Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[TewnLeenk]

"Super Smash Bros Roster suddenly attacked!"

Welcome to the Lucas Matchup Thread! This thread will be used to discuss Lucas's matchups in Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS.

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[TewnLeenk]

Reserving this post, all the other cool boards do it.

 

[TewnLeenk]

Open for business, boys. Let's get some matchup discussion going.

 

[Ventus55]

Does lucas have a bad against Roy or neutral

 

[Genclops]

I apologize if much of this is obvious or painting with broad strokes but I am happy to get the conversation started here.

• Lucas is absolutely excellent at gimping recoveries and pretty great off stage in general which makes him potentially one of the most effective characters against and a potentially great MU against // if you can get them off stage at mid-high percents. I play mac and marth-ish FE characters somewhat similar, in that I try to rack up some damage largely from a distance, keeping them away with pressure from PK Fire, Zair, PK Freeze etc, and reserving my throws for when they are at ideal percentages to try some off stage shenanigans or even a simple Dsmash edge guard depending on the situation. If they get in close to you before you are ready - jabs, Dtilts and SH-Nairs come out fast and are a good way to mix it up and get them off you. Additionally, if you read that they are going to SH at you (as to avoid a PK fire) or if Mac is going for his Side B, a quick well timed PK freeze can shut it down.

• A well timed Usmash can surprise an unsuspecting throwing a hydrant from above and send it flying back at him while he is still pretty high in the air. This tactic is also (pretty obviously) good against characters that like to go for strong vertical drop attacks from above like and - and if it works once can be great for mind games for the rest of the match, since they will likely be cautious to try the same tactic again.
• I personally have had some trouble with , and surprisingly, occasionally

 

[The_Devious]

how do you combat link?

 

[Genclops]

The most success I have had with Link is by Fsmashing back his tornado for surprise approaches, and punishing the end lag on his smash attacks and dash attack. Otherwise, they can keep me at a distance with multiple solid projectiles and my floaty approaches get stuffed by his superior reach and priority. I am certain I am playing him wrong, and just missing something obvious - but I can't seem to find anything that consistently works in the MU.I have classically played Fox, so this MU has never given me much trouble. But I would like to learn to play this MU better with Lucas.

 

[The_Devious]

The most success I have had with Link is by Fsmashing back his tornado for surprise approaches, and punishing the end lag on his smash attacks and dash attack. Otherwise, they can keep me at a distance with multiple solid projectiles and my floaty approaches get stuffed by his superior reach and priority. I am certain I am playing him wrong, and just missing something obvious - but I can't seem to find anything that consistently works in the MU.I have classically played Fox, so this MU has never given me much trouble. But I would like to learn to play this MU better with Lucas.

I too have always played fox. I have used that strategy with fox but since Lucas cant absorb the arrows, I just cant beat link.

 

[A Polar Bear]

Lucas seems to retain some of the same match-up troubles from Brawl. Fast characters with quick, disjointed hitboxes. Marth, Lucina and Roy are able to outrange his stubby little limbs, and it almost seems like their swords can outrange his tether in certain situations, not to mention their powerful out-of-shield options. It frequently comes down to taking advantage of them as they're recovering off stage, but smart players always mix up their high and low recovery times.

Despite having all the projectiles, Lucas can't camp as well as characters that have faster projectiles. Which is most other characters. It's annoying playing against Villager who spaces well with aerials and covers with loids, and even more so against Diddy, who can literally do any move and not worry about consequences.

But even all those pale against fighting the living nightmare that his Sheik. Her mobility and frame data, as well as an obscenely difficult to gimp recovery, along with her lightweight and small frame that makes comboing her a chore, turns her into what I believe to be Lucas' worst MU at the moment. I don't see a Lucas being able to beat an equal level Sheik without the craziest of reads or jankiest of PKT hits.

Otherwise, I think Lucas does quite well against the rest of the cast and especially well against the heavyweights, even Ike. But against the higher tiers, it always seems he's just a bit too slow on the ground and air, his attacks just out of range, and his grab, which honestly has confusingly short reach, becomes more of a liability against speedy smashers.

 

[PKBeam]

i think "The Battle Memory" would totally be a better name for this thread.

anyway

how do you combat link?

in this MU, link's bomb use is limited - he can't haphazardly throw them out at Lucas.
that's not to say that he can't camp Lucas, he does, but his options are slightly limited in this sense, therefore it's easier to predict his next action and you should capitalise on that.

like all campy characters, you just have to be really patient and try to minimalise your damage. once you get into midrange it's not safe for him to keep camping so he'll either run away or engage. PKF cancels boomerang and i think it ignites bombs. not sure about arrows but you wouldn't want to PKF them anyway.

once you get in, you have to be mindful of what you do - what Links will do offensively from a shield is grab, Up-B or drop it and Jab/Utilt. if you hit his shield with nair or dair, try to land them as far as possible behind him. if you time Dair perfectly he shouldn't be able to drop shield and Utilt it. do not land Jab3 on Link's shield. Zair and SHPKF are safe on his shield.

some players are really twitchy with their grab button. they're the ones that try to shieldgrab everything you do. Lucas has the tools to bait this and punish. Land Nair/Dair behind shield, or FF Zair and spotdodge/roll. Dair autocancels and Nair/Zair have minimal landing lag. If they miss a grab at point blank range, that's a free grab or Usmash if you react fast enough.

link pretty much kills with his entire moveset so once you reach 80% you have to start worrying because a tipper dash attack will take you out right there. what most links use is Ftilt/Utilt, but Uair and smashes also have to be watched. the best way for us to kill Link is probably a gimp. PKT1 is good for this, since it doesn't actually have (substantial) knockback- if he gets hit, he just starts falling and even half a second of him going "whaa?!" is enough to gimp him.

also, PKT1 can really screw up Up-Bs. if any of you other brawl Lucas mains know what happens when you PKT1 dolphin slash and Marth just flies up like in those freak TAS SDI vids, that happens here too. you could Bair/Dair spike Up-B as well, but PKT1 is free damage and you won't get gimped if you screw up.

Also if a Link Dairs your shield and bounces off you can get OoS Usmash off it if you react very fast If he FF Dairs and just lands on the ground, that can be Usmashed as well.

 

[n0b0dy]

how do you combat link?

It's probably a good idea to learn how to power shield all of Link's projectiles. That's a staple procedure against Link no matter what character you're playing. Once you've mastered that, it'll be really easy to approach. When you're finally able to get in close, watch out for Link's jab as many players like to use it to get you off their back.

 

[Tinkerer]

Villager main, Lucas secondary here. I feel like Lucas has a better time against Villager than Ness ever did, as he gets all the benefits Ness gets over Villager (small size, kill throws, pocket not being that dangerous) but has less of the downsides (PK Fire hits through the tree and Lloid, often hitting Villager, Magnet being better, harder to pocket gimp due to tether). It also helps that Villager has a pretty crap grab, so the incredible endlag on grab whiffs goes for both characters.

 

[The_Devious]

It's probably a good idea to learn how to power shield all of Link's projectiles. That's a staple procedure against Link no matter what character you're playing. Once you've mastered that, it'll be really easy to approach. When you're finally able to get in close, watch out for Link's jab as many players like to use it to get you off their back.

I've heard everyone say that, but link can hold his arrows so i dont know when they will be released and when they do they come out too fast for me to shield

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I feel like he struggles against characters like Ike, especially with his buffs, he's fast now and we have end lag on a lot of stuff. In my opinion, on stage he dominates us very hard, but offstage we can gimp him. If only our PKT1 worked a little better imo.

 

[PKBeam]

I've heard everyone say that, but link can hold his arrows so i dont know when they will be released and when they do they come out too fast for me to shield

him holding an arrow out is basically giving you a free approach. jump in the air and float towards him. if he still doesnt shoot, hit him with a nair. if you're too far away to reach him, PKT1.

 

[Kangaexe]

Honestly it seems like Lucas has a good time against Rob, with Rob's slow recovery and Lucas' amazing gimp game it really does make it in his favor. Secondly Rob's Gyro can be reflected and Laser can be absorbed

 

[Kodystri]

I feel like Lucas struggles with Sheik, Sonic, and Fox the most.

Sheik because, well its Sheik and she is super fast not to mention Needles are a pain to deal with

Sonic because Lucas really doesn't have a reliable way to stop Spin Dash aside from the Frame 22 PK Fire and a hard read aerial. Not to mention Sonic is super fast and hard to catch.

Fox really abuses our end lag and really hard to punish.

 

[NekoJubei]

I feel like Lucas struggles with Sheik, Sonic, and Fox the most.

Sheik because, well its Sheik and she is super fast not to mention Needles are a pain to deal with

Sonic because Lucas really doesn't have a reliable way to stop Spin Dash aside from the Frame 22 PK Fire and a hard read aerial. Not to mention Sonic is super fast and hard to catch.

Fox really abuses our end lag and really hard to punish.

If only we had PSI Shield to properly reflect stuff :v
We can heal 30% of Sheik's Up B so Sheik's F Throw to Up B is a nono
And since Sheik's Up B is a teleport we can easily Down Smash or Bair to cover the ledge
But The matchup is still hard :o

 

[PKBeam]

If only we had PSI Shield to properly reflect stuff :v
We can heal 30% of Sheik's Up B so Sheik's F Throw to Up B is a nono
And since Sheik's Up B is a teleport we can easily Down Smash or Bair to cover the ledge
But The matchup is still hard :o

uhh dude if you try holding out PSI magnet after getting thrown, you are going to have a bad time.

 

[NekoJubei]

uhh dude if you try holding out PSI magnet after getting thrown, you are going to have a bad time.

Dont think so

 

[The_Devious]

Tewnleenk, could you please edit roster table so it includes Lucas, Roy and Ryu? (even though we know Lucas v lucas is 50:50, it bothers me that Lucas is not there)

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Anyone else find the matchup against roy to be hard?

 

[FullMoon]

My experience with both of my mains make me feel that Lucas is going to struggle with Greninja in spite of his recovery better recovery.

Greninja has lots of disjoint and mobility so he easily outranges Lucas, who doesn't have anything like Ness's F-Air to keep him away. Not only that, but in spite of Lucas's grab reward, getting a grab on Greninja is going to be pretty tough with this mobility and range, thanks to it being a tether, Greninja can SHFF N-Air Lucas safely because any attempt at grabbing will be met with a jab.

PK Fire helps keep Greninja away, but the frog is fast enough to close-in on Lucas. Greninja's fall speed might help Lucas combo him for some time with things like Up-Tilt or N-Air.

Lucas has nothing on Greninja when it comes to edgeguarding other than the possibility of a B-Air spike (he might be able to get one if Greninja Shadow Sneaks at the ledge and he isn't hit/shields it but that's one of those things that only works on a unwitting opponent) while Greninja can't gimp Lucas very easily thanks to the tether (he can attempt to stage spike him while he's trying to climb though), but if Lucas is ever forced to use PK Thunder, gg.

My first impression of the Greninja MU for our sunflower boy is 60:40 in frog's favor. Lucas just lacks a lot of what makes Ness difficult for Greninja, he doesn't have a long lasting disjointed hitbox, has a bad grab and overall is not as strong as Ness (PK Thunder II doesn't kill nearly as well as Ness's, Ness's B-Throw kills earlier than any of his throws, etc).

 

[Genclops]

Anyone else find the matchup against roy to be hard?

I have not found it particularly difficult, you just have to play patiently. A lot of his attacks out range you when you are close up, but he is garbage off stage where you are strong and you certainly have the advantage when he isn't in your face. I have a tendency to spam a lot more PK Fires than I ever would in any other MU, to keep him approaching you -where you can maybe deal with him a lot better. I am fairly positive you can absorb his upsmash fire as an added bonus, but obviously be careful trying this. If you are coming back onto the stage, some Roy's try to charge their neutral special - if they do this and you aren't coming from below the stage you can get behind them and go for a Bair which is lethal at high percentages and gets him off stage either way where you have an extreme advantage. Once he is off stage, if you can get a fair, bair or pk fire off - it will be very difficult for him to recover - so treating him like little mac is a good method, except he isn't nearly as fast as little mac and doesn't have his super armor!

 

[Luco]

My experience with both of my mains make me feel that Lucas is going to struggle with Greninja in spite of his recovery better recovery.

Greninja has lots of disjoint and mobility so he easily outranges Lucas, who doesn't have anything like Ness's F-Air to keep him away. Not only that, but in spite of Lucas's grab reward, getting a grab on Greninja is going to be pretty tough with this mobility and range, thanks to it being a tether, Greninja can SHFF N-Air Lucas safely because any attempt at grabbing will be met with a jab.

PK Fire helps keep Greninja away, but the frog is fast enough to close-in on Lucas. Greninja's fall speed might help Lucas combo him for some time with things like Up-Tilt or N-Air.

Lucas has nothing on Greninja when it comes to edgeguarding other than the possibility of a B-Air spike (he might be able to get one if Greninja Shadow Sneaks at the ledge and he isn't hit/shields it but that's one of those things that only works on a unwitting opponent) while Greninja can't gimp Lucas very easily thanks to the tether (he can attempt to stage spike him while he's trying to climb though), but if Lucas is ever forced to use PK Thunder, gg.

My first impression of the Greninja MU for our sunflower boy is 60:40 in frog's favor. Lucas just lacks a lot of what makes Ness difficult for Greninja, namely a long lasting disjointed hitbox, a bad grab and overall not being as strong as Ness (PK Thunder II doesn't kill nearly as well as Ness's, Ness's B-Throw kills earlier than any of his throws, etc).

I can see this, although it's fair to mention, whilst nowhere near as threatening, Lucas does have Zair to help stuff Greninja's SH approaches, and if Lucas brings it back around to hit himself and not incur 1000 years of endlag, PKT1 as an edge-guarding tool is reasonable. Fair is probably more disjointed than Ness' Fair too, but I'm not sure if Lucas is going to go head to head with froggy on that and get the sweetspot most of the time. Froggy probably wins this one.

 

[FullMoon]

I can see this, although it's fair to mention, whilst nowhere near as threatening, Lucas does have Zair to help stuff Greninja's SH approaches, and if Lucas brings it back around to hit himself and not incur 1000 years of endlag, PKT1 as an edge-guarding tool is reasonable. Fair is probably more disjointed than Ness' Fair too, but I'm not sure if Lucas is going to go head to head with froggy on that and get the sweetspot most of the time. Froggy probably wins this one.

Oh yeah I forgot Lucas's Z-Air, it's the one move he has that really outranges Greninja, but just it isn't going to change much in the MU, the fact that only the snake's head has a hitbox can make hitting with it awkward too, especially when Greninja is short and he even runs while keeping himself at a low pose.

The thing that makes Lucas's F-Air inferior to Ness's in this MU is simply how long it lasts. Ness's lasts forever and walls Greninja out well unless he manages to space a F-Air. Lucas's ends very fast and so there's a lot less maneuvering to do around it. I'm pretty sure Greninja's F-Air has more range than Lucas's as well or at the very least they trade.

PK Thunder for edgeguarding is risky because of Shadow Sneak. Greninja can get to Lucas really fast thanks to it and the long lag on PK Thunder just makes Lucas a sitting duck waiting for a water sword to the face. If Lucas is close to the ledge then Greninja can even just kick him in the back for the kill too, Shadow Sneak has surprising kill potential especially when the back kick connects.

If you're going to pelt Greninja with something while he's offstage, PK Freeze is probably your best bet, but even then it's really easy to see coming so unless you do some sick mindgames you're probably not going to hit with it very often.

The real dealbreaker in this MU is really Lucas's grab. It just gives Greninja too much freedom to pressure him and Lucas really can't afford to miss a grab either because Greninja can be just devastating once he gets in. And when Lucas's throws are such an important part of his game... Yeah.

 

[TewnLeenk]

Tewnleenk, could you please edit roster table so it includes Lucas, Roy and Ryu? (even though we know Lucas v lucas is 50:50, it bothers me that Lucas is not there)

Table's fixed.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Oh yeah I forgot Lucas's Z-Air, it's the one move he has that really outranges Greninja, but just it isn't going to change much in the MU, the fact that only the snake's head has a hitbox can make hitting with it awkward too, especially when Greninja is short and he even runs while keeping himself at a low pose.

The thing that makes Lucas's F-Air inferior to Ness's in this MU is simply how long it lasts. Ness's lasts forever and walls Greninja out well unless he manages to space a F-Air. Lucas's ends very fast and so there's a lot less maneuvering to do around it. I'm pretty sure Greninja's F-Air has more range than Lucas's as well or at the very least they trade.

PK Thunder for edgeguarding is risky because of Shadow Sneak. Greninja can get to Lucas really fast thanks to it and the long lag on PK Thunder just makes Lucas a sitting duck waiting for a water sword to the face. If Lucas is close to the ledge then Greninja can even just kick him in the back for the kill too, Shadow Sneak has surprising kill potential especially when the back kick connects.

If you're going to pelt Greninja with something while he's offstage, PK Freeze is probably your best bet, but even then it's really easy to see coming so unless you do some sick mindgames you're probably not going to hit with it very often.

The real dealbreaker in this MU is really Lucas's grab. It just gives Greninja too much freedom to pressure him and Lucas really can't afford to miss a grab either because Greninja can be just devastating once he gets in. And when Lucas's throws are such an important part of his game... Yeah.

I feel as though Lucas struggles against most of the cast, especially because when people get in it's pretty bad since imo he doesnt have much to protect himself, and anybody with range can just destroy him since he cant safely harass a shield with up b and cancel it.

 

[FullMoon]

I feel as though Lucas struggles against most of the cast, especially because when people get in it's pretty bad since imo he doesnt have much to protect himself, and anybody with range can just destroy him since he cant safely harass a shield with up b and cancel it.

I don't quite agree, Lucas struggles with range, yeah, I can't see the sword characters being too fun for him to deal with (and Greninja is sorta a pseudo-sword character), but I don't think he's going to struggle against most.

Characters I see giving Lucas trouble: /

That's admittedly a lot of bad MUs at the upper half of the tier list, but this is just a first impressions thing.

If nothing else I think Lucas will have a good MU against and I think he deals with pretty well too.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I don't quite agree, Lucas struggles with range, yeah, I can't see the sword characters being too fun for him to deal with (and Greninja is sorta a pseudo-sword character), but I don't think he's going to struggle against most.

Characters I see giving Lucas trouble: /

That's admittedly a lot of bad MUs at the upper half of the tier list, but this is just a first impressions thing.

If nothing else I think Lucas will have a good MU against and I think he deals with pretty well too.

Thing is, I feel like it's decently easy to shield grab Lucas with Luigi, I can see the Falcon matchup being okay though.

I could see him going even, or maybe... MAYBE slight advantage. If you miss a grab Luigi can punish hard.

Falcon, I can't really tell yet. I feel like we win it maybe

 

[FullMoon]

Luigi is going to struggle hard to get in against Lucas because of PK Fire zoning and Z-Air. Lucas can camp him very well. Don't get too thirsty for grabs yourself and you should do fine against him, Luigi can't get through Lucas's zoning very well, and Fireballs are not a very good option either because PSI Magnet absorbs it and if Luigi tries to close in he can get hit by the hitbox or at least be forced to shield it.

 

[The_Devious]

I've been having success fighting. We can grab them while they are using light Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. (never faced a using that heavy input, so this might not work against that input) In a few cases I've been able to bait a focus attack (not sure what weight input, I think it's light) and then grab them before they hit me. We also have the choice to absorb or reflect Hadoken and we can stop their approach with PK Fire. We can also get them offstage so it's difficult for them to recover.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've been having success fighting. We can grab them while they are using light Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. (never faced a using that heavy input, so this might not work against that input) In a few cases I've been able to bait a focus attack (not sure what weight input, I think it's light) and then grab them before they hit me. We also have the choice to absorb or reflect Hadoken and we can stop their approach with PK Fire. We can also get them offstage so it's difficult for them to recover.

There is no light/heavy variation of focus attack, just how long he charges it. And you should careful baiting it against good Ryus because he can dash cancel it (FADC) to evade your hard punish.

Zoning and edgeguarding Ryu is all well and good, but once he's in footsie range things get dicey since even with PK
disjoints Ryu outranges and outdamages Lucas on a lot of his normals. Dsmash and fair especially are nasty safe pokes.
It should also be mentioned that Shakunetsu Hadoken (red multi-hit) heals very little compared to the normal blue, and the light,
slow-moving variations give Ryu enough time to make a move on your countermeasure.

It's close to even if you ask me. Lucas has more effective long-range zoning but Ryu stomps him in footsies.
Both can have trouble confirming a kill if they both play safe.

 

[PKBeam]

if he side B's your shield at the end of the attack or near an edge you can usmash OoS or just shieldgrab.
down-b's armour gets taken out by grabs and anything that hits twice. the cancel still has a bit of lag so if you're out of grab combo % then just nair him.

the blue hadouken does heal considerably but the fire one works like thoron. you only get heals off the first hit, which is terribly weak. absorb blue hadouken and reflect the fire one, unless for some reason you really need the heal.

when ryu is recovering, dsmash beats side-B and non sweetspotted up-B. don't stand at the ledge and carelessly use dsmash, because you'll just get knocked by an up-B.

avoid hitting his shield with anything he can up-B.

 

[Kangaexe]

There is no light/heavy variation of focus attack, just how long he charges it. And you should careful baiting it against good Ryus because he can dash cancel it (FADC) to evade your hard punish.

Zoning and edgeguarding Ryu is all well and good, but once he's in footsie range things get dicey since even with PK
disjoints Ryu outranges and outdamages Lucas on a lot of his normals. Dsmash and fair especially are nasty safe pokes.
It should also be mentioned that Shakunetsu Hadoken (red multi-hit) heals very little compared to the normal blue, and the light,
slow-moving variations give Ryu enough time to make a move on your countermeasure.

It's close to even if you ask me. Lucas has more effective long-range zoning but Ryu stomps him in footsies.
Both can have trouble confirming a kill if they both play safe.

Lucas' tether helps here a lot for poking if Ryu gets in but relying on such a bad poking tool against Ryu isnt very fun

 

[NekoJubei]

Um... arent we suppose to discuss each match up one by one?
Like first start discussing the Lucas VS Mario match up to follow the order of the roster
Sorry for being strict but i just want the thread to be more organized :3

 

[TewnLeenk]

Um... arent we suppose to discuss each match up one by one?
Like first start discussing the Lucas VS Mario match up to follow the order of the roster
Sorry for being strict but i just want the thread to be more organized :3

Have no fear! That'll come pretty soon. We're just getting organized and stuff.

 

[NekoJubei]

Have no fear! That'll come pretty soon. We're just getting organized and stuff.

Ooh i see! Thats good ;D!

 

[FullMoon]

I think instead of going through roster order we should talk about the most dominating characters in the meta first.

So, Sheik for the first week, then Rosalina, then I guess ZSS, etc.

 

[rosetta_stoned]

Being a ness main im mostly interested in mu's that are the most different between the 2.

im still lacking in experience with lucas but these are some of my impressions so far.

- shiek i felt was ness's worst mu. Unfortunately i feel lucas is even less equiped to deal with her. So far this has just been ****ing scary.

-sonic was a bit tricky for ness and am struggling with lucas atm. It very likely might be more of an experience thing tho as i just feel lost without ness's nair

- rosa was not a huge problem for me with ness but seems easier with lucas - likely by quite a bit.

- Luigi though feels like the biggest swing in lucas favour. It could be pretty tricky sometimes with ness but ive had alot of success with lucas zoning him out and not letting him get his dthrow.