Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

[Nu~]

How possible?

Her Uair is a disjoint, but the hydrant travels through it because it can't do enough damage to launch it.

 

[Smasher89]

So what i know from the Rosalinaperspective is that Pacman dont seem to have any good aggression that cant be answered too by good reactions, so as long as shes got the midstagecontrol pacman will usually try to get some weak hits here and there to chipdamage to win. Thats what i thought before and it got confirmed in the dabuz vs abadangoset on apex. Some fruitcombos seems legit but the gravitationalpull prob works good since its kinda fast when done in the air. Stealing keys are so nice too :D

 

[BSP]

@NachoOfCheese
@Paper Maribro
@NimbusSpark
@ revengeska
@Pacack

I've seen all of you mention something negative about Rosalina. Take a look at these because they show exactly why I'm hard pressed to give her an advantage in the MU anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txrfFwrgkZE - game 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JpMWXOx8Xo - game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHrPUZ1PMhI - game 3

My theory vs. Rosalina put into practice against a non-random player.

This is a top 15 player on Anther's Ladder.

Everything I said in #227 is spot on. Pac-Man wins neutral and doesn't have to approach.

And @4:25 in game 1 shows why Rosalina can't sit back and shield. Luma dies.

 

[Nu~]

And then, if Rosa gets the percent lead (unlikely) we can use my method of mid range aggressive play to gain it back.

Then proceed to sit back and camp her out again lol.

 

[BSP]

And then, if Rosa gets the percent lead (unlikely) we can use my method of mid range aggressive play to gain it back.

Then proceed to sit back and camp her out again lol.

If she really wants to play hardball and sit back with the lead, we can get a Key, Bell, Galaxian, or Melon in hand and walk to midrange. Since hand thrown fruit can't be picked back up, we risk nothing from her GP'ing it and can probably punish her for attempting to do so. If she blocks instead, take your time to KO Luma and continue until she realizes playing chicken with a 15% fast projectile, paralyzer, a combo machine, or a mine that Luma can't block isn't a good idea.

In other words, if she is foolish enough to sit back, do what you said originally, or do what you said with Fruit in hand to be GP safe. Rosalina is extremely compelled to approach at all times.

Also, when Rosalina players catch on and stop GP'ing launched hydrants, here's counterplay for each scenario:

Rolling, Shielding and Side stepping all entail Luma dying, so they are of your least concern. Still, trampoline will beat these options along with being incredibly safe.

If Rosalina or Luma try to attack your hydrant instead of GP'ing, punish their lag with a Key, or run up and attack/grab/whatever.

If the duo jumps, pressure them for willingly going into the air. Hydrant may still hit Luma unless they jump really high. If they continue jumping, try throwing in a key to snipe them with. Pressure their landing, and also realize that the jump response is nearly a death sentence for Luma since you can run to their landing spot, shield, and then Dair it OoS.

 

[revengeska]

@NachoOfCheese
@Paper Maribro
@NimbusSpark
@ revengeska
@Pacack

I've seen all of you mention something negative about Rosalina. Take a look at these because they show exactly why I'm hard pressed to give her an advantage in the MU anymore.



Everything I said in #227 is spot on. Pac-Man wins neutral and doesn't have to approach.

And @4:25 in game 1 shows why Rosalina can't sit back and shield. Luma dies.

I have to say, reading these boards on top of revisiting the matchup has at least convinced me that the matchup is not unwinnable. It is going to take an extra amount of work in the matchup for the results to start swinging in my favor.

However, I currently live in a world of customs, being currently legal in our local tournaments. Shooting star bits have proved to be devastating as it appears to force the approach. The only times I've found where fruit could be charged is when Rosalina is in a disadvantageous position(returning to stage, up in the air, etc) or off-stage(Rosa going after you can be a scary thing). I did recently post a few videos on YouTube against perhaps Minnesota's top Rosalina player, those should outline some of my struggles.

Good job on those matches by the way. I've only watched the first one so far but will get to the other two.

Edit: I know, I know, power pellet. I'll try that to see if it'll block star bits on the ground when I get a chance.

 

[Firedemon0]

I have to say, reading these boards on top of revisiting the matchup has at least convinced me that the matchup is not unwinnable. It is going to take an extra amount of work in the matchup for the results to start swinging in my favor.

However, I currently live in a world of customs, being currently legal in our local tournaments. Shooting star bits have proved to be devastating as it appears to force the approach. The only times I've found where fruit could be charged is when Rosalina is in a disadvantageous position(returning to stage, up in the air, etc) or off-stage(Rosa going after you can be a scary thing). I did recently post a few videos on YouTube against perhaps Minnesota's top Rosalina player, those should outline some of my struggles.

Good job on those matches by the way. I've only watched the first one so far but will get to the other two.

Edit: I know, I know, power pellet. I'll try that to see if it'll block star bits on the ground when I get a chance.

Shooting star bits is a worse Falco laser. The way around those is to hide behind or above hydrant, and launch, the end lag will likely lead to a reaction GP or shield. Letting you alleviate that pressure.

 

[BSP]

I have to say, reading these boards on top of revisiting the matchup has at least convinced me that the matchup is not unwinnable. It is going to take an extra amount of work in the matchup for the results to start swinging in my favor.

However, I currently live in a world of customs, being currently legal in our local tournaments. Shooting star bits have proved to be devastating as it appears to force the approach. The only times I've found where fruit could be charged is when Rosalina is in a disadvantageous position(returning to stage, up in the air, etc) or off-stage(Rosa going after you can be a scary thing). I did recently post a few videos on YouTube against perhaps Minnesota's top Rosalina player, those should outline some of my struggles.

Good job on those matches by the way. I've only watched the first one so far but will get to the other two.

Edit: I know, I know, power pellet. I'll try that to see if it'll block star bits on the ground when I get a chance.

Grounded pellet does block grounded shooting star bits. In customs, we have even more of an advantage with the on fire hydrant. If Rosalina doesn't GP it away immediately, Luma will die on the ground with near certainty. Go plant it near her and force her to do something about it. Use it to heal yourself or punish her.

BTW Guardian Luma will still suck in our projectiles, but it does not work on hydrants.

As far as the matches go, I'd say do what I did in mine. Like you said, power pellet is key.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

You could also charge fruit and get a Z-Droppable bonus when she Star Bits.

 

[fromundaman]

@NachoOfCheese
@Paper Maribro
@NimbusSpark
@ revengeska
@Pacack

I've seen all of you mention something negative about Rosalina. Take a look at these because they show exactly why I'm hard pressed to give her an advantage in the MU anymore.



Everything I said in #227 is spot on. Pac-Man wins neutral and doesn't have to approach.

And @4:25 in game 1 shows why Rosalina can't sit back and shield. Luma dies.

Heh, we seem to playthe rosa matchup very differently. I didn't realize mid range camping was so effective; I tend to play a lot like Shiek or Mario would: Find an opening and once I'm in be super aggro until she forces me back out.
It also seems to work.
Good to see multiple styles can work on this character.

 

[BSP]

Heh, we seem to playthe rosa matchup very differently. I didn't realize mid range camping was so effective; I tend to play a lot like Shiek or Mario would: Find an opening and once I'm in be super aggro until she forces me back out.
It also seems to work.
Good to see multiple styles can work on this character.

Funny. I just watched basically the entirety of the last airbender this weekend and thought about with element I was closest to. If this game is any indication, it's water. Water represents change in that show, the key trait of the watebenders' fighting is adaptation. That's Pac-Man in a nutshell. We adapt to the MU. Specifically for the Rosalina MU, I did what the waterbenders did best. Noticed GP, adapted to GP, and made her greatest strength one of her weaknesses in the MU since we can take advantage of it. Can anyone else force Rosalina to approach like we can?

 

[Nu~]

Funny. I just watched basically the entirety of the last airbender this weekend and thought about with element I was closest to. If this game is any indication, it's water. Water represents change in that show, the key trait of the watebenders' fighting is adaptation. That's Pac-Man in a nutshell. We adapt to the MU. Specifically for the Rosalina MU, I did what the waterbenders did best. Noticed GP, adapted to GP, and made her greatest strength one of her weaknesses in the MU since we can take advantage of it. Can anyone else force Rosalina to approach like we can?

No one in this game has that ability except for us. Fire elemental here.

Explains my passion for this character, my overzealous nature ( ^^; ), and my need to come up with creative solutions to our problems.

Huh, I remember a long time ago when I said that we don't lose the rosa matchup. No one believed me lol.
I looked at GP and said, "I want to make that thing useless" so I started to come up with a mid range game plan. Picking up fruit fallen GP and punishing rosa for it is fun.

 

[revengeska]

Shooting star bits is a worse Falco laser. The way around those is to hide behind or above hydrant, and launch, the end lag will likely lead to a reaction GP or shield. Letting you alleviate that pressure.

Grounded pellet does block grounded shooting star bits. In customs, we have even more of an advantage with the on fire hydrant. If Rosalina doesn't GP it away immediately, Luma will die on the ground with near certainty. Go plant it near her and force her to do something about it. Use it to heal yourself or punish her.

BTW Guardian Luma will still suck in our projectiles, but it does not work on hydrants.

As far as the matches go, I'd say do what I did in mine. Like you said, power pellet is key.

I did use On Fire Hydrant during my games. My opponent agreed with me when I surmised that it does real work in the matchup. Power pellet blocking does appear to be the way to go though as I can't really use that hydrant custom for that purpose. I'll have to put in some more work when I get the chance.

 

[dragontamer]

@ BSP : I'll say that the use of DAir in the matchup seemed absolutely key. The RosaLuma player got "locked out" of Luma almost perpetually against you. One-Dair KOs vs Luma all day, every day.

It is strange to see a matchup where Dair is so useful. I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[Nu~]

People REALLY underestimate Dair

 

[BSP]

OK I got to play some games vs. Dabuz. We did a Bo5 and it ended 3-2 his favor.

Every game went to time, and whoever got the first stock in the match won.

My hydrant spam strategy did what I predicted: instead of GP'ing them, he started jumping over it super high to keep Luma alive. The problem is catching Rosalina when she does that. She's still pretty quick in the air.

However, it goes both ways. If Pac-Man takes the first stock, catching him with Rosalina is a pain too. Trampoline does work.

Best stages for Pac-Man are ones with no platforms so Rosalina has trouble when landing, so FD, Duck Hunt, and T&C.

I repeat: you can't lose the first stock or you've got an uphill battle coming.

Also, this MU would kill this game. Be thankful Pac-Man isn't popular.

 

[BSP]

Double post but I want to tag @ Dabuz ; You mind saying what you thought? Please tell them that the 2% did change your strategy a bit.

 

[Dabuz]

Pretty much was BSP said.

So from my perspective, basically the smart thing/ what BSP did was side-b as a reaction to GP, as long as he didn't do it too early, I wouldn't be able to punish the side-Bs, and I can't afford to let him get constant 2%, it builds up fast.

I started figuring out near the end I can just run into trampolines, fair, and then catch pacman in landing lag, but it's annoying.

Dair is punishable on block and this is one of the few MUs where killing Luma is not worth taking damage.

Key is so important, it's what makes Rosa have to respect pacman when landing, because i have to always be ready to GP it. If I grab key though, or any fruit for that matter, it's basically free damage for me.

Something I thought of after the matches was a good way to punish hydrant drop, so I want to try that, but the worst part of this MU is that I don't have a real way to punish hydrant drop, all I can do is GP it mid fall and reset the situation.

It's still Rosa's favor for sure, but not super amazing or her, 6-4? Both characters can kill each other and do damage equally as well, and whoever gets the first kill really should just win. Even a decent % lead can be game deciding.

 

[revengeska]

I think we should also make note of available customs in the matchup. In particular, the On Fire hydrant. This obviously is very different from the normal hydrant, and deserves it's own discussion on how it changes the matchup.

As a competitive chess player, it's basic strategy 101 to fight for control of the center of the board early in the game. The reason behind this is that it increases the number of safe squares your pieces can move to while decreasing safe squares for your opponent. This gives you more opportunity to outplay the opponent. I think the same thing applies to On Fire hydrant, trampoline, and general stage control in this matchup. If we're placing an On Fire hydrant near the center of the stage, or simply placing Rosalina between the hydrant and the ledge, it forces her into a limited number of options that should be in our favor.

Has anyone had experience with this? The most obvious thing is that shielding the flames as Rosalina is not a good option like it is with most characters, as it's a quick way to make Luma go supernova. Gravity Pull works but they have to do it quickly. It could be a good edgeguarding tool, but since Rosalinas generally recover low it's probably situational. Perhaps it can be used to reduce space to land when she's in the air?

I posted videos of when I used it, but my experience doing this type of thing is very unrefined. In particular, I've had trouble gaining control of the center of the stage(though to be fair, I was stuck using Power Pac jump instead of my preferred 1112 setup). Anyone have thoughts or ideas on further strategies?

 

[Nu~]

Everything about this matchup is screaming "even" to me, so I'm going to have to disagree with Dabuz there.

Yes, on fire hydrant seems like an excellent choice in this matchup because it makes it crazy hard for rosa to approach safely. It turns her approach game into a "heads I win, tails you lose" situation if rosa tries to shield the flames. I also theorized with using Utilt to launch the hydrant and prevent rosa from jumping, while throwing fruit in mid range to give you the opportunity to punish GP in mid range.

On fire hydrant gives us a stronger defensive and offensive game than rosa in this matchup

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

Hello! I am a Pac Man Main and wanted to join this discussion about Pac Man Vs Rosaluma Match Up.

Okay so first off, I wanna talk about the GP. Rosaluma can suck it any projectile Pac Man throws (albeit making fruits grabable). What I like to do is bait a GP with Hydrant and then either throw a good punishing fruit (Orange, Apple, Galaxian, and Key) or by getting up close and getting off a few jabs or dash attack or nairs. If the Rosalumas just jump over the hydrant or fruit or shield I then get a Uair in (If they jump) or a grab (if they shield). You see, Grabbing a Rosaluma can be a bad idea but if you quickly get the throw out and then follow up quickly (depending on what type of throw you do). I personally like to Down Throw while in the middle of the stage and then dash attack then fairs or Uairs and Back throw and B reverse Orange or Key after short hopping or jumping depending on how high Rosaluma gets thrown.

I also like to get in close as most RosaLumas will think you will stay away or try to play mind games. Pac Man has good ground and air attacks IMO. What I like to do is get in close Up B, and then when they try to punish you, I like to jump back up quickly and fair or Uair and then follow up with either Nair or Uair.

Dealing with Luma isn't too hard. Bait the GP or Dash attack is what I like to do. If they GP I throw a key if I am far away and dash attack when I'm close. Now I do this when they are in the either by or at the edge or the stage. In the middle I like to Bait the GP with Hydrant and then punish accordingly. You may be wondering why dash attack? Many people tell me that a Rosaluma can shield and then punish dash attack. Well Pac Man has almost no ending lag on Dash attack so you can just shield or Spot Dodge and side tilt or quickly short up with Double Fair or Nair.

For Edge guarding I LOVE putting down a hydrant with a Tramp next to it. RosaLuma can't get up as the Hydrant will push them away and can't roll back on because tramp will make them jump and Pac Man can get in a free Air attack. If I don't have the time to get those traps down I edge guard with any Bonus fruit (Mostly the bell). After I throw it, if I miss the bell I can just grab it and throw it again (as for some reason from my experience Rosalumas don't see the second throw coming). To get back on stage I use Melon, Apple or Key. If I am high in the air apple, if I am across from them Melon so that they use GP or shield so that I can recovery a little easier OR try to recover and get the Key, land on edge, jump back short distance and throw the key. People NEVER see the key coming like that!

I have more to talk about but for now I have to go. I wanna talk about Sonic as well later on!

BYE!

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Luma Warp isn't a big boon in this matchup either.

One misfire and Luma will say hello to his torture chamber.

 

[BSP]

Everything about this matchup is screaming "even" to me, so I'm going to have to disagree with Dabuz there.

I would agree if it wasn't for the stage list. It screws us over somewhat, or at least my strategy.

I also theorized with using Utilt to launch the hydrant and prevent rosa from jumping

I did not think about this, and when I upload the stuff you'll see spots where this could've helped a lot.

I also didn't consider getting a galaxian in hand and going in with that.

I also got caught by Luma jab at the ledge + Rosalina jab at ledge roll distance away. I wasn't using my head because we have an answer. Ledge drop, charge to Key eventually, and then she'll have to stop or get hit by a key.

I also tried to get fruit in my hand to avoid theft, but I need to work on Key recovery on smashville.

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

Hey I am back! I am gonna continue more on about Pac Man vs RosaLuma match up.

I have said a couple of things before so just check out my other posts!

Anyway, RosaLuma has Star Bits as a special (I am talking about NO customs btw, they aren't my thing) that can come out pretty fast. Just shield this and then punish with orange or Key or dash attack. Star Bits can be very surprising but they don't do much knock-back and can be shielded easily.

For me I never try to gimp a Rosaluma when she tries to recover. Up B can be very unpredictable from the angles Rosalina can go. Just edge guard with traps and use Down B off the edge for a fast projectile that it misses your fine, but if it hits then there you go more damage on Rosaluma.

Biggest Problem for a Pac Man is when Rosaluma Jabs. If you are in the middle of Rosalina and Luma you might as well just take the hit or try to time it right and roll out of the way (which can be very hard). If only Luma is hitting you then shielding is fine and you can roll away easier. Rosaluma's Jab is probably the best in the game if done right so be very careful.

If a Rosaluma grabs you, don't worry, you won't be kill unless you are at 140%, Rosaluma has rage active, and she Forward throws near the edge. Rosaluma's grabs are predictable. Down Throw in the middle of stage, and back/forward throw on the edge of stage. If down thrown just time a good air dodge as Rosaluma will usually follow up with Fair or Uair. Then you can Bair or Nair to punish.

I still have much more to say but I have to go!

BYE BYE!

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So with customs on, and Rosa takes Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp, this means:

-Shooting Star Bit can be baited by charging fruit, giving you a free GP-proof projectile (Preferably Key)
-Luma Warp can be baited by jumping in Luma Warp range into a crispy Luma-crêpe.

And we gain balloon popper PPJ and torture chamber On-Fire Hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

So with customs on, and Rosa takes Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp, this means:

-Shooting Star Bit can be baited by charging fruit, giving you a free GP-proof projectile (Preferably Key)
-Luma Warp can be baited by jumping in Luma Warp range into a crispy Luma-crêpe.

And we gain balloon popper PPJ and torture chamber On-Fire Hydrant.

Or slampoline since she has a ledge reliant recovery

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

Hello! I am back! This is my last post talking about Pac Man vs RosaLuma!

Now when it comes to RosaLuma and her air attacks, they completely counter Pac Man's. Her air attacks are disjointed so if you try to Bair or Fair when Rosaluma Bairs or Fairs, Pac Man will most likely get damaged. When it comes to Uair and Dair, just use Hydrant when RosaLuma uses Uair. Rosaluma's Uair does not give enough damage to knock away the Hydrant and as it is disjointed, Hydrant will go through and still hit RosaLuma, countering Uair. Rosaluma's Dair is where I suggest you just air dodge. I haven't found a way to counter or punish dair very well.

Well I think that is all I have to say about the Pac Man vs RosaLuma match up.

RosaLuma can put on much pressure on Pac Man and if RosaLuma player plays Offensive well, it can be hard to charge Bonus Fruit and make traps. Other than that I would rate the match up a...

60-40 Pac Man having a slight advantage or a 50-50 Even.

 

[Nu~]

Hello! I am back! This is my last post talking about Pac Man vs RosaLuma!

Now when it comes to RosaLuma and her air attacks, the completely counter Pac Man's. Her air attacks are disjointed so if you try to Bair or Fair when Rosaluma Bairs or Fairs, Pac Man will most likely get damaged. When it comes to Uair and Dair, just use Hydrant when RosaLuma uses Uair. Rosaluma's Uair does not give enough damage to knock away the Hydrant and as it is disjointed, Hydrant will go through and still hit RosaLuma, countering Uair. Rosaluma's Dair is where I suggest you just air dodge. I haven't found a way to counter or punish dair very well.

Well I think that is all I have to say about the Pac Man vs RosaLuma match up.

RosaLuma can put on much pressure on Pac Man and if RosaLuma player plays Offensive well, it can be hard to charge Bonus Fruit and make traps. Other than that I would rate the match up a...

60-40 Pac Man having a slight advantage or a 50-50 Even.

You just can't get this kind of enthusiasm around here anymore lol. I love it!

I like you. Thanks for contributing and welcome to smashboards!

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

You just can't get this kind of enthusiasm around here anymore lol. I love it!

I like you. Thanks for contributing and welcome to smashboards!

Thank you for the welcome! And I love Pac Man! You can give me any character and I'll try my best to tell you everything I know and what Pac Man can do! I know the talk about Sonic Happened already but I wanna talk about Pac Man vs Sonic Match up sooner or later. I also wanna talk about Pac Man vs Caption Falcon because CF gives me the most trouble.

 

[Nu~]

Alright everyone, amazing discussion.
Now we move on to a rediscussion of the sonic matchup!

 

[Froggy]

Thank you for the welcome! And I love Pac Man! You can give me any character and I'll try my best to tell you everything I know and what Pac Man can do! I know the talk about Sonic Happened already but I wanna talk about Pac Man vs Sonic Match up sooner or later. I also wanna talk about Pac Man vs Caption Falcon because CF gives me the most trouble.

This used to give me a lot of trouble but not anymore. Use the Dire Hydrant, it takes the teeth out of his offense. Capain Faclons love to run in a grab or dash. When they do that Just Down b, it beats both, it beats his areals that he loved to when you're in the air as well. When/if he catches on and starts running and shield just mix up between Dire hydrant and retreating backwards, when you're coming from the air, and grab when you're on the ground. It will throw his entire offense out of whack.

With customs off I think it's a hard match up though, in this case avoid flat stages where you're more likely to get hit by raptor boost. And if you block it full punish it, you can't get a F-smash on shield.

 

[BSP]

I've got some massive dumps on this guy sitting around.
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-16#post-19151019
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-16#post-19136270

Let me try to nutshell them.

Big problems for Pac-Man in this MU if he does anything besides camping the ledge with trampoline:

• Sonic's running game. With our bad grab, we are unable to cover Sonic's neutral game options. Between running past us, running up and shielding, spin dashing, spin dash shield cancels, etc., you will be struggling to keep up. CQC is in his favor due to his jab, Ftilt, and grab.
• Spin Dash. Spin dash is easy to stop. All of our fruits either clank or beat it, and so do our tilts. That being said, it is still an amazing damage racker that leaves Pac-Man at disadvantage. Since Pac-Man isn't the fastest character around, Key is our only way of reliably punishing his options after spin dash.
• Our disadvantage: Sonic's uair will clank with hydrant, and his bair will launch it. He is fast enough to get to wherever we are trying to land and be ready to grab or punish. A well spaced bair from him is also extremely difficult to contest.
• Ineffectiveness of Hydrant: Sonic can run through grounded hydrants, meaning one of our usual sources of cover is completely nullified.

I thought this MU was 30:70 at some point because usual tactics were horribly ineffective. Then I started camping the ledge with trampoline. When you do this,

• Sonic's running, grab, and spin dash game become nonfactors as the trampoline will stop all of them. Sonic has to approach you from the air, where he is a lot more vulnerable. If he sits back, you get your punish tool and setups for free.
• Charging Bonus Fruit will take homing attacks for Pac-Man, leaving you safe from them.
• We have our own aerials, a partially invincible Utilt, and a disjointed U and F smash to contest Sonic's jump ins.

The downside to this approach is that you feel like a jerk, and Sonic gets lagless aerials for a few bounces on the trampoline. It also banks on Sonic approaching.

If Sonic gets the lead, it may be a pain to catch him if he attempts to time you out. I doubt this will happen because he gives you Keys for free if he hangs back. If he insists on running, charge up whatever you want and utilize it, different hydrant launches, and trampoline.

Despite the flaws of the ledge camping strategy, it works very well and makes me think the MU is more 40:60, if not even because of how much trampoline screws with Sonic's usual game plan. This post by @ Jenny Wakeman has good info too. To add on to the thoughts on edge guarding, I would imagine jab launched hydrant with a trampoline under it being effective against Sonic. He tends to favor the ledge when recovering.

Fruits vs. Spin dash:
Melon and Key are the most likely to beat it, but may still clank
I've yet to see orange, galaxian, and strawberry beat it
Bell, cherry, and Apple can beat it sometimes too.

Edit: side note, this strategy is also extremely effective against Fox, Falcon, and Little Mac.

 

[Ramserss]

Sup people

I recently jumped on the Pac-Man hype train mostly because of the amiibo coming out, and it turns out I really love Pac-Man and I'm so happy his meta is developed as it is from his MUs to his moveset analysis (relax alex made a video on it) So I thought I shuld add in some things I've noticed from playing Pac. Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

1st: Pac's f-air destroys heavy charters, such as DK and bowser. It's good for % build up and lets you juggle them like crazy.

2nd: Hes an unexpected charter and most people don't know how to play again him.

3rd: No spike moves?

4th: His movement is amazing, He has alot of air control and his ground speed is meh but with the boost of the hydrant with a charged smash as it pushes you adds some mad style and for some reason he has a wall jump I don't know why but gosh dang does he have one and I use it to confuse people who are ledge guarding. They expect the up-b then you just wall jump and go to ledge, same with his side-b if you angel is right you can snap to the ledge.

Thanks for reading c:

 

[Riptide1Slash3]

YES! PAC MAN VS SONIC MATCH UP! And so soon too!

Ok This is gonna take quite a while to talk about.

Ok So First I'm gonna talk about Close Combat.
On the ground Sonic has the advantage BY FAR. His attacks have shorter start up lag, but his tilts have more ending lag than Pac Man from what I seen. If you fight in close range, Down Tilt and Side Tilt can really help. The Jab-Jab-Kick combo Pac Man has works as well. Other than that Sonic has the advantage on the ground when it comes to Smashes.
In the Air Pac Man has the advantage. In the Air all you have to watch out for is Uair and Bair from Sonic which I suggest you air dodge and then Bair or Nair immidietly after. Fair beats Sonic's Fair and Both Dairs aren't too good. Pac Man's Nair also beats all of Sonic's Attacks in Priority but I'm sure Sonic's Bair beats it. Pac Man has the advantage in the air.

Now Specials. OOOHHHHH Boy this is gonna take a while.
Sonic's Spindash is a huge threat. It can cancel out Cherry and Strawberry out and sometimes Orange. When barely charged, Pac man can throw and Orange to cancel SpinDash and even damage Sonic instead. Half way charged, You want to use Melon and apple if needed. Fully Charged You want to use Melon and Up. Every other fruit will be canceled out.
Now it might be very hard to do but Side B from Pac Man counters Sonic's Spin Dash which is awesome! GET CHOMPED!
Hydrant stops Sonic's Spindash for a bit as well so if you time it well you can Side Tilt when he runs into the hydrant to knock it away and damage Sonic or Side Smash to get the hit from both Blinky and Hydrant to rack up good amounts of damage. If Sonic stops in front of the Hydrant and rolls Dsmash as you can either read the roll or if Sonic is spindashing STILL, you can get damage the same way as Fsmash.
Trampoline also counters Spin Dash. It can make them bounce or if Sonic wants to be cool, he will jump over it, where you can punish with two fairs or a good ole bair. (Showed you ways to counter Spin Dash. Now you have to use them well in order for these tactics to work).

Homing Attack. Easy counter. Either stop him from using it by a quick fair, time Up Smash well, Shield and punish, or spot dodge and punish. Easy counters/punishes. In the Air, you need to air dodge and punish if you can.

I got More to talk about but I can't right now as I got to go. BYE!

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

I've got some massive dumps on this guy sitting around.
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-16#post-19151019
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-16#post-19136270


I've yet to see orange, galaxian, and strawberry beat it

Strawberry is very interesting. I've yet to master it but sometimes I've caught the strawberry going through projectiles such as ZSS' paralyzer and still hits. I think it has something to do with the tip of the strawberry, but I don't exactly know if it's beneficial to investigate on or necessarily how to efficiently test it.

 

[Nu~]

I HIGHLY recommend dire hydrant in this matchup. It completely changes the game. Sonic no longer runs through our hydrant, but instead is forced to approach us through dire hydrant drops. His usual spin dash approach loses to dire hydrant and dash grab loses. Sonic is forced to run up and shield as his only real approach option which can be predicted and grabbed. If sonic tries to mix this up however, you can confuse him by switching up your options like dash attacking if he tries to roll back, using trampoline, running back and pivot grabbing, etc.
It becomes a guessing game in our favor because sonic is the one forced to mix up his approach first, and loses if he makes the wrong guess. Trampolines only further his difficulty approaching.

SH retreating fair normally didn't work on sonic due to his speed, but with dire hydrant, we can punish him for trying to run after us. When he runs in, drop a dire hydrant. This is more effective than the past two hydrants due to the bigger blast radius of the dire hydrant, and due to how high the dire hydrant sends us upward. This beats a potential spin dash punish too. You condition sonic to run up a shield by doing this, which gives you the opportunity to fast fall into trampoline or fast fall into a jump on sonic's head -> Nair which connects for some reason lol.

Dire hydrant is all about making the opponent's approach a guessing game of frustration and big damage/punishes in the long run.

Still trying to find more uses for enticing power pellet, but I have found out that it can make the entire ledge unsafe if you leave the pellet around the ledge while the opponent tries to recover. They get pulled into the attack instead of clipping into the ledge.

This is outright fatal if you also mix in stationary melons guarding the ledge (why don't we do this more?? People like lucario and sonic literally can't recover.)

Straight up pull the opponent into both the melon and the side B which can lead to a kill at around 65-70%

 

[Froggy]

I HIGHLY recommend dire hydrant in this matchup. It completely changes the game. Sonic no longer runs through our hydrant, but instead is forced to approach us through dire hydrant drops. His usual spin dash approach loses to dire hydrant and dash grab loses. Sonic is forced to run up and shield as his only real approach option which can be predicted and grabbed. If sonic tries to mix this up however, you can confuse him by switching up your options like dash attacking if he tries to roll back, using trampoline, running back and pivot grabbing, etc.
It becomes a guessing game in our favor because sonic is the one forced to mix up his approach first, and loses if he makes the wrong guess. Trampolines only further his difficulty approaching.

SH retreating fair normally didn't work on sonic due to his speed, but with dire hydrant, we can punish him for trying to run after us. When he runs in, drop a dire hydrant. This is more effective than the past two hydrants due to the bigger blast radius of the dire hydrant, and due to how high the dire hydrant sends us upward. This beats a potential spin dash punish too. You condition sonic to run up a shield by doing this, which gives you the opportunity to fast fall into trampoline or fast fall into a jump on sonic's head -> Nair which connects for some reason lol.

Dire hydrant is all about making the opponent's approach a guessing game of frustration and big damage/punishes in the long run.

Still trying to find more uses for enticing power pellet, but I have found out that it can make the entire ledge unsafe if you leave the pellet around the ledge while the opponent tries to recover. They get pulled into the attack instead of clipping into the ledge.

This is outright fatal if you also mix in stationary melons guarding the ledge (why don't we do this more?? People like lucario and sonic literally can't recover.)

Straight up pull the opponent into both the melon and the side B which can lead to a kill at around 65-70%

I agree Dire Hydrant works well in this match up but it's still very difficult, I think I defer to BSP's idea of primarily relying on the trampolene in this match up, Remember aside from just blocking sonic can also full hop out of his spin dash(at least one of em I know for sure) between that and his regular lightning fast dash do not under estimate Sonic's movement flexibility. With Dire Hydrant alone I'm comfortable against Captain Falcon and Little Mac, but much like Shiek I think sonic still remains a problem.

I reccomend using the DIre Hydrant as a second stage movement deterant for Sonic, that begin with charging your key behind your trampolene and once sonic begins to adjust to that then youbegin to use the Dire Hydrant beyond that. I suppose you can from the very beginining mix up between Dire Hydrant and trampolene as well.

I also think Lazy fruit is really good in this match up interrupt his movement. I think 3112 is very powerful in this match up, that's about as much stage control as you can get (except perhaps 3132), and I do believe 3113 can work here as well.

 

[revengeska]

I played in a tournament last night that was quite strong. In losers round 3 I played a Sonic main and got totally whipped. There were no customs for this event. I had done so-so previously vs Sonic but this guy was on another level. He's likely to enter the next MN power ranking since he's done semi-well against other PR members. I was unprepared for a Sonic of this caliber. I'm happy to see some input on customs against him, I'm going to have to try some things. I feel like lazy fruit isn't going to be that good against Sonic actually, but I'll have to try that out again as well as On Fire hydrant. I might even defy conventional wisdom and take a look at Dire hydrant, solid enough arguments here that I'll at least give it a look.

 

[TriTails]

Ok So First I'm gonna talk about Close Combat.

I seriously thought you were talking about Ike.

And by the way, not too sure on Pac's rolls, but apparently Luigi can roll after Homing Attack's execution, let Sonic bounce off the ground, and punish. Homing Attack's kinda safe on shield (Though, it puts him in a bad position), and spotdodging requires a bit of timing skills. Just though I'd point this out.

 

[Deleted member]

Pacman is a pretty poor matchup against Rosa UNLESS you use his customs. 2213 to be exact. Yeah, his customs are typically heralded is being bad but if you're using them against Rosa you'll certainly get an upper hand. Without customs though... yeah you're gonna lose.