Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Metrofan]

Just because we can't buy his games you say he's unimportant? He was the one who started it all, and he was even popular enough to make a second starring appearence.

You want to represent FE as a whole and yet you suggest two characters from the same game? One of them isn't even a Lord. Why is the Black Knight more deserving than Marth?

If you take away Marth you take away the style of the elegant swordsman that is so unique in melee. Ike will never be able to replace Marth because he'll have a much different playstyle. It's not about having a sword, it's about the sword flowing from one move to the next in a sort of dance. The elegant swordsman uses the sword as an extention of his arm, and uses a thin, light, sword. Ike uses a rather large sword that is bordering on being a broadsword. He just wouldn't be able to fill Marth's role.

Now about their appearence. The Black Knight has a cape and you don't mind him. Ike's cape is red and Marth's cape is blue, see the difference. Ike's sword is wide and heavy, Marth's sword is long and thin. Ike's hair is spikey and slicked back while Marth's is soft and tilted to his right side. Ike's face is rough and pointed while Marth's face is more like a child's. Ike wears leather armor while Marth wears silk and a chestplate.

Thats is completely true I agree, even though I am a Roy fan, no one from the FE series will replace Marth's elegant swordplay...Unless they make a clone of him instead which will suck.

 

[YosterDragon]

Hello everyone! Thought I'd defy convention and start off my smashboards career with something a little meatier than usual for a post from a n00b...my ideas for Wiseguy's 40 character challenge! I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and decided that I needed to get in on the action. Hope you all don't mind a forum newbie butting his way into the conversation. Well, I'd best get to it then.

Beside each character's name is a likelyhood of their return:
Confirmed
Excellent
Good
Fair
Poor


Super Mario
-----------
1. Mario - Confirmed
Everyone's favorite plumber from Brooklyn, he's confirmed and ready for action.

2. Luigi - Excellent
Mario's steadfast bro and one of the original 12, he's all but guaranteed to return.

3. Princess Peach - Excellent
With more recent games breaking Peach out of her normal damsel in distress role, she's due to return to Brawl ready to lay the smackdown again.

4. Bowser - Excellent
Ah, poor Bowser. He never seems to succeed with his stunningly similar sinister schemes (that's alliteration kids!), but perhaps he'll get some revenge when he most likely returns for Brawl--hopefully with some buffs to boot.

5. Bowser Jr. - Fair
As much as I personally dislike this little guy for singlehandedly usurping the Koopa Kids, I must admit his potential for being included is high and his moveset could be quite unique given his role in Sunshine.


The Legend of Zelda
-------------------

6. Link (Twilight Princess) - Confirmed
Confirmed and looking good, TP Link updates the classic OoT Link we all know and love from the previous SSB games.

7. Link (Wind Waker) - Excellent
This seems to be the best way to go as a replacement for Young Link in my book, as I am in the minority who absolutely loved WW's artistic style. Distinguishing graphics aside, WW Link had a slew of new items not seen in other LoZ games that could be used to further Luigify his moveset.

8. Princess Zelda - Excellent
Ah, here seems to be the hot button...OoT Zelda/Sheik, or TP Zelda? Seems to me that TP Zelda could combine some traits of OoT Zelda/Sheik from Melee: keep some similar magic moves (maybe graphically altering the 3 OoT spells to the light magic from TP), while adding some agile new moves with her rapier to complement her "previous life" (I don't mean that literally, I know my Zelda games, please put down the torches and pitchforks!) as Sheik. But what do I know, I'm sure not Sakurai.

9. Gannondorf - Excellent
Chances are the big guy is coming back in TP form, and hopefully with a moveset to call his own. Not that the bearer of the Triforce of Power minded being a clone or anything...

10. Midna w/Wolf Link - Good
Ferro De Lupe's fantastic moveset idea pushed me in this direction. Seems to me this would be a great way to add a recent LoZ character to the Brawl roster as well as provide a unique gameplay experience.


Pokémon
-------

11. Pikachu - Confirmed
The electric rat returneth. 'Nuff said.

12. Jigglypuff - Excellent
Sigh...despite a lack of importance to the series, Jigglypuff is most likely coming back, thanks to original 12 status.

13. Mewtwo - Good
Poor Mewtwo, he had such great potential for Melee, but the Nerf bat must've caught him early on. Here's hoping he returns with some of the suckage removed.

14. Red - Poor
What?!?!? You didn't pick a Pokémon as the new 4th rep for the series? You chose the generic trainer from Pokémon Red and Blue? Insanity...but perhaps not! Imagine a moveset centered around the six Pokémon a trainer is allowed to carry. Ground A attacks could be carried out by a fighting type Pokémon (mayhap the oft suggested Lucario) who is by your side by default. Air A attacks plus double jump and B up recovery could instantly call out a flying type (let's say Charizard, an original starter and fairly popular Pokémon) to your aid. The B special moves could be any variety of attacks based around a variety of Pokémon techniques. My point is, it seems a really creative moveset could be made by Sakurai and the Brawl team.


Donkey Kong
-----------

15. Donkey Kong - Excellent
DK Jr. all grown up, Donkey Kong is coming back again, ready to show old Cranky Kong that he's definitely the real deal. That, and eat bananas.

16. Diddy Kong - Good
Diddy needs a little respect. Sure, he started as DK's sidekick, but he ended up saving the big lug eventually. He's helped whup K. Rool's posterior plenty of times, and even stopped a giant alien pig from trashing the planet! And even though DK64 was a bit of a snore, we can be happy it existed since it'll diversify Diddy's moveset. Hmm, a monkey with a jetpack, pistols and a guitar...what's not to love?

17. King K. Rool - Fair
Call him a cheap Bowser knockoff all you want, but K. Rool just may show his ugly mug to prove you wrong when Brawl arrives. I could see some interesting moves based on the costumes he's worn over the years: Kaptain K. Rool (pirate), Baron K. Roolentstein (mad scientist) and King Krusha K. Rool (boxer).


Starfox
-------

18. Fox McCloud - Confirmed
Like it or not, it's the Command version of Fox that's returning. We'll have to wait and see what changes are in store for the furry anthropomorphic Arwing pilot friend.

19. Krystal - Excellent
Dinosaur Planet, Rareware's last Nintendo hurrah, looked fantastic on its own, but then the Star Fox branding came along. But sordid stories aside, I suppose we'll take that as a good thing since Krystal is eligible for Brawl because of it. Her staff is what distinguishes her, and should provide for an interesting moveset. Oh, and not that I've seen it brought up yet, but I'd vote that her appearance be her original SFA appearance.

20. Wolf O'Donnell - Good
Every hero's gotta have their rival, and Fox is no exception. In the interest of adding villains to the Brawl roster, I've included fan favorite Wolf over Falco. Not knocking Falco, as he's a great charatcter in the Starfox world, but there are only so many spaces in the Brawl roster. I'd like to see the Brawl team give Wolf the same treatment Fox was originally given, i.e. "Let's make up some cool moves for him since he's not out of the cockpit much!" However, in order to play by Wiseguy's rules, we'll call Wolf a clone for now.


Kirby
-----

21. Kirby - Confirmed
The little placeholder sprite that could, Kirby returns yet again. Here's hoping he finds himself somewhere between his SSB pwnage and Melee's nerfed...nerfness...yeah. Moving on!

22. Metaknight - Confirmed
Holy cow, I've always wanted this one but wouldn't have bet on it happpening way back when. Thank you Sakurai for proving me wrong and adding a fantastic Kirby character! We've only glimpsed at what this whirling dervish of an anti-Kirby has in store for Brawl...

23. King Dedede - Excellent
Finally, some hammer based combat that doesn't involve two ****** Eskimoes tethered together! Given his penguiny villainous popularity (and being a Sakurai creation), don't be surprised if you get hit upside the head by a mallet-weilding penguin when Brawl finally arrives.


Metroid
-------

24. Samus/Zamus - Double Confirmed
Well, as cool as Zero Suit Samus's addition to the game is, it pains me that Sakurai has said she's a transformation instead of a wholly separate character. Oh well, at least Nintendo's favorite power suit weilding femme fatale is returning for Brawl.

25. Ridley - Excellent
Ridley's long overdue for a SSB appearance, and I think Brawl is when he'll finally get to rear his ugly head. Super intelligent and a space pirate dragon (does it get any better?), Ridley is just full of potential...for PAIN!

26. Dark Samus - Fair
First a metroid becomes part Samus, then Samus becomes part metroid. Ah, the circle of life. In any case, the Metroid series certainly deserves more reps despite having a really small pool of characters to pick from. DS, as stated amply in posts before this, is very much different from Samus herself, but I wouldn't be surprised if DS was a clone as opposed to having an original moveset.


F-Zero
------

27. Captain Falcon - Excellent
The seemingly sole representation of his series, Falcon is most almost certainly returning for Brawl.

28. Samurai Goroh - Fair
I've always been a fan of Goroh for some inexplicable reason, so it's only natural I include him in my predictive Brawl roster. Plus, more villains are always a good thing. I could see a moveset that combines his brute strength with his katana skills...perhaps a clone of Falcon but with some sword attacks peppered in for Luigification?


Fire Emblem
-----------

29. Ike - Good
Given what I understand to be his international popularity and his similarity to Marth, I'll side with the Ike folks here and nix Marth for Ike. But to be fair, I've yet to play a Fire Emblem game, so I'm fairly uninformed on this topic. It really seems to be an classic game vs. recent release debate, and I don't think I'm qualified to rightly choose between Marth and Ike, but I did anyhow.

30. Micaiah - Poor
I've yet to see this combination, so I figured why not? Given Melee's treatment of FE characters (Marth being the fan favorite and Roy being the advertisement for an upcoming game), I decided to follow suit and choose Micaiah as my second FE character, plugging the upcoming Wii FE (Ike being the international fan favorite...or at least known outside of Japan, anyhow). Plus, she's not another sword user, which seems to be a rather popular trend for Brawl characters...


Earthbound
----------

31. Ness - Excellent
Ness, being North America's only representative of the crazy cult hit Mother series and a member of the original 12, is almost guaranteed to make a return.


Yoshi
-----

32. Yoshi - Excellent
Bet you didn't see that one coming, eh? Yoshi's certainly coming back, given his status as a staple Mario-related character, his inclusion in the original 12, and the glimpses we've caught of a Yoshi's Island stage. For the record, YI>YS by an infinite degree. It's about time there was a YI stage instead of a YS one.


Wario
-----

33. Wario - Confirmed
It's about bloody time! Wario's here and ready to rock in his Wario Ware gear. We just need to see what his moveset is like outside of his, erm, unique Wario Waft.


Misc. Nintendo
--------------

34. Pit - Confirmed
Another confirmed newcomer, the star of Kid Icarus and its little known Game Boy sequel has come out of the gates strong and looking good--props to Sakurai's team for such a cool looking reimagining. Along with Metaknight, Pit seems to be another fast and floaty newcomer.

35. Captain Olimar - Good
This idea had never even crossed my mind until reading the forums here, and you know what? It's grown on me. Sure, Pikmin wasn't a blockbuster franchise, but what would be more humiliating than loosing to a bunch of little sentient flowers led by a tiny commanding spaceman? Not much, I'll bet. Well, except for losing to...

36. Tom Nook - Fair
You'll know you're having a bad day when a tanuki slumlord throws furniture at you and breaks your legs with a golden shovel. And on top of that you'll still owe him thousands of bells on your mortgage. I won't say his odds of getting into Brawl are great, but he may be able to "persuade" his way in. With violence.

37. Balloon Fighter - Good
I've yet to try and wrap my head around a moveset for this guy, yet I'm convinced he's fairly likely to get in. The rumor of him being pulled from Melee, plus Bowserlick's awesome idea that he be restyled as a WWI pilot (complete with pulled up goggles and scarf) have convinced me he deserves a spot on my (most likely flawed) roster.

38. Jill - Poor
Ah, here's where the curve balls come. Made by Gamefreak and owned by Nintendo, Drill Dozer was a fantastic GBA puzzle platformer that was just oozing with personality, particularly the spunky heroine Jill. I'll admit her chances are pretty slim to nil, but I would consider it a surprise on the level of the Ice Climbers or Mr. Game and Watch. Besides, it's my list and I get to pick.

39. Ray Mk II - Poor
One last oddball Nintendo character that I don't think has been suggested yet in this thread. The Ray model Custom Robos are the flagship models for the series, with Mk II being one of the most recognizable thanks to his trophy in Melee. Again, this character has a very low likelyhood of getting in, but could potentially have a very unique moveset thanks to the huge number of weapons from the Custom Robo series that could be used. Here's hoping we see Ray get to use the dragon gun.


Third Party
-----------

40. Solid Snake - Confirmed
I can actually recollect my confusion upon hearing the MGS communicator ring after the watching the Brawl trailer "finish" for the first time. Snake is the last character anybody would have guessed as having an appearance in a Smash Bros. game, and yet here he is, practically fitting right in. All I need to know to be happy is how his cardboard box comes into play...

41. Sonic the Hedgehog - Excellent
If you didn't see this one coming you probably had your eyes closed. Sega, Nintendo...we need the definitive answer to the age old Mario vs. Sonic rivalry, and I don't think a trip to the Olympics is gonna cut it.

42. Geno - Good
Let's hope a Geno reappearance happens. That way, when approximately 1.2 million SMRPG fanboys' heads explode and bajillions of copies of Brawl are sold, Square Enix and Nintendo will realize it's about time to make an official SMRPG sequel. Not that the M&L and Paper Mario games weren't fantastic (they most certainly were), but still. Besides, I'd love to see Geno's Final Smash be his Geno Flash...who wouldn't want to turn into a supernova shooting cannon?


Runners Up
----------
Just to mention it, I've heard some other fantastic suggestions that didn't quite make my cut, but are worth repeating yet again: Skull Kid, Commander Kahn, Mach Rider, Mii, Fawful, Megaman, Simon Belmont...the list goes on. Oh, and curse you Microsoft for owning the rights to Banjo-Kazooie. They could've been great in the SSB series.


And that's it. Woo! My 40 character challenge is complete with 39 original characters and 3 clones. Thought I'd throw a few curves in there just to be a bit different; odds are we'll all be very surprised once the final roster is revealed. I guess I'm content seeing Doc, Pichu, Falco, Roy, IC and G&W retire for new additions to the roster.

Hope I've provided a good read. Thanks!

 

[Smady]

Sorry about the long quotes SD. Don't feel obligated to read them, but I felt that Jaohnknight1 and Mendez had some points worth responding to.

I know, I predicted a lot of walls of text after taking a break from these boards for a few days. I only visit the Character Discussion part of the Smash Boards, imagine if I visited other places.

As for Dedede, I still think a cloned moveset would work for him. As you mentioned, his sucking and jumping abilities are already pretty similar and his hammer could work just like Kirby's - as a B attack and a mid air attack.

Wait, not really. I didn't say his hammer could work like a B attack. That is his main weapon, and he always uses it. He never pounds with his hands, and he is never seen without the hammer. Most of his moves will inevitably involve the hammer, which is a big flaw in the Kirby-clone idea. The sucking ability is also pretty different. He shoots his opponents out, and can't keep them swallowed for more than a few moments. He also "floats" more than he "flies", another massive difference.

All his other attacks could simply be Luigified variations of Kirby's. Personally, I could see it working either way, but I'm leaning towards the clone possibility because it would free up valuable development time..

Valuable development time? On what? He's one of the popular choices of 'Brawl, worldwide, so development time saved elsewhere should be spent on him.

It'd also be very hard for him to be related to Kirby except in the flying and the sucking (partially). Everything else is different. Hammer As? Kirby pounds with his playdo arms. Kirby's Bs? The hammer is too important to have one B direction, so the Bs are all useless for Dedede except the sucking, which is very different from Kirby's: slower to start but faster and harder to stop mid-air because of his heaviness. Despite the little similarities, Kirby and Dedede really are as diverse as they come, with none in common that isn't diluted amongst tonnes of opposition between the two.

In my opinion, if they try to clone as many people as they can for their respective villain it'll be the biggest disappointment possible, and thinking like yours is exactly the problem. Development time should be spent on characters and making them as respectable as possible.

 

[Devastlian]

But making a new model and animations defeats the purpose completely. A clone is a character made from retexturing and resizing another character and keeping a majority of their animations. Making a whole new model just to give him similar animations and hitboxes (similar to what they did with Luigi) wouldn't cut the development time by much...it might cut off potentially an hour of planning but it'd still require an effort to animate King Dedede to mimic what Kirby does. They could've potentially done the same with Meta Knight who has an identical body; just do what you said with King Dedede and have him use his signature weapon for his forward B and up B.

All of the characters I mentioned share some of the same abilities with characters from their franchises. Krystal is never seen fighting with her staff but we can control her with some guns in the SFA multiplayer. So just give her a blaster with some quirky effect and make her another clone of Fox without sacrificing much of anything.

Same with Bowser Jr. and his paint brush; he never uses it when he isn't Shadow Mario and only uses it to make goo (and how different can a staff moveset be from paintbrush moveset?) He only fights as himself in NSMB (where he mimics Bowser) and Partners in Time where he fights on Bowsers back and uses one or two moves by himself.

Lucario and Deoxys can do most of the moves Mewtwo can and can do similar moves to replace the ones they can't. (However...Lucario can't move the same...so...forget that one.)

Diddy could very well have the same moves Donkey Kong has...Donkey Kong only uses one move he used in his games...the rest are generic hand to hand type moves that anyone could use, really.

Also, what Smash Daddy said, again...

 

[Dark Sonic]

I've yet to see this combination, so I figured why not? Given Melee's treatment of FE characters (Marth being the fan favorite and Roy being the advertisement for an upcoming game), I decided to follow suit and choose Micaiah as my second FE character, plugging the upcoming Wii FE (Ike being the international fan favorite...or at least known outside of Japan, anyhow). Plus, she's not another sword user, which seems to be a rather popular trend for Brawl characters...

Marth was NOT the fan favorite. Sigurd was the fan favorite, but he was ditched at the last minute to make room for Roy to market the release of FE 6. Yes Marth was popular, but he was included in melee to show the roots of Fire Emblem. Besides, Marth is still more popular than Ike worldwide. Even though some of his fans aren't FE fans, they're still fans you would be dissapointing if you take him out. And since when is 4 sword users a trend. I can count all the sword users on one hand. Marth, Ike, TP Link, WW Link (if he's in it). They're getting rid of Roy, so give Ike that spot. Ike should represent the most recent game because Micaiah isn't really that important in that game anyway (She leads your army for only 1/4 of the game). BTW if you want to be technical Ike is only the star in 1.5 games because he's not the main lord all the way through in GoD. Marth still gets two, because even though FE3 included a remake of FE1 it also had the sequal included so it was 2 full games in one pack (kinda like playing Sonic 3 with the Sonic and Knuckles pack attached)

Marth and Roy were both equally the face of FE before Fire GBA was realeased internationally - but they could have literally put anyone in the series in their place, as far as western gamers were concerned. Now, FE fans around the world think of characters like Ike and Ephriam when they think of FE. As the lord in the only FE game popular world wide, Ike is best suited to be the new FE rep

No, Marth was recognized as the first FE lord, while Roy was the most recent. The GBA games are dispised in Japan, remember. I myself hated FE 8 The Sacred Stones because the entire game was too easy. I'm still ticked about nintendo taking out maniac mode for PoR. Very few people even like Ephriam and they still think of Marth once you mention FE (I've actually asked some random people what Fire Emblem was and they said "that's Marth's game right?") Even non FE fans know who Marth is, but when you say Ike they have no clue.
Yes Ike is suited to be the NEW FE rep, but Marth is suited to be the OLD FE rep.

 

[Wiseguy]

Just because we can't buy his games you say he's unimportant? He was the one who started it all, and he was even popular enough to make a second starring appearence.

He is important to the series, I just don't consider him as important now that the series has a global fanbase as opposed to one centered in Japan. With only two ot three FE characters making it in I think that all FE reps should come from games that are popular among FE fans everywhere - not just Japan.

You want to represent FE as a whole and yet you suggest two characters from the same game? One of them isn't even a Lord. Why is the Black Knight more deserving than Marth?

With only a couple of roster slots, there is no possible way to represent all the FE games. So I deicided to represent the only game in the entire eries that is loved by FE fans everywhere.

In Japan (where the series was born) people love Marth and Sigurd's games the most - even though hardly anyone outside japan has played them. Outside Japan (where the majority of FE games are sold) Fire Emblem GBA is the fan favorite - in spite of the fact that Japanese gamers depise both GBA games. Path of Radiance is the only game that is loved in both japan and everywhere else. And since it is also the game with the most popular lord as well as the most recently released game in the series, I think having its characters represent the entire series is fair.

My inclusion of the BK was based on the assumption that the FE series would get one original character and one clone. As clones go, BK is a far better candidate for Ike's clone than Marth (I see him as an ultra heavy and powerful Ike copy with a teloport Up-B) and his appearance and pressence contrast Ike's nicely.

If you take away Marth you take away the style of the elegant swordsman that is so unique in melee. Ike will never be able to replace Marth because he'll have a much different playstyle. It's not about having a sword, it's about the sword flowing from one move to the next in a sort of dance. The elegant swordsman uses the sword as an extention of his arm, and uses a thin, light, sword. Ike uses a rather large sword that is bordering on being a broadsword. He just wouldn't be able to fill Marth's role.

While the two are certainly different enough that they couldn't be clones, I suspect they could still make Ike's moveset similar enough to Marth's that fans won't be too upset. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Marth's sword is much smaller than Ike's from PoR - though his GoD sword is pretty huge.

Now about their appearence. The Black Knight has a cape and you don't mind him. Ike's cape is red and Marth's cape is blue, see the difference. Ike's sword is wide and heavy, Marth's sword is long and thin. Ike's hair is spikey and slicked back while Marth's is soft and tilted to his right side. Ike's face is rough and pointed while Marth's face is more like a child's. Ike wears leather armor while Marth wears silk and a chestplate.

Yes, but those slight differences in colour and haircuts do exist - but even if they went with the GoD Ike they would still be very similar in appearance in my view. And since Ike's role in PoR was greater, I highly suspect that's the version they will go with.

Hello everyone! Thought I'd defy convention and start off my smashboards career with something a little meatier than usual for a post from a n00b...my ideas for Wiseguy's 40 character challenge! I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and decided that I needed to get in on the action. Hope you all don't mind a forum newbie butting his way into the conversation. Well, I'd best get to it then.

Beside each character's name is a likelyhood of their return:
Confirmed
Excellent
Good
Fair
Poor


Super Mario
-----------
1. Mario - Confirmed
Everyone's favorite plumber from Brooklyn, he's confirmed and ready for action.

2. Luigi - Excellent
Mario's steadfast bro and one of the original 12, he's all but guaranteed to return.

3. Princess Peach - Excellent
With more recent games breaking Peach out of her normal damsel in distress role, she's due to return to Brawl ready to lay the smackdown again.

4. Bowser - Excellent
Ah, poor Bowser. He never seems to succeed with his stunningly similar sinister schemes (that's alliteration kids!), but perhaps he'll get some revenge when he most likely returns for Brawl--hopefully with some buffs to boot.

5. Bowser Jr. - Fair
As much as I personally dislike this little guy for singlehandedly usurping the Koopa Kids, I must admit his potential for being included is high and his moveset could be quite unique given his role in Sunshine.


The Legend of Zelda
-------------------

6. Link (Twilight Princess) - Confirmed
Confirmed and looking good, TP Link updates the classic OoT Link we all know and love from the previous SSB games.

7. Link (Wind Waker) - Excellent
This seems to be the best way to go as a replacement for Young Link in my book, as I am in the minority who absolutely loved WW's artistic style. Distinguishing graphics aside, WW Link had a slew of new items not seen in other LoZ games that could be used to further Luigify his moveset.

8. Princess Zelda - Excellent
Ah, here seems to be the hot button...OoT Zelda/Sheik, or TP Zelda? Seems to me that TP Zelda could combine some traits of OoT Zelda/Sheik from Melee: keep some similar magic moves (maybe graphically altering the 3 OoT spells to the light magic from TP), while adding some agile new moves with her rapier to complement her "previous life" (I don't mean that literally, I know my Zelda games, please put down the torches and pitchforks!) as Sheik. But what do I know, I'm sure not Sakurai.

9. Gannondorf - Excellent
Chances are the big guy is coming back in TP form, and hopefully with a moveset to call his own. Not that the bearer of the Triforce of Power minded being a clone or anything...

10. Midna w/Wolf Link - Good
Ferro De Lupe's fantastic moveset idea pushed me in this direction. Seems to me this would be a great way to add a recent LoZ character to the Brawl roster as well as provide a unique gameplay experience.


Pokémon
-------

11. Pikachu - Confirmed
The electric rat returneth. 'Nuff said.

12. Jigglypuff - Excellent
Sigh...despite a lack of importance to the series, Jigglypuff is most likely coming back, thanks to original 12 status.

13. Mewtwo - Good
Poor Mewtwo, he had such great potential for Melee, but the Nerf bat must've caught him early on. Here's hoping he returns with some of the suckage removed.

14. Red - Poor
What?!?!? You didn't pick a Pokémon as the new 4th rep for the series? You chose the generic trainer from Pokémon Red and Blue? Insanity...but perhaps not! Imagine a moveset centered around the six Pokémon a trainer is allowed to carry. Ground A attacks could be carried out by a fighting type Pokémon (mayhap the oft suggested Lucario) who is by your side by default. Air A attacks plus double jump and B up recovery could instantly call out a flying type (let's say Charizard, an original starter and fairly popular Pokémon) to your aid. The B special moves could be any variety of attacks based around a variety of Pokémon techniques. My point is, it seems a really creative moveset could be made by Sakurai and the Brawl team.


Donkey Kong
-----------

15. Donkey Kong - Excellent
DK Jr. all grown up, Donkey Kong is coming back again, ready to show old Cranky Kong that he's definitely the real deal. That, and eat bananas.

16. Diddy Kong - Good
Diddy needs a little respect. Sure, he started as DK's sidekick, but he ended up saving the big lug eventually. He's helped whup K. Rool's posterior plenty of times, and even stopped a giant alien pig from trashing the planet! And even though DK64 was a bit of a snore, we can be happy it existed since it'll diversify Diddy's moveset. Hmm, a monkey with a jetpack, pistols and a guitar...what's not to love?

17. King K. Rool - Fair
Call him a cheap Bowser knockoff all you want, but K. Rool just may show his ugly mug to prove you wrong when Brawl arrives. I could see some interesting moves based on the costumes he's worn over the years: Kaptain K. Rool (pirate), Baron K. Roolentstein (mad scientist) and King Krusha K. Rool (boxer).


Starfox
-------

18. Fox McCloud - Confirmed
Like it or not, it's the Command version of Fox that's returning. We'll have to wait and see what changes are in store for the furry anthropomorphic Arwing pilot friend.

19. Krystal - Excellent
Dinosaur Planet, Rareware's last Nintendo hurrah, looked fantastic on its own, but then the Star Fox branding came along. But sordid stories aside, I suppose we'll take that as a good thing since Krystal is eligible for Brawl because of it. Her staff is what distinguishes her, and should provide for an interesting moveset. Oh, and not that I've seen it brought up yet, but I'd vote that her appearance be her original SFA appearance.

20. Wolf O'Donnell - Good
Every hero's gotta have their rival, and Fox is no exception. In the interest of adding villains to the Brawl roster, I've included fan favorite Wolf over Falco. Not knocking Falco, as he's a great charatcter in the Starfox world, but there are only so many spaces in the Brawl roster. I'd like to see the Brawl team give Wolf the same treatment Fox was originally given, i.e. "Let's make up some cool moves for him since he's not out of the cockpit much!" However, in order to play by Wiseguy's rules, we'll call Wolf a clone for now.


Kirby
-----

21. Kirby - Confirmed
The little placeholder sprite that could, Kirby returns yet again. Here's hoping he finds himself somewhere between his SSB pwnage and Melee's nerfed...nerfness...yeah. Moving on!

22. Metaknight - Confirmed
Holy cow, I've always wanted this one but wouldn't have bet on it happpening way back when. Thank you Sakurai for proving me wrong and adding a fantastic Kirby character! We've only glimpsed at what this whirling dervish of an anti-Kirby has in store for Brawl...

23. King Dedede - Excellent
Finally, some hammer based combat that doesn't involve two ****** Eskimoes tethered together! Given his penguiny villainous popularity (and being a Sakurai creation), don't be surprised if you get hit upside the head by a mallet-weilding penguin when Brawl finally arrives.


Metroid
-------

24. Samus/Zamus - Double Confirmed
Well, as cool as Zero Suit Samus's addition to the game is, it pains me that Sakurai has said she's a transformation instead of a wholly separate character. Oh well, at least Nintendo's favorite power suit weilding femme fatale is returning for Brawl.

25. Ridley - Excellent
Ridley's long overdue for a SSB appearance, and I think Brawl is when he'll finally get to rear his ugly head. Super intelligent and a space pirate dragon (does it get any better?), Ridley is just full of potential...for PAIN!

26. Dark Samus - Fair
First a metroid becomes part Samus, then Samus becomes part metroid. Ah, the circle of life. In any case, the Metroid series certainly deserves more reps despite having a really small pool of characters to pick from. DS, as stated amply in posts before this, is very much different from Samus herself, but I wouldn't be surprised if DS was a clone as opposed to having an original moveset.


F-Zero
------

27. Captain Falcon - Excellent
The seemingly sole representation of his series, Falcon is most almost certainly returning for Brawl.

28. Samurai Goroh - Fair
I've always been a fan of Goroh for some inexplicable reason, so it's only natural I include him in my predictive Brawl roster. Plus, more villains are always a good thing. I could see a moveset that combines his brute strength with his katana skills...perhaps a clone of Falcon but with some sword attacks peppered in for Luigification?


Fire Emblem
-----------

29. Ike - Good
Given what I understand to be his international popularity and his similarity to Marth, I'll side with the Ike folks here and nix Marth for Ike. But to be fair, I've yet to play a Fire Emblem game, so I'm fairly uninformed on this topic. It really seems to be an classic game vs. recent release debate, and I don't think I'm qualified to rightly choose between Marth and Ike, but I did anyhow.

30. Micaiah - Poor
I've yet to see this combination, so I figured why not? Given Melee's treatment of FE characters (Marth being the fan favorite and Roy being the advertisement for an upcoming game), I decided to follow suit and choose Micaiah as my second FE character, plugging the upcoming Wii FE (Ike being the international fan favorite...or at least known outside of Japan, anyhow). Plus, she's not another sword user, which seems to be a rather popular trend for Brawl characters...


Earthbound
----------

31. Ness - Excellent
Ness, being North America's only representative of the crazy cult hit Mother series and a member of the original 12, is almost guaranteed to make a return.


Yoshi
-----

32. Yoshi - Excellent
Bet you didn't see that one coming, eh? Yoshi's certainly coming back, given his status as a staple Mario-related character, his inclusion in the original 12, and the glimpses we've caught of a Yoshi's Island stage. For the record, YI>YS by an infinite degree. It's about time there was a YI stage instead of a YS one.


Wario
-----

33. Wario - Confirmed
It's about bloody time! Wario's here and ready to rock in his Wario Ware gear. We just need to see what his moveset is like outside of his, erm, unique Wario Waft.


Misc. Nintendo
--------------

34. Pit - Confirmed
Another confirmed newcomer, the star of Kid Icarus and its little known Game Boy sequel has come out of the gates strong and looking good--props to Sakurai's team for such a cool looking reimagining. Along with Metaknight, Pit seems to be another fast and floaty newcomer.

35. Captain Olimar - Good
This idea had never even crossed my mind until reading the forums here, and you know what? It's grown on me. Sure, Pikmin wasn't a blockbuster franchise, but what would be more humiliating than loosing to a bunch of little sentient flowers led by a tiny commanding spaceman? Not much, I'll bet. Well, except for losing to...

36. Tom Nook - Fair
You'll know you're having a bad day when a tanuki slumlord throws furniture at you and breaks your legs with a golden shovel. And on top of that you'll still owe him thousands of bells on your mortgage. I won't say his odds of getting into Brawl are great, but he may be able to "persuade" his way in. With violence.

37. Balloon Fighter - Good
I've yet to try and wrap my head around a moveset for this guy, yet I'm convinced he's fairly likely to get in. The rumor of him being pulled from Melee, plus Bowserlick's awesome idea that he be restyled as a WWI pilot (complete with pulled up goggles and scarf) have convinced me he deserves a spot on my (most likely flawed) roster.

38. Jill - Poor
Ah, here's where the curve balls come. Made by Gamefreak and owned by Nintendo, Drill Dozer was a fantastic GBA puzzle platformer that was just oozing with personality, particularly the spunky heroine Jill. I'll admit her chances are pretty slim to nil, but I would consider it a surprise on the level of the Ice Climbers or Mr. Game and Watch. Besides, it's my list and I get to pick.

39. Ray Mk II - Poor
One last oddball Nintendo character that I don't think has been suggested yet in this thread. The Ray model Custom Robos are the flagship models for the series, with Mk II being one of the most recognizable thanks to his trophy in Melee. Again, this character has a very low likelyhood of getting in, but could potentially have a very unique moveset thanks to the huge number of weapons from the Custom Robo series that could be used. Here's hoping we see Ray get to use the dragon gun.


Third Party
-----------

40. Solid Snake - Confirmed
I can actually recollect my confusion upon hearing the MGS communicator ring after the watching the Brawl trailer "finish" for the first time. Snake is the last character anybody would have guessed as having an appearance in a Smash Bros. game, and yet here he is, practically fitting right in. All I need to know to be happy is how his cardboard box comes into play...

41. Sonic the Hedgehog - Excellent
If you didn't see this one coming you probably had your eyes closed. Sega, Nintendo...we need the definitive answer to the age old Mario vs. Sonic rivalry, and I don't think a trip to the Olympics is gonna cut it.

42. Geno - Good
Let's hope a Geno reappearance happens. That way, when approximately 1.2 million SMRPG fanboys' heads explode and bajillions of copies of Brawl are sold, Square Enix and Nintendo will realize it's about time to make an official SMRPG sequel. Not that the M&L and Paper Mario games weren't fantastic (they most certainly were), but still. Besides, I'd love to see Geno's Final Smash be his Geno Flash...who wouldn't want to turn into a supernova shooting cannon?


Runners Up
----------
Just to mention it, I've heard some other fantastic suggestions that didn't quite make my cut, but are worth repeating yet again: Skull Kid, Commander Kahn, Mach Rider, Mii, Fawful, Megaman, Simon Belmont...the list goes on. Oh, and curse you Microsoft for owning the rights to Banjo-Kazooie. They could've been great in the SSB series.


And that's it. Woo! My 40 character challenge is complete with 39 original characters and 3 clones. Thought I'd throw a few curves in there just to be a bit different; odds are we'll all be very surprised once the final roster is revealed. I guess I'm content seeing Doc, Pichu, Falco, Roy, IC and G&W retire for new additions to the roster.

Hope I've provided a good read. Thanks!

Welcome to Smash Boards, YosterDragon. That is one heck of a first post.

In addition to being a truly enjoyable read, your roster suggestions are some of the best I've heard. I suspect most of the Pokemon crowd would have a heart attack if Red made it in, but I for one wouldn't be bothered in the least.

Otherwise, you've put together an exceptional list with all the likely candidates and a few surprises like Jill and Ray Mk 01. Great reasoning behind all your choices as well.

One minor flaw (which is really my fault for not mentioning it in the rules...) is that Samus and Zamus actually count for two characters since they each have a unique moveset. However, since I'm confident that you can tweak your list to compensate for this, I'm giving your roster a rare 10/10. Excellent job, and once again, welcome to Smash Boards.

Wait, not really. I didn't say his hammer could work like a B attack. That is his main weapon, and he always uses it. He never pounds with his hands, and he is never seen without the hammer. Most of his moves will inevitably involve the hammer, which is a big flaw in the Kirby-clone idea. The sucking ability is also pretty different. He shoots his opponents out, and can't keep them swallowed for more than a few moments. He also "floats" more than he "flies", another massive difference.

Sorry. Poor sentence structure on my part. I meant to say that you said his sucking and flying are already similar to Kirbys and, I added, his hammer could work like Kirby's.

True, Dx3 never fights with his hands in his games (though he does wack you with his hammer and fall on you) but then, neither does Kirby!

As far as the inhaling part goes, Kirby and Dx3 behave similarly. It's just what they do afterwards that is different. Kirby swallows, Dx3 sipts them out. This change would be consistent with a Luigi style clone.

Valuable development time? On what? He's one of the popular choices of 'Brawl, worldwide, so development time saved elsewhere should be spent on him.

It'd also be very hard for him to be related to Kirby except in the flying and the sucking (partially). Everything else is different. Hammer As? Kirby pounds with his playdo arms. Kirby's Bs? The hammer is too important to have one B direction, so the Bs are all useless for Dedede except the sucking, which is very different from Kirby's: slower to start but faster and harder to stop mid-air because of his heaviness. Despite the little similarities, Kirby and Dedede really are as diverse as they come, with none in common that isn't diluted amongst tonnes of opposition between the two.

In my opinion, if they try to clone as many people as they can for their respective villain it'll be the biggest disappointment possible, and thinking like yours is exactly the problem. Development time should be spent on characters and making them as respectable as possible.

Sure there are differences in the two characters. However,t here are far fewer differences between them than, say, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

If the Smash team doesn't clone all the characters who are similar (which Kirby and Dx3 are) then there will be fewer characters who make it into the game - meaning that more original additions like Olimar may not make the cut.

You may hate clones, but the last time I checked characters like Doc and Falco were just as popular as any original character. Including clones is an easy way of inceasing the size of the roster and, when done correctly, theses clones are fun and worthy additions to the game.

But making a new model and animations defeats the purpose completely. A clone is a character made from retexturing and resizing another character and keeping a majority of their animations. Making a whole new model just to give him similar animations and hitboxes (similar to what they did with Luigi) wouldn't cut the development time by much...it might cut off potentially an hour of planning but it'd still require an effort to animate King Dedede to mimic what Kirby does. They could've potentially done the same with Meta Knight who has an identical body; just do what you said with King Dedede and have him use his signature weapon for his forward B and up B.

All of the characters I mentioned share some of the same abilities with characters from their franchises. Krystal is never seen fighting with her staff but we can control her with some guns in the SFA multiplayer. So just give her a blaster with some quirky effect and make her another clone of Fox without sacrificing much of anything.

Same with Bowser Jr. and his paint brush; he never uses it when he isn't Shadow Mario and only uses it to make goo (and how different can a staff moveset be from paintbrush moveset?) He only fights as himself in NSMB (where he mimics Bowser) and Partners in Time where he fights on Bowsers back and uses one or two moves by himself.

Lucario and Deoxys can do most of the moves Mewtwo can and can do similar moves to replace the ones they can't. (However...Lucario can't move the same...so...forget that one.)

Diddy could very well have the same moves Donkey Kong has...Donkey Kong only uses one move he used in his games...the rest are generic hand to hand type moves that anyone could use, really.

Also, what Smash Daddy said, again...

I'm not designer, so I'm just speculating, but I'm assuming that making a Luigi style clone with a different wire frame is less time consuming than a completely unique character and more time consuming than standard, Dr. Mario style clone.

As for those other characters you mentioned, I suppose the case could be made for making those characters clones as well. However, I guessing that Sakurai will consider their potential for an original moveset greater than Dx3's and give them unique movesets - but that's only my opinion.

Marth was NOT the fan favorite. Sigurd was the fan favorite, but he was ditched at the last minute to make room for Roy to market the release of FE 6. Yes Marth was popular, but he was included in melee to show the roots of Fire Emblem. Besides, Marth is still more popular than Ike worldwide. Even though some of his fans aren't FE fans, they're still fans you would be dissapointing if you take him out. And since when is 4 sword users a trend. I can count all the sword users on one hand. Marth, Ike, TP Link, WW Link (if he's in it). They're getting rid of Roy, so give Ike that spot. Ike should represent the most recent game because Micaiah isn't really that important in that game anyway (She leads your army for only 1/4 of the game). BTW if you want to be technical Ike is only the star in 1.5 games because he's not the main lord all the way through in GoD. Marth still gets two, because even though FE3 included a remake of FE1 it also had the sequal included so it was 2 full games in one pack (kinda like playing Sonic 3 with the Sonic and Knuckles pack attached).

IF Marth gets in as a representative of the FE series (which I still doubt) it will because of his role in the Fire Emblem series - not his popularity in Melee. Most of Marth's so called "fans" outside Japan don't care about Fire Emblem or Marth's role in the series - they only play as him because his moveset is one of the most cheap and overpowered in Melee. The sad truth is that most people will remember Marth, not as a Fire emblem lord, but as "that dude with the freakin' big sword".

Long live Ike, the true representative of Fire Emblem fans!

As for Miciaiah, the latest issue of Nintendo Power reffered to her as "the main lord" in their GoD preview. That's good enough for me.

No, Marth was recognized as the first FE lord, while Roy was the most recent. The GBA games are dispised in Japan, remember. I myself hated FE 8 The Sacred Stones because the entire game was too easy. I'm still ticked about nintendo taking out maniac mode for PoR. Very few people even like Ephriam and they still think of Marth once you mention FE (I've actually asked some random people what Fire Emblem was and they said "that's Marth's game right?") Even non FE fans know who Marth is, but when you say Ike they have no clue.
Yes Ike is suited to be the NEW FE rep, but Marth is suited to be the OLD FE rep.

Everyone knows that NOW, but I was refering to back when Melee was released and noone outside japan had heard of the series.

Sure, Marth is now more recagnizable (Smash sells more than FE) but once Ike replaces him, everyone will associate HIM with the series - as they rightly should.

The FE series is full of great games, but putting characters from the Japanese only games OR the GBA games is not the way to go since those games aren't popular worldwide. PoR is the only common ground between Japan and the rest of the world, so it makes sense to include reps exclusively from that game (and possibly its upcoming sequel).

 

[Johnknight1]

That's a pretty reasonable prediction. I could definitely live with that, though I'm one of the few who is actually hoping for quite a few clones as it would increase the total number of characters dramatically. Making them as unique as Luigi would be great, but like you said its probably not realistic.

Yes, while many say they are lazy, they are actually nice. Having Fox and Falco being almost the same, but have their attacks have the exact opposite effects were nice. I wouldn't mind 6 of them or so, which I'm assuming 6 or 7 is the most we'll see.

A one in two chance is probably fair - maing Mii one of the more likely candidates but nowhere near the level of Diddy or Dedede (funny how those two sound alike) which isn't too shaby considering that none of use would have even considered the character a year ago.

Did any of us know about Miis a year ago=??? I didn't know about them until well...I got my Wii! The only problem I have with them is well, they're totally customizable (it's sorta a good/bad thing, but mroe good)! When online, we'll have to be prepared to face stupid looking Miis, plain hidious looking Miis, the most ridiculous looking Miis, and maybe even my worst fear...a Napolean Dynamite Mii! I think I'm going to have nightmares just thinking about someone wasting their time to make one!

It may have polished the forulae introduced by Mario's earlier games - but I wouldn't call DKC as revolutionary as the original Zelda (which basically invented the adventure game and was the first to use a save feature) or OoT which set a new standard for what a videogame could be at the time. That legacy of breaking the mold multiple times is why I consider Zelda to be a more important franchise than Pokemon of DKC.

I wasn't comparing DKC to the level of tLOZ, I said it reinvented the formula a few steps below it. There aren't many games that reinvented video gaming like tLOZ (the first worldwide release where you could save, some Japan only game beat it to it), Zelda II (one with the most impact IMO), ALTTP, LA, OOT, etc.

But still, the legacy of DKC is a classic one, that will probably never fade. The DKC series is truely a classic one, along with DK 1-3, and I'd even say DK64 was pretty good too. Still have to get, or at least try DK: King of Swing....

Say JohnKight1, could you draw a pic of Commander Kahn in Brawl and leave the paper unattended for an hour or two?

Maybe, if i knew how to draw him. To be honest, I'm only decent at drawing, and the only reasons I drew the characters I did is they were awsome, and were relatively easy to draw from a distance. Kahn would be harder I imagine, but he'd be neat. Darn, maybe I should have made it like the boxart, and sayu "Wi-Fi compatible, with up to 8 players online", or something like that. the thing about Kahn is I'd be worried about his moveset, but by SSB4 I'm sure I'll use my "magical drawing powers" to confirm him!

I'm little confused in that regard. Are there two FE stages (one inside the castle and one on top of it) or is one massive Hyrule Temple style stage? Time will tell...

I'll explain this, I didn't get it for a while=confusing if you don't know about it. It could be one stage, but more than likely it's two stages. I've got a link here to explain. Watch 1:47-1:52 to see the other FE stage that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF7mTOI7wsA

If you want any more stage info, I highly suggest you check out the official stage discussion thread=very helpful, and very intresting. I learned a lot from that thread, and i'm sure anyone could learn and notice some intresting stuff there.

That could work, but not before many of the other characters get a clone. Fox already has one clone, he doesn't need tow - in my humble opinion.

It'd be like the Doc, Mario, and Luigi relationship, in fact exactly like that! You got the original character (Fox), the past clone sorta decloned (Falco, but not entirely to the Luigi extremes), and the new clone (Wolf, but somewhere closer to Falco in Melee). That could work again, maybe....

Good call. Since I don't own a PS2, I'm limited to GC, Wii and DS games at the moment. Of the few PS2 games I've played, I also recomend Dragon Quest VIII and Metal Gear Solid 3. If only I could play 24 the Game....

I looked everywhere for MGS3, and I was mad because everytime they had just sold out of it! If I got MGS3, I'd be entertained for a LONG time, because I played it=sick! I played either DQ VI or VII, but I don't remeber a few years back. I'll definitely check out DQ VIII=Square Enix is probably one of the best 3rd party developers. Seriously, Square Enix has mad so many legendary RPG's and action RPG's, it's insane!

I hope we see three, but I somehow doubt it. If we do see three FE characters in Brawl, Marth's chances increase - though I'd personally prefer to see both the Black Knight and Miciaiah ahead of him.

I say its safe to assume we'll see three. Look at the facts, the series hit video games worldwide with a boom!!!, that continues to get louder each game. FE may well be up there with Star Fox and Metroid as flagship series owned by Nintendo's 1st/2nd parties. Well, if the series keeps getting more popular at the rate it's going in 5 or 6 years or such.

Most of them, but not all. Ike is arguably ahead of him (since non-Japanese people can actually but his games...) but Miciaiah is pretty close since her inclusion would help her game sell this fall.

I think Ike and Marth are the most desired, but Miciah, Roy, and Hector are close behind. Still, I think if we get 3 FE characters (very likely), we'll see Ike and Marth almost guarenteed, and then either Miciah or Roy (I'll root for Roy).

No arguments here. Nintendo's decision to neglect the non-Japanese FE and Earthboud fans by failing to localize these game on VC is just a poor bussiness decision - plain and simple.

But if they turn it around, it would be nice. Maybe with all the major titles they are releasing this year (Pokemon, SM Galaxy, MP3, BRAWL!!!), they'll try to destroy the competition. Still, it is a little overhopeful, but doing this could definitely turn things around, and would be a huge step forward for the Wii and Nintendo. The VC already pwns all non-online PS3 and 360 features, add these games, and it's pwnage to the max, plus happy us!

All those are great ideas, though my heart is still set on Perfect Dark, Golden Eye and SSB64. If you REALLY want to dream, how about Starcraft - not the N64 version but the REAL game. With motion controls for a precise RTS interface and online play. Now THAT would print money.

SSB64 might come out soon on the VC (I heard rumors, and they could be true), and Nintendo is bound to put Perfect Dark and 007 Golden Eye up on the VC. Starcraft, well I never heard or it until the SC2 release stuff, which is odd because I love RTS=how had I not heard of it. However, to cancel that out I played it at a friend's house, and it was pretty awsome. The motion controls and online...well if the motion controls worked like Twilight Princess over several crap Wii motion sensor games.

Cahnge is good. Embrace it. Hardly anyone had heard of Marth or G&W before their Smash debut. If they are cut, their replacemnts would soon become just as well known as beloved. Chances are, noone will like ALL the characters who make it - but everyone chould be able to find at least one character they love.

Everyone except the people who are like "zomg, where is Master Chief, he's teh best character 3vr!", or "zomg, where is Crash Bandicoot, he is ownde by Ninteedndo", with that exact spelling! Other than that, everyone should be happy, even if they're main is cut (which would suck).

Nothing is for certain, and I doubt the validity of the rumor you metioned, but I still think Ness' status as one of the original 12 makes him safe. He, Captain Falcon and Jiggs have been with the series since the beggining, so I suspect that Sakurai will keep them for the sake of continuity. Its the same reason why Goldeen is making his third appearance - some things have been with Smash so long that they take on a life of their own.

What about Oynx or Hitmonlee=poor them, got dropped in Melee. Ness has a cult following, Jiggs was (get this) the original starting Pokemon, and Capt. Falcon is still the star of the F-Zero series, which is still running! If Ness was cut, well loyal follwers to the Earthbound cult (myself included) would be extremely upset! in other words, some retro characters could leave, but cult classic characters have little chance at leaving, ever!

I'm all for retro characters appearing - as a guest appearance. Intead of keeping the same retro chaacters game afater game, each instalment of Smash should include a new batch of cool but forgotten characters. Melee had ICs and G%W. Brawl can have Pit and one or two others (Geno and Balloon Fighter come to mind). Only characters from a currently thriving series deserve to hang with legends like Mario, Link and Snake permanently.

Well I think the only other new retro character than Pit we could see is Geno, but Balloon Fight and Mach Rider are definitely possilbities. When I posted that, I could only think of Olimar and Miis as new modern characters, but I forgot my main man WW Link (wtf? How did I forget him=???), Midna, Dark Samus, Lucario, Deoxys, and Krystal. Still, most of the random spots will go to retro characters, so I don't think Kahn is quite possible.

So here we go:
Modern Characters: Miis, Olimar, Midna, WW Link, Dark Samus, Deoxys, Lucario, and Krystal.

Retro Characters: Ness (keep in mind Earthbound is over 12 years old!), Pit, G&W, Geno, Marth, IC. Maybe one more, but that is generally what it could very well look like.

Overall: 7 or 8 Modern Characters, 5-7 classic characters, the rest will generally be long-ruinning series' major characters.

No, retros should be replaces by other retros. Supporting characters like Falco (if they are replaced) will be replaced by other supporting characters like Krytal and Wolf. Four SF reps is certainly possible, but given the huge list of worthy characters I think it's going a bit overboard.

But many lists resemble it, and if some are clones, how cna it go overboard? 44 characters isn't that high, and if you have 4 or 5 clones it is a safe assumption. Heck, Sakurai could have 41 or 42 originals for all we know, and considering how this is probably the biggest title that will ever hit the Wii, Nintendo has got to be backing it up with more help and staff than ever before. Not to mention this will probably the #1 online Wii game for as long as the Wii is out.

There's no arguing with that. All I'm saying is that he shouldn't be counted as Mario series rep in Smash Bros, but rather a represantaive of his own series.

Same here, but Yoshi can't forget his roots.

I'll give you that Pokeom has had its inovations, just not to same extent as Zelda - which is constantly pushing barriers. For the record, a game doesn't have to be revolutionary to be great. Some of my favorite games (Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Tetris DS) didn't reinvent a genre but perfected what was already great.

LOL, everytime i go to school, I see more and more people at my school playing one of the Pokemon games, or at least talking about it. Seriously, the number of people playing it is astonding, every single Pokemon game. I even saw people facing each other, a lot of people, a lot of times. It's getting scary high=reminds me of 3rd and 4th grade.

The thing that I find odd about Pokemon is the number of Pokemon. Honestly, there are just a few short of 500 Pokemon, and the memory on the DS D/P cartidges is great since it can all those endless Pokemon! "Gotta catch em' all" has never been harder, and it keeps getting harder! In ten more years, we'll have 9,000 Pokemon, there won't be graphics anymore (video games will look exactly like real life), and SSB5 will have 100 characters, all the past SSB characters, plus a few 40 more! Overhopeful, but the Pokemon part could be true, well minus a zero at least!

Or we can have our cake and eat it too. Nook can represnt past AC games while Mii represents any future games. Everyone wins. And I, for one, totally want to play as that Racoon.

I'm not technically against Nook, I jsut think there are better characters. I want Miis in 1st, but if he's a last minute addition, i'm fine with it. Just as long as he isn't the Pichu of Brawl, but he should definitely be held out on to on e of the last possible characters.

Point taken, but I think you'll admit that not all Smash characters have to be like Ridley and Ganondorf. Smash is about including a wide variety of character styles - so Brawl can have characters like Solid Snake for people who like that kind of character and it can also have characters like WW Link and Tom Nook who appeal to a different crowd. Fortunatly for me, I like both realistic and cartoony characters.

LOL, Ness is a dirty little boy=njk! The cel-shaded characters work, and for anyone who doesn't believe me, just look at Kirby. Plus behind the mask WW Link is as brutal and uber powerful as TP Link, plus he can like do triple backflips! Nintendo is going to attract all ages with Brawl, from 5 (with Pikachu) to 100 (*Snake* okay, maybe not that old, but you never know! ).

Fortunately for me, idc about graphics, and for the people who believe in graphics>gameplay/fun need to takek a fresh walk outdoors. People like that annoy me=only care about graphics=not n00bs, scrubs! I'm not talking about anyone in particular, just rambling about how I hate fools who care about graphics over gameplay. Have fun watching while I play!

Fair enough. I'll rent it ASAP and we'll discuss this afterwards.

I don't even own it! Then again, like EBA now I can't find SF: Command! I swear, something is wrong with me, I see a game that looks neat, go back and try to buy it, and it's all sold out. Maybe I got it from my friend, whom saw the Wii TP all over, everywhere, he get's a Wii, and it's sold out everywhere for 2 weeks. I feel bad for him, that two weeks he could have been playing one of the closest things to video game perfection we'll ever know.

Message to George Lucas: Light Saber game on Wii. NOW!

Message to George Lucas: Have the Force Unleashed come to the Wii with online, and awsome jedi saber skillz like the movies. If it was half as good as Jedi Academy II (best Star Wars game, ever!), then we'd be in for a treat. Plus, starting 08' Nintendo will allow it's 3rd party developers to make online games! w00t, took them long enough, only half a year to go!

Message 2 to George Lucas: Make the game be half as good as TP, plus online (*cough* up to 16 people=maybe a little high for Nintendo), and it'll be one of the most played Wii online games.

I've heard about the Clone Wars from my brother - who caught the whole series on the Cartoon Network. Since it was made by Gendi Tartakofski (the genius behind the beyond awesome Saumerai Jack) I've been searching for the series on DVD. Know anywhere on the interweb where I could view it?

Yotube=how I viewed all of them. It is a pretty sick series, definitely a lot like the ever awsome Samurai Jak. The story actually makes it make sense, just type in Clone Wars Episode (ie: 1, 22), and it should pop up.

Like you should have to be forced to watch the BSG series! It's the pinacle of what a Sci-Fi drama can deliver. Anyways, you got to see a great series and there's one more Smash fan out there. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Yae, I enjoyed it, and I'm pushing my friend to become addicted to Smash. Everyone wins!

Don't worry about getting off topic. This is the Wiseguy thread, and the topic is whatever I say it is, dang it!
I love the idea of including a greater range of alternate costumes for Link and others as long as it isn't too time consuming. How about a Big Boss alternate costume with an eye patch for Snake?

Sounds good to me, and how about as another Snake outfit, he's his old form like in MGS4. Plus giving him a beard would be pretty funny and neat as well. But he should get a diffrent color outfit, how about Pink, lol to show off his manlyness=???

Welcome back Mendez. We were getting worried about your absence and were beggining to organize search parties. Incidentilly, don't belive anyone on the Zelda Discussion Thread who tells you that I spread rumors that you and I are the same person.

It was all me!

See JohnKnight1? Nook is more popular than you realize. Nook for Brawl!

You have your alter ego, Chief on your side! Any you don't like Shiek/Zelda, shame on you!

Poor Joe. Did Capcom really have to ruin his reputation before they killed him? Maybe we'll see the read wonder revived one day...

Plus Clover, the division of Capcom that made him was closed after the production of Okami, so he's got about as close to 0% as you can get. Well, next to Plusle and Minun at least.

If you're referring to the fact that you can make a Miamoto Mii, then yeah. But by that logic, we'll also see Abraham Lincoln, Simon Cowell and Paris Hilton in Brawl.

Paris Hilton for Brawl! Who needs online multiplayer when you can beat up a mindless wierdo! Abraham Lincoln will totally be awosme, and we could have the ultimate President showdown! Washington vs. Jefferson, Licoln vs. Roosevelt (FDR), Kenedy (JFK) vs. Clinton, and Reagon vs. Truman! Plus Bush and Bush vs. Adams and Adams=the ultimate team battle! Now who wouldn't pay money to see that=???

Really? It seems to be Spire's one-shot-kill sniper lazer that gets me every time. Regardless, I'm going to stubornly stick to playing as Samus - like the true Metroid fan I am.

Spire's 1 headshot kill pwns me everytime! However, I use Samus, Kraden, and Spire, so I think I'm good off. Hope all of them (or some of them at least) are playable in MP3, assuming it has online=better be better than MP2's multiplayer=just like a mini-game you only occasionally play. Hope we get a MP1/2+Fusion and Zero Mission like story+MP Hunter's awsome online with MP3. *fingers crossed*

Thanks. To be honest, I think I heard someone else mention it, which is where I got the idea. I just want to see Ressetti in the Brawl in some form.

I mentioned Resetti is better for Brawl than Nook IMO. Seriously, there should be a level where you fight on Nintendo systems (sorta like Big Blue) as they scroll by, and if you hit that reset button...well our favorite angry mole pops up, or that one random quiet one!

Not for very long he wasn't. He met te bussiness end of Samuel L. Jackson's lightsaber before you could could say : waisted oppurtunity". One of many in those movies.

Much was wasted, but I bet a fight scene between Jango Fett and Mace Windu was cut because Episode II was too long=the longest Star Wars movie. O well, that fight with Dooku and the Clone Wars scenes are intensely amazing! It doesn't get much better than that! Or maybe it was a real life recreation of how Samuel L. Jackson pwns all=???

Yep. Bowser Jr. has been in many games, from Mario Tennis, Kart, Baseball, Golf and of course Sunshine.

And NEW Super Mario Bros.

I too loved WW, but Twilight Princess is a much better game overall. More dungeons, more fun items, more mini games and side quests, more memorable characters mean that there is simply more of TP to love. I also consider TP's Wii controls to be a vast improvement over all Zelda control schemes. I will give you that WW's graphics are more visually appealing that TP's.

Twilight Princess>Ocarina of Time=A Link to the Past>Majora's Mask=Wind Waker>Link's Awakening>tLOZ>Zelda II>Four Swords>Four Swords Adventures. Need to play more Minish Cap, Oracles of Seasons, and Oracles of Ages=too true. Seriously though, the only LOZ game I beat more than WW is tLOZ (too many times to be healthy), but I've played WW by far the most. Still, it would be awsome to get a Wii release of OOT, MM, and WW with the Wii remote and numchuck=uber pwnage!

Regardless, we're finally getting a WW sequel with LoZ: Phantom Hourglass on the DS so now everyone can be happy.

YIPEE! *goes off and jumps for joy*

Seriously Mendez, is there any game you HAVEN'T played?!?!

Ask if he's played Superman 64=most (myself included) consider it to be the worst game ever made! Thank god I didn't buy it on the N64=almost did=saw my friend play it and there was no camera, Superman was suppose to be able to pick up cars (in which if he touched them he glitched up or it didn't work), and he was suppose to be able to fly (in which while flying the control stick only makes you go left or right, sorta like walking!). If you think that game is the best game ever, you have no soul!

The inovations brought forth by the original LoZ and Oot are nothing to sneeze at. Also, Windwaker introduced its revolutionary art style which proved that a videogame could be an artistic masterpiece. Also, TP introduced Wii controls - the ultimate inovation. Pokemon may be great, but it hasn't been nearly as inovative as Zelda.

tLOZ introduced us to saving the game, a world map larger than any before it, multiple weapons (basically impossible to make then), and a second quest! Zelda II is the birth of action RPG's as we know them, ALTTP was the first game to have a alternate world or dimension (the Dark World), and had more items than you could count with your fingers, LA totally remade the combat system, OOT was the perfect 3rd person translation, that is attempted to be copied after by nearly every 3rd person game to date.

MM brought a mask system that is revolutionary, a challenging timed game, and a very Empire Strikes Back like story. WW introuduced a revampted combat system and combat commands, FS and FSA brought four person play, and 4 person control to play, MC brought a intresting shrinking and growing system back, and TP...well we should all know that by now!

Good point. I'll have to consider it. But this is the Brawl Character Discussion section, so stage discussion should probably belong in general Brawl discussion. But then, if we can discuss the merits of Star Wars and Communism on this thread, Stage discussion should also be allowed.

More like counter-Communism. In terms of strength, democratic republics and democracy are like Ganondorf, while Communism is like Tingle=pwned!

The PS2's library is great, no doubt. The down side: all proceeds go to the evil Sony executives. Did you know that Sony heats their company buildings by burning baby seal oil?

Al Gore would be ashamed, as if Jack Thompson isn't ashamed enough! Plus it contributes to Sony PS3 fanboyism, in which they talk about their virtual reality controllers they stole from Nintendo, their rumble stolen from Nintendo (Microsoft was honorable and bought it), the Blue Ray that noone cares about (the Wii should get it to pwn all Sony fanboys!), and a huge PS3 library that is no-existent. All they got is Resistance=amazing, and MotorStorm which is pretty good, but Resistance: FoM<GoW<god<god<tLOZ:TP.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Marth was NOT the fan favorite. Sigurd was the fan favorite, but he was ditched at the last minute to make room for Roy to market the release of FE 6. Yes Marth was popular, but he was included in melee to show the roots of Fire Emblem.

Actually, Marth was the most requested FE character on the melee polls, and was the 11th most requested character overall. Heck, 'Random FE character' and Celice were requested more than Sigurd was, which is why I'm skeptical of Sigurd supposedly being the most popular Lord in Japan.

Regardless, popularity was a huge factor in Marth's favour. Sakurai seemed pretty intent to add Sigurd as the main FE rep (if the rumours that he was originally considered to be in the first smash), but after the melee polls decided to go with Marth.

As for Miciaiah, the latest issue of Nintendo Power reffered to her as "the main lord" in their GoD preview. That's good enough for me.

It's actually not as simple as saying either is the main character of the game. Neither are playable throughout the entire game, and Ike doesn't make an appearance for the first half of it while Micaiah is absent for a while. There are even parts where neither are playable (and the central character is Elincia or Tibarn), and there are times were several characters fall under the die=game over catergory, even if they aren't at later points in the plot. That said, ultimately all characters reach the point where they can be killed off, besides Ike and Micaiah, (yes, even Sothe apparently), so they definately seem to be the two most important characters in the game. And from what I can tell, Micaiah seems incredibly important to the plot, probably even more so than Ike.

 

[Smady]

Sorry. Poor sentence structure on my part. I meant to say that you said his sucking and flying are already similar to Kirbys and, I added, his hammer could work like Kirby's.

Seriously, the hammer could not work like that. He always carries it around and he'd only use it for a B? Next you'll suggest we take his hat away too you bully!

True, Dx3 never fights with his hands in his games (though he does wack you with his hammer and fall on you) but then, neither does Kirby!

As far as the inhaling part goes, Kirby and Dx3 behave similarly. It's just what they do afterwards that is different. Kirby swallows, Dx3 sipts them out. This change would be consistent with a Luigi style clone.

Yes, but Kirby doesn't really do any attacking before inhaling people in his games so that point is moot. Dx3 (easier to type than Dedede, nice idea) behaves quite different when inhaling/exhaling. He obviously can't absorb, that's one, he shoots them out, that's two, he sometimes shoots out stars, that's three, he can't keep them in his mouth for more than two seconds, that's four and finally, number five, he has only exhaled when on the ground/floating a few inches off it. There's also the point that his floating is less controlled because of his weight. I'd say that's enough for it to be an un-clonifiable or at the least very hard to clone move, unless you want to sacrifice the novelty of Dx3 which is unacceptable.

Sure there are differences in the two characters. However,t here are far fewer differences between them than, say, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

They have small similarities. A weaker hammer was given to Kirby, which is very obviously unsuitable for. Kirby's cutter would also look humiliatingly bad for Dx3, unless turned into some kind of Bowser-like suicide slam that would be useless.

If the Smash team doesn't clone all the characters who are similar (which Kirby and Dx3 are) then there will be fewer characters who make it into the game - meaning that more original additions like Olimar may not make the cut.

Excuse me, what? I think we should clone the un-important characters, the ones that are add-ons, not the most popular. It's not about how similar one new character could be to another, the Smash team are aiming to make a game with no clones. Cloning is there as a convenience to save time if two are the same body structure. Dx3 is larger than Kirby, so the process would be lost on him. Again, he is the most requested character for 'Brawl and will have been one of the first developed for.

You may hate clones, but the last time I checked characters like Doc and Falco were just as popular as any original character. Including clones is an easy way of inceasing the size of the roster and, when done correctly, theses clones are fun and worthy additions to the game..

I don't hate clones. I do, however, feel clones are necessary. But you seem to love the idea of clones! The developers are going out of their way to de-clone 'Brawl, as with 'Melee, and will make as many characters origional as they can. It's only when with constricted time you get clones. So why would they plan clone characters? I'm sure there's the idea in their head so they can laze around the house all day and go to work and create a small, blue Kirby with Dx3's hat, but it isn't going to happen.

 

[Dark Sonic]

He is important to the series, I just don't consider him as important now that the series has a global fanbase as opposed to one centered in Japan. With only two ot three FE characters making it in I think that all FE reps should come from games that are popular among FE fans everywhere - not just Japan.




1.With only a couple of roster slots, there is no possible way to represent all the FE games. So I deicided to represent the only game in the entire eries that is loved by FE fans everywhere.

2.In Japan (where the series was born) people love Marth and Sigurd's games the most - even though hardly anyone outside japan has played them. Outside Japan (where the majority of FE games are sold) Fire Emblem GBA is the fan favorite - in spite of the fact that Japanese gamers depise both GBA games. Path of Radiance is the only game that is loved in both japan and everywhere else. And since it is also the game with the most popular lord as well as the most recently released game in the series, I think having its characters represent the entire series is fair.

3. inclusion of the BK was based on the assumption that the FE series would get one original character and one clone. As clones go, BK is a far better candidate for Ike's clone than Marth (I see him as an ultra heavy and powerful Ike copy with a teloport Up-B) and his appearance and pressence contrast Ike's nicely.



4.While the two are certainly different enough that they couldn't be clones, I suspect they could still make Ike's moveset similar enough to Marth's that fans won't be too upset. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Marth's sword is much smaller than Ike's from PoR - though his GoD sword is pretty huge.



5.Yes, but those slight differences in colour and haircuts do exist - but even if they went with the GoD Ike they would still be very similar in appearance in my view. And since Ike's role in PoR was greater, I highly suspect that's the version they will go with.





6. IF Marth gets in as a representative of the FE series (which I still doubt) it will because of his role in the Fire Emblem series - not his popularity in Melee. Most of Marth's so called "fans" outside Japan don't care about Fire Emblem or Marth's role in the series - they only play as him because his moveset is one of the most cheap and overpowered in Melee. The sad truth is that most people will remember Marth, not as a Fire emblem lord, but as "that dude with the freakin' big sword".

Long live Ike, the true representative of Fire Emblem fans!

7. As for Miciaiah, the latest issue of Nintendo Power reffered to her as "the main lord" in their GoD preview. That's good enough for me.



8. Everyone knows that NOW, but I was refering to back when Melee was released and no one outside japan had heard of the series.

9. Sure, Marth is now more recagnizable (Smash sells more than FE) but once Ike replaces him, everyone will associate HIM with the series - as they rightly should.

10. The FE series is full of great games, but putting characters from the Japanese only games OR the GBA games is not the way to go since those games aren't popular worldwide. PoR is the only common ground between Japan and the rest of the world, so it makes sense to include reps exclusively from that game (and possibly its upcoming sequel).

1. That makes sense except for one thing. The vast majority of FE games are Japan Only. By not putting anyone from the Japanese FE, you're cutting out over half of FE's history. Are you saying that the first 6 games in the series are unimportant to FE fans?

2.Having ONE of it's characters representing the NEW FE is fair, but you can't ignore that FE has only recently been internationalized and that the majority of the series were never seen by people out of Japan. If it weren't for Marth, we never would've known about this great series

3. Marth could simply use his current moveset while Ike gets a new one. If we only get two FE characters, we shouldn't hope for a clone (see how that did in melee). We should get two characters with much different playstyles.

4. Ike isn't the same type of fighter as Marth. It looks as if you think anyone with a sword fights the same way. Ike is a mercenary who has a crude style of swordplay that focuses on the force with which he swings his sword. His technique is only meant to conserve energy while his sword makes crushing blows. Does that sound anything like Marth? No. Not to mention the Falcion weighs 3 while Ragnell weighs 16. In comparison Ragnell is a beast to wield.

5. I think they should put GoD Ike because it will be releasing around that time this year. It's not just the hair, their outfits, and even size are different. Not to mention Ike is like 19, while Marth is 15 or so.

6. Can't you count both? Many FE fans only got into the series because they wanted to see where Marth was from. The better a character he was, the more people wanted to see where he came from. Many FE fans outside of Japan were Marth fans before they even dabbled in the series, and remained Marth fans afterword. We owe Marth for opening our eyes to FE and without him, we wouldn't even know Ike or Miciaiah, and would've never even gotten this game off the shelves. Marth is the one who made it possible to have FE fans.

7. True, but she doesn't lead your army for over half the game (including the last part where all your armies come together). She is important for the storyline, but plays second seat to Ike overall.

8. It says it on Marth's trophy.

9. Ike is representing the international FE games. All 3 of them (4 if you include GoD).
Marth is representing the first 6 FE games and he was in 2 of them. Marth represents more FE games than Ike, so Marth represents more of FE than Ike.

10. But the majority of FE games are Japan only and they still need to be represented. Including reps from only 1/3 of the series is not fair to the FE fans who like the first 2/3 of the series.

Marth was arguably one of the most unique characters in melee (dispite him having a clone) because his style is so different and flexible. Marth fits into almost every style of play while maintaining the elegant swordsman feel. That is what MADE melee for me. Marth swings his sword like he's waving his arm and his grace is complemented by his appearence. Being gracefull doesn't make you a wuss. *stares at Battosai the Manslayer from Rurouni Kenshin* IMO it's what makes a swordsman well, a swordsman and Ike is definately no swordsman.

 

[Net17]

WiseGuy, this is the best brawl roster prediction I've ever seen. Pretty much everything you said is exactly what I was thinking. I completely agree with you on Olimar and heck, every other character on this flippin' list! I've been to a bunch of other web sites and this one is by far the best and in my opinion, the most accurate. 11/10

(Hope this makes a good first post...)

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Diddy could very well have the same moves Donkey Kong has...Donkey Kong only uses one move he used in his games...the rest are generic hand to hand type moves that anyone could use, really.

Diddy as a DK clone? Surely you jest?

 

[YosterDragon]

Welcome to Smash Boards, YosterDragon. That is one heck of a first post.

In addition to being a truly enjoyable read, your roster suggestions are some of the best I've heard. I suspect most of the Pokemon crowd would have a heart attack if Red made it in, but I for one wouldn't be bothered in the least.

Otherwise, you've put together an exceptional list with all the likely candidates and a few surprises like Jill and Ray Mk 01. Great reasoning behind all your choices as well.

One minor flaw (which is really my fault for not mentioning it in the rules...) is that Samus and Zamus actually count for two characters since they each have a unique moveset. However, since I'm confident that you can tweak your list to compensate for this, I'm giving your roster a rare 10/10. Excellent job, and once again, welcome to Smash Boards.

Thanks for the warm welcome, Wiseguy. Glad the list was entertaining, especially when I realize how long it actually took to make I'll have to tweak it to fit that last critique when I can think clearly about so many characters again.

Diddy as a DK clone? Surely you jest?

Gotta agree with Ferro De Lupe here. The entire point of having Diddy along when he was introduced in DKC was to be a counterpoint to DK's abilities (small and quick versus brute strength). With so many "I'm gonna pummel you into the ground" type moves that DK has, I don't see Diddy having the same effect.

 

[Wiseguy]

It's my day off, and I'm updating the runner's up list with four new characters as we speak. Stay tuned.


Also, I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I'm fighting quote wars on multiple fronts...

Did any of us know about Miis a year ago=??? I didn't know about them until well...I got my Wii! The only problem I have with them is well, they're totally customizable (it's sorta a good/bad thing, but mroe good)! When online, we'll have to be prepared to face stupid looking Miis, plain hidious looking Miis, the most ridiculous looking Miis, and maybe even my worst fear...a Napolean Dynamite Mii! I think I'm going to have nightmares just thinking about someone wasting their time to make one!

We saw Miis of Miamoto and Reggie at E3, but we didn't know they were customizable at that point.

I personally think it would be awesome seeing other Smasher's Miis in action over Wi-fi. If they suck, all the more fun will be had when kicking the snot out the them.

Plus, we can exchange friend codes and settle our Anakin vs. Jack Bauer rivalry once and for all!

I wasn't comparing DKC to the level of tLOZ, I said it reinvented the formula a few steps below it. There aren't many games that reinvented video gaming like tLOZ (the first worldwide release where you could save, some Japan only game beat it to it), Zelda II (one with the most impact IMO), ALTTP, LA, OOT, etc.

But still, the legacy of DKC is a classic one, that will probably never fade. The DKC series is truely a classic one, along with DK 1-3, and I'd even say DK64 was pretty good too. Still have to get, or at least try DK: King of Swing....

DK Jungle Beat is another innovative DK game. DK Jet for the Wii also looks pretty good. Again, I have nothing against Starfox, Pokemon or DKC - I did give them three, four and three characters, respectively. I just think the Mario and Zelda series deserve special recognition which is why I assigned them more reps than any other series.

Maybe, if i knew how to draw him. To be honest, I'm only decent at drawing, and the only reasons I drew the characters I did is they were awsome, and were relatively easy to draw from a distance. Kahn would be harder I imagine, but he'd be neat. Darn, maybe I should have made it like the boxart, and sayu "Wi-Fi compatible, with up to 8 players online", or something like that. the thing about Kahn is I'd be worried about his moveset, but by SSB4 I'm sure I'll use my "magical drawing powers" to confirm him!

8 players would be great, but the Dojo update specifically said four. Maybe in SSB4...

I'll explain this, I didn't get it for a while=confusing if you don't know about it. It could be one stage, but more than likely it's two stages. I've got a link here to explain. Watch 1:47-1:52 to see the other FE stage that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF7mTOI7wsA

If you want any more stage info, I highly suggest you check out the official stage discussion thread=very helpful, and very intresting. I learned a lot from that thread, and i'm sure anyone could learn and notice some intresting stuff there.

One stage or two, either way that stage look really, really cool. Can't wait to try it out.

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely be consulting the Satge Discussion thread in the fututre for all my Stage related needs.

It'd be like the Doc, Mario, and Luigi relationship, in fact exactly like that! You got the original character (Fox), the past clone sorta decloned (Falco, but not entirely to the Luigi extremes), and the new clone (Wolf, but somewhere closer to Falco in Melee). That could work again, maybe....

I could sort of see that working, seeing as how Fox's moveset is so popular. Still, I'd much rather see a clone from a different series (ie: Black Knight, Poo, Goroh, etc.) instead. Still, I can see what your saying and it's definitely possible.

I looked everywhere for MGS3, and I was mad because everytime they had just sold out of it! If I got MGS3, I'd be entertained for a LONG time, because I played it=sick! I played either DQ VI or VII, but I don't remeber a few years back. I'll definitely check out DQ VIII=Square Enix is probably one of the best 3rd party developers. Seriously, Square Enix has mad so many legendary RPG's and action RPG's, it's insane!

Did you see the new trailer for FF: Crystal Chronicles on Wii?

http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=68028

Looks pretty great.

I think Ike and Marth are the most desired, but Miciah, Roy, and Hector are close behind. Still, I think if we get 3 FE characters (very likely), we'll see Ike and Marth almost guarenteed, and then either Miciah or Roy (I'll root for Roy).

Roy over the Black Knight? FOR SHAME!

But if they turn it around, it would be nice. Maybe with all the major titles they are releasing this year (Pokemon, SM Galaxy, MP3, BRAWL!!!), they'll try to destroy the competition. Still, it is a little overhopeful, but doing this could definitely turn things around, and would be a huge step forward for the Wii and Nintendo. The VC already pwns all non-online PS3 and 360 features, add these games, and it's pwnage to the max, plus happy us!

Very true. This Fall is shaping up to be a truly great one for gamers of all stripes, and Nintendo fans especially. I can hardly believe that Prime 3 is coming THIS AUGUST! Even that game alone would make the Wii a must buy.

What about Oynx or Hitmonlee=poor them, got dropped in Melee. Ness has a cult following, Jiggs was (get this) the original starting Pokemon, and Capt. Falcon is still the star of the F-Zero series, which is still running! If Ness was cut, well loyal follwers to the Earthbound cult (myself included) would be extremely upset! in other words, some retro characters could leave, but cult classic characters have little chance at leaving, ever!

Fair enough, but I think we disagree somewhat on which ones are classic" enough is warrant returning.

Well I think the only other new retro character than Pit we could see is Geno, but Balloon Fight and Mach Rider are definitely possilbities. When I posted that, I could only think of Olimar and Miis as new modern characters, but I forgot my main man WW Link (wtf? How did I forget him=???), Midna, Dark Samus, Lucario, Deoxys, and Krystal. Still, most of the random spots will go to retro characters, so I don't think Kahn is quite possible.

So here we go:
Modern Characters: Miis, Olimar, Midna, WW Link, Dark Samus, Deoxys, Lucario, and Krystal.

Retro Characters: Ness (keep in mind Earthbound is over 12 years old!), Pit, G&W, Geno, Marth, IC. Maybe one more, but that is generally what it could very well look like.

Overall: 7 or 8 Modern Characters, 5-7 classic characters, the rest will generally be long-running series' major characters.

I never thought about it that way. You could onto something by balancing the # of retros with the newer characters. We'll have to see...

But would you really prefer to see G&w and ICs return over new additions like Mac, Balloon Fighter or Mach Rider? There are a ton of forgotten characters who deserve a shot at Brawl just as much as those two...

But many lists resemble it, and if some are clones, how cna it go overboard? 44 characters isn't that high, and if you have 4 or 5 clones it is a safe assumption. Heck, Sakurai could have 41 or 42 originals for all we know, and considering how this is probably the biggest title that will ever hit the Wii, Nintendo has got to be backing it up with more help and staff than ever before. Not to mention this will probably the #1 online Wii game for as long as the Wii is out.

Not overboard in terms of the total # of characters, but overboard in the sense that it would be over representing the Starfox series, in my view. There are a ton of awesome characters who deserve to be in Brawl just as much as Falco, but are STILL waiting for a shot at the big time. Falco has had his chance, so its time for give that chance to some other character.

LOL, everytime i go to school, I see more and more people at my school playing one of the Pokemon games, or at least talking about it. Seriously, the number of people playing it is astonding, every single Pokemon game. I even saw people facing each other, a lot of people, a lot of times. It's getting scary high=reminds me of 3rd and 4th grade.

The thing that I find odd about Pokemon is the number of Pokemon. Honestly, there are just a few short of 500 Pokemon, and the memory on the DS D/P cartidges is great since it can all those endless Pokemon! "Gotta catch em' all" has never been harder, and it keeps getting harder! In ten more years, we'll have 9,000 Pokemon, there won't be graphics anymore (video games will look exactly like real life), and SSB5 will have 100 characters, all the past SSB characters, plus a few 40 more! Overhopeful, but the Pokemon part could be true, well minus a zero at least!

Evertime I think I've seen the last of Pokeon, the series is reborn once again like an undead zombie and the craze begins a new. With the games already selling zillions of copies, and the DS dominating like nobdy's bussiness I expect Nintendo to achieve total world domination by year's end - and I'll be the only one who notices because I haven't been brainwahed by that evil yellow rat and his brotherin.

Message to George Lucas: Have the Force Unleashed come to the Wii with online, and awsome jedi saber skillz like the movies. If it was half as good as Jedi Academy II (best Star Wars game, ever!), then we'd be in for a treat. Plus, starting 08' Nintendo will allow it's 3rd party developers to make online games! w00t, took them long enough, only half a year to go!

Message 2 to George Lucas: Make the game be half as good as TP, plus online (*cough* up to 16 people=maybe a little high for Nintendo), and it'll be one of the most played Wii online games.

Force Unleashed does look great. I hope the Wii gets some Star Wars love eventually, since the Wii controller is perfectly suited for lightsaber duels.

Yotube=how I viewed all of them. It is a pretty sick series, definitely a lot like the ever awsome Samurai Jak. The story actually makes it make sense, just type in Clone Wars Episode (ie: 1, 22), and it should pop up.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll do just that.

Sounds good to me, and how about as another Snake outfit, he's his old form like in MGS4. Plus giving him a beard would be pretty funny and neat as well. But he should get a diffrent color outfit, how about Pink, lol to show off his manlyness=???

MGS3 Big Boss costume: a fair addition since the character appeared in the old NES games and all they would really have to do is add an eyepatch.

MGS4 Old Snake: Not too sure, since that form is exclusive to the PS3.

Pink Snake?!?!: *glares at Johnknight1* No. Never speak of this again.

You have your alter ego, Chief on your side! Any you don't like Shiek/Zelda, shame on you!

Plus Clover, the division of Capcom that made him was closed after the production of Okami, so he's got about as close to 0% as you can get. Well, next to Plusle and Minun at least.

Paris Hilton for Brawl! Who needs online multiplayer when you can beat up a mindless wierdo! Abraham Lincoln will totally be awosme, and we could have the ultimate President showdown! Washington vs. Jefferson, Licoln vs. Roosevelt (FDR), Kenedy (JFK) vs. Clinton, and Reagon vs. Truman! Plus Bush and Bush vs. Adams and Adams=the ultimate team battle! Now who wouldn't pay money to see that=???

How about some of the world famous Canadian Prime minister’s? We could have the ultimate showdown between:

Founding Father John A. Macdonald - known for creating the first international railway and for spending most of his term in office completely drunk!

Mackenzie King – served longer than any leader in North America. He is also famous for seeking political advice from his dead dog’s ghost (I kid thee not).

Pierre Trudeau - who introduced the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and more impressively had an entire airport named after him!

Our current Prime Minister Steven Harper - Nothing to remarkable about him, other than the fact that he has heat vision (okay, not really).

Pretty exciting stuff, eh? I’ve decided to stop taking about Smash Bros on this thread and only talk about Canadian Politics. You guys are cool with that, right?

Spire's 1 headshot kill pwns me everytime! However, I use Samus, Kraden, and Spire, so I think I'm good off. Hope all of them (or some of them at least) are playable in MP3, assuming it has online=better be better than MP2's multiplayer=just like a mini-game you only occasionally play. Hope we get a MP1/2+Fusion and Zero Mission like story+MP Hunter's awsome online with MP3. *fingers crossed*

I would be happy to see Prime 3 have Hunters-caliber online multiplayer, but if that were the case I would expect it to have been delayed even longer. The fact that we’re getting an August release makes me think that the game will consist entirely of a lengthy, superbly polished single player experience. And since the Wii will be getting both Brawl and Batteleon Wars online, that’s fine with me.

I mentioned Resetti is better for Brawl than Nook IMO. Seriously, there should be a level where you fight on Nintendo systems (sorta like Big Blue) as they scroll by, and if you hit that reset button...well our favorite angry mole pops up, or that one random quiet one!

Resetti is awesome, but Nook is a more iconic character for the series in my view. Still, if Resetti did make it, you wouldn’t hear me complaining.

“RESSETING IS BAD!!! DON”T DO IT!!!!”

Much was wasted, but I bet a fight scene between Jango Fett and Mace Windu was cut because Episode II was too long=the longest Star Wars movie. O well, that fight with Dooku and the Clone Wars scenes are intensely amazing! It doesn't get much better than that! Or maybe it was a real life recreation of how Samuel L. Jackson pwns all=???

Watch these. They make the lightsaber duels in the movies look really lame in comparison!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NE5elL30w4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-is63goeBgc

Twilight Princess>Ocarina of Time=A Link to the Past>Majora's Mask=Wind Waker>Link's Awakening>tLOZ>Zelda II>Four Swords>Four Swords Adventures. Need to play more Minish Cap, Oracles of Seasons, and Oracles of Ages=too true. Seriously though, the only LOZ game I beat more than WW is tLOZ (too many times to be healthy), but I've played WW by far the most. Still, it would be awsome to get a Wii release of OOT, MM, and WW with the Wii remote and numchuck=uber pwnage!

I agree for the most part, though I personally prefer MM over OoT. It was the first Zelda I played and it will forever have a special place in my heart.

Ask if he's played Superman 64=most (myself included) consider it to be the worst game ever made! Thank god I didn't buy it on the N64=almost did=saw my friend play it and there was no camera, Superman was suppose to be able to pick up cars (in which if he touched them he glitched up or it didn't work), and he was suppose to be able to fly (in which while flying the control stick only makes you go left or right, sorta like walking!). If you think that game is the best game ever, you have no soul!

If you want to play a REAL super hero game, try Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction.

http://www.gamespot.com/gamecube/action/theincrediblehulk/index.html

tLOZ introduced us to saving the game, a world map larger than any before it, multiple weapons (basically impossible to make then), and a second quest! Zelda II is the birth of action RPG's as we know them, ALTTP was the first game to have a alternate world or dimension (the Dark World), and had more items than you could count with your fingers, LA totally remade the combat system, OOT was the perfect 3rd person translation, that is attempted to be copied after by nearly every 3rd person game to date.

MM brought a mask system that is revolutionary, a challenging timed game, and a very Empire Strikes Back like story. WW introuduced a revampted combat system and combat commands, FS and FSA brought four person play, and 4 person control to play, MC brought a intresting shrinking and growing system back, and TP...well we should all know that by now!

Well said. Few games have revolutionized the industry the same way Zelda has.

It's actually not as simple as saying either is the main character of the game. Neither are playable throughout the entire game, and Ike doesn't make an appearance for the first half of it while Micaiah is absent for a while. There are even parts where neither are playable (and the central character is Elincia or Tibarn), and there are times were several characters fall under the die=game over catergory, even if they aren't at later points in the plot. That said, ultimately all characters reach the point where they can be killed off, besides Ike and Micaiah, (yes, even Sothe apparently), so they definately seem to be the two most important characters in the game. And from what I can tell, Micaiah seems incredibly important to the plot, probably even more so than Ike.

Agreed. The simple solution would be to have both of them in Brawl.

Seriously, the hammer could not work like that. He always carries it around and he'd only use it for a B? Next you'll suggest we take his hat away too you bully!

Kirby also always carries around his hammer – when he absorbs certain enemies.

His hat can stay. I’m not COMPLETELY cold and heartless, just mostly.

Yes, but Kirby doesn't really do any attacking before inhaling people in his games so that point is moot. Dx3 (easier to type than Dedede, nice idea) behaves quite different when inhaling/exhaling. He obviously can't absorb, that's one, he shoots them out, that's two, he sometimes shoots out stars, that's three, he can't keep them in his mouth for more than two seconds, that's four and finally, number five, he has only exhaled when on the ground/floating a few inches off it. There's also the point that his floating is less controlled because of his weight. I'd say that's enough for it to be an un-clonifiable or at the least very hard to clone move, unless you want to sacrifice the novelty of Dx3 which is unacceptable.

Well, Kirby can also spit out his enemies in Melee – though it’s not all that useful.

Regardless, I still think any differences can be solved by adding some unique attributes to Kirby’s moveset – much like Luigi’s jumping and movement have a completely unique feel to them and he also has some unique moves – like his green rocket. I think part of the problem people have with my idea is that “clone” is taken to mean a straight Doc-esque copy – whereas I’m just proposing that they modify some (perhaps even most) of Kirby’s moves wherever it makes sense to do so.

They have small similarities. A weaker hammer was given to Kirby, which is very obviously unsuitable for. Kirby's cutter would also look humiliatingly bad for Dx3, unless turned into some kind of Bowser-like suicide slam that would be useless.

Dx3’s hammer could simply be made more powerful, and if Kirby’s up-B is incompatible with Dx3’s they can alwys give him his own – just as I suggested they do with the Black Knight.

Excuse me, what? I think we should clone the un-important characters, the ones that are add-ons, not the most popular. It's not about how similar one new character could be to another, the Smash team are aiming to make a game with no clones. Cloning is there as a convenience to save time if two are the same body structure. Dx3 is larger than Kirby, so the process would be lost on him. Again, he is the most requested character for 'Brawl and will have been one of the first developed for.

Whether or not someone is a clone shouldn’t be judged based on their popularity, but on whether or not they are similar in abilities or appearance to another character.

Case in point: in Melee, Ganondorf was a clone while G&W was given a unique moveset.

As for size, I don’t think it’s an issue (they don’t have to design a different moveset for all the characters in Melee for when they eat a giant mushroom). His different shape, though might make it more challenging.

I don't hate clones. I do, however, feel clones are necessary. But you seem to love the idea of clones! The developers are going out of their way to de-clone 'Brawl, as with 'Melee, and will make as many characters origional as they can. It's only when with constricted time you get clones. So why would they plan clone characters? I'm sure there's the idea in their head so they can laze around the house all day and go to work and create a small, blue Kirby with Dx3's hat, but it isn't going to happen.

Planning to include clones ahead of time just makes sense to me. The team must have realized that they have X number of hours to complete the game, so prioritizing which characters are unique and/or important enough to be given a unique moveset and which can be cloned seems only logical.

1. That makes sense except for one thing. The vast majority of FE games are Japan Only. By not putting anyone from the Japanese FE, you're cutting out over half of FE's history. Are you saying that the first 6 games in the series are unimportant to FE fans?

Most people seem to think that, but it is a myth. In fact, the vast majority of FE fans (ie: people who buy Fire Emblem games) are not Japanese. All games released internationally (the two GBA games and PoR) have sold far more in North America, Europe, Austrailia, and Asia combined than were sold in Japan.

I’m not saying that we should disregard the Japanese audience. On the contrary, I have argued against including GBA FE characters just as strongly since they are from games that were unpopular in Japan. I’m just saying that since very few FE characters are going to make it, they should all be from the game that was popular in Japan, North America and everywhere else: Path of Radiance.

2.Having ONE of it's characters representing the NEW FE is fair, but you can't ignore that FE has only recently been internationalized and that the majority of the series were never seen by people out of Japan. If it weren't for Marth, we never would've known about this great series

Marth’s place on the Melee roster was well deserved, no question. But now that the Fe series has a worldwide audience, I suspect that only characters from games that appeal to that worldwide audience will get in.

3. Marth could simply use his current moveset while Ike gets a new one. If we only get two FE characters, we shouldn't hope for a clone (see how that did in melee). We should get two characters with much different playstyles.

If that clone is the Black Knight, than that’s what I’m hoping for. Regardless, if we get two characters with unique play styles then including two sword fighters would be just plain boring. Miciaiah would be a far more unique addition than Marth.

4. Ike isn't the same type of fighter as Marth. It looks as if you think anyone with a sword fights the same way. Ike is a mercenary who has a crude style of swordplay that focuses on the force with which he swings his sword. His technique is only meant to conserve energy while his sword makes crushing blows. Does that sound anything like Marth? No. Not to mention the Falcion weighs 3 while Ragnell weighs 16. In comparison Ragnell is a beast to wield.

I’m not saying they would be identical. But just having two sword fighters with different sized swords and different fighting techniques would inevitably be more similar than a sword fighter (Ike) and a magic user (Miciaiah). That’s all I’m saying.

5. I think they should put GoD Ike because it will be releasing around that time this year. It's not just the hair, their outfits, and even size are different. Not to mention Ike is like 19, while Marth is 15 or so.

I agree that GoD Ike would make a far better addition.

Even with different heights and ages, they would still be more similar than any two characters in Smash History where one of them wasn’t a clone. Even a clone like BK would be more unique, since a slow and heavy sword fighter with a teleport is something completely new to the series.

6. Can't you count both? Many FE fans only got into the series because they wanted to see where Marth was from. The better a character he was, the more people wanted to see where he came from. Many FE fans outside of Japan were Marth fans before they even dabbled in the series, and remained Marth fans afterword. We owe Marth for opening our eyes to FE and without him, we wouldn't even know Ike or Miciaiah, and would've never even gotten this game off the shelves. Marth is the one who made it possible to have FE fans.

Yes, Marth’s popularity was a major factor in FE’s success. But now that there are FE characters that we can actually play, Marth is no longer needed. Don’t get me wrong: I respect Marth as a character for influencing Nintendo’s decision to bring FE to North America. I just think it’s time for him to pass on the torch to Ike.

7. True, but she doesn't lead your army for over half the game (including the last part where all your armies come together). She is important for the storyline, but plays second seat to Ike overall.

. I have no reason to doubt you, so you’re probably right. At any rate, I’ll know for sure when GoD is released internationally.

8. It says it on Marth's trophy.

Fair enough. I’ll take your word for it.

9. Ike is representing the international FE games. All 3 of them (4 if you include GoD).
Marth is representing the first 6 FE games and he was in 2 of them. Marth represents more FE games than Ike, so Marth represents more of FE than Ike.

Your forgetting that the Japanese don’t categorize the games based on whether they’ve been released in North America. They’ve had access to ALL the games from the beginning, so I can’t imagine they lump the GBA games and PoR into the same category just because they had American releases. It’s also worth noting that Ike was the most requested character on Sakurai’s Japanese poll – and most of the other characters were also from PoR (Black Knight, Mia and Soren respectively) while Sigurd got only a single nomination and was the only Japanese-only character.

10. But the majority of FE games are Japan only and they still need to be represented. Including reps from only 1/3 of the series is not fair to the FE fans who like the first 2/3 of the series.

Ike starred in the most recent games in a series where the majority of the stories are self contained – so he represents the NES and SNES games just as much as he does the GBA games.

Marth was arguably one of the most unique characters in melee (dispite him having a clone) because his style is so different and flexible. Marth fits into almost every style of play while maintaining the elegant swordsman feel. That is what MADE melee for me. Marth swings his sword like he's waving his arm and his grace is complemented by his appearence. Being gracefull doesn't make you a wuss. *stares at Battosai the Manslayer from Rurouni Kenshin* IMO it's what makes a swordsman well, a swordsman and Ike is definately no swordsman.

Being graceful may not make Marth a wuss, but wearing a tiara does.
In any case, if you don’t like Ike’s moveset you can always play as Metaknight if Pit. Chances are one of the many swordfighters in the game with suit your play style.

WiseGuy, this is the best brawl roster prediction I've ever seen. Pretty much everything you said is exactly what I was thinking. I completely agree with you on Olimar and heck, every other character on this flippin' list! I've been to a bunch of other web sites and this one is by far the best and in my opinion, the most accurate. 11/10

(Hope this makes a good first post...)

Thanks a bunch Net17 for that strong endorsement. I’m glad you liked my predictions.

I hope you stick around, because other people might think I opened a new account just so I could give myself an 11/10.

Diddy as a DK clone? Surely you jest?

Agreed. Diddy as a clone is utter lunacy in my view. And I’m seen as the most clone-happy guy on Smashboards.

 

[Devastlian]

Gotta agree with Ferro De Lupe here. The entire point of having Diddy along when he was introduced in DKC was to be a counterpoint to DK's abilities (small and quick versus brute strength). With so many "I'm gonna pummel you into the ground" type moves that DK has, I don't see Diddy having the same effect.

But having that kind of foil is part of the whole purpose of clones; to take a moveset and give a different take on it. Making a smaller, faster DK with less range isn't that out there. Just make his tail make an after hit for some moves, give more vertical range on his up B, make the neutral B into a lower angled Pound that's chargeable, down B into a single pound, forward B can have normal 45 degree knockback unless you hit with the bill of his hat in which the knockback's random. All the A moves fit, too.

 

[Stryks]

What is it with this thread and its ridiculously (sp?) long posts??

 

[Wiseguy]

But having that kind of foil is part of the whole purpose of clones; to take a moveset and give a different take on it. Making a smaller, faster DK with less range isn't that out there. Just make his tail make an after hit for some moves, give more vertical range on his up B, make the neutral B into a lower angled Pound that's chargeable, down B into a single pound, forward B can have normal 45 degree knockback unless you hit with the bill of his hat in which the knockback's random. All the A moves fit, too.

Could it be done? Maybe. Should it? No way. Diddy deserves a unique moveset complete with kartwheels, peanut shooters, a jetpack and his trusty guitar.

What is it with this thread and its ridiculously (sp?) long posts??

I'm not sure, but it's because we tend to cover a wider range of topics here than most threads.

Also you used the correct spelling.

 

[Devastlian]

Could it be done? Maybe. Should it? No way. Diddy deserves a unique moveset complete with kartwheels, peanut shooters, a jetpack and his trusty guitar.

They could give Donkey Kong his roll, his Coconut Cannon, his jets from DK Jet, and his bongos, too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy could very well have the same moves Donkey Kong has...Donkey Kong only uses one move he used in his games...the rest are generic hand to hand type moves that anyone could use, really.

You really really disapoint me with this comment, you really do. I'd accept it from any newbie, but a veteran SWF member?? Be ashamed, and feel pround at the same time cause now I'm about to spend a whole quarter on this post while I'm tired as hell... >_<

NO Diddy won't ever be a DK clone! Atleast, not a full clone since no way Diddy could use most of the moves DK can. DK's moves aren't all that generic, infact just look at his B moves. All couldn't easly be preformed without such a huge musculair body like DK has.

His Forward B and Down B are good examples. DK's Forward B is a pretty useless move, but the move shows a lot of punch atleast. It's so strong, that it traps DK's enemy into the ground. Logical, since DK's head is huge. DK's Down B shakes up the whole ground, this is a move litarly taken from Donkey Kong Country.

Now going over to DKC.

DKC where very inovate platform games, but the biggest feature where the tag teams from different characters. In DKC1 you'd have Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, two almost opposite characters. Whereas DK could easly destroy any enemy in his path, Diddy had to have it from his agility, speed and high jumps. The differences between the characters where so deep, that even swimming speed and carrying barrels and crates depend a lot on which character you use. Diddy for example has trouble lifting barrels and crates, while DK lifts them up with ease just like in Smash where he was the only character capable of moving freely with the barrel and crate items.

Also a huge difference between DK and Diddy was that DK could smash items from the ground with his Hand Slap move, a move that got transfered into DK's moveset in both Smash games. Diddy couldn't do the Hand Slap, but he got a faster roll, the infamous cartwheel.

So simply, if Diddy became a DK clone they'd had one of the DK moves open and a pretty important one to Donkey Kong since it was the only move directly translated from DKC. And can you really see Diddy smashing Bowser into the solid ground with his little head? Do you see Diddy charging up a punch with his weak arms? And even better; do you see Diddy carrying barrels, crates and characters around just like DK does??

I don't think so.

Besides, every character with a tail besides Bowser used it into their moveset. Diddy's tail was THE source of most of his moves in Donkey Kong 64, a game where DK and Diddy even varried more since the game really relied on switching between the 5 Kongs... So do you think that Diddy doesn't get to use his tail while he by far used it more in his actual games than let's say Pikachu or Fox!? No instead, you suggest that Diddy should use his arms most like DK does. That's the same as saying that Pikachu shouldn't use his electricity and rather just fight like Donkey Kong since really ALL characters could use his moves right?? >_<

So in conclusion; Diddy WILL have an original moveset. I could go much more in detail if I wanted but this seems to do it more than enough.

 

[Smady]

Kirby also always carries around his hammer – when he absorbs certain enemies.

His hat can stay. I’m not COMPLETELY cold and heartless, just mostly.

T'is not the same. Dedede doesn't change like Kirby, he's never seen without the hammer. Most of the time, Kirby is not seen with any particular weapon. Don't be silly.

Well, Kirby can also spit out his enemies in Melee – though it’s not all that useful.

He spits them out a few feet.

Regardless, I still think any differences can be solved by adding some unique attributes to Kirby’s moveset – much like Luigi’s jumping and movement have a completely unique feel to them and he also has some unique moves – like his green rocket. I think part of the problem people have with my idea is that “clone” is taken to mean a straight Doc-esque copy – whereas I’m just proposing that they modify some (perhaps even most) of Kirby’s moves wherever it makes sense to do so.

Well, he's not a clone then. If you want a good Dx3, you can't have him as a clone of Kirby and you know it. What's the point of sacrificing anything on either side? Luigi is Mario in a sense, the differences were made as they went along. Dx3 became more like Kirby in one game, and not that much. Tiny similarities, poor pessimistic Wisey.

Dx3’s hammer could simply be made more powerful, and if Kirby’s up-B is incompatible with Dx3’s they can alwys give him his own – just as I suggested they do with the Black Knight.

More powerful? It needs to be his A, it's his weapon. It's like saying that the Ice Climbers should use their hammers as one of their B moves. The argument is the same, they could just have one more powerful attack. What would Dx3 use to attack anyways? His head? His one free hand?

Whether or not someone is a clone shouldn’t be judged based on their popularity, but on whether or not they are similar in abilities or appearance to another character.

Case in point: in Melee, Ganondorf was a clone while G&W was given a unique moveset.

Not really. Marth was one of the popular choices for 'Melee and he got his own moveset. Same with Mewtwo. So was Zelda. You could argue that Marth could of been given Link's moveset, Mewtwo and Zelda shared a moveset and numerous others have been the same. Ganondorf is now getting a new moveset, so obviously he wasn't meant to be a clone initially, and they already had three new Zelda characters to focus on. G&W and ICs had no-one who was anywhere near like them anyway, and they also needed their own moveset to make a bigger impact. Clones = low impact, small disappointment with popular characters.

Would you like an IC-clone Dx3?

As for size, I don’t think it’s an issue (they don’t have to design a different moveset for all the characters in Melee for when they eat a giant mushroom). His different shape, though might make it more challenging.

His size has to be in proportion with Kirby at least a bit. He needs to be bigger, about the height of Marth and pretty **** fat too. Size matters in comparison with people in their own franchise, but everyone is around the same H times W.

Planning to include clones ahead of time just makes sense to me. The team must have realized that they have X number of hours to complete the game, so prioritizing which characters are unique and/or important enough to be given a unique moveset and which can be cloned seems only logical.

Plan ahead to save time? Clones are a time thing, aren't they? The last characters on the list are chosen to be clones to save time. I'm sure there were plans for an original moveset with Ganondorf with that sword, but given there was a semi-clone, two new characters in one and twenty or so other characters to design for as well I think we can understand if Sakurai had to make sacrifices. Whether I'm talking gibberish now, I don't know.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

My noncontroversial character list:
Mario-
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Shadow Mario/Bowser Jr.*
6. Geno

Wario-
7. Wario*

Yoshi-
8. Yoshi

DK-
9. Donkey Kong
10. Diddy Kong*

Pokemon-
11. Pikachu
12. Jigglypuff
13. Meowth*
14. Deoxys*
15. Lucario*

Zelda-
16. Link
17. WW Link
18. Zelda
19. Midna/Wolf Link
20. Ganondorf

Star Fox-
21. Fox
22. Krystal
23. Wolf

Kirby-
24. Kirby
25. Meta Knight
26. King Dedede

Metroid-
27. Samus/ZSS
28. Ridley

Fire Emblem-
29. Ike
30. Lyn

Kid Icarus-
31. Pit

F-Zero-
32. Captain Falcon
33. Samurai Goroh

Earthbound-
34. Ness
35. Poo/Paula/Jeff/Kumatora (don't know enough to decide)

Pikmin-
36. Captain Olimar

Ice Climber-
37. Nana&Popo

Metal Gear Solid-
38. Snake

Sonic-
39. Sonic

Rayman-
40. Rayman

Willing to change the FE and Earthbound lists, because I know practically nothing about them.

 

[Devastlian]

...

Diddy's moves would have different effects, though, like all the clones do.

I'm not even seriously saying that Diddy should be a clone; just that, if King Dedede can be a Kirby clone, Diddy Kong can be a Donkey Kong clone. Neither of them should be. There's enough stuff from their collection of appearances to give them both original movesets and they're popular enough to be first picks.

 

[boricuaboy]

Why doesnt anyone ever put King boo or boo on their list.

 

[King Xander]

Here's some stuff I just wanted to say

1.Wow, to me it looks like you took your time and maybe did some research, unlike every other person with a list.

2.I couldn't agree with you more about Kicking Roy and Marth out.Especially Marth.Ike is the person to replace him.Perfect person to do just that.And maybe he could have a move set similar to Marth's, because when I play as him, I can get in the zone with his Aerial moves. Plus, everyone who has heard of Marth thinks FE is about him, and he is the main character.Uhhh, if I can remember right, he was only in two of the seven games released in the series, both games in Japan.(Maybe he was important in the first two games, but it's time to pass the baton to a newcomer!)Plus, Black Knight would be awesome!

3. Pichu needs to go away....stop the madness...

4.Don't you think that there would be too many clones?

5.I was thinking there would be someone from RE 4, maybe Leon, cause that's popular.

By the way, I agree with your stuff almost 100%

 

[Devastlian]

Why doesnt anyone ever put King boo or boo on their list.

Because they have brains.

 

[YosterDragon]

Diddy's moves would have different effects, though, like all the clones do.

I'm not even seriously saying that Diddy should be a clone; just that, if King Dedede can be a Kirby clone, Diddy Kong can be a Donkey Kong clone. Neither of them should be. There's enough stuff from their collection of appearances to give them both original movesets and they're popular enough to be first picks.

Glad you brought that up. I suppose there is a difference between the ability to make a character a clone and whether or not said character should be a clone.

Really desired characters like Diddy and Dedede probably shouldn't be clones, even Luigified clones, despite the fact that they could be. Clones should (in my humble opinion) be left to the characters that flesh out a series' character count as opposed to truly representing said series. Characters such as Samurai Goroh, Dark Samus, any of the FE characters that aren't Ike or Marth (seriously, it seems that nobody cares who the second FE rep is--just so long as either Ike or Marth is there ), etc.

 

[Wiseguy]

My latest update is now complete! I encouage everyone to look at my latest changes to the runnersup list. I'm try and return to my "one character per day" squedule hense forth.

They could give Donkey Kong his roll, his Coconut Cannon, his jets from DK Jet, and his bongos, too.

They sure could. And I'd be all for it if DK's moveset wasn't already a staple of the Smash Bros series.

You really really disapoint me with this comment, you really do. I'd accept it from any newbie, but a veteran SWF member?? Be ashamed, and feel pround at the same time cause now I'm about to spend a whole quarter on this post while I'm tired as hell... >_<

NO Diddy won't ever be a DK clone! Atleast, not a full clone since no way Diddy could use most of the moves DK can. DK's moves aren't all that generic, infact just look at his B moves. All couldn't easly be preformed without such a huge musculair body like DK has.

His Forward B and Down B are good examples. DK's Forward B is a pretty useless move, but the move shows a lot of punch atleast. It's so strong, that it traps DK's enemy into the ground. Logical, since DK's head is huge. DK's Down B shakes up the whole ground, this is a move litarly taken from Donkey Kong Country.

Now going over to DKC.

DKC where very inovate platform games, but the biggest feature where the tag teams from different characters. In DKC1 you'd have Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, two almost opposite characters. Whereas DK could easly destroy any enemy in his path, Diddy had to have it from his agility, speed and high jumps. The differences between the characters where so deep, that even swimming speed and carrying barrels and crates depend a lot on which character you use. Diddy for example has trouble lifting barrels and crates, while DK lifts them up with ease just like in Smash where he was the only character capable of moving freely with the barrel and crate items.

Also a huge difference between DK and Diddy was that DK could smash items from the ground with his Hand Slap move, a move that got transfered into DK's moveset in both Smash games. Diddy couldn't do the Hand Slap, but he got a faster roll, the infamous cartwheel.

So simply, if Diddy became a DK clone they'd had one of the DK moves open and a pretty important one to Donkey Kong since it was the only move directly translated from DKC. And can you really see Diddy smashing Bowser into the solid ground with his little head? Do you see Diddy charging up a punch with his weak arms? And even better; do you see Diddy carrying barrels, crates and characters around just like DK does??

I don't think so.

Besides, every character with a tail besides Bowser used it into their moveset. Diddy's tail was THE source of most of his moves in Donkey Kong 64, a game where DK and Diddy even varried more since the game really relied on switching between the 5 Kongs... So do you think that Diddy doesn't get to use his tail while he by far used it more in his actual games than let's say Pikachu or Fox!? No instead, you suggest that Diddy should use his arms most like DK does. That's the same as saying that Pikachu shouldn't use his electricity and rather just fight like Donkey Kong since really ALL characters could use his moves right?? >_<

So in conclusion; Diddy WILL have an original moveset. I could go much more in detail if I wanted but this seems to do it more than enough.

That was a superbly constructed argument - and no wonder. Who better to attest to the greatness of Diddy Kong than DIDDY KONG! It's an honor to have the most famous monkey in videogames on my thread, Diddy. I appreciate you taking some time out of your busy squedule of collecting banannas and throwing barrels to shoot the breeze with mere mortal such as ourselves.

T'is not the same. Dedede doesn't change like Kirby, he's never seen without the hammer. Most of the time, Kirby is not seen with any particular weapon. Don't be silly.

Okay, but doesn't Dx3 sometimes use attacks other than his hammer? I seem to recall him using boxing gloves in the original Kirby GB game, but is has been a while.

He spits them out a few feet.

Yeah, so take that same pricple and increase the speed and velocity with which they can be spit out and you've got Dx3's B move.

Well, he's not a clone then. If you want a good Dx3, you can't have him as a clone of Kirby and you know it. What's the point of sacrificing anything on either side? Luigi is Mario in a sense, the differences were made as they went along. Dx3 became more like Kirby in one game, and not that much. Tiny similarities, poor pessimistic Wisey.

Not a clone in the purest sense of the word, Smashy - but a clone in the same way that Luigi is a clone. Different wire frame, same moveset (only heavily modified).

More powerful? It needs to be his A, it's his weapon. It's like saying that the Ice Climbers should use their hammers as one of their B moves. The argument is the same, they could just have one more powerful attack. What would Dx3 use to attack anyways? His head? His one free hand?

Yeah, he could use his head and free hand. Take a character like Samus: did she even resort to punching and kicking her enemies? No, that was a change they made without drawing from her game of origin. They could potentially do the same for Dx3.

Not really. Marth was one of the popular choices for 'Melee and he got his own moveset. Same with Mewtwo. So was Zelda. You could argue that Marth could of been given Link's moveset, Mewtwo and Zelda shared a moveset and numerous others have been the same. Ganondorf is now getting a new moveset, so obviously he wasn't meant to be a clone initially, and they already had three new Zelda characters to focus on. G&W and ICs had no-one who was anywhere near like them anyway, and they also needed their own moveset to make a bigger impact. Clones = low impact, small disappointment with popular characters.

Sure, popular characters generally have unique movesets. However, Luigi and Ganondorf are proof that there can be exceptions to this rule.

Would you like an IC-clone Dx3?

I would rather the ICs be replaced by a different retro character like Geno, so no. But IF they did return, I would still consider a Kirby clone more likely since they similarities beyond just having a hammer (sucking, floating jump, from the same series, ect.)

His size has to be in proportion with Kirby at least a bit. He needs to be bigger, about the height of Marth and pretty **** fat too. Size matters in comparison with people in their own franchise, but everyone is around the same H times W.

No disagreements here, I just don't think his height rules him out as a Kirby clone.

Plan ahead to save time? Clones are a time thing, aren't they? The last characters on the list are chosen to be clones to save time. I'm sure there were plans for an original moveset with Ganondorf with that sword, but given there was a semi-clone, two new characters in one and twenty or so other characters to design for as well I think we can understand if Sakurai had to make sacrifices. Whether I'm talking gibberish now, I don't know.

No, I understand what your saying. But by planning ahead to include clones, they can make sure that the characters that are clones are logical in the sense that that they share characteristics with the character they are copied from. That way we can avoid head scratchers like the decision to include Ganondorf as a Falcon clone. To summarize: including clones is inevitable, so by planning to do it they can make sure it is done right.

My noncontroversial character list:
Mario-
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Shadow Mario/Bowser Jr.*
6. Geno

Wario-
7. Wario*

Yoshi-
8. Yoshi

DK-
9. Donkey Kong
10. Diddy Kong*

Pokemon-
11. Pikachu
12. Jigglypuff
13. Meowth*
14. Deoxys*
15. Lucario*

Zelda-
16. Link
17. WW Link
18. Zelda
19. Midna/Wolf Link
20. Ganondorf

Star Fox-
21. Fox
22. Krystal
23. Wolf

Kirby-
24. Kirby
25. Meta Knight
26. King Dedede

Metroid-
27. Samus/ZSS
28. Ridley

Fire Emblem-
29. Ike
30. Lyn

Kid Icarus-
31. Pit

F-Zero-
32. Captain Falcon
33. Samurai Goroh

Earthbound-
34. Ness
35. Poo/Paula/Jeff/Kumatora (don't know enough to decide)

Pikmin-
36. Captain Olimar

Ice Climber-
37. Nana&Popo

Metal Gear Solid-
38. Snake

Sonic-
39. Sonic

Rayman-
40. Rayman

Willing to change the FE and Earthbound lists, because I know practically nothing about them.

Solid list and awesome alias, pineappleupsetshark.

While Lyn would certainly make a good addition, the unpopularity of her game in Japan makes her pretty unlikely in my opinion. I'd change her for someone from the universally popular FE: Path of Radiance (like the Black Knight) or it's upcoming sequel Godess of Dawn (like Miciaiah), but that's just me.


The only qualm I have with your list is that transformations like Shadow Mario and Zamus count as characters - so your actual total is 42. All things considered, 9/10.

Diddy's moves would have different effects, though, like all the clones do.

I'm not even seriously saying that Diddy should be a clone; just that, if King Dedede can be a Kirby clone, Diddy Kong can be a Donkey Kong clone. Neither of them should be. There's enough stuff from their collection of appearances to give them both original movesets and they're popular enough to be first picks.

Fair enough, but even at his most original I still think that Dedede would be pretty similar to Kirby. His floaty jump and his sucking ability both scream Kirby clone, the way I see it. Diddy, at his most original, would be nothing at all like DK.

Why doesnt anyone ever put King boo or boo on their list.

Well, he's no nearly as important to the Mario series as someone like Bowser Jr. and not nearly as awesome as Geno. Also, Mario and its spinnoffs already dominate the Smash roster so I don't see Boo as very likely.

Maybe he'll appear as a stage hazzard in a Luigi's Mansion themed map.

Here's some stuff I just wanted to say

1.Wow, to me it looks like you took your time and maybe did some research, unlike every other person with a list.

2.I couldn't agree with you more about Kicking Roy and Marth out.Especially Marth.Ike is the person to replace him.Perfect person to do just that.And maybe he could have a move set similar to Marth's, because when I play as him, I can get in the zone with his Aerial moves. Plus, everyone who has heard of Marth thinks FE is about him, and he is the main character.Uhhh, if I can remember right, he was only in two of the seven games released in the series, both games in Japan.(Maybe he was important in the first two games, but it's time to pass the baton to a newcomer!)Plus, Black Knight would be awesome!

3. Pichu needs to go away....stop the madness...

4.Don't you think that there would be too many clones?

5.I was thinking there would be someone from RE 4, maybe Leon, cause that's popular.

By the way, I agree with your stuff almost 100%

Wow, we're seeing alot of newcomers today. Welcome to Smashboards, King Xander. Nice avitar by the way.

1) Thanks. I did do a bit of research for series I knew little about, but it's mostly just my geeky ramblings on videogames I've played.

2) Awesome! Another Black Knight fan! I can't believe more people don't realize how awesome he is.

3) Agreed.

4) Well, having fewer clones means that we would have fewer characters in the game. I personally have no problem with clones (I consider characters like Doc, Falco and Ganondorf to be some of the most fun characters in Melee) though some may feel differently.

5) Interesting choice. I've never played a RE game before, but with RE4 coming to the Wii this month Ifigure now is as good a time as any. I'll play Leon's game and include him on my runnersup list if I think he's worthy.

Anyway, thanks for the compliments. Feel free to post your own character roster here if you want to take up my 40 character challenge.

To restate the rules, make a list with 40 characters or less. Blones count for 1/3 a character slot and transfromations like Zamus count as characters if they have a unique moveset.

Glad you brought that up. I suppose there is a difference between the ability to make a character a clone and whether or not said character should be a clone.

Really desired characters like Diddy and Dedede probably shouldn't be clones, even Luigified clones, despite the fact that they could be. Clones should (in my humble opinion) be left to the characters that flesh out a series' character count as opposed to truly representing said series. Characters such as Samurai Goroh, Dark Samus, any of the FE characters that aren't Ike or Marth (seriously, it seems that nobody cares who the second FE rep is--just so long as either Ike or Marth is there ), etc.

Yeah, I can appreciate that sentiment. I take cloning a little further in my list than most people do because I want to see as many total characters as possible, but I can still see the apeal in giving unique movesets to characters like Dx3. Either way, I'm be happy to see the royal penguin join the ranks of the Nintendo elite in Smash Bros.

 

[Net17]

Clones are a big part of the game. But too many of them and everyone would go nuts. Pichu, Doc and Falco should be taken out. Ganondorf should be made into his own character and young Link should be "Luigified". Although I love falco, he should be replaced by another StarFox character.

To cover another topic:

Dedede I think has no chance of being a kirby clone. He's bigger, always carries a hammer and, although he can vacuum people in himself like kirby, he cant copy abilities.

 

[Wiseguy]

Clones are a big part of the game. But too many of them and everyone would go nuts. Pichu, Doc and Falco should be taken out. Ganondorf should be made into his own character and young Link should be "Luigified". Although I love falco, he should be replaced by another StarFox character.

To cover another topif:

Dedede I think has no chance of being a kirby clone. He's bigger, always carries a hammer and, although he can vacuum people in himself like kirby, he cant copy abilities.

Yeah, I'm all for the old clones being cut - but I also think including some clones to increase the total number of characters is a good idea. After the inital phase of complaining dies down, I suspect the clones will become accepted just as Falco and Doc were.

Yeah, alot of people don't seem to like the idea of a cloned Dx3. While the character has distinct differences from Kirby, I think they share enough in common that he COULD be a clone if they get pressed for time and want to include 45 characters.

Still, I'm glad we disagreed on somthing. You just put to rest any perceptions that you and I are the same person.

 

[kerploplesteesh]

your list is down to earth and realistic, but nerfing fox? booooooo booooooo

 

[Loooooni]

I agree with most but the one im hoping is true is Geno I give your list 9/10 because i dont like the earth bound additions (never heard of ness before SSB for 64) and i think the only pokemon it needs are pikachu and jiggilypuff

P.S Good list

 

[Drascin]

While Lyn would certainly make a good addition, the unpopularity of her game in Japan makes her pretty unlikely in my opinion. I'd change her for someone from the universally popular FE: Path of Radiance (like the Black Knight) or it's upcoming sequel Godess of Dawn (like Miciaiah), but that's just me.

You're probably right, which makes Drascin a sad panda in snow (despite we being 35ºC around here). Lady Lyndis > Ike, IMO, but the Japanese's dislike for the GBA games makes her imposible. Dammit, Sakurai, the Japanese already shape the list enough, throw us europeans a bone, the GBA games were bestsellers around here! She would also be nice to have if we're talking movesets. Ike would take care of the "Hulk smash!" type of swordsman, while Lyn would be fast and light. Meanwhile the Black Knight, while awesome, would be very clony, only super-heavy (though I'd say, it's not BK who should be a clone of Ike, but Ike who is a clone of BK ). I really don't know Micaiah, but the way you're talking, looks like she would also be an interesting and unique moveset, which is a plus. And given past experience, I'd say she has more of a chance than BK if they don't have to resort to making the second FE character a clone, as she would basically take Roy's post in the "promotion the next game" shtick .

 

[Chief Mendez]

Prepare yourselves, mortals, for a god walks amongst ye.

You should post that moveset on Mendez's Zelda character disscussion thread.

Plug my thread will you? Well, I'll show you: next time I post somewhere else, I'll let EVERYONE know how cool this one is.

That'll learn ye.

It may have polished the formulae introduced by Mario's earlier games

I disagree. I'm a very vocal DKC detractor, and from my recent experiences with DKC2 on the VC, I can say with confidence that my opinions are not without merit.

Maybe it's just me, but a good platforming game needs more than good graphics, with a side of trial=and-error pathfinding to justify said graphics.

And while I'm on the subject, someone (Johnknight1?) mentioned earlier that DKC innovated by introducing dual-character gameplay. That's not exactly true. Lost Vikings, a really old Blizzard game, not only came out before any of the DKC games, but was also much better. So there.

I'm little confused in that regard. Are there two FE stages (one inside the castle and one on top of it) or is one massive Hyrule Temple style stage? Time will tell...

I think the one on fire is the FE castle, and the one with all the greek statues and such is...well my best guess is Medusa's Underworld (Kid Icarus), but I'm probably in the wrong on that one. Anyway, if there are two whole FE stages, we'll definitely be seeing at least 3 FE characters.

No arguments here. Nintendo's decision to neglect the non-Japanese FE and Earthboud fans by failing to localize these game on VC is just a poor bussiness decision - plain and simple.

I don't think so. Those games are very, very niche, and the resources it'd take to provide a good translation of them outweigh the payoff. Think about it: FE1. from what I've played of it, is terribly backwards compared to even FE7. The only people who'd download it are really, really stupid nerds (like me!). It's always possible, but Ninty's not shooting themselves in the foot by not translating them.

Only characters from a currently thriving series deserve to hang with legends like Mario, Link and Snake permanently.

That brings up a good question: do you think Snake'd make it into the next Smash? It's a bit forward-thinking, but it's an interesting thing to think about. Is he good enough to be a staple of the franchise, or will he go the way of supposed "one time" characters like G&W or Ice Climbers?

I've heard about the Clone Wars from my brother - who caught the whole series on the Cartoon Network. Since it was made by Gendi Tartakofski (the genius behind the beyond awesome Saumerai Jack) I've been searching for the series on DVD. Know anywhere on the interweb where I could view it?

Genndy's stuff is always good stuff. Shame he's not in the business anymore. Also, Samurai Jack is awesome.

I love the idea of including a greater range of alternate costumes for Link and others as long as it isn't too time consuming. How about a Big Boss alternate costume with an eye patch for Snake?

That's a bit too Snake Eater for a Nintendo game. But a tux would be neat.

Incidentilly, don't belive anyone on the Zelda Discussion Thread who tells you that I spread rumors that you and I are the same person.

Wait...we're not?

It's more than a technicallity. Andross with a body has never appeared in a videogame, and Smash is a collection of videogame characters. If Andross is going to be considered for Brawl, it has to be the Andross that appears in the games, not the one created by fans.

Well...who says? I don't see any rulebook lying around.

If they can make up a set of moves for a racecar driver, they can make up a body for a primary villain.

Interesting. I've really got to get aquainted with this series. It sounds like I'm missing out on something special.

If you like fun, then I suggest you do so.

Really? It seems to be Spire's one-shot-kill sniper lazer that gets me every time. Regardless, I'm going to stubornly stick to playing as Samus - like the true Metroid fan I am.

Headshots don't work in Alt Form! And yeah...Sylux *****.

You are correct. Never even heard of that one. I'm somewhat uncultured in the RPG department as my knowlege is limited to Gamecube RPGs - which were not in abundant supply. Hopefully my shiny new DS will have a steady supply of RPGs so I can make up for my waisted childhood.

Look it up.

Also, the GCN sucked it up in the RPG depot. Outside of FE, there's Skies of Arcadia, Tales of Symphonia, and Baten Kaitos...and that's about it. A PSX (they're like 10$ nowadays) would do you good.

I too loved WW, but Twilight Princess is a much better game overall. More dungeons, more fun items, more mini games and side quests, more memorable characters mean that there is simply more of TP to love. I also consider TP's Wii controls to be a vast improvement over all Zelda control schemes. I will give you that WW's graphics are more visually appealing that TP's.

But half of TP was just one big dungeon crawl! The pacing was worse than WW's!

Anyway, I basically disagree with all that, but I won't go any farther than that, since this is not the time NOR the place.

I actually prefer more challenging, old school RPGs like Dragon Quest VIII and FF III over the easier, sissifed new school Final Fantasies and Pokemons . But hey, I guess some people need RPGs that hold their hand the whole way through...

Hey, Pokemon ain't that easy. At least Ruby wasn't. Diamond was a cakewalk though...

If you're looking for a real challenge, go pick up Kingdom hearts 2 and play it on Proud Mode. Alternatively, Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga has the hardest boss of all time.

I get it, but would you rather see Midna with an original moveset and no Black Knight or Midna, Black Knight and one other character as clones?

You don't exactly tug at my heartstrings by sacrificing the Black Knight...but I do see your point.

I'm a bit torn though. I like both options, and at the same time, I hate both options...have to get back to you on that one.

Seriously Mendez, is there any game you HAVEN'T played?!?!

24: The Game

The inovations brought forth by the original LoZ and Oot are nothing to sneeze at. Also, Windwaker introduced its revolutionary art style which proved that a videogame could be an artistic masterpiece. Also, TP introduced Wii controls - the ultimate inovation.

TP's Wii controls really aren't all that. The game was made with the GCN in mind, and it shows. Aiming's better, and swordplay is more visceral (at the expense of accuracy), but it wasn't up there in terms of LOZ or Ocarina improvements.

Good point. I'll have to consider it. But this is the Brawl Character Discussion section, so stage discussion should probably belong in general Brawl discussion. But then, if we can discuss the merits of Star Wars and Communism on this thread, Stage discussion should also be allowed.

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, the Zelda Discussion Thread was called the "Final Zelda Character Thread". But look at it now!

Bah! Twilight Princess is ten times the game that Collosus is! SotC's "open world" is a barren, boring waistland and it's story is almost nonexistant. Horse physics... okay, you win that one.

Bah! Wander had more personality and depth in his pinky finger than TP Link has in his entire body! That 'barren, boring wasteland' served to make the game that much more gripping: it really is just you and your horse, in a forbidden and cursed land ruled by terrible demons, out to save the one you love, despite the commands of your elders. SotC is the prime example of "games as art".

Like I've mentioned, Zelda games have inovated more often than not. More examples: Four Swords introduced Console to GBA multiplayer (perhaps too inovative for its own good) and Phantom Hourglass uses the DS in ways never before imagined.

I think you give the Zelda series a bit too much credit. Touch screen controls are nothing new, and the whole "connectivity" thing would've been awesome, but the way it was lamed by costs just killed any impact it might've had. Plus, FSA wasn't even that good.

There's a really good article up at thewiire that you really should read. Link below!

http://thewiire.com/features/198/1/A_Link_to_the_Past_A_Link_for_the_Future

I Havn't played Okami yet, but compared to TP Collosus is a mini game. A fun, beutiful mimi game, but a mini game never the less.

Well you'd better play Okami soon: the thing sunk at market faster than the Titanic, and in a few years, it'll be up there with Radiant Silvergun in terms of rarity. Also: BAH!

Christ. These quote wars make me feel like an outsider...

"Stay golden Pony...stay golden..."

Anyone? Anyone get it?

Two semi-coloned sentences in a row...that can't be good grammar...

Maybe; but then again; maybe not; right?

Same with Bowser Jr. and his paint brush; he never uses it when he isn't Shadow Mario and only uses it to make goo (and how different can a staff moveset be from paintbrush moveset?)

HA! He uses it as his Power Smash in Mario Power Tennis! I WIN!

And a paintbrush is different from a staff in that it can paint things. I'm sure they could work that concept into a Bowser Jr. moveset. Also, we already have a Sunshine level...so either F.L.U.D.D.'s popping up as an item, or Il Piantissimo the 3rd Bowser Jr. is playable.

I know, I predicted a lot of walls of text after taking a break from these boards for a few days. I only visit the Character Discussion part of the Smash Boards, imagine if I visited other places.

I suspect most of the Pokemon crowd would have a heart attack if Red made it in, but I for one wouldn't be bothered in the least.

I think that'd be neat, if only because a "normal" person in Smash (Phoenix Wright, you say?) would be a nice change of pace.

As far as the inhaling part goes, Kirby and Dx3 behave similarly. It's just what they do afterwards that is different. Kirby swallows, Dx3 sipts them out. This change would be consistent with a Luigi style clone.

I won't get too far into this debate, since I'm not a real Kirby buff, but if Dedede is a clone, all they'd really have to do is change a few A moves (use the hammer!) then make his B move have more knockback and DMG upon spitting.

Nintendo is bound to put Perfect Dark and 007 Golden Eye up on the VC.Plus Clover, the division of Capcom that made him was closed after the production of Okami, so he's got about as close to 0% as you can get. Well, next to Plusle and Minun at least.

I'm sure we'll see Goldeneye in time (Reggie's dead-set on that one), but PD is a Rare property, so...no. Also, Clover isn't "gone" per se. The staff is still with Capcom just no longer collected into one sigular body. Although Kamiya, Inaba and Mikami (Clover's head honchos) have left Capcom and have since formed the independent studio Seeds.

What is it with this thread and its ridiculously (sp?) long posts??

In a word: communism.

DK Jungle Beat is another innovative DK game.

...

Wow. Thats the first time I've seen someone besides me compliment Jungle Beat on these boards. Everyone else seems to be suych a huge DKC fan that they completely overlook how awesome the bongos are. Kudos 2 U.

Did you see the new trailer for FF: Crystal Chronicles on Wii?

ZOMG the main character doesn't look like a total **** this time around. Also, it looks like Skies of Arcadia if it had a child with FFXII. And that's a goos thing.

I’ve decided to stop taking about Smash Bros on this thread and only talk about Canadian Politics. You guys are cool with that, right?

I would be happy to see Prime 3 have Hunters-caliber online multiplayer, but if that were the case I would expect it to have been delayed even longer. The fact that we’re getting an August release makes me think that the game will consist entirely of a lengthy, superbly polished single player experience. And since the Wii will be getting both Brawl and Batteleon Wars online, that’s fine with me.

Yeah, if NST was given the Corruption engine to work on a WiFi component with, I'd explode (with happy!).

I'd also like to point out that WiFi in Brawl has yet to be confirmed...so there's still a chance that we'll have to all break out those torches and pitchforks and swim to Japan on the backs of giant sea turtles in the near future. Keep those torces loaded.

I agree for the most part, though I personally prefer MM over OoT. It was the first Zelda I played and it will forever have a special place in my heart.

Same here. Ocarina popped my adventuring cherry, but Majora was just so dang involving. And it has the best sidequest evar: getting the Couple's Mask.

If you want to play a REAL super hero game, try Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction.

Cow missiles for the win, man!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Anyway, if I mispelled something or mis-quoted someone...blame the guy who invented trackballs.

Seriously, what was that guy thinking?

 

[Devastlian]

I think the one on fire is the FE castle, and the one with all the greek statues and such is...well my best guess is Medusa's Underworld (Kid Icarus), but I'm probably in the wrong on that one. Anyway, if there are two whole FE stages, we'll definitely be seeing at least 3 FE characters.

But the one with the Greek statues has identical flags (at least identical art on them) as the ones on the outside castle stage. Plus, red army worshipping a black dragon = Fire Emblem...at least that's what I gather. And two stages would mean at least two characters...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/Seanpuppy/1111111.jpg
Look it up.

Speaking of niche. ****...I need to beat that game. :/

Maybe; but then again; maybe not; right?

It only counts if you use it correctly, though.

HA! He uses it as his Power Smash in Mario Power Tennis! I WIN!

And a paintbrush is different from a staff in that it can paint things. I'm sure they could work that concept into a Bowser Jr. moveset. Also, we already have a Sunshine level...so either F.L.U.D.D.'s popping up as an item, or Il Piantissimo the 3rd Bowser Jr. is playable.

Il Piantissimo the 3rd > Bowser Jr. Also, a Super Mario Sunshine level could just mean Mario's playable...<_<

 

[Smady]

Okay, but doesn't Dx3 sometimes use attacks other than his hammer? I seem to recall him using boxing gloves in the original Kirby GB game, but is has been a while.

The very first game is indeed a while.

The hammer is a staple of his character. Like Marth's sword, Bowser's shell and Metaknight's cape. It needs to be seen on screen every moment you see him to get the message across of just how ****ing important that hammer is. Dx3 loves that hammer so much I would not be surprised if he set it upside down and sat on it for pleasure. So why would his main weapon not be used for his As? Kirby's hammer sucks, unless you alter everything to be better it won't work. And then that's just the rolling hammer in the air and the sidewards hammer on the ground, no uppercut hammer.

Yeah, so take that same pricple and increase the speed and velocity with which they can be spit out and you've got Dx3's B move.

You also need the sucking in time to have a set few seconds of time, allow Dx3 to still float (unlike Kirby) as well as numerous other things. It's not that simple, especially if you want a balanced Dx3, it'd be a bigger job than re-animating everything for a new moveset. So what's the point?

Not a clone in the purest sense of the word, Smashy - but a clone in the same way that Luigi is a clone. Different wire frame, same moveset (only heavily modified).

Wisey, Wisey, Wisey... The modification needed would be so drastic. I can't see him not having his hammer for As. I can't see him not having a heavier flying technique to Kirby. I can't see him using the stone move of Kirby. I can't see him using the sword, the B> hammer for anything if his Hammer is A... Very messy. You'd have a bigger, complicated model using a small blob's moveset.

Yeah, he could use his head and free hand. Take a character like Samus: did she even resort to punching and kicking her enemies? No, that was a change they made without drawing from her game of origin. They could potentially do the same for Dx3.

They could - but shouldn't. Samus only shoots in her games, Dx3 basically wrestles and hits with his hammer. They had to give Samus kicks and punches. Dx3 doesn't require any further creativeness on the Smash team's side to fill in slots for moves, he has enough!

Sure, popular characters generally have unique movesets. However, Luigi and Ganondorf are proof that there can be exceptions to this rule.

Only if it saves time. Luigi is so much like Mario in appearance and in the games, especially before Luigi's Mansion, it makes sense for them to be similar. Ganondorf was a time problem, and will have a unique moveset in 'Brawl. Anyway, it's not like Ganondorf was that popular for 'Melee. Dx3 is the most popular for 'Brawl.

I would rather the ICs be replaced by a different retro character like Geno, so no. But IF they did return, I would still consider a Kirby clone more likely since they similarities beyond just having a hammer (sucking, floating jump, from the same series, ect.)

Yes, the ICs suck and will be removed. But the similarities with Kirby are all flawed. Creating a new moveset would be simpler and make more sense.

No disagreements here, I just don't think his height rules him out as a Kirby clone.

His arms do. He's taller, so Kirby's jabbing punches will go over some enemies.

No, I understand what your saying. But by planning ahead to include clones, they can make sure that the characters that are clones are logical in the sense that that they share characteristics with the character they are copied from. That way we can avoid head scratchers like the decision to include Ganondorf as a Falcon clone. To summarize: including clones is inevitable, so by planning to do it they can make sure it is done right.

The more popular characters are, the more likely Sakurai will get on them. He'll tick characters off the list as he goes along. Now, his own series, with the most requested character for 'Brawl... Will Dx3 be at the end of the list? It doesn't apply to him, Dx3 is going to either already be made or almost be made by this point.

Thing with clones is there usually is no-one already in that is similar enough to allow a clone, so randomness ensues. And you have problems with any clones that aren't pretty much the same in their games to the person they're a clone of. Case in point; Ganondorf. Cloned from a completely random character because no-one suits him and he isn't as popular as Zelda, Sheik or Young Link to get top of the list. Dx3 is as popular and more as Metaknight or Kirby, is top of the list and no-one really suits him except for the few moves he shares with Kirby, which are altered extremely.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's moves would have different effects, though, like all the clones do.

I'm not even seriously saying that Diddy should be a clone; just that, if King Dedede can be a Kirby clone, Diddy Kong can be a Donkey Kong clone. Neither of them should be. There's enough stuff from their collection of appearances to give them both original movesets and they're popular enough to be first picks.

Well King DeDeDe also wouldn't be a Kirby clone the same way as Diddy wouldn't be a clone from DK. Still it's pretty different, since Kirby and DeDeDe actually share some common moves but Diddy and DK absolutely don't. Maybe Diddy's aerial moves could be similair to DK's, but not more than that.

King DeDeDe and Kirby both can fly and have hammers, ohh and DeDeDe can suck enemies up aswell but he wouldn't be a clone from Kirby atleast. Sorta the same with Diddy but in a lesser extant, DeDeDe can't turn into a Stone or do a Final Cutter since he can't copy abilities. And his flying could easly be his Up B move.

 

[TDub301]

This may have been said already, I didn't read everyone's comments, but most people seem to be sure that clones will return. I don't mean specific clones, I mean clones in general. I think that Brawl will have spent enough time in development to not have to use clones. Remember, the only reason clones were in Melee was because they were under pressure to finish the game. They've had plenty of time now, I don't think any characters will be clones. Would it upset anybody if there were no clones? Not me...

Also, I started a post about a create-a-character mode in Brawl a long time ago and it got shot down. Where were all you people who are supporting this Mii idea when I posted? You do know that it's pretty much the same thing... I think it would be great, but I think it should be like a separate roster. Like Miis can't fight regular characters, they can only fight other Miis. It makes sense to use them, but I'd be dissappointed if there were limited move-sets to choose from (which will almost certainly happen). It would be great if they did a create a fighter thing and included some sort of mode that allowed you to create your own moves. But if that happened, it obviously wouldn't remain balanced, which is why I think Miis should only fight Miis.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
The argument for clones isn't that they are required (as was the case in Melee), but rather that their inclusion would let in more characters. Personally, I think I'd rather have 35 unique characters than 35 unique ones and 5 copies.

Also, I'd rather not see Miis as fighters. If they are in, they'd (as you suggest) hopefully be segregated into a different roster. As far as movesets, the ultimate idea would be to pull a Robo Ky and let the player assign anyone's Fair (for example) to the Mii in question. But yeah, that wouldn't be balanced...but then, that's why they'd segregate them.

But the one with the Greek statues has identical flags (at least identical art on them) as the ones on the outside castle stage. Plus, red army worshipping a black dragon = Fire Emblem...at least that's what I gather. And two stages would mean at least two characters...

Well...whatever. It was just a guess anyway. The stage with the statues doesn't look particularly Fire Emblem-y, though.

And we had how many FE fighters in Melee? And how many FE stages? Metroid, with only one rep, had two. DK had a whole three. If those two are indeed separate stages, then I'm pretty confident we'll be seeing more than one FE character.

 

[Smady]

I want to give my Chuck Norris Mii the KNEE!

 

[Phaazoid]

mii's would be fun, but you would have to have a way to put multiple mii's in, maybe like the names were stored in melee.