Park, Family Guy, or the Simpsoms=??? Anyways, it's pretty awsome, though I only watch it on occasion, and you can spend your time knitting the hours away=o joy! Or you could just wait for the new Brawl news in July, and then say "zomg, that's awsome news!"all over the SWF!

Paula may have more impressive abilities in her game of origin, but Poo just strikes me as a more awesome character – in terms of appearance and personality. I think most people would agree.

But that name is laughable, that reason alone kills him. Palua rivals Ness for the best of the four in terms of power and PSI abilities, as well as overall abilities. I actually like Jeff the most (other than Ness of course!), because he can make and use weapons, plus he has so many weapons he would be very intresting. Still, I want Lucas the most for Brawl without replacing Ness, alond with Mother 3 coming to NA and Europe=the best day...EVER!!!!

Don’t you see? If some of the characters were clones, Geno, Deoxys and others wouldn’t have to be cut. We could have 45 characters, only 9 of them would be Luigified clones! what’s wrong with that?

Luigified is the important word there. Or we could have a ton of Nintendo staff stop worrying about other games and focus on Brawl like it's their only key and way to reach victory this generation of gaming (which it is). They need to get as much staff as they can, work with Sakurai, Miyamoto, and the SSBB team, plus get Ape, Game Freak, HAL, etc. to help the cause. Nintendo needs to get desperate, working to the bone, with a huge and heavily talented staff to pull it off, and it WILL WORK.

Plus, if the Wii gets a harddrive, the downloadable content could save them some blood, sweat, and tears! Overall, they need to want this more than Sony or Microsoft with their biggest games, and downloadable content is the way to go. I don't mind 1-4 clones, but 9 is a strech, and with this big of a staff 9 is far too many clones. Luigified is yet again the key word, that can change this whole scenario around again and again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klonoa

Klonoa was essentially the PS1 equivalent of Viewtiful Joe. He’s also been a few GBA games, I believe.

Thank you, but Klonoa still isn' ever going to happen.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Fact is they both have cult followings, they both are legendary games, and they are the exact type of retro characters we want for Brawl. Seriously I like Crono and Geno a lot more than Sora, I gotta be honest, plus they are both wanted by us old school gamers who want to see old faces, but totlaly new and redone, much like the IC, G&W, and Pit. If either make it, I'll sure as hell be happy.

Superstar Saga (Geno's cameo) and SMRPG aren't what I'd call 'legendary'. Cult: yes. But "legendary" is Ocarina, Half-Life, FF VII, and Mario 64.

Also, it should be noted that not alot of people know who Geno is. Outside of places like this, he's not very iconic. Crono, on the other hand, hails from one of those "legendary" games, and even if someone didn't recognize him at first, when they hear "Chrono Trigger", they'd at least know something about the character.

 

[Sniffnoy]

Also Zant is another good choice for a zelda character...

I don't think Zant is very likely, but there's no denying that he would be hilarious.

 

[Vali]

Hmm...oh wait. Found her.

Noooooo...that's just Samus.

And Mendez you said a moveset based around jumping, no hands allowed .

Midna-LOZ needs another villian!

Crazy person says "what?"

 

[Evolver]

Nook would make Pichu look like God, noone would play him, noone would want to play him, and he wouldn't be that good. There are tons better choices, and a lot more popular characters then this guy.

i would play as tom nook just to beat the others with him :D *hahahahahahaha*

on a serious note:
why shouldn't they inculde Tom Nook? Animal Crossing is one good selling Francise, and should be somehow represented. Sure they don't fight in that game, but tom nook says in the GC-Version that he used to be a fighter.

 

[Wiseguy]

Geez that's a lot of long posts, which means that mine will be an ultra long. But I'm never going to beat McFox's thread in length unless I keep the debate going!

In other news, today's Smash Dojo undate was another piece of info we already knew: Mario Final Smash attack - but at least we now know to call it that. I suspect that Sakurai is under embargo to refrain from revealing anything substancial, so he is he purposely spreading out the info we already know so he will run out by, oh I don't know, mid July. Wait, isn't that when Nintendo has a game game event lined up? What is is called again? E-"Something"? Probably a cooincidence.

Oh well, let's rate the list:

Mario series
-From Mario to Bowser I agree.

As for Bowser Jr., I'm really starting to see something. B Jr. is starting to become a recurring villain and will most likely be in every game Bowser appears. I can see his chances in this game. I don't think he'll wield a paint brush or have a Dark Mario transformation.

I don't see a transformation either, but why not the paint brush? I would make Boweser Jr. a far more unique fighter.

Zelda Series
Link I agree. Wind Waker Link I do not. Do we really need another Link when the Zelda series has more interesting characters?

WW Link is just as deserving as TP Link. He is a separate character entirely and he has his own unique personality and abilities. He also represents LoZ: Windwaker: one of the greatest games in the series, and the upcoming sequel LoZ: Phantom Hourglass.

I agree Zelda will come but just because she is most likely going to be in her TP appearance doesn't mean Sheik is gone. Let's look at Mario; when was the last time he used his cape? It was back in Super Mario World and he didn't have it in his recent games. But they added it anyway. Let's not forget Link in SSB64 and Melee. He never used a boomerang when he was an adult.

These are false comparisons. Mario has use his from any of his games, including his cape, becuase there is only one Mario. OoT Link could use his boomerang becuase it appeared in his game of origin and is a staple of the Zelda series.

Conversly, TP Zelda is a separate individual from every other Zelda that came before - including OoT Zelda. It would be just as out of place for TP Zelda to transform into Sheik (who was unique to OoT Zelda) as it would be for her to transform into Tetra from WW.

Its also worth noting that Sheik would be just as time consuming to program into the game as any other unique character - so its not as simple as giving Link his boomerang attack.

I doubt we'll see Midna in Brawl (especially in her human form) but it can happen all of sudden. After all, Dr. Mario entered the series before Wario (ironically).

I think you underestimate her chances. Twilight Princess is the most popular Zelda at the moment.

You forgot Vaati who's the recurring villain in the Zelda series (after Ganon himself).

The Four Sword games (ie: Four Sword, Four Sword Adventures, Minish Cap) are not nearly as high profile as TP or WW/PH. I think most people exagerate his importance to the series.

Pokemon series
I agree with Pikachu, Jiggly, and Lucario taking the spot. I doubt Deoxys though. He seems more like a Pokemon that appears in a pokeball item.

I'm not an expert on the series, so I won't consest your claim. Any suggestions on another new Pokemon who could replace Mewtwo?

Metroid series
Agreed, though I have doubts about Dark Samus. If she's in Brawl, she'll most likely be called Metroid Prime (cuz that's what she is).

Dark Samus is always referred to as Dark Samus in the games, so I think they would keep the name for Brawl.

Star Fox series
We already know Fox is in. Krystal I can see in, though we'll probably see her in her Armada appearance and probably armed with a futuristic version of her staff.

I dunno about Wolf. He seems more of a clone than Falco would be.

The Smash team could design Wolf's moveset exactly the same as Falco's or completly different. Its entirely up the them. The fact that they are both canines is irrelivent.

Fire Emblem series
Ike will be in the game. You know it too. I've seen enough of Black Knight. If I still had my list, for sure he would be in it. I want this guy for Brawl!

Sigurd has a chance since he's most popular FE lord in Japan and Sakurai isn't gonna ignore that country. Though I'm starting to doubt his chances during these times now. I wish Ayla was in the game. She and her daughter are the best swordswomen I've seen in any game.

I'm glad to hear that yet another person supports the Black Knight. Besides Olimar, he's the character I would mot like to see in Brawl.

Having only characters from Path of Radiance wouldn't be ignoring Japanese fans. PoR is loved by FE fans world wide - including Japan.

F-Zero Series
Nothing here. My expectations are the same as yours in this category. Though, I wish they added any of the more interesting characters. I'm not too interested in Goroh.

Poor Goroh. Noone seems to like him...

Mother Series
I'm sure Ness will be back but I doubt Poo will he around. With Mother 3 around, Lucas would be a better choice. If Mother 3 never canceled for N64, we wouldn't have seen Ness.

Since Ness' game was the only one to see international release, I don't see any characters from the other two games as very likely. Still, I could be wrong.

Other Series
No comment about Yoshi, Wario, and Pit. I can't say Olimar's chances are very likely but he has a chance.

I can't picture Tom Nook in and I know the Miis won't make it since they are all different depending on the user's customization.

I dunno who Commander Kahn is, so I'll leave that alone.

1) Why isn't Olimar very likely? His series is owned by Nintendo, he represents one of the Gamecubes more successful new franchises and he would be the more original than any other character in the series.

2) Nook may be hard to picture, but I think we would have said the same about Snake year ago.

3) The only thing different about each Mii would be their face. Their size, shape and moveset would be standardized.

4) Kahn is from Elite Beat Agents for the DS. You should really check it out.

3rd Party
Snake is in and we all know that. Sonic, Megaman, and Simon Belmont are common choices in this category and any of them could be in.

Sora won't be in. He's been in one game (Gameboy Advance) which got ported to the PS2. I like Kingdom Hearts but that game series has barely anything with Nintendo. Just look at the other 3rd party characters; they got a long history with Nintendo.

Geno is a popular one and has a cult complete with fundie members. He'd be a good choice but will he make it? We will have to see.

Snakes appearances on Nintendo consoles (on the NES and Gamecube) were both ports as well. Like Sora, he is more commonly associated with Sony - but his appearance on at least one Nintendo platform makes him eligable for Brawl. If Square is open to the idea, I see no reason why he can't appear.

Marth is the original FE lord and had the most appearances (even was in the anime). Remove him? If he's gone, it will be Armageddon.

Ike has had as many appearances in FE games as Marth (2) and unlike Marth, both of them have been released internationally. Ike is also popular in both Japan and North America - as well as every where else. Any way you slice it, Ike makes a better representative for the series.

The Runners-upPaper Mario won't be in. People want Dr. Mario out but now they want the plumber's paper version? -_-

Your list gets a 8/10.

Dr. Mario was a great addition to the melee roster - the only reason he should be cut is his relative unimportance of his series (and the lack of new Dr. Mario games).

Anyway, that's for taking the time to read my thread and give me honest opinions.

Ok, here's my updated predictions:

Mario Series (6):

Mario-of course he's in
Luigi-leave him as he was in Melee
Peach-maybe a little nerfed in Brawl
Bowser-needs to be much better in Brawl than he was in Melee
Bowser Jr.-almost guarenteed imo
Petey Piranha-ok he's not the most requested character and I don't give a s*** if you disagree. But he would just be awesome in Brawl

LOZ(4):

Link-already confirmed
Zelda-she'll make it
Ganondorf-hopefully not clone of C. Falcon
Midna-LOZ needs another villian

Star Fox(4):

Fox-already confirmed
Falco-frankly, I don't know why some people think he's gone
Krystal-more female characters needed
Wolf-every franchise needs a rival

Kirby(3):

Kirby-comfirmed
Meta Knight-comfirmed
King Dedede-would be perfect in Brawl

Donkey Kong(3):

DK-guarenteed to make it obviously
Diddy Kong-very surprised he wasn't in Melee
King K. Rool-every series needs a villian

Metroid(2):

Samus/Zero Suit Samus-confirmed
Ridley-villian needed, very surprised the Metroid series had only one rep in Melee

Pokemon(4):

Pikachu-confirmed
Jigglypuff-guarenteed to make it
Mewtwo-really needs to get improved in Melee
Lucario-he would own in Brawl

Wario(2):

Wario-confirmed
Waluigi-there should be all the Mario Bros in Brawl

Fire Emblem(3):

Marth-very popular, which means he likely won't get replaced
Ike-more swordsmen
Black Knight-the perfect villian from Fire Emblem

F-Zero(2):

C. Falcon-almost guarenteed
Samurai Goroh-F-Zero should have a rival rep

Other(7):

Yoshi-semi confirmed
Ness-guarenteed to make it
Pit-comfirmed
Captain Olimar-Brawl needs a Pikmin rep badly
Mr. Game & Watch-surprised that so many people want him to go
Ice Climbers-same as G & W
Issac-Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's under-appreciated game series

3rd Party(4):

Snake-comfirmed
Sonic-has a really high chance
Geno-very popular, on Sakurai's list
Chrono-I just want him to make it for some reason

Characters to be cut(4):

Dr. Mario-should be a costume for Mario
Pichu-honestly, I have no idea why he was included in Melee
Young Link-he's just a younger Link. His name says it all
Roy-more important characters from Fire Emblem are on the way

Ok thanks for reading, and rate please!

[/QUOTE]

Hey, long time no see.

While I don't agree on everything, your roster has drastically improved. I give it 8/10

Some of the others on this thread have tried to make a roster of 40 characters (with each original character couting for one character slot and each clone counting for 1/3). If you had to widdle you roster down to 40, how would you do it?

Could you people write any less about stuff I want to repsond to?

I feel your pain Mendez.

Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think his lack of a visible body (he must have one: the head's always robotic) should cut him out of the running. Also, don't you think "ruin the purity and purpose of the series" is a bit outlandish?

No, I don't. As soon as characters who havn't appeared in video games like "Professor" Andorss, it opens to door to others - like *shudders* Shigeru Miamoto as a playable character.

Technically, Mewoth is in DP, just not before you beat the Champion and unlock the National Dex. But I digress.

I agree with your point, but Pokemon is a special case. Jigglypuff is neither a particularly powerful Pokemon, nor a very ubiquitous one. But it's role in the anime made it pretty dang popular around the time SB64 made (I assume it stuck it out into Melee due to veternacy). The same applies for Mewtwo. RB came out in '96, 5 years prior to Melee. But his movie, Mewto Strikes Back, debuted only 2 or 3 years before, and a semi-sequel also starring him was released in '01. Pikachu's irrelevant, since he's the mascot of the franchise. Pichu (from what I've heard), was included not only for the obvious (a quota had to be met, and they were running low on time), but also because it's pretty popular in Japan...perhaps because the Pichu Brothers starred in their own Pikachu Short in 2000?

Fine. You win. I'm not eqiped to debate someone on the merits of the Pokemon series.

Hey, it could be done. And the absurdity (G&W?) would be right up there alongside, say, a plumber who's taken up a career jumping hundreds of feet in the air and slaughtering flying turtles. He'd definitely be a "joke" character in the same vein as G&W, but the fan-service would be enough to vaporize Canada.

If Canada were vaporized, you would regret it. As America's largest source of Maple Syrup, snow cones, and Hockey Players your civilaztion would crumble without us.

Luckily, I have nothing to worry about. Jumpman has been in Smash Bros since the SSB 64 (you might know him as "Mario") and I'm still here.

So you really think that FE still only warrants one original character and a clone? The Black Knight, if anything, would be more of a "last resort" in a case where there's a month until deadline, and "Oh crap--we forgot Fire Emblem!"

Also, I think you underestimate Brawl's resources. This is probably going to be the best-selling "hardcore" game one Wii (Brain Age or a Nintendogs sequel might beat it), and Ninty knows it. 40 characters, new levels, items, and modes (online) are included, not to mention the promised single-player upgrade will (probably) be produced in less time than Melee's development cycle. That says something to me.

If It were up to me, all the Pokemon and Earthdound characters would be cut to make way for more Fire emblem reps - but it ain't gonna happen. FE is a very niche franchise - and I think one character and one clone is pretty fair.

I don't think I've underestimated brawl's resources. 40 characters is very reasonable. My cocer is that Sakurai will sepnd less time making as many characters as possible and focus on a more balanced roster - with about 35 characters.

I think it's actually

Spoiler

"Hocotate"

.

[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected.

Ahh, Melee is practiaclly perfect, and I don' want Nintendo to fiddle too much with perfection, like Namco did from Pac-man to Pac-man 2=total disaster. The SSBB team just needs to remake Melee, add a few new movement and dodging phiyscs (hopefully everyone can crawl and wall jump this time! ), add new features, add awsome and primaraly reconizable charactes (with a few retro characters), new items (plus add the old ones, return the BUMPER to us NOW!!!!, without taking the Flipper away... ), new stages (yae returning stages), etc.

Overall that equals Melee redone, plus a original game, and keeping the tiers as near perfect as they were in Melee, if not better is essential. Hopefully the tiers represent the most popular (and easiest to pickup) characters primaraly over which ones are the best, like they were in Melee and SSB64. Melee is etremely close to perfect, and hopefully Brawl will be an improvement, with it's own personal spin, much like SSB64 to Melee, but better, and finally with online!

Melee was more than a remake of SSB 64 - it was a acomplete reimagining of the series. As much as I love melee, I'd much rather see Sakurai reinvent the series all over again. I highly doubt that Sakurai will be content to just remake Melee, but we'll have to wait and see.

It has as big as a fanbase as Zelda, if not better! Seriously, Pokemon basically has sold 4 times as many units as Zelda! It's got a far bigger fanbase, and the D/P are basically the return to the golden days of Pokemon (Red and BLue, though I liek Crystal, Silver, and Gold a lot more). Not to mention Pokemon D/P are abou to pass NEW Super Mario Bros as the best selling DS game, and very well could double it in sales.

A series importance is judged by more than its popularity. Dragon Ball Z games far outsell Metal Gear Solid games - but the later is considered my many to be one of the greatest series in history while the former is not.

Pokemon games might sell well, but they haven't set the standard for what a videogame can be. The Zelda series has - multiple times.

Earthbound is still considered by quite a lot of people one of the greatest games ever made, plus it was one of the N64's best selling games. Snake was included because he is classical, awsome, reconizable, and is the star of one of the 40 best selling series of all time (Metal Gear).

G&W was choosen because he was Nintendo's first big video gaming hit, and Ice Climber was backup for SMB in the NES release to the world, and thus we have the Ice Climbers. Kahn doesn't have as good reasoning as G&W, IC, or Snake, but he would be intresting to see how he would turn out to say the least.

While the reasons behind including Ness, G&W and Snake were all different, they were all characters that no one would have expected. Sakurai loves to surprise us with seemigly unlikely characters - so someone like Kahn is all but guaranteed.

Not too many people would want to play as him, he'd be the Pichu of Brawl most likely.

A character's worthiness for Smash can't be judged by how many people will play as them. Yoshi, for example, is the most likely character is reurn from Melee - yet hardly anyone plays as him in my experience. The thing that determines whether a character is worthy to appear in Brawl is their importance to their imporatnce in their respective franchise and whether that franchise deserves representation. Character originality is also important - and Nook would definitely be original.

Besides, I'm not the only person who would like to play as Nook:

i would play as tom nook just to beat the others with him :D *hahahahahahaha*

on a serious note:
why shouldn't they inculde Tom Nook? Animal Crossing is one good selling Francise, and should be somehow represented. Sure they don't fight in that game, but tom nook says in the GC-Version that he used to be a fighter.

Case closed.

Dump Nook, add Falco, there you go. Besides, Falco keeps playing worthy rolls in the series, and his fate in the future is the the least predictable (other than Fox and Krystal, which could be wierd or intresting), thanks to the hugggeee plot twist set by SF Command. Hell, he's so mysterious, he could snap and become evil at any moment, plus we don't know as much about him in terms of what he does outside of Star Fpx, as we do Wolf or Krystal. He's a big mystery, and is a intresting character that keeps adding plots into the game, plus he's friggen awsome!

But what if he turns evil, joins Star Wolf as their new 4th member, or goes solo permanetly=??? He's a giant plot twist waiting to happen, and Nook doesn't have anywhere as near as large as a fanbase as Wolf, Krystal, or Falco. A ton more people would rather have Wolf, Krystal, and/or Falco over Nook, who's a taturaru (or watever) in a series that will never have anything to do with fighting vs. a total shot the **** out of enemies in and out of a ship series, with major plot twists!

I thnk you are overplaying the character depth of the Star Fox characters. SF isn't about the story as much as it is about shooting stuff.

Regardless, Nook's role as the forst most important Animal Crossing character outweighs Falco's role as third or fourth most important SF character. Last time I checked, Animal Crossing DS sold far for than Satr Fox Command.

We all have a dark side...just look at Darth Vader!!!!

Vader doesn't have a dark side. He has an awesome side:

and a wimpy side:

I wish they had gotten Kiefer Sutherland to play Anakin in the prequel trilogy. He could have single handed prevented those movies from sucking.

Capcom I know is smart, and they love Nintendo, and Nintendo most of the time sends the love back. However, Sega isn't the same, they were rivals after all. Plus add Namco and Pac-Man as possibility, and you get the picture. Boo!!! Pac-Man, yae Sonic and Megaman, noone wants you Pac-Man compared to the legendary Sonic or Megaman, GO AWAY!!!!

Hopfully, you're right about Capcom. But why all the pacman hate? Would he really be so terrible?

Castlevania is a good game, but does Castlevania DS star Belmont=I haven't played it, but I heard it was good. Megaman is bigger though, just look at the sales records, plus the endless number of TV shows Megaman has had, though Castlevania was virtually the Resident Evil of the NES and SNES era=friggen awsome games=Castlevania ftw! Though Sonic and Megaman games are much better IMO.

No, Belmont doesn't star in the DS games to my knowlege (haven't played them either) but I unserdtand he is the most prominent character in the series so he probably stands the best shot.

1.I disagree, I love EBA< but New Super Mario Bros is like the ultimate combination of SMB3 and SM64+it's own personal twist. Considering those are my 2 favorite Mario games, that made me pretty happy, even if I beat it in just 8 or so hours, the mini-games are pretty awsome.

2.He's still used to this day in games. He's been in Wario Ware, those E card things that he GBA had before the DS, etc. He's retro, but he's still used!

3.G&W is a classic, EBA is well...newer, but in 15 or so years it could be the same, or a new click on series like Pokemon or Metroid.

4.Ya, it's hard to explain but there is jus something about him that makes Melee a lot funner. He's neat, and when combined with IC, you get the most original characters the SSB series will probably ever see!

5.What about South Park, Family Guy, or the Simpsoms=??? Anyways, it's pretty awsome, though I only watch it on occasion, and you can spend your time knitting the hours away=o joy! Or you could just wait for the new Brawl news in July, and then say "zomg, that's awsome news!"all over the SWF!

1) Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But I still think that EBA is a great enough series to deserve a rep in Brawl.

2) Forgive me if I'm unimpressed that G&W has appeared in Wario Ware mini games. I'd hardly consider that a revivla of the series.

3) Current series trump retro series. Having a few forgotten characters as guests in Smash is fine, but not as peramanent characters in the series.

4) G&W is neat, but so are alot of other potential characters who deserve a turn in Smash.

5) Sorry, but 24 owns all those shows. Brawl news would be pretty much the only thing that could keep from going nuts as I wait for the next season.

But that name is laughable, that reason alone kills him. Palua rivals Ness for the best of the four in terms of power and PSI abilities, as well as overall abilities. I actually like Jeff the most (other than Ness of course!), because he can make and use weapons, plus he has so many weapons he would be very intresting. Still, I want Lucas the most for Brawl without replacing Ness, alond with Mother 3 coming to NA and Europe=the best day...EVER!!!!

IF Mother 3 gets localized, then fine. Otherwise, no deal.

Luigified is the important word there. Or we could have a ton of Nintendo staff stop worrying about other games and focus on Brawl like it's their only key and way to reach victory this generation of gaming (which it is). They need to get as much staff as they can, work with Sakurai, Miyamoto, and the SSBB team, plus get Ape, Game Freak, HAL, etc. to help the cause. Nintendo needs to get desperate, working to the bone, with a huge and heavily talented staff to pull it off, and it WILL WORK.

Plus, if the Wii gets a harddrive, the downloadable content could save them some blood, sweat, and tears! Overall, they need to want this more than Sony or Microsoft with their biggest games, and downloadable content is the way to go. I don't mind 1-4 clones, but 9 is a strech, and with this big of a staff 9 is far too many clones. Luigified is yet again the key word, that can change this whole scenario around again and again.

Having 9 clones wouldn't be a sign that Brawl isn't a great game. It just emans that the team decided to include 9 clones instead of 3 originasl movesets.

Thank you, but Klonoa still isn' ever going to happen.

No argument here.

I don't think Zant is very likely, but there's no denying that he would be hilarious.

I completely agree. Zant is one of my favorite boss fights in the series. Too bad he has so little chance...


Aaaannnnddd...... DONE! I'm free! So long suckers! Wiseguy out.

 

[Vali]

Wiseguy you gotta rant at all these people who aren't including ZSamus as a character on their lists. >.> You even gave someone a 10/10 even though he actually had 41 characters on his list!

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy you gotta rant at all these people who aren't including ZSamus as a character on their lists. >.> You even gave someone a 10/10 even though he actually had 41 characters on his list!

Really? I didn't count to make sure, but I assumed there were 40 characters total. Fine, I hereby change my score to 9/10.

Yeah, guys, Vali is right. Just becuase Zamus is a transformation doesn't mean she would be any less time consuming to program than any other character - and that's really why we can only exepct a maximum of 40 characters or there-abouts. If Zamus were as simple to include as any other attack, every character would have an alternate form.

And with that, I'm GONE! For real this time.

 

[Wasserman]

Hey Wiseguy, LOVE THE LIST! Seriously, my new favorite thread on the whole site, I think I will just be ahnging out here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said but I have a couple of comments.

I disagree with the bowser jr. prediction. Although he has been getting some spotlight as of late (New Super Mario Bros. DS) and what not, I just can't see him getting his own spot without being some kind of weird little Bowser clone....as he is just little bowser.

I think Toad has a much higher chance of getting in then Bowser Jr. I know you say he is boring but that is more of a personal preference thing than a fact, afterall I could see the same thing being said about Bowser Jr. or any wannabe character for that matter.

You did cave on Star Wolf because a lot of people showed you the light, and since a lot of people have been telling you this about Toad I feel like there is a chance you may start at least thinking it over more.

Another comment I had was about you talking about how certain characters aren't popular outside of Japan therefore they won't be included because Brawl is an international game, or implying this at least. I don't have the link available but I read in the SamuariPanda thread that Sak said that he would be adding characters that were popular in Japan and maybe not other places, that at least he would not be completely pressured by the outside world and therefore we should expect at least a few characters that are only popular in Japan. So we should keep that in mind when discussing FE characters and maybe Mother/Earthbound characters.


I apologize if any of this has been covered already as I read the first few pages but could not commit to reading them all. If so, I repent!

Keep up the good work!

 

[Vali]

Between Toad and Bowser Jr. there is very little, but the fact that Bowser Jr. is more recent, plays a villain role (which Brawl is putting more of in), will probably continue to be expanded upon and such means that he goes ahead. Toad recently has just become a generic race of people and the only notable Toad of late has been Toadsworth, who as I'm sure we can all agree, sucks. Now that Toad has been more of a generic character means that his chances are lessened due to the fact that there are no generic characters in Smash Bros. (exception of Pichu) as of yet, since Pikachu and Jigglypuff were both added in since they had specific appearances in the anime and were popular because of that. There's only one Mewtwo as well, and the fact that Pichu was more of a last minute addition as a clone means that I doubt we'll be seeing any more generic characters when he's cut for Brawl. I don't think anyone could honestly say they'd want to see Toadsworth ahead of Bowser Jr. for anything, specifically a spot in the Brawl roster.

That said, I find it interesting that you'd think of Bowser Jr. as a Bowser clone. The fact that he's small and has a paintbrush and everything would far separate him from his daddy. It's actually quite disturbing to think of him as Bowser's son actually I mean...no-one knows who his mummy is...Peach? >.> Kamek? <.<

 

[LordRalph_87]

Bowser Jnr could be a great character for originality purposes and he has a paintbrush that appears to be around 1.5 times his height. In conclusion ******* amuse me (toad isn't a ****** hes just stunted).

 

[Classic-Black]

That said, I find it interesting that you'd think of Bowser Jr. as a Bowser clone. The fact that he's small and has a paintbrush and everything would far separate him from his daddy. It's actually quite disturbing to think of him as Bowser's son actually I mean...no-one knows who his mummy is...Peach? >.> Kamek? <.<

Wendy O...you ARE the mother!!! Koopa incest yum yum...

 

[Wiseguy]

I tried to stay away, but I just couldn't help myself.

Hey Wiseguy, LOVE THE LIST! Seriously, my new favorite thread on the whole site, I think I will just be ahnging out here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said but I have a couple of comments.

I disagree with the bowser jr. prediction. Although he has been getting some spotlight as of late (New Super Mario Bros. DS) and what not, I just can't see him getting his own spot without being some kind of weird little Bowser clone....as he is just little bowser.

I think Toad has a much higher chance of getting in then Bowser Jr. I know you say he is boring but that is more of a personal preference thing than a fact, afterall I could see the same thing being said about Bowser Jr. or any wannabe character for that matter.

You did cave on Star Wolf because a lot of people showed you the light, and since a lot of people have been telling you this about Toad I feel like there is a chance you may start at least thinking it over more.

Another comment I had was about you talking about how certain characters aren't popular outside of Japan therefore they won't be included because Brawl is an international game, or implying this at least. I don't have the link available but I read in the SamuariPanda thread that Sak said that he would be adding characters that were popular in Japan and maybe not other places, that at least he would not be completely pressured by the outside world and therefore we should expect at least a few characters that are only popular in Japan. So we should keep that in mind when discussing FE characters and maybe Mother/Earthbound characters.


I apologize if any of this has been covered already as I read the first few pages but could not commit to reading them all. If so, I repent!

Keep up the good work!

Hey, thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you like the thread so feel free to hang out here all you like.

My beef with Toad is not so much that he would be boring, since any character could potentially be given a cool, original moveset (even Nook). However, I feel that a character with a magic paint brush has a greater chance of being a solid additon than a sentient mushroom (though I suppose he could shoot spores at his opponents...)

Also, here's the quote from Samerai Panda's thread:

"#171-180: In this update, Sakurai basically just says that since Smash Bros is popular throughout the world, he can't just use characters that are only popular in Japan. But then he brings up that it worked for the Fire Emblem characters. Once, a black man (yes, he said that) thanked Sakurai for creating Roy just for him."

It's kind of vauge, but I think his point is that he wants to cater to a worldwide audience so he is disinclined to include Japanese-only characters.

That said, I find it interesting that you'd think of Bowser Jr. as a Bowser clone. The fact that he's small and has a paintbrush and everything would far separate him from his daddy. It's actually quite disturbing to think of him as Bowser's son actually I mean...no-one knows who his mummy is...Peach? >.> Kamek? <.<

Hilary Clinton?

Sorry, that was a bad joke. I am in no way implying that the woman is a cold blooded reptilian monster.

 

[Vali]

I bet it was that ***** Daisy. Would actually give an iota of depth to her character's story too...although not one many would want.

 

[Neiteio]

Why "Imp Midna" is the way to go...

I love your predictions, Wiseguy, even if my own list would be a bit different. However, one point I strongly disagree with is your prediction that they would pick Midna's Twili form over her imp form. First, let's examine a gallery of imp pics:

While I appreciate Midna’s slender, exotic Twili form, and the touching coda she provided to one of my favorite games, there’s no denying that imp Midna has a number of factors in her favor:

• Over 99% of her screen time in TP was spent in imp form. Players came to love her as a lil’ goblin, not her last-minute appearance as something “human.” When you hear Aonuma’s team raving about their love for Midna, do you think they’re referring to her true form, or imp form? Nintendo would want to promote the latter. Also, Twili Midna has little meaning to gamers, while imp Midna was the emotional thrust of TP’s story, not to mention an important game device as your constant companion. Which do you think is more likely to be remembered five years down the road: imp Midna, or Twili?
  
• Her imp design is ICONIC. Between Samus, Zamus, and the possible inclusion of Krystal, you’d have two to three sexpot femme fatales. Midna’s imp form – asymmetrical and child-like, with a helmet, snaggletooth, and "hand-hair" – makes her unique, and brings DIVERSITY to the table. There’s nothing else in Smash quite like imp Midna, let alone Zelda games.
  
• While I love your idea of Twili Midna as a dark-infused Zelda clone, imp Midna has more move-set potential. She could grapple foes with her “hand-hair,” pummeling them, throwing them, and slamming them into the ground, as she did unto Ganon in TP. She could generate her energy field, ensnaring foes in magic. She could dissolve into fragmented shadow and warp around the arena. Better yet, she could warp foes around the arena. And for her Final Smash, she could unleash the multi-armed monstrosity of the Fused Shadow. How cool is that?
  
• The Twili form is a SPOILER; the imp form is not. While one may argue that Sheik is a spoiler, she was from a last-gen game. TP is relatively new by comparison.

I will concede that stranger things have happened, though. For obscure, seldom-seen alternate forms to well-known characters, look no further than Zamus. If Sakurai wants to sex up Brawl and add another character without spending much time, then I could see him cloning Zelda as you suggested. Still, I think to omit imp Midna would be a missed opportunity for a truly unique character.

Either way, when it comes to Zelda characters whose names aren’t Zelda or Ganondorf, I think Midna has the highest chance of making the cut, on par with a cel-shaded rendition of Young Link. She is, after all, the titular “Twilight Princess,” and it’s clear as day that Nintendo loves her as much as we Zelda fans do. On another note, don’t count Zant out. Everything about him suits Brawl, from his short name – can’t you just picture ZANT on a select screen? – to his unique design and slasher/shooter tactics. He was TP’s villain for all but the final act, and is to Midna as Ganondorf is to Zelda. I’m not holding my breath, and I won’t be disappointed if he doesn’t make it, but he might have a chance…

Other notes:

If we see Wind Waker Link, perhaps he’ll have unique moves like the Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, Skull Hammer, and Hurricane Spin? That would more than validate his inclusion in the game.

Commander Kahn… while I share your unbridled enthusiasm for EBA, you must remember that EBA is, in essence, Ouendan, and therein lays the problem: Japan has Ouendan and America has EBA, and you can’t pick a character from one without representing the other. Sakurai has said he’s making Brawl with a global audience in mind, so it wouldn’t make sense to include a character from a game that was built specifically with a target language in mind.

HOWEVER, they could include one of the Japanese cheerleaders as a clone or skin. Then you’d have the best of both worlds, and everyone would be happy. The only problem then would be the “taint” of characters from a game based on licensed music, which detracts somewhat from the spirit of Smash Bros, a game that is 100% videogames. EBA characters are, by extension, linked to real-world songs like Madonna’s “Material Girl,” and while I suppose it wouldn’t be a big problem, it would seem a lil’ strange. Maybe it’s just me, though.

Great call on King Dedede. While I always thought he’d be a plausible character, I never realized how great his chances were until you pointed out that he topped Sakurai’s list, and that he was made by Sakurai. Also, he would be an easy Kirby clone. If they want to up the character count, he seems like a logical place to start.

- Neiteio

 

[Wiseguy]

I love your predictions, Wiseguy, even if my own list would be a bit different. However, one point I strongly disagree with is your prediction that they would pick Midna's Twili form over her imp form. First, let's examine a gallery of imp pics:

While I appreciate Midna’s slender, exotic Twili form, and the touching coda she provided to one of my favorite games, there’s no denying that imp Midna has a number of factors in her favor:

• Over 99% of her screen time in TP was spent in imp form. Players came to love her as a lil’ goblin, not her last-minute appearance as something “human.” When you hear Aonuma’s team raving about their love for Midna, do you think they’re referring to her true form, or imp form? Nintendo would want to promote the latter. Also, Twili Midna has little meaning to gamers, while imp Midna was the emotional thrust of TP’s story, not to mention an important game device as your constant companion. Which do you think is more likely to be remembered five years down the road: imp Midna, or Twili?
  
• Her imp design is ICONIC. Between Samus, Zamus, and the possible inclusion of Krystal, you’d have two to three sexpot femme fatales. Midna’s imp form – asymmetrical and child-like, with a helmet, snaggletooth, and "hand-hair" – makes her unique, and brings DIVERSITY to the table. There’s nothing else in Smash quite like imp Midna, let alone Zelda games.
  
• While I love your idea of Twili Midna as a dark-infused Zelda clone, imp Midna has more move-set potential. She could grapple foes with her “hand-hair,” pummeling them, throwing them, and slamming them into the ground, as she did unto Ganon in TP. She could generate her energy field, ensnaring foes in magic. She could dissolve into fragmented shadow and warp around the arena. Better yet, she could warp foes around the arena. And for her Final Smash, she could unleash the multi-armed monstrosity of the Fused Shadow. How cool is that?
  
• The Twili form is a SPOILER; the imp form is not. While one may argue that Sheik is a spoiler, she was from a last-gen game. TP is relatively new by comparison.

I will concede that stranger things have happened, though. For obscure, seldom-seen alternate forms to well-known characters, look no further than Zamus. If Sakurai wants to sex up Brawl and add another character without spending much time, then I could see him cloning Zelda as you suggested. Still, I think to omit imp Midna would be a missed opportunity for a truly unique character.

Either way, when it comes to Zelda characters whose names aren’t Zelda or Ganondorf, I think Midna has the highest chance of making the cut, on par with a cel-shaded rendition of Young Link. She is, after all, the titular “Twilight Princess,” and it’s clear as day that Nintendo loves her as much as we Zelda fans do. On another note, don’t count Zant out. Everything about him suits Brawl, from his short name – can’t you just picture ZANT on a select screen? – to his unique design and slasher/shooter tactics. He was TP’s villain for all but the final act, and is to Midna as Ganondorf is to Zelda. I’m not holding my breath, and I won’t be disappointed if he doesn’t make it, but he might have a chance…

First of all, welcome to Smashboards. Judging by your first post, your well reasoned arguments will be a welcome addition to the Smashboards community.

I could definitely see Imp Midna with a unique moveset being a worthy addition in the Brawl roster. Everything you said about Imp Minda being more prominent in the game and a more iconic character is absolutely true. My prediction that her Twili form will be included as a Zelda clone was meant to demonstrate how the final roster could include more characters if a handful of clones were included - and as clones go, Twili Midna would be among the more interesting. Midna is certainly one of the most worthy Zelda characters to be included in Brawl, so I'm be happy as long as she is included in either form.

However, I have to disagree that the fact that she is a "spoiler " will prevent Twili Midna from being included. She is depicted on the game manual in concept art and I don't see her as any more a spoiler than Zelda/Sheik in Melee or TP Ganondorf in Brawl. By the time Brawl is released, it will likely have been a full year (if not more) since Twilight Princess is released on Wii and Gamecube, so I think the chances of spoiling the ending are minimal. Besides, there are plenty of other reasons to play Twilight Princess.

Other notes:

If we see Wind Waker Link, perhaps he’ll have unique moves like the Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, Skull Hammer, and Hurricane Spin? That would more than validate his inclusion in the game.

Great ideas, but I'm not so sure about the Deku leaf. That seems better suited to be an item, but that's just my inclination.

Commander Kahn… while I share your unbridled enthusiasm for EBA, you must remember that EBA is, in essence, Ouendan, and therein lays the problem: Japan has Ouendan and America has EBA, and you can’t pick a character from one without representing the other. Sakurai has said he’s making Brawl with a global audience in mind, so it wouldn’t make sense to include a character from a game that was built specifically with a target language in mind.

HOWEVER, they could include one of the Japanese cheerleaders as a clone or skin. Then you’d have the best of both worlds, and everyone would be happy. The only problem then would be the “taint” of characters from a game based on licensed music, which detracts somewhat from the spirit of Smash Bros, a game that is 100% videogames. EBA characters are, by extension, linked to real-world songs like Madonna’s “Material Girl,” and while I suppose it wouldn’t be a big problem, it would seem a lil’ strange. Maybe it’s just me, though.

I was wondering who would be the first to bring up Ouebdan and poke a hole in my logic.

Yeah, including a character from both series would make more sense (I may have to rethink my roster...) but if only one can make the cut, Kahn is the better choice because (as I learned on the Ouebdan 2 preview on the most recent 1up Show at 1up.com) EBA is fairly popular in Japan as many retailers have begun importing copies.

As for the taint of being linked to real world songs, I personnally have no problem with it, though others might feel differently.

Great call on King Dedede. While I always thought he’d be a plausible character, I never realized how great his chances were until you pointed out that he topped Sakurai’s list, and that he was made by Sakurai. Also, he would be an easy Kirby clone. If they want to up the character count, he seems like a logical place to start.

- Neiteio

Yeah, Dedede really does stand an excellent chance. I would be genuinely shocked if he didn't make the cut.

 

[Vali]

In regards to the Ouendan/EBA thing I don't think it'll be a problem, since both games are very popular imports due to the successes of their counter-parts. Besides it'd be unfair to include more Japan-only characters such as Marth which only Japan have gotten the games for but less unfair to the Japanese audience to include a game which has been released all over America and can be played in Europe even if you have to go around importing it because the stupid god**** idiots still havent released it over here >.>;;. Seriously. Europe gets the shaft over and over and over and over. AND OVER. EBA is much more a world-wide appeal game since Ouendan is so Japanese it's silly. That said there's still many fans of both games world-wide and a costume hommage couldn't go amiss. Japanese gamers could get Ouendan x3 and EBA x1 and the other way around for the rest of the world. That is, assuming Europe and Australia ever get Smash Bros. which I'm starting to doubt.

Real world tie-ins are a pretty bleh point to bring up, especially in a music game. I mean, that's the whole point of it. If it wasn't tapping along to some of your favourite pop music hits from the 80's + 90's then it probably wouldn't have been as fun. Still very fun, but nevertheless original scores would have been less enjoyable. Videogames have always been full of real-world philosophical questions and obscure references to events or particularly things in the world, especially games with a sense of humour in the latter case (such as Pikmin 2). I think that is more out of place than songs in a music game but I wouldn't say that the appearance of Duracell batteries in Pikmin 2 would hurt Olimar's chances in any way.