Data Phrygia's Notebook - Lucas Matchup Discussion

[Kangaexe]

how does go against,and? never fought those characters with lucas.

I have trouble getting in agaisnt Robin, PK Fire does dmg to Luma

 

[toonbeoulve]

how does go against,and? never fought those characters with lucas.

• Keep yourself on the ground and don't fight him in the air since he combos easily and has better air speed. Use Z-air to space him out and from grabbing you. Charged down smash near the ledge will KO once off stage and PK thunder can gimp him as well.

• PK Fire helps damage Luma and PK freeze is also a good option but situational since it does major damage and you can do anything out of it. Like someone else mentioned, Rosalina's recovery is gimpable so up smash if you know they're going to go past above you or down smash/D-air near the ledge if they're recovering from below.
• Absorbing elthunder and arc thunder recovers a good percentage and his recovery is gimpable. I use Z-air to approach or short hop PK fire if he uses Arcfire. Not much else I can say about this matchup.

 

[Genclops]

I know I will catch a lot of crap for this, but I think the Rosaluma MU is in Lucas' favor. I play it from a distance, baiting out Luma until it dies, then go to combo dat ass. You can snipe Luma with PK Freeze mixups, and give it a hard time getting close to you with PK fire and forward smash. Once Luma is out of the way you will have a much easier time.Regarding Mario, be careful about his cape - since you have so much cooldown with many of Lucas' attacks, and relatively low priority on PKT2, you can get caught in a bad situation if he throws out a clever cape. Also, his slide attack can get tricky while he approaches you so you may have to read it for punish.

 

[Smog Frog]

from a theory standpoint, beats pretty handily. pretty much the entire foundation of his neutral(fireball)is invalidated by pk fire, fsmash, zair, and magnet. without his fireballs, he's pretty helpless to zoning. zair him out, sh pkf him out. if you're playing as lame as you can, then finds himself struggling to do much of anything, really. and our reward is pretty comparable to his, if i do say so myself. nair 3x->finisher(i normally do dair, but if they di it right i do fair/uair)deals a hefty 30%~. our grab is risky but the reward is well worth it. dthrow->dair does a solid 22% most of the time, and our very own hoo-hah kills at 110%~, on top of our numerous kill throws. while he does beat us when he gets in, realistically how often is that going to happen if you play optimally? if you play lame as **** and dont open yourself up he cant really do anything. his recovery is also very linear: he either recovers high with missile or low with up b. dsmash on the ledge covers his recovery very well. to his credit, he does body us once he finally gets in as we really only have 1 gtfo option(our frame 2 jab). once he gets in he wins, but he's not getting in often if you play the matchup optimally.

i'm tempted to say 65:35 but i dont think that'll go over well. so 6:4 it is.

 

[Kodystri]

from a theory standpoint, beats pretty handily. pretty much the entire foundation of his neutral(fireball)is invalidated by pk fire, fsmash, zair, and magnet. without his fireballs, he's pretty helpless to zoning. zair him out, sh pkf him out. if you're playing as lame as you can, then finds himself struggling to do much of anything, really. and our reward is pretty comparable to his, if i do say so myself. nair 3x->finisher(i normally do dair, but if they di it right i do fair/uair)deals a hefty 30%~. our grab is risky but the reward is well worth it. dthrow->dair does a solid 22% most of the time, and our very own hoo-hah kills at 110%~, on top of our numerous kill throws. while he does beat us when he gets in, realistically how often is that going to happen if you play optimally? if you play lame as **** and dont open yourself up he cant really do anything. his recovery is also very linear: he either recovers high with missile or low with up b. dsmash on the ledge covers his recovery very well. to his credit, he does body us once he finally gets in as we really only have 1 gtfo option(our frame 2 jab). once he gets in he wins, but he's not getting in often if you play the matchup optimally.

i'm tempted to say 65:35 but i dont think that'll go over well. so 6:4 it is.

You are really really underestimating Luigi if you think he can only get in with Fireballs. Also, you will have to land eventually, and that is where he gets his down throw combos. A thing call Shielding exists. A Smart Luigi will powershield you PK fire/zoning until he gets in.

 

[Smog Frog]

thing is, every character has a powershield. are you going to say that beats us because he can powershield too? he has very similar reward to . and "having to land eventually" implies that i'm spending most of my time way high in the air(hint: its only using zair/pkf once per short hop). also, worth mentioning that pk fire has 2 hits, so there's shield damage because you can only powershield the first one. if you're not playing really lame you're playing the matchup wrong.

 

[meleebrawler]

You are really really underestimating Luigi if you think he can only get in with Fireballs. Also, you will have to land eventually, and that is where he gets his down throw combos. A thing call Shielding exists. A Smart Luigi will powershield you PK fire/zoning until he gets in.

It's true that smart Luigis aren't TOO reliant on fireballs and have patience of their own, but the burden of approaching is still on him and it's a fairly heavy one with an equally smart Lucas.

When you say land, do you mean on the ground or hitting a kill move? Because Lucas won't be flying in the air much until Luigi jumps first (and his poor airspeed makes it easy for Lucas to space him out in that situation).

 

[Kodystri]

It's true that smart Luigis aren't TOO reliant on fireballs and have patience of their own, but the burden of approaching is still on him and it's a fairly heavy one with an equally smart Lucas.

When you say land, do you mean on the ground or hitting a kill move? Because Lucas won't be flying in the air much until Luigi jumps first (and his poor airspeed makes it easy for Lucas to space him out in that situation).

You know as you are saying PK Fire/Zair spam, and we win the MU is like saying gimp Ness's PK Thunder with Pocket from Villager and you win the MU 70:30(Not true at all, its either even or in Ness's favor). Don't forget the moves STALLLES. It will do mediocre damage eventually. Luigi has trouble approaching yes, but it doesn't stop him from getting those juicy grabs and combo us into oblivion. So about 4 PK Fires will do about the same damage of 1 Down Throw Combo(at low percents) and 3 PK Fires per down throw combo after that. And you are going to have to jump or roll away to continue zoning as you will eventually push yourself on the edge of the stage. So that is where Luigi will either hit you with an aerial or grab you. Luigi cleanly beats our aerials. Our grabs reward does not compare to Luigis. And Luigi can edgeguard with Down B just as well as we can edgeguard him. This MU is definitely in Luigi's favor. Idk what Luigis are you facing, but they will get that grab and combo you to oblivion. The only advantage WE have in this MU is absorbing the fireballs and PK fire spacing. Thats it. Luigi is harder to punish and Jabs can be shield grabbed if you think that will always keep Luigi away. Almost all of our moves are punishable on Shield besides a well spaced PK Fire, Zair, and Bair(Only if not powershielded). The others are either tied or Luigi wins. Luigi has better grabs, aerials, smashes, less endlag, and better frame data. Like I said, we both can edgeguard each other extremely well, but I think this MU is in Luigi's favor.

Also, play Mr. ConCon or Boss before you say the MU is 35;65(or 40:60) and if you beat them with a good lead, I will believe you.

 

[Smog Frog]

you know that pk fire pushes you back and you can retreat/move forward during zair? we're completely mobile during zoning. the grab reward we possess may not be as good as his but its certainly comparable. and he has absolutely no traction; lots of things are safe on his shield. you have to be good at camping to win the matchup; that includes smart movement, spacial awareness, and knowledge of how your moves interact with other hitboxes. i'd say this applies to every character against him, but moreso here. from what you're saying, it doesnt sound like you're really that good at zoning and camping(which is nothing to be ashamed of; nobody really goes into a fighting game thinking that they'll lame everyone out). and if he gets hit by a projectile, he's back at square one trying to approach.

 

[Kodystri]

you know that pk fire pushes you back and you can retreat/move forward during zair? we're completely mobile during zoning. the grab reward we possess may not be as good as his but its certainly comparable. and he has absolutely no traction; lots of things are safe on his shield. you have to be good at camping to win the matchup; that includes smart movement, spacial awareness, and knowledge of how your moves interact with other hitboxes. i'd say this applies to every character against him, but moreso here. from what you're saying, it doesnt sound like you're really that good at zoning and camping(which is nothing to be ashamed of; nobody really goes into a fighting game thinking that they'll lame everyone out). and if he gets hit by a projectile, he's back at square one trying to approach.

Did you not read a single thing I said? I said eventually you will be at the edge of the stage. and THAT IS where Luigi will punish you. And if you jump beforehand, Luigi can punish that with his super fast aerials. True, you can mix it up, but eventuallty he will be able to punish you. I fought many Lucas's(Granted, not with Luigi, but with others) and I can consistently shield all the PK Fires and Zairs thrown at me and can punish when I see an opening.

To the comment about saying I don't know how to camp. I know how to camp, I fking mained Mii Gunner, one of the most campiest characters in the game and keep awayiest. People found ways to punish my Fair zoning, people found ways to punish my missles, grenades , flame pillars, etc, some of those are really really good Luigis. It isn't easy, for them, but the amount that I do to them usually equals to one grab. I know what I am talking about, so don't assume I am terrible at camping.

Also, I didn't say play aggressive. I know how to fight Luigis( I lame them out witih Nair/Bair spacing with Ness and PK fire spam as Lucas vs Luigi), but doesn't mean the MU is hard. PK Fire spamming and Zair spamming will only take you so far. Shields exists.

Also, we eventualy need to get the kill, and another way Luigi can punish us. PK Fire won't kill unless used at edgeguarding or they are at super high percents(Which i have done a few times) But one grab from Luigi can easily kill at at 80% depending on the stage.

One last thing, if Luigi has a lead, he doesn't need to approach lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Did you not read a single thing I said? I said eventually you will be at the edge of the stage. and THAT IS where Luigi will punish you. And if you jump beforehand, Luigi can punish that with his super fast aerials. True, you can mix it up, but eventuallty he will be able to punish you. I fought many Lucas's(Granted, not with Luigi, but with others) and I can consistently shield all the PK Fires and Zairs thrown at me and can punish when I see an opening.

To the comment about saying I don't know how to camp. I know how to camp, I fking mained Mii Gunner, one of the most campiest characters in the game and keep awayiest. People found ways to punish my Fair zoning, people found ways to punish my missles, grenades , flame pillars, etc, some of those are really really good Luigis. It isn't easy, for them, but the amount that I do to them usually equals to one grab. I know what I am talking about, so don't assume I am terrible at camping.

Also, I didn't say play aggressive. I know how to fight Luigis( I lame them out witih Nair/Bair spacing with Ness and PK fire spam as Lucas vs Luigi), but doesn't mean the MU is hard. PK Fire spamming and Zair spamming will only take you so far. Shields exists.

Also, we eventualy need to get the kill, and another way Luigi can punish us. PK Fire won't kill unless used at edgeguarding or they are at super high percents(Which i have done a few times) But one grab from Luigi can easily kill at at 80% depending on the stage.

One last thing, if Luigi has a lead, he doesn't need to approach lol.

Well normally it would be pretty hard to dodge Luigi's aerials but his poor airspeed plus the fact none of his aerials except nair linger means it's not too hard to dodge them in neutral if you're dead set on evading and you're generally in the clear once you've dodged a single one.

Also there is no way Luigi can force Lucas to approach, we can eat his fireballs for sustenance if he tries and there's nothing he can do to stop or punish it, especially not now that they have more lag. Or we can bat them back if we don't need healing at the moment. Either way it's a losing scenario for Luigi to try to get Lucas to approach, and it's not like he can outmaneuver us to camp.

 

[Kangaexe]

A Luigi off stage is a Luigi struggling.

Lucas' disjointed aireals allow saftey when edgegurading recoveries with hitboxes, plus PKThunder'ing Luigi's Side-B can screw up his day.

As for the on stage game...

Luigi has one of the best grounded games, his aireal movement is incredible, allowing him to not have to commit to much. BUT! The way Lucas has the advantage is with his disjointed moves, we beat out most of his moves by hitting with the Hexagon part of Lucas' moves.

Also we have a jab lock out of throw combo so use that please...

 

[Kodystri]

Well normally it would be pretty hard to dodge Luigi's aerials but his poor airspeed plus the fact none of his aerials except nair linger means it's not too hard to dodge them in neutral if you're dead set on evading and you're generally in the clear once you've dodged a single one.

Also there is no way Luigi can force Lucas to approach, we can eat his fireballs for sustenance if he tries and there's nothing he can do to stop or punish it, especially not now that they have more lag. Or we can bat them back if we don't need healing at the moment. Either way it's a losing scenario for Luigi to try to get Lucas to approach, and it's not like he can outmaneuver us to camp.

If Luigi has a lead, Lucas has too.

 

[meleebrawler]

A Luigi off stage is a Luigi struggling.

Lucas' disjointed aireals allow saftey when edgegurading recoveries with hitboxes, plus PKThunder'ing Luigi's Side-B can screw up his day.

As for the on stage game...

Luigi has one of the best grounded games, his aireal movement is incredible, allowing him to not have to commit to much. BUT! The way Lucas has the advantage is with his disjointed moves, we beat out most of his moves by hitting with the Hexagon part of Lucas' moves.

Also we have a jab lock out of throw combo so use that please...

The only thing incredible about Luigi's air mobility is his first jump height, everything else is either very bad (lateral speed) or average (fall speed). Not to be rude, but by your logic Falco's air mobility is godly since he can go up AND down really fast while having comparable lateral speed. It's not his movement that gives little commitment: it's his sheer attack speed.

If Luigi has a lead, Lucas has too.

And by doing that Luigi is only jeopardizing said lead. Throwing fireballs will only result in Lucas lowering his damage to the point where he can afford to take some risks, or he just bats them back for some cheeky damage. Not throwing fireballs and not approaching just lets Lucas poke and throw stuff at Luigi all day until he has to move. That's NEGATIVE progress in both cases, and since Luigi can't outmaneuver Lucas either there's just no way a Luigi trying to lame Lucas out will come out on top unless there's very little time left.

 

[Kodystri]

I just want to face Palm right now. You guys are literally acting like Luigi can only fireball... The Ness boards agree that Luigi is a bad MU even tho Ness can absorb.

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt have a zair or our pk fire, thats key imo

also if you have the impression, and arent clones or even semi clones.

 

[JesterJaded]

I'd just like to drop by and take a shot-gun to the notion that Luigi has better grab rewards than Lucas in the match-up. The D-throw > Footstool > death setup works on Luigi from 0 - 56 or so %.

Carry on.

 

[Kodystri]

I'd just like to drop by and take a shot-gun to the notion that Luigi has better grab rewards than Lucas in the match-up. The D-throw > Footstool > death setup works on Luigi from 0 - 56 or so %.

Carry on.

Link me to a Lucas doing the Down Throw Footstool combos in tournament please.

Oh wait there isn't one. Plus Luigi/'s Downthrow is way more consistent and can kill way earlier than ours will ever accomplish not to mention how easy it is for Luigi to get the grabs COMPARED to ours.

doesnt have a zair or our pk fire, thats key imo

also if you have the impression, and arent clones or even semi clones.

And did I say they are clones?

I may agree it "could" be in our favor, but 65:35 in Lucas's favor in your opinion, but changing it to 60:40 because of other people's opinion is quite absurd. Its only 55:45 at the best and 45:55 at the worst. I don't think its higher or lower than that.


After reading this, please read all of my posts THOROUGHLY before you respond again. I feel like you just read one of my lines and make an argument I already countered. I think it was you guys who made the trolling Lucas MU Thread a month ago saying random stuff.

And ffs, LUIGI DOES NOT NEED TO RELY OF FIREBALLS TO GET THE GRAB. Get that out of your head. Please. Its so annoying. I guess according to that logic, Rosalina wins vs Lucas because Rosalina can gimp Lucas.and can absorb PK Fire with Down B.

OH I should be clear, the Rosalina part was sarcasm, before you get thoughts in your head to think I was being serious. I can see you guys falling for that.

Please, think before you come up with more dumb arguments. At least @Earthbound360 kept me debating instead of me just trying to argue against a dead dog.


Edit: Sorry this sounds a little harsh, but I literally feel annoyed about the arguments you guys make. Also the fact you are trying to make me look like a ****ing idiot whenever you can.

 

[Smog Frog]

his neutral is pretty polarized around fireballs. they're the only way he's getting grabs in neutral outside of a mistake. what other setups does he have into grabs that arent reliant on incredibly obvious/reactable things?

and you're making way too many assumptions about my logic. its coming across as a personal attack. i admit i may have been a bit presumptuous about statements i made in response to yours, but thats no grounds for personal attacks.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Luigi can approach with SH fairs, walking and shielding zair/side b, and dash grab along with his fireballs. What can Lucas do when Luigi manages to get in?

 

[Smog Frog]

jab. its frame 2 and is frame 3?? i think.

 

[Kodystri]

Luigi's is Frame 2.

 

[NekoJubei]

Lucas VS Luigi.. that's hard x.x
We literally have to run away all the time and MAAAYBE approach when we have the chance
Anyways... of course, we have to keep Luigi away from us with our Wavebounce PK Fires,Z-Air and when there is a chance, PK Freeze to eat up his shield while pushing him far away thanks to his iceskating boots.
Our main goal in this match up is to keep him away from us,lame him out and avoid getting grabbed

 

[JesterJaded]

Link me to a Lucas doing the Down Throw Footstool combos in tournament please.

Oh wait there isn't one. .

This is a ridiculous argument. The character has barely been out for two months, and you're requesting top-level performances with the character. It's a straw-man. Just because there has yet to be a skilled player utilizing this setup doesn't mean you can disregard that a single grab can kill Luigi in this match-up.

Plus Luigi/'s Downthrow is way more consistent and can kill way earlier than ours will ever accomplish

Not true. Nothing kills before 0.

not to mention how easy it is for Luigi to get the grabs COMPARED to ours.

I'll concede this one considering Lucas' tether grab, but Luigi has to get in to get the grab, which will be difficult but not impossible for him.

Now I'd like to address the previous topic on zoning. While I haven't seen your playstyle, from what I can gather from your posts, you seem to be missing the point, as is a good handful of other users here. Zoning isn't about walling out your opponent for the entire game, it's about limiting your opponent's options in the neutral and conditioning your opponent. Do you know what happens to a power-shielding Luigi when they try to break neutral? They get tomahawk grabbed because the zoner conditioned them to shield. A smart Lucas player will know Luigi's options to break neutral and how to preempt against them. This is why Lucas' zoning game is considered good, because he removes so many approach options from projectile players and can space well.

The reason why I believe Lucas is favorable in this match-up is that Luigi will have to break neutral at least two or three times to grab a stock, whereas a single mistake from Luigi opens up a kill option at ALMOST ANY PERCENT. D-throw > footstool from 0 - 56 %, Fair > jablock > Usmash a little higher than that, and PK Hoo-Hah + Upthrow / Backthrow / Forward throw at above 100%. A skilled Lucas could potentially kill Luigi at any time so long as there's a mistake to capitalize on or a read to grab.

 

[Smog Frog]

tbf getting a 0-death from the dthrow is impractical at this time. however, a 0-50 is very possible. its just so hard to rep the lock setup. maybe in a couple years we'll have some doing 2+ reps, but at this point in time its impractical.

 

[JesterJaded]

tbf getting a 0-death from the dthrow is impractical at this time. however, a 0-50 is very possible. its just so hard to rep the lock setup. maybe in a couple years we'll have some doing 2+ reps, but at this point in time its impractical.

You make a valid point, but realistically how often are you going to get a grab at 0%? If you're zoning for the majority of the match you may not get a grab until say 20 or 30%, which I believe only requires one or two repetitions to KO. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not entirely sure on that one.

 

[JesterJaded]

You make a valid point, but realistically how often are you going to get a grab at 0%? If you're zoning for the majority of the match you may not get a grab until say 20 or 30%, which I believe only requires one or two repetitions to KO. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not entirely sure on that one.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Biggest problem in the Lucas v Luigi match-up is Luigi's Nair.
But, yeah. Lucas wins neutral against Luigi. As long as you ban Battlefield and Lylat that is.

 

[SpaceDong]

I'm pretty sure we struggle against heavy zoning characters. Characters like and

I honestly think that our time against Rosalina isn't all that bad, PK Fire helps us a ton in neutral and it damages luma. We don't NEED to use PK Thunder if we can recover properly and our kill set ups are pretty good.

That being said, I'm mostly a Fox main anyways, but for Rosa and Luigi I prefer using Lucas.

 

[JesterJaded]

I'm pretty sure we struggle against heavy zoning characters. Characters like and

I honestly think that our time against Rosalina isn't all that bad, PK Fire helps us a ton in neutral and it damages luma. We don't NEED to use PK Thunder if we can recover properly and our kill set ups are pretty good.

That being said, I'm mostly a Fox main anyways, but for Rosa and Luigi I prefer using Lucas.

I wonder, is it possible to force Link to approach? Couldn't we theoretically play the come-and-get-me game by eating his projectiles?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I wonder, is it possible to force Link to approach? Couldn't we theoretically play the come-and-get-me game by eating his projectiles?

Not really, unless if you have a sizeable lead and aren't afraid to z-air for 5 minutes straight.(Which is really fun) Biggest problem with any character that has a quickish projectile that we can't absorb is that we can't PK-fire zone because you will get hit by stuff. Link doesn't even need to powershield to block so you can't force stuff anyway. I personally think TL is one of the hardest match-ups for Lucas because he's small and his boomerang can negate any pk-fire zoning.

Hardest Match-ups in order imo:

 

[JesterJaded]

Not really, unless if you have a sizeable lead and aren't afraid to z-air for 5 minutes straight.(Which is really fun) Biggest problem with any character that has a quickish projectile that we can't absorb is that we can't PK-fire zone because you will get hit by stuff. Link doesn't even need to powershield to block so you can't force stuff anyway. I personally think TL is one of the hardest match-ups for Lucas because he's small and his boomerang can negate any pk-fire zoning.

Hardest Match-ups in order imo:

I agree on the TL matchup, it can potentially be very easy to frame trap Lucas with up-thrown bombs and the return on the boomerang, in addition to Zair / PK Fire zoning having a blind spot at a diagonal angle, which Toon Link excels in against other zoners. Lucas would be forced to approach in that situation, but I find it hard to believe it would be difficult for Lucas to get in against Toon Link, and if he does Tink doesn't have the best of get-off-me options. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting grabbed either unless you're at B-throw kill percent, since his throw conversions are crap. Lucas has the potential to combo Tink into oblivion, he just has to get in.

That said, some things to look out for in this matchup are:

- Always eat the boomerang with Zair, even if they miss you can't afford to get frame trapped on the return.

- Tinks' bread and butter combo tools are bombs, so absorb them when you can. They may try to convert on instinct, so you may be able to get them with the Magnet hitbox.

- Besides Zair, most everything in Tink's tool kit is heavily punishable; this is fantastic news in our matchup, considering how brutal Lucas' punishment game is. Baiting out Tink's grab or other laggy answers to approaches can earn you huge rewards here.

- While Zair is fun, shield is your best friend against Tink considering his tether grab and poor throw follow ups. Tink may still however attempt to punish you for making a habit of shielding, so spot dodging a read grab can potentially help you win neutral.

Basically, breaking Neutral will be hard, but Lucas' reward far outweighs Tink's that it's hard to say if it's truly a bad matchup. It will be decided on how much damage you can deal once you break neutral.

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

Anyone else who struggles against good megaman players?

 

[Waael]

So far in my experiences:

Lucas against these characters:

Wario: +1 (PK Fire on Wario's BIKE so awesome)
Luigi: +1?
Mario: -1 - I felt that Ness has way better tools in this matchup
Yoshi: +1
Diddy: +1 (Whenever diddy tosses a banana and its thrown Mid-air PK Fire hits the banana and the end animation hits Diddy.)

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Mario: -1 - I felt that Ness has way better tools in this matchup

I've played this match-up a lot and thanks to that grab buff it's +1 imo.
You can zone the living crap out of Mario and there isn't anything he can do about it as long as you wavebounce your PK-fire. He can attempt to zone as well but you heal so much with every fireball that it really isn't worth it. Also you can punish uncharged Up-smash and F-smash with throw now which is neat and Mario's recovery is extremely predictable and somewhat easily gimped.

Any tips for battling Yoshi? I feel like that is one of the hardest match-ups out there for Lucas. Can't really play neutral against him with the eggs and you can't approach either because Lucas is so floaty combined with Yoshi's N-air outprioritising everything before you can even throw a attack out there. Combine that with one of the best Up-smashes in the game and you have a pretty hard match-up imo.

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

I've played this match-up a lot and thanks to that grab buff it's +1 imo.
You can zone the living crap out of Mario and there isn't anything he can do about it as long as you wavebounce your PK-fire. He can attempt to zone as well but you heal so much with every fireball that it really isn't worth it. Also you can punish uncharged Up-smash and F-smash with throw now which is neat and Mario's recovery is extremely predictable and somewhat easily gimped.

The dtilt combined with the grab buff helped this MU, i aggree - but idk if im ready to say that Lucas is favored, the aerial fireball dair approach is still really hard to punish imo.

 

[EclipseSmash]

Can anyone give me help as to what I should do when Wario is offstage?

 

[NekoJubei]

Can anyone give me help as to what I should do when Wario is offstage?

Try to PK Fire the Bike, it will knock him out I think

 

[JesterJaded]

How are our matchups against the Fire Emblem gang? From what I've seen it looks like we can zone Marth, Lucina, and Roy out pretty hard, and getting the grab doesn't seem too difficult. Their predictable recoveries could give us an advantage in edgeguarding as well.

 

[Kodystri]

Can we actually start the discussions? Like for each MU. Its been almost 2 months.