Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[Aunt Jemima]

ye. Who do you guys wanna start with?

 

[JesterJaded]

I nominate Sheik, ZSS, and Pikachu.

 

[Kodystri]

Sheik for sure. Sonic and Ness after that.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Villager, Sheik and Sonic

 

[NekoJubei]

Alright as for our MU with Boy Zelda this is what I have so far
- Pros
• Sheik is light AND a fast faller, we can combo her hard and kill her early if we land our set ups, especially with Lucas's nasty Down Throw Up Air/Back Air
• We are combo-heavy and floaty, we can combo Sheik well but Sheik can't so well(I'm not saying she can't combo us, she can but since we are floaty, we can escape more easily)
• Tether. Unlike Ness, We can recover pretty well thanks to our tether and our PKT2, HOWEVER, we can get hit out or PKT2 easily, so use your tether as much as you can but don't make your PKT2 recovery pattern too predictable.

- Cons
• Needles, we don't have a proper reflector so she can camp us, Make sure to be in the air as much as you can when you are away from Sheik, and if you want, you can combine your landings by Air stalling with Side Magnet.
• Sheik has the frama data of the gods so she can beat us up close, make sure to roll away her grabs, because if we spot dodge her grab, she can grab us again. Make sure to zone her out mid range, as she can needle us from long range.
• Well, it's Sheik so watch out for her nasty set ups.

-Notes
• We can heal 30% off Sheik's Up B so if you know that you can't edgeguard her atm.
• If Sheik tries to do Forward Throw to Up B, we can just Side Magnet to absorb it if we predict it
• Make sure to recover low with PKT2, as we don't want to want to get bouncing fish'd while recovering.

 

[Login_Sinker]

Can we actually start the discussions? Like for each MU. Its been almost 2 months.

I second this. As it is now, the discussions are messy and all over the place. Can we get it all cleaned up and organized on page 1?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Sheik and ZSS have to be the priority because they're the clear top two. Especially Sheik. That MU is absolutely critical. We should cover Captain Falcon early, because he's so popular. But probably only after Rosalina, because a lot of people assume that she beats Lucas as easily as she beats Ness, which I don't believe is the case. (Not that she doesn't win. It's just not a hard counter. Hell, I'm not convinced that Rosalina even hard-counters Ness.) After that, we start tackling our hardest match-ups.
1. Sheik
2. ZSS
3. Rosalina
4. Captain Falcon
5. Villager
etc.
Or something similar.

That would be a good start, no?

 

[K3H]

So I've played a bunch of Sheiks, and I feel that we don't lose horribly up close. Lucas has really fast tilts, and Anda frame 2 jab to match Sheiks. Down B doesn't work too well as a kill move for her, since we can PSI Magnet it, and avoiding her Uair at later percents depends on reaction time. As previously said, we can combo, but don't get combo'd(?) as hard. Lucas can stuff her aerial approaches with Utilt, assuming reaction time is pretty good. I've also, on rare occasion, been able to escape a combo from her by spamming Uair (it's nowhere near as reliable as a Nair though). She's actually really light, so a well placed Dsmash can quickly take take a stock. As well as an Usmash, but you shouldn't be throwing those out. Especially against against a Sheik, let alone a competent one. She also falls victim to the Dsmash edgeguard. It'll be Lucas' go-to option against her, since actually gimping, or even guarding Sheik is a risk. Unless you're feeling up for it, and going down to restore a bit of percent. You'll need to jab a lot in the matchup as well. It's not impossible to win against Sheik. Just somewhat difficult.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

I vote Ness and ZSS since ZSS is rising up in the tier ranks and I want to see just how good we do against our other rep.

 

[Login_Sinker]

ZSS isn't top 2 just because ZeRo said so. I consider her a "priority" pick as well, but only after the characters who look like they quite clearly give us trouble (which would be Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, Rosalina IMO)

 

[SpottedCerberus]

ZSS isn't top 2 just because ZeRo said so. I consider her a "priority" pick as well, but only after the characters who look like they quite clearly give us trouble (which would be Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, Rosalina IMO)

I don't really care what ZeRo says. I'm just looking at how incredible her advantage and disadvantage states both are, how great her match-ups are, and how few weaknesses she has. Her grab sucks, and that's the only reason she isn't over-powered. Flip Jump is the best move in the game. It's kind of ridiculous.

But I can see why those other characters would be a priority, especially as Pikachu seems to be growing in popularity.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

So, how about we just keep this thread as a general MU discussion and create new threads for each MU, as we cover them? We aren't really active enough to depend on short discussion periods. If we dedicate specific threads then the discussion period is indefinite, and we can keep a general discussion thread to address any specific concerns.

We already have a Rosalina thread, and the system seems to work there. Someone just started a Sonic thread as well. So it's basically what we're doing already, just in a more organized fashion.

Also, we should focus on talking about the match-ups themselves rather than trying to assign ratios or anything.

 

[Kodystri]

I think we should be giving ratios. Just wish the mods were a little bit more active.


Currently these are my ratios

Sheik: -2
Rosalina: 0
Luigi: +1
ZSS: 0
Pikachu: 0
Ness: 0
Diddy Kong: 0
Yoshi: 0
Sonic: -1.5
Mario: 0
Fox: 0
Captain Falcon: 0
Villager: 0
Roy: +1
Ryu: 0
Wario: 0
Meta Knight: 0
Mii Brawler: 0
Olimar: -1
(Dark) Pit: 0
ROB: +1
Pac-Man: 0
Peach: 0
Greninja: 0
Lucario: 0
Kirby: 0
Mega Man: -0.5
Toon Link: 0
Ike: 0
Shulk: 0
Falco: 0
Mr. Game And Watch: 0
Link: +1
Duck Hunt: +0.5
Bowser Jr. +1
Marth: 0
Robin: +0.5
Mii Gunner: +2
Donkey Kong: +1
Little Mac: +1
Wii Fit Trainer: +1
Jigglypuff: 0
King Dedede: +1
Bowser: +1
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Lucina: +0.5
Doctor Mario: +1
Charizard:+1
Mewtwo: +1
Ganondorf: +1
Palutena: +1
Zelda: +1
Samus: +1


From what you are looking at, I think Lucas has many many even MUs while some good and bad MUs. I think Lucas is tourney viable by himself except he has difficulties with Sonic and Sheik and somewhat Olimar.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

The issue with giving ratios is that people might just give the ratios without explanation, when the explanation/discussion is the whole point. We can say "Lucas beats Luigi" but it means nothing if we don't elaborate on why.

 

[K3H]

The issue with giving ratios is that people might just give the ratios without explanation, when the explanation/discussion is the whole point. We can say "Lucas beats Luigi" but it means nothing if we don't elaborate on why.

I feel the same. Lucas beats Luigi for more than one reason. Fireballs are damn near useless against Lucas, since he can absorb them, reflect them, or shield them and attack after, since his jab is frame 2. That means Luigi can't use his go-to approach option, and shutting that down in any MU is a big deal. So Luigi can either approach from the air, or ground. Air approaches can easily be stifled with Zair, or a Fair if you're quick with it. Maybe other aerials too, but the point is air approaches aren't really really good choice from him. And ground approaches can either either be stopped with retreating Zair, PK Fire, grabbing him while he's running at you, or Nairing or Dairing. He's also a sitting duck off stage, and Lucas can go super deep to stop him, and make it back no problem. You'll probably get grabbed at some point, but making back ~35% isn't too much of a problem, given Lucas' amazing combo game. Another thing I don't really see people do is letting Luigi hit you with his missile on his way back to the stage. It screws up his recovery distance, and Lucas can definitely make it back from wherever he got by it.

 

[Kodystri]

I have fought every character at least 5 times and If you ask me why on all of these, I am pretty damn sure I can give a good explanation.

Some I may be a little shaky on especially low tiers, but I can give a good basis from personal experience.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If you ever need me for something, just tag me. I really need to check the Lucas boards more, though!

Question. We have a few options for MU discussion...

Would you guys like all MU discussion to take place in new threads per character while this thread be the general MU discussion/redirectory to MU threads, or all MU discussion to take place here?

Should we do MU ratios (ie: 50:50), MU scores (ie: +1) or do something similar to the Sheik boards where we don't have MU ratios and just put down our thoughts on MUs?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I have fought every character at least 5 times and If you ask me why on all of these, I am pretty damn sure I can give a good explanation.

Some I may be a little shaky on especially low tiers, but I can give a good basis from personal experience.

Of course, I didn't mean to question your knowledge of match-ups. My point is that a lot of people will just post a ratio without giving an explanation. It's okay that you did it just now, because we aren't discussing any specific character and you can't be expected to make a write-up on every match-up. But if you look at other boards, a lot of people just say "we win" or "we lose" in a match-up discussion. I suppose the solution would be to make it a rule that people have to explain.

Also, I think people get too focused on the ratios instead of focusing on things that we know for a fact. Ratios are rather subjective, and often speculative. But giving specific points about a match-up is more valuable in the long run because even when the ratio of a match-up changes as opinions change, the points made in the thread will still be true to an extent.

If people want to give ratios then there's no issue with that, but they shouldn't be our focus.

If we do use ratios, I would suggest not using ratios. As in, we should use the "+ or -1" system on a scale of -3 to +3. The ratios mean something different to everyone, and they have a tendency to encourage over-specificity.

Grab the Gyro in the ROB MU. It will force him to approach because he can't laser.

Important note about this:

At first, I struggled to implement this strategy because I couldn't use z-air without dropping the gyro, and I couldn't do any z-drop aerials. Then I realized that if you do an air dodge and cancel it into z-air, you don't drop the gyro. This made things a lot easier for me because I could use both z-air and PK Fire for zoning.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

If you ever need me for something, just tag me. I really need to check the Lucas boards more, though!

Question. We have a few options for MU discussion...

Would you guys like all MU discussion to take place in new threads per character while this thread be the general MU discussion/redirectory to MU threads, or all MU discussion to take place here?

Should we do MU ratios (ie: 50:50), MU scores (ie: +1) or do something similar to the Sheik boards where we don't have MU ratios and just put down our thoughts on MUs?

I'd rather have all the MU exp here and Ratios.

 

[Kodystri]

If you ever need me for something, just tag me. I really need to check the Lucas boards more, though!

Question. We have a few options for MU discussion...

Would you guys like all MU discussion to take place in new threads per character while this thread be the general MU discussion/redirectory to MU threads, or all MU discussion to take place here?

Should we do MU ratios (ie: 50:50), MU scores (ie: +1) or do something similar to the Sheik boards where we don't have MU ratios and just put down our thoughts on MUs?

Yeah lets use Ratios like the +1 or -1.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Currently these are my ratios on 3-stock matches.

Villager: -2
Sheik: -2
Toon Link: -1.5
Yoshi: -1.5
Sonic: -1.5
Rosalina: -1.5
Shulk: -1 (If they don't mallc then +1)
ZSS: -1
Olimar: -0.5
Pikachu: 0
Diddy Kong: 0
Meta Knight: 0
(Dark) Pit: 0
Kirby: 0
Mega Man: 0
Ike: 0
Doctor Mario: 0
Link: +0.5
Ness: +0.5
Mario: +0.5
Fox: +0.5
Captain Falcon: +0.5
Roy: +0.5
Ryu: +1
Wario: +1 (2 stocks it's 0 or maybe even -0.5)
ROB: +1
Luigi: +1
Pac-Man: +1
Lucario: +1 (2 stock might be easier for Lucario, not sure)
Falco: +1
Mr. Game And Watch: +1
Duck Hunt: +1
Bowser Jr. +1
Marth: +1
Robin: +1
Lucina: +1
Wii Fit Trainer: +1
King Dedede: +1
Bowser: +1.5
Charizard:+1.5
Mewtwo: +1.5
Ganondorf: +1.5
Zelda: +1.5
Samus: +2
Donkey Kong: +2
Little Mac: +2


I don't know at all.
Mii Swordfighter:
Mii Gunner:
Mii Brawler:
Peach:
Greninja:
Palutena:

 

[Kodystri]

Currently these are my ratios on 3-stock matches.

Villager: -2
Sheik: -2
Toon Link: -1.5
Yoshi: -1.5
Sonic: -1.5
Rosalina: -1.5
Shulk: -1 (If they don't mallc then +1)
ZSS: -1
Olimar: -0.5
Pikachu: 0
Diddy Kong: 0
Meta Knight: 0
(Dark) Pit: 0
Kirby: 0
Mega Man: 0
Ike: 0
Doctor Mario: 0
Link: +0.5
Ness: +0.5
Mario: +0.5
Fox: +0.5
Captain Falcon: +0.5
Roy: +0.5
Ryu: +1
Wario: +1 (2 stocks it's 0 or maybe even -0.5)
ROB: +1
Luigi: +1
Pac-Man: +1
Lucario: +1 (2 stock might be easier for Lucario, not sure)
Falco: +1
Mr. Game And Watch: +1
Duck Hunt: +1
Bowser Jr. +1
Marth: +1
Robin: +1
Lucina: +1
Wii Fit Trainer: +1
King Dedede: +1
Bowser: +1.5
Charizard:+1.5
Mewtwo: +1.5
Ganondorf: +1.5
Zelda: +1.5
Samus: +2
Donkey Kong: +2
Little Mac: +2


I don't know at all.
Mii Swordfighter:
Mii Gunner:
Mii Brawler:
Peach:
Greninja:
Palutena:

Not going to rage at you, but I am going to question on a few... interesting hcoices.

Why Villager -2? I don't think the MU is hard at all. If he pockets PK Fire, woopy doo, he can't pocket my PK Thunder and I take a little bit more knockback that can kill around 100%(I think). The gimps hurt, but Lucas can recover from anywhere and stall with PSI Magnet and the tether definitely helps. And you can stop a decent amount of zoning with Forward Smash if Villager tries to Fair/Bair, Lloyd Rocket, and possibly Bowling Ball. Also, take advantage of the fact that Lucas can heal 30% from Lloyd rocket if you catch the explosion(Not hitting you) from when the move finishes or when the rocket is hitting the wall. Villager loses to shield, so you can just shield for days, and Lucas has faster grounded options than Villager(Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, Jab). The biggest troubles we have in this MU is being in the air. Villager has better aerials than ours.

Shulk is a -1 or +1 if no MallC? We are assuming top level play here . I am also very certain that MALLC doesn't make a huge difference. The MU isn't hard. We are one of the few characters that can reliably kill him in shield mode around 120% if we perfect our footstool jab lock combos. Even so, just camp him out with PK Fire, PK Freeze, and Zair if he ever decides to go in Shield Mode. Just play lame af in this Match Up. Shulk has two weaknesses: Terrible Frame data=Combo Bait and hatred of Projectiles. We have both. In my opinion, I think we only really have tons of trouble against Jump Shulk as our Aerials are not that good.

If you are assuming we lose badly to Rosalina because of gimps, that is not true. Even if we have to rely on PKT to recover, we can bait out the UP b through PSI Magnet stalling and Uair(Or even end her stock with Back Air!) her and then recover because our recovery is really good.


We don't win against Ness because we can gimp him. Ness has a better neutral than us because of his crazy aerials and better grab game and stronger punish game.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

With optimal play, we should be able to kill Ness every time he tries to recover. Unfortunately, this doesn't necessarily mean that we win the MU. His n-air, u-air, f-air, and b-air are all among the best in the game, and he just out-damages us. I don't know what his aerial frame data is exactly, but I have to imagine that it's far better than ours.

F-air walls us out. It's difficult to respond to.

PK Fire is far more situational in use against him as well. We have difficulty zoning him out, and dealing with his spaced aerial approaches.

I think we lose. Maybe it's even, but I have a hard time believing we actually have an advantage.

I think that Villager and Rosalina are even or better so long as you're careful with your recovery. Rosalina, in particular, I think could be a slight advantage for us. I don't know if we beat Villager, but I really don't think we lose.

 

[K3H]

I too feel that the MU against Ness is even at best. His combos are much easier to pull off, and his damage output is greater than that of Lucas. Approaching from the air doesn't really work, since he can just Fair. Sure, we can Zair him, but that doesn't really get us anywhere. And that Bthrow will kill Lucas kind of early, since he's on the lighter side. It's actually funny how quickly Ness can come back from whatever lead you had just off of the slightest mistake.

 

[NekoJubei]

Ness has a better neutral...? ;-;
Anyways why is Sonic -1.5?
That match up isn't that bad because we can stop Sonic's spin dash approaches easily with our Wavebounce PK Fires,Z-Air and Grab

 

[Login_Sinker]

I think we should be giving ratios. Just wish the mods were a little bit more active.


Currently these are my ratios

Sheik: -2
Rosalina: 0
Luigi: +1
ZSS: 0
Pikachu: 0
Ness: 0
Diddy Kong: 0
Yoshi: 0
Sonic: -1.5
Mario: 0
Fox: 0
Captain Falcon: 0
Villager: 0
Roy: +1
Ryu: 0
Wario: 0
Meta Knight: 0
Mii Brawler: 0
Olimar: -1
(Dark) Pit: 0
ROB: +1
Pac-Man: 0
Peach: 0
Greninja: 0
Lucario: 0
Kirby: 0
Mega Man: -0.5
Toon Link: 0
Ike: 0
Shulk: 0
Falco: 0
Mr. Game And Watch: 0
Link: +1
Duck Hunt: +0.5
Bowser Jr. +1
Marth: 0
Robin: +0.5
Mii Gunner: +2
Donkey Kong: +1
Little Mac: +1
Wii Fit Trainer: +1
Jigglypuff: 0
King Dedede: +1
Bowser: +1
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Lucina: +0.5
Doctor Mario: +1
Charizard:+1
Mewtwo: +1
Ganondorf: +1
Palutena: +1
Zelda: +1
Samus: +1


From what you are looking at, I think Lucas has many many even MUs while some good and bad MUs. I think Lucas is tourney viable by himself except he has difficulties with Sonic and Sheik and somewhat Olimar.

I feel like saying that Lucas is, on the whole, a good solo main is a bold statement. I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I'm curious as to why you think he does mostly good against the cast. When I look at Lucas, his weaknesses seem a bit more prominent to me, I suppose. I'd like to see him from your point of view, if that makes sense.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

snip

If you would rage on me for my ratio choices then that would be pretty pathetic. Do people actually do that?

Anyway, Villager doesn't care about anything Lucas does tbh. F-air, B-air and F-B can make it extremely hard to either get your own zoning going or get in. And like you said, F-smash helps a lot but similar to Lucas v Olimar but it can be baited and whiff punished and it can get pocketed as well. The biggest issue with the Villager v Lucas match-up isn't Pocket it's F-smash Villager can use F-smash on the ledge it self and can catch your Tether recovery and Up-B. And that F-smash kills WAAAAY to fast.

Shulk Mallc, matters a lot. It's the difference between terrible landing lag and overall a lackluster character and a character that has Sheik F-air recovery on everything, outranges you and can shield break at a blink of a eye. I think the only person out there how is mallc'ing somewhat consistantly is 9B. Maybe +1 is a bit steep because Shulk hasn't mallc'd enough at tourneys but imo when Shulk main get the hang of it that's where the match-up is heading. And Jump Shulk is very scary. (FEI, Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel or MALLC happens when Shulk is in his recovery animation of a aerial and a Monado art activates making his recovery disappear and thus making the aerial (all of them) safe on shield. Especially B-air becomes a problem because it has the longest shieldstun.)

With RosaLuma it's not just the recovery gimp because that really isn't a huge problem imo, but it's other things as well. Lucas is deadweight when he's above her. You have no moves that can challenge her Up-air, you get frame trapped for days because you have no fast enough aerial and no fast trajectory changing move to make it hard for her to start those shenanigans. The neutral isn't a cakewalk either, You can't really combo her as long as Luma is there looming, so you need to get rid of that thing first and then get your damage in the 15 seconds following. I really think RosaLuma is 2nd best in the game and the gimp is just icing on the cake.

For Ness, it pretty much a game of tag. He only heals 5% from PK-fire so just keep him of you at all costs. Ness does struggle with projectiles even if he can absorb them (kuck kuck Weegee) and even though his combo's are more easy mode than ours it still does a ton of damage. And gimping him is really really really easy. At worst I can see this 0 because of his easy damage and back throw but he doesn't have anything that stops us from playing as lame as possible.

I didn't knew Lucas could absorb the Lloydsplotion though, doesn't happen very often but it can help.

And I agree with you. You can be a solo Lucas main. Some match-ups are obnoxious to deal with though.

 

[Kodystri]

The Ness MU as I am both a Ness and Lucas main.

The Match Up, I am very convinced, is EVEN.


What Ness has trouble in the MU.

Getting Gimped: Omg that is soo annoying. a well placed PK Fire or Down Smash will end my life. I have to sweepspot to ledge with my double jump to grab on it and I can't risk using PKT or I will get gimped.

PK Fire Zoning. Although he has bat and PSI Magnet, this is a pain to deal with. Ness does not like this at all.

What Lucas has trouble in the MU.

Getting Edgeguard: Ness can edgeguard Lucas just as well as Lucas can gimp Ness. I can generally block many attempts to get back on the stage against Lucas if Lucas has to use PKT2. Using PSI Magnet to gimp Lucas is very risky, don't do it, but LUcas is sooo vulnerable when he is in PKT2. Nair or Fair or Bair will annoy him. And Nair's lingering Hitbox will make it hard for Lucas to tether grab. Last but not least, the best way Lucas has to defend himself when recovering is Nair or PK Fire. This is no

If you would rage on me for my ratio choices then that would be pretty pathetic. Do people actually do that?

Anyway, Villager doesn't care about anything Lucas does tbh. F-air, B-air and F-B can make it extremely hard to either get your own zoning going or get in. And like you said, F-smash helps a lot but similar to Lucas v Olimar but it can be baited and whiff punished and it can get pocketed as well. The biggest issue with the Villager v Lucas match-up isn't Pocket it's F-smash Villager can use F-smash on the ledge it self and can catch your Tether recovery and Up-B. And that F-smash kills WAAAAY to fast.

Shulk Mallc, matters a lot. It's the difference between terrible landing lag and overall a lackluster character and a character that has Sheik F-air recovery on everything, outranges you and can shield break at a blink of a eye. I think the only person out there how is mallc'ing somewhat consistantly is 9B. Maybe +1 is a bit steep because Shulk hasn't mallc'd enough at tourneys but imo when Shulk main get the hang of it that's where the match-up is heading. And Jump Shulk is very scary. (FEI, Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel or MALLC happens when Shulk is in his recovery animation of a aerial and a Monado art activates making his recovery disappear and thus making the aerial (all of them) safe on shield. Especially B-air becomes a problem because it has the longest shieldstun.)

With RosaLuma it's not just the recovery gimp because that really isn't a huge problem imo, but it's other things as well. Lucas is deadweight when he's above her. You have no moves that can challenge her Up-air, you get frame trapped for days because you have no fast enough aerial and no fast trajectory changing move to make it hard for her to start those shenanigans. The neutral isn't a cakewalk either, You can't really combo her as long as Luma is there looming, so you need to get rid of that thing first and then get your damage in the 15 seconds following. I really think RosaLuma is 2nd best in the game and the gimp is just icing on the cake.

For Ness, it pretty much a game of tag. He only heals 5% from PK-fire so just keep him of you at all costs. Ness does struggle with projectiles even if he can absorb them (kuck kuck Weegee) and even though his combo's are more easy mode than ours it still does a ton of damage. And gimping him is really really really easy. At worst I can see this 0 because of his easy damage and back throw but he doesn't have anything that stops us from playing as lame as possible.

I didn't knew Lucas could absorb the Lloydsplotion though, doesn't happen very often but it can help.

And I agree with you. You can be a solo Lucas main. Some match-ups are obnoxious to deal with though.

It seems like a personal problem if you get hit by Villagers FSmash all the time. If anything, Lucas has an easier time getting back on the stage against Villager than Ness does and that MU is even.

Mallc is very telegraphed, you can tell when he is going to MALLC or not. And don't forget Shulk has terrible startup on all aerials. I think the fastest is Frame 11 Nair.


No character simply challenges Rosalinas Up Air. Way too disjointed and kill early if you dont respect it. Lucas can probably escape it eaiser than most characters through PSi Magnet stalling. Lucas actualy has tools to deal with Rosa. PK Fire and PK Freeze and Zair helps a lot in this MU. She can only absorb PK Fire. And she cant spam it because you can bait it out and punish. And when Luma is gone, you can go aggressive and combo her. Just play lame until Luma is dead.

And Ness, he has much better aerials than ours and we just cant challenge in the air.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I'm also a Lucas/Ness main but that's not really interesting.

You're right, both characters get gimped easily by eachother. (Although I think Ness has a harder time coming back than Lucas) But I think the key difference is how good we think PK-fire is in this match-up. Because we both pretty much say the same thing about the match-up.

Villager's Fsmash though, how would you dodge it though? If you're offstage without a second jump it's close to impossible to dodge it. especially if you have to use Up-b. Also I have to disagree on Ness v Villager being even. But that's a discussion for a different board.

Mallc is just as telegraphed and any other slow character doing stuff. Doesn't make it less stupid. But like I said, there aren't really any Shulk players out there who I've seen mallc'ing alot so maybe well just have to wait until that happens.

And for RosaLuma, I really can't see it work. But then again, I don't play against RosaLuma that often.

 

[Kodystri]

I'm also a Lucas/Ness main but that's not really interesting.

You're right, both characters get gimped easily by eachother. (Although I think Ness has a harder time coming back than Lucas) But I think the key difference is how good we think PK-fire is in this match-up. Because we both pretty much say the same thing about the match-up.

Villager's Fsmash though, how would you dodge it though? If you're offstage without a second jump it's close to impossible to dodge it. especially if you have to use Up-b. Also I have to disagree on Ness v Villager being even. But that's a discussion for a different board.

Mallc is just as telegraphed and any other slow character doing stuff. Doesn't make it less stupid. But like I said, there aren't really any Shulk players out there who I've seen mallc'ing alot so maybe well just have to wait until that happens.

And for RosaLuma, I really can't see it work. But then again, I don't play against RosaLuma that often.

1. Recover High
2. Don't put yourself in a situation where you have to get hit by bowling ball.
3. Most of Villagers moves aside from Nair sends you diagonally up and somewhat Fair/Bair.
4. Don't put yourself in a bad position offstage.
5. Most characters has trouble with this, including Rosalina, who is Villager;'s worst MU, and she doesn't autolose from this.
6. Villager is literally the king of edgeguarding.

Villager's weakness is:
Outspaced by certain projectiles that is longer than Fair/Bair
Fighting Up close
Some Vulnerability offstage(Bair and PK Fire if hits balloon gimps


Mallc is telegraphed enough to where you can shield it and respect it. You better respect that move.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

http://smashboards.com/threads/jigglypuffs-bad-mus.411739/page-2#post-19964491
This is like a small discussion on what characters loses to.
Lucas is a bad one, mind coming by and elaborating why?

 

[NekoJubei]

Lucas VS PacMan in one video Lolz
(I'm da Lucas)

 

[Nin10dohNerd]

I think Lucas (and to a certain degree, Ness) struggle a lot against Yoshi, since his dash grab to grab release to jab to dash attack is really hard hitting. Plus his aerials are fast and have a lot of priority and range. They can also spam eggs because we can't reflect them or we get punished. Maybe it's just me but I feel Yoshi beats us out quite often...

 

[PapaDiggle]

Guys what do I do against pikachu??

 

[Login_Sinker]

Guys what do I do against pikachu??

Use your PK fire zoning like in most match ups, and try to use zair to stop Pikachu's Fair approaches. You can also eat thunder jolts for free healing if your opponent is careless with them. I imagine that this MU should be played fairly defensively. Try to apply pressure with your spacing tools, but don't do anything unsafe. As always, try to punish your opponent's mistakes, because that's where you can get big damage.

 

[JohnnyB]

Its a rock paper scissors kindof situation with Villagers gimp options. If he follows you off stage you don't have to worry about bowling ball, but if he just sits by the edge use pkt2 to recover. If he's on stage he can't pocket it and you have a decent chance of making it back to the ledge. Use your magnet and stall for a bit within tether distance to see what he is going to do and act accordingly (just don't do this every time or you will eat an offstage aerial).

Punish his Lloid startup with pk fire. Use pk freeze at longer ranges (hit his lloids with it if he tries to use them). Use fsmash to punish just about any of his normal moves since they have zero range, and watch out for the slingshots while villager is landing. His aerials are kindof tricky and i haven't really taken the time to figure out what beats what, but you definitly don't want to be under villager in the air, his dair beats Lucas nair and uair easily. Even if you airdodge the dair he has a decent chance of catching you with his frame 3 nair if you are still in range after your dodge. Be extra careful about reflecting things back at Villager, pocketed lloids are twice as strong and the tree will OHKO you at probably 0% and break your shield in one hit, if pocketed. TBH though the tree chop isn't all that frightening with all of lucases zoning tools, it's the growth you have to watch out for. Don't be too agressive around a sappling, epically if Villager half-waters it (it will spring up *instantly* if he gives it any more water).

Villager tends to lose against characters that can zone better than him (Mega Man, DHD), and Lucas is definitely one of those characters. Lucas breaks his zoning quite easily due to his short height and great options vs lloid. I actually am having a hard time finding any sortof advantage for villager in this MU other than the potential gimping, and i have been on both sides of this one quite a few times. I actually think Lucas might win this one.

Edit: Oh and one more thing i forgot:

Shields. Defeat. Villager.

Villager is a top contender for worst grab in the game. You are *quite* safe in your shield when you face him, espically if he is in the air. He doesn't have the option to tomahawk your shield, so if you are on the ground in your shield and he is in the air he *has* to land away from you or eat a punish.

 

[PK Drako]

Edit: Sorry i dont know how to delete this.
I confused this thread with the video thread im sorry

 

[Login_Sinker]

Anyone wanna discuss Mario? I played several friendlies with one recently and couldn't win once. Challenging him feels exceptionally difficult because just about all of his moves come out faster. He's also good at getting in your face to make your PK fire zoning tough. What should we do in this MU?

 

[PK Drako]

Anyone wanna discuss Mario? I played several friendlies with one recently and couldn't win once. Challenging him feels exceptionally difficult because just about all of his moves come out faster. He's also good at getting in your face to make your PK fire zoning tough. What should we do in this MU?

I played against some mario's and i always do z-air and spacing f-air and b-air beacuse if he uses the cape to much pk fire is useless but you can always try to read if he is gonna shield or cape.
If you hit him with rope snake try to grab and start a combo and if he spams fireballs use wavebounce magnet to absorb them and then cancell the magnet by rolling backwards or jumping.
If mario is outstage try to edgeguard with pkfire down smash f-air or b-air.

Thats how i play against every mario and it works for me

 

[Kodystri]

I played against some mario's and i always do z-air and spacing f-air and b-air beacuse if he uses the cape to much pk fire is useless but you can always try to read if he is gonna shield or cape.
If you hit him with rope snake try to grab and start a combo and if he spams fireballs use wavebounce magnet to absorb them and then cancell the magnet by rolling backwards or jumping.
If mario is outstage try to edgeguard with pkfire down smash f-air or b-air.

Thats how i play against every mario and it works for me

Just saying, PK FIre is not useless. It is really good in this MU and if you get pushed back when he does cape it, you won't get hit.