Official SWF Tier List v8

[ぱみゅ]

That's more or less how half of the chart was done anyway.

 

[Z'zgashi]

That's more or less how half of the chart was done anyway.

how half of the chart was done anyway.

how half of the chart

the chart

>Tier List Thread

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

>Tier List Thread

imo the Tier List and Matchup Chart threads should just be combined into 1, the MU chart thread is barely ever active and this one has just as much discussions about character matchups as it does the tier list itself.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I agree, I just felt like posting that cuz why the **** not.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Come on Dark.Pch, live a little. Don't rely on "experience" and "data" to decide Matchups, go with your GUT FEELING and stick with it.

Sorry but that's not how I do things. I'm the person that always goes on about how people speak false information about my character cause they don't look things up or ask questions. Talking about stuff they don't know about. And I am one who corrects it all. As bais and this community might think I am, I do follow what I say. What applies to you guys also applies to me. I'm not gonna say things and spit out info I am not sure of. Even if it would make me look good. I do what I do to correct the wrong and improve the right so people can find this character more enjoyable and play better. That's what matters to me.

That's more or less how half of the chart was done anyway.

I say more then half. But thats the main reason I have always called the match up chart pure BS.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I love the concept of peach's shield pressure it is awesome in all of the frame breakdown and I love utilizing it myself. The real problem lies when you look at the risk reward the whole system falls apart. All of peach's mix-ups all rely on the opponent not just grabbing. If the opponent always grabs you get no mix-ups. The only option peach gets is to jab and from a risk ratio the penalty for getting jabbed is so low that is the obvious choice to prevent any worse penalties.

This is also all relies on peach being able to apply shield pressure. If you just go into the mu realizing don't allow shield pressure you can avoid the whole situation. This is went I feel peach will always struggle. She has some really strong advantages but some really exploitable weaknesses.

 

[Aidebit]

Guys, it's time. This is my 2000th post, and I'm giving it to you, the followers of the Official SWF Tier List v8 thread.

I present to you

The Official SWF Tier List v9

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Tier:

Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff has unparalleled aerial prowess. She is capable of getting early kills against any character via gimps, or she could use her excellent mobility to play a camping/spacing game that is extremely difficult for any character to approach.

SSS:

Mewtwo, Roy, Doctor Mario, Pichu, Young Link
These characters were so obviously broken during the development process that Sakurai decided to remove them from the game. Many people complained about this decision, but if these characters had been added Sakurai would have been widely criticized for leaving such overpowered characters in the game. This was essentially a no-win situation for Sakurai, but in the end he made the best decision for game balance.

SS tier:

Diddy Kong
Diddy Kong is a unique case. During development Sakurai wanted to give him a unique mechanic: the ability to make other characters trip. Due to an unforeseen error, this caused other characters, even in matches which did not involve Diddy Kong, to trip in random circumstances. Because of this, he is given the 7th spot on my tier list.

Olimar
Olimar is awarded the 8th spot because of his Pikmin. He can turn a match from a 1v1 to a 7v1 at any point in a match. Outnumbering his opponents by such a large margin makes Olimar a tournament threat at every level.

Ice Climbers
Similar to Olimar, the Ice Climbers are given such a high spot because they have a numerical advantage against their opponents. Outnumbering your opponent is an advantage in any form of Combat, and Smash Bros is no different.

King Dedede
As with Olimar, King Dedede has the ability to summon allies at will in order to outnumber the opponent.

S tier

Pokémon Trainer
Pokémon Trainer also outnumbers his opponents, though not in the same way as Ice Climbers of Olimar. Pokémon Trainer can choose from 1 of 3 different Pokémon to gain a tactical advantage in whichever situation he faces. Being able to keep is other 2 Pokémon fresh while the opponent gets tired gives him another tactical advantage.

Zelda/Sheik
Sheilda also has the tactical advantage of being able to switch between 2 options in order to better meet any challenge. She is placed below Pokémon Trainer because she only has 2 choices, and the reserve character is not kept at peak performance.

A tier

Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Samus contains a plethora of futuristic technology that gives her a technological edge on her opponents. When she is wearing her Power Suit, she excels at long range combat and can keep opponents away from her with a great degree of efficiency. When she discards the suit, she gains extra agility and becomes an expert at close quarter combat, and she can continue to attack her opponents from afar by throwing pieces of the suit at them.

Snake
Snake, like Samus, is very well equipped for a combat setting. He has many weapons that he can use to make the arena a minefield, with various traps that the opponent must avoid in order to even reach Snake, at which point Snake can show that he is a master of hand-to-hand fighting, and a threat to any character.

ROB
ROB is a Robot. He feels no pain. He will just keep going until he obtains victory, or suffers defeat. Luckily for the Robot, he has the tools so that victory will come more often than defeat. He can take out the Gyro at any point and use it, along with his laser eyes, to harass his enemy from across the stage. His exceptionally long arms give him great ability at close range, allowing him to

Flaoc
Flaoc has an exceptional ability to control the stage at both long and close range, with his lasers and fantastic jab and grab, allowing him to take on any character head to head to head.

Wolf
Wolf is great at controlling space with his fantastic aerials as well as his great laser. He can kill opponents very early and is great at protecting himself while dealing out massive damage.

B tier

Pit
Pit has a sword, magical arrows, and his most dangerous weapon, Divine Assistance. He can annoy his opponents from any position on the stage, and will be very difficult to kill due to his god(dess) given ability to fly. He can kill enemies fairly easily, and is exceptional at racking up damage.

Lucas
Lucas has amazing Psychic abilities, and is great at weaving around his opponents and racking damage quickly with multi-hit moves. He can kill easily with his extremely powerful smashes and easy setups into kill moves.

Ness
Like, Lucas, Ness has great psychic abilities and his great at racking up damage. While he isn’t as adept at moving around the stage, he can kill just as easily and can hold his own against many top tier characters.

Toon Link
Toon Link has great speed, and a huge number of projectiles he can use to keep foes away from him, including arrows, a boomerang and bombs. He’s not inept at close range though, as he can cut into his opponent’s chances of victory with his Sword, and at midrange he has his hook shot to keep his opponents at bay.

Link
Link is essentially a slower, more powerful version of Toon Link with greater range. His toolset makes him a big threat to many characters.

C tier
Metaknight
Metaknight has amazing speed, 6 jumps, and great priority. However he has trouble dealing with foes who can challenge him from a distance, has he doesn’t have the range to deal with campy foes. He is also fairly light, making him easier to kill than most other characters.

Marth
Marth has great range with his sword, Falchion. He can keep enemies at bay with large swipes, and the deadly tip of the sword. Like Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance assaults. He can kill easily with powerful tipped smashes; however he has a poor recovery, making it easy to kill him fairly early in his stock.

Ike
Ike is power. Power is Ike. Ike’s sword Ragnell is huge and powerful, giving him great range and exceptional killing power. Like Marth and Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance fighters and can be killed early.

Mr. Game and Watch
Mr. Game and Watch has great kill power and an excellent recovery, but he is one of the lightest characters in the game, making him fairly easy to kill. He also has trouble dealing with long range opponents, though this is slightly offset by his bucket.

D tier
Peach
Peach is exceptional at racking up damage at low percent, though she has a lot of problems killing opponents and has a terrible vertical recovery. Her chance to randomly pull items such as bombs and swords out of the ground prevents her from being lower on the list.

Pikachu
Pikachu is quick, has an excellent grab game, and a fairly good projectile. He has some troubles killing, but does have non-guaranteed setups into kills moves on many characters. He is also light and dies easily.

Lucario
Lucario has great power, when he’s behind. This is not a desirable quality for competitive players, who want to be in the lead throughout the whole match, which is the best way to guarantee victory.

E tier

Wario
Wario has aerial mobility that Rivals that of Jigglypuff, and he has great kill power. However, he is a fastfaller and a large target, and doesn’t have the greatest recovery, making it easy to kill him.

Luigi
Luigi has great kill power, but that’s all he has. His recovery is decent, and he’s light. He has very low traction, making it difficult for him to punish enemies when they hit his shield.

Mario
Mario is an inferior Luigi; he has less kill power, a worse recovery and dies more easily. The only thing he has over Luigi is a better out of shield game.

Yoshi
Yoshi’s inability to attack out of shield cripples him to the point of near-uselessness. He has a semi-decent projectile and a command grab, but those assets are not enough to overcome his huge flaw.

Bowser
Bowser is strong, and he has a good out of shield option with his up special. However, he is slow, and has a poor recovery.

F tier

Sonic
GOTTA GO FAST. Yes Sonic, speed is an important factor in Smash Bros, but so is being able to kill. Which you cannot do.

Donkey Kong
DK has power, and he’s kind of fast, but he has a poor recovery and his strongest kills moves aren’t fast enough to land easily.
Captain Falcon

Falcon has speed, and kill power, but his kill moves aren’t reliable and require a read to land. He is completely obliterated by characters with superior range or projectiles.

Ganondorf
Ganondorf has POWER. And nothing else. Maybe he should team up with Sonic?

Kirby tier
Kirby
Kirby copies his opponent’s abilities, which means he’s only as good as his opponent is.

Fox tier
Fox

Fox sux lol

If you have any complaints about this list please email me at idc_aboutu@stfu.com

I have a few complaints;
1.) Fox is too high, Waluigi, Isaac and Saki all deserve higher places than him, since even AT's are better than Fox.
2.) Pokemon Trainer is too low, he has a hat, and hats are broken.
3.) Mewtoo too low, he should tie with Jiggs for first place because DIDYOUEVENSEETHATSCENEFROMTHEMOVIEICRIED.
4.) Fox is too high.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I have a few complaints;
1.) Fox is too high, Waluigi, Isaac and Saki all deserve higher places than him, since even AT's are better than Fox.
2.) Pokemon Trainer is too low, he has a hat, and hats are broken.
3.) Mewtoo too low, he should tie with Jiggs for first place because DIDYOUEVENSEETHATSCENEFROMTHEMOVIEICRIED.
4.) Fox is too high.

1. I was only including playable Smash Bros characters, not items. Otherwise I would have to include every single item, assist trophy character, pokeball Pokmen, SSE boss, SSE enemy and CD above Fox to have an accurate list
2. The trainer himself isn't who you play as, and since the Pokemon don't wear hats (at least, not without hacks) I felt he didn't deserve a higher place than he recieved.
3. I'm sorry, but despite how beautiful gorgeous sexyawesome Mewtwo is, nobody ties with Jigglypuff
4. I already covered this in part 1

 

[Aidebit]

2. The trainer himself isn't who you play as, and since the Pokemon don't wear hats (at least, not without hacks) I felt he didn't deserve a higher place than he recieved.

Flower Hat Jigglypuff confirmed to be above regular Jigglypuff.

 

[Osennecho]

Flower Hat Jigglypuff confirmed to be above regular Jigglypuff.

Sun Hat Puff is Best Puff.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Sun Hat Puff is Best Puff.

***** pls

 

[Aidebit]

***** pls

Hacks are banned at Apex 2014.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Hacks are banned at Apex 2014.

Bu-But Project M is going to be an event at Apex 2014

 

[Aidebit]

Bu-But Project M is going to be an event at Apex 2014

Project M is a mod, not a hack.
Also why can't I edit my post.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Hacks are banned at Apex 2014.

This isn't a hack this is just a designer banned costume due to the clear imbalance in giving a broken character an imbalanced hat. Not a hack just a releasing of a hidden costume due to roster imbalance.

On a side note it is so difficult to post actual content to this thread due to the amount of nonsense that piles on top of it so fast. I tried to contribute on topic and had it immediately lost behind a wall of text...

 

[Dark.Pch]

I love the concept of peach's shield pressure it is awesome in all of the frame breakdown and I love utilizing it myself. The real problem lies when you look at the risk reward the whole system falls apart. All of peach's mix-ups all rely on the opponent not just grabbing. If the opponent always grabs you get no mix-ups. The only option peach gets is to jab and from a risk ratio the penalty for getting jabbed is so low that is the obvious choice to prevent any worse penalties.

This is also all relies on peach being able to apply shield pressure. If you just go into the mu realizing don't allow shield pressure you can avoid the whole situation. This is went I feel peach will always struggle. She has some really strong advantages but some really exploitable weaknesses.

Her mix ups and pressure do not rely on people grabbing. Though that is the most common thing to expect cause people just always and try and get a grab out of dumb luck instead of blocking. I also don't have to Fair to jab. I can fair to w/e I want. Fair to jab is just the most common thing cause people just always wanna try to grab or attack OoS. Which the jab will stop. If you fight someone that actually knows thier **** and not playing on pure luck with her pressure, after a fair or dair, you can give up the hit and see what they will do by spacing the move on block.The type of pressure you do is based on how your opponent tries to deal with it. I explained this before but incase you missed it.

Fair links on block:
- Fair>Grab
- Fair>Jab>Grab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Grab
- Fair> Jab cancel>Jab>Grab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Ground float bair> Jab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Ground float bair> Jab cancel >Grab
- Fair> jab cancel>Dair>Jab cancel>grab
- Fair>Jab cancel> Ground float nair> Jab cancel>grab.
*Notes on pressure: Nair as to be space or else it is punishable on block and jab wont save you from grab. This stops your opponent from trying to grab you or attack out out of shield. When you have conditioned them to not try anything, you can go for grabs. Which up when you would grab within the pressure string so they wont tell when it is safe to evade, counter. If the shield is small, end your pressure strings with a Dsmash for shield pokes.

Fair Links on block to backward rolls:
- Fair>dash attack
-Fair>Jab cancel>Dash attack
-Fair>Jab cancel> Dash grab
-Fair>Jab cancel> Peach bomber
- Fair>Jab cancel> Short hop dair

Fair links on block to foward roll:
- Fair>jab cancel> Dair
- Fair> Jab cancel> grab/pivot grab.
- Fair>jab cancel>bair
- Fair>jab cancel>Nair

Fair links on block to spotdodge:
- Fair>Jab Cancel> Nair
- Fair> Jab cancel> Dair
- Fair>Jab cancel Bair
- Fair >Jab cancel> grab
- Fair> Jab cancel> Dsmash
*When you have have your enemy respecting you on block, they will not try to grab you anymore nor attack you. The next best thing is to gain some space. So it would be to Evade. Wether foward or backwards. its easier to predict evasion when near the ledge or shield is small. Near the ledge they can not roll away from you. Only 2 options left which is roll backwards or spotdodge.

**To Save time Dair and Fair can be done in the same formation as Fair. With bair, you have to buffer a turn around to Jab. Turn around animation cancels on frame one, so the jab would come out on frame 3 to keep you safe from grabs.

Pressure starters:
- Fair, grounded fair
- Dair, Floating Dair
- Nair, Ground floating nair
- Jab
- Glide toss to air attack or jab
- Bair
- Zdrop, Zdrop to Bair/Dair/Jab

Safe pressure enders:
Jab cancel/ Evade- Leaves you safe from attacks out of shield and punish/ bait wiffed moves if you evade behind/spot dodge.
Jab cancel> double Jab- If you space Jab on shield. it is hard to punish. You have time to block or evade if you feel in danger.
Ground float nair- Nair is -7 on block. A grab is 6 frames. So your enemy can grab to from a nair. But if he wants to attack you grounded he has to drop his shield first. Which takes 7 frames. You can both move at the same time if he drops his shield to attack. So if you space a nair on block, they wont be able to grab you. Jumping out of shield to an air attack takes time since there is a squat animation before you are airborn and able to attack. the average squat frames is 5. So 5+ how many frames it takes for the move to come out. Giving you enough time to defend or evade.

Peach can simple NOT just jump in on anyone. The way shield pressure is started is to force a block. if you opponent is not blocking, they can easily hit you if you go in on the from the air or evade. What you have to do is first figure a way to get close to your opponent. When you do, make sure you are at a safe distance where you are out of their range of attacks. From here, here is a few things you can do:

- Give up a hit to see what your opponent will do when you go near them.

- Wave dash in and out to see if your opponent will try to jump in on you with attacks or evade while being out of range of their attacks.

-Wave dash in and out while holding a turnip. It can be hard to tell when you will toss it. Which can force blocks, evasions. If they try to do something at the wrong time due to your confusing movement, you can toss it and hit them with it.

Now doing this, 2 things will happen

- Your opponent throws out an attack when you are ready to deal with and punish.
- Your opponent flniches via your wave dashing thinking you will attack and will evade/block

If option number one happens, thats good for you, you get some damage. No need to worry about pressuring when the point of that is to open the enemy up or frame trap them for damage. This options lets you get damage for free.

If option number 2 happens then you go based on that pressure list I just posted to keep control of the match and open them up for damage.

It be best to start pressure with auto cancelled dairs. Its faster then Fair. Though it is not that save on block. For it is -3. While her fair is 0. You still can not be grabbed or attacked OoS with auto cancelled Dairs. So if you can don't fair peoples shields, just dair it. it makes your pressure game a lil faster. Fair works great if you are ground floating. For its about the best way to auto cancel that move near perfect frame to get the 0 advantage on shield. And trust me, people will try to grab or punish that ****. Just smack them. if you have a turnip, it's even better cancel the fair pushes them back. And with proper spacing that move is unpunishable. From there you can glide toss the turnip if they try to attack/grab and follow up. Or is they fear a glide toss you can go in for pressure with dair>zdrop>bair cross up>reverse Jab. Or you can............man I can go forever with this **** just mixing and match stuff. It's all on how creative you are.

The character That it is best to fair on shield are

- Metaknight: His up-B is invincible on frame 5. the hit box is on frame 8. You have 4 frames to hit him out of his up-B. Dair is not save enough on shield for you to hit him. Your fair is. Since 0 on block you can hit him out of his up-B with your jab.

- Mario: I don't recall the frames mario is invincible on. But I have slapped him out of his up-B before. But just to make sure I am not getting lucky, I'm gonna look up that information and see if this is seriously safe.

- Samus: The same with mario. Though I am sure this is legit. I believe she is invincible on frame 3 or 4.

- Bowser: With him you have to space your fairs to a point bowser gets pushed back in his shield. While bowsers up-B hits in frame 1, if you do this, the move wont hit you on that frame, and as bowser pulls in towards you, you can cancel his up-B with your jab.

- Marth: Fair and block or evade. Give up the hit unleash he attack tries to attack out of shield, grab or evade. Based on how your opponent plays, learn when to give up the hit and go for pressure. He is invincible on the first frame. Can't punish this head on.

Extra stuff:

- Peach grounded fair on block usually pushes the opponent back. Doing this with a turnip can lead to some good frame traps if you are creative about it.

- Peach can get free kills from a dtilt spike. If the player is good and spacing the move, they can pushing peoples landings after at attack with dtilt. From here you can land fsmash, Ftilt, reverse grounded bair, uiar, and nair. if they don't tech, this is a true 2 hit combo. if they are at high % and one of these attacks would kill based on the position of the stage you guys are on, that's a kill.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Project M is a mod, not a hack.
Also why can't I edit my post.

Welp, I'm officially done with P:M.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Not quoting dark.pch due to post size... But you aren't understanding my point on all of your pressure strings. I am never going to respect your jab after aerial on my shield because in the scheme of things it is such a pitiful punish. Why deal with the potential for all the high damage mix-ups and combos when you can just take a small amount of damage and give up a bit of stage control? Jab doesn't scare me is my basic idea.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Why am I gonna go for mix ups that take time and will cost me damage when I can go for something simple and not take damage at all? The point of me jabbing you is so I don't take at damage cause you choose to do things you are not suppose to do. If you was to respect my Jab and just block, thats guaranteed for you. Instead, you keep trying to challenge me and get slapped for it. giving up free damage.

Also after I jab you, I can follow you and stay close to you. I could wave dash in upon your landing to another jab pressure game if you choose to attack/block. At high damage and if near the lead, a jab can send you off stage and I can take advantage of this for edgeguards. When you start respecting respecting me on block, then I go for mix ups. Cause this is the point I have to open you up. If you keep mashing buttons for a grab or attacks out of shield, a mix up that i would go for would get me punished.

I don't wanna get hit and take damage. That's the point. You punish buttons after an air attack so you can get some luck damage is what I am preventing. And as long as I stop that and stay close to you, i still have control and advantage of the situation. That's whats important.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser's up b isnt frame 1, its frame 6 and has invincibility frames 1-5.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry but that's not how I do things. I'm the person that always goes on about how people speak false information about my character cause they don't look things up or ask questions. Talking about stuff they don't know about. And I am one who corrects it all. As bais and this community might think I am, I do follow what I say. What applies to you guys also applies to me. I'm not gonna say things and spit out info I am not sure of. Even if it would make me look good. I do what I do to correct the wrong and improve the right so people can find this character more enjoyable and play better. That's what matters to me.

I say more then half. But thats the main reason I have always called the match up chart pure BS.

You could do with a less egocentric world view.

Female trainer hat Jigglypuff is my current favourite, but I used to go naked (and sun hat before that). She's cute no matter what so idk

 

[Luco]

Oh hi guys...

It's been a while. :o

 

[Seagull Joe]

is sucha precise character.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I ****ing love that top hat Jigglypuff

 

[Rizen]

IMO G&W has +1 vs Peach, like the chart says. It's a huge spacing, retreating, countering MU for both characters. Peach is more versatile with turnips etc but G&W can get away with being more strait forward. G&W punishes so much harder; 1 good read out of Dthrow...

+what DarkPch said.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm not so sure about this straight forward stuff. G&W is a simple character. And I consider that a downfall. There isn't much to him. G&W gets rewarded alot if Peach wants to be in the air alot. if she stays grounded and brings her air game to the ground via ground floating, He won't be landing anything good on me and is having a hard time since her ground game is solid and can start pressure. If ones plays on point with all the options they have, G&W is not gonna get anything for free. And I feel alot of characters vs him are doing that already. Which is why you really don't hear much from him doing damage now.

Getting a grab on a solid Peach is something I don't think he should rely or focus on. It's not easy. And I don't remember what direction it is that Peach has to tech where he can not tech chase me to an attack or grab.

I have a few ways to go in on him via turnips and wave dashing. if he up-bs out of my pressure I can punish him for it the way I explained before. Or I can just shark him via wave dashing with a turnip in hand. This would be a bad idea for him to come down on me with a typical dair. So even if he up-B I can still keep control of the match by sharking him from below. I would only go for the uair if I know what he would do after an up-B while I am ground or jump to him via data fishing.

The only thing that I see as a problem vs him is that he hits to hard and I can die under 100. And if I don't die. I am in a nasty position in the air that I have to worry about. Though his moves are slow, and I have alot of options to avoid all of this. Which Peach can play in a way via wavedashing for one thing and make it hard for G&W to get anything good started.

With all this It would seem to me that it might be even or in her favor. But as I said before. I don't play G&W and never really fought one with the new metagame I have with her via wave dashing. So I can't say how the match up ratio is in my eyes till I actually give it a try.

 

[Rizen]

Stuff

I don't think PeachvG&W is even. +1 G&W like I said. G&W's air speed is the same as squirtle and DK and considerable faster than Peach:
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...itive-2012-edition-tutorial-vid-added.316961/
(Great guide btw, I use this for reference a lot )
G&W can land alright with that and aerial cover. Attacking out of upB is really nice.
Peach has good turnip tactics but G&W has a good anti turnip game by walling with Fair/Bair/Nair that eat most turnips.
G&W is a strait forward spacing character with little mix-up potential besides spacing movement but he can succeed vs Peach is what I meant. Some MU's like Marth v G&W are terrible because Marth just beats him back and G&W has no good ways to deal with it. vs Peach G&W can rely on his reach and stats fine.

Most of G&W's KO will be Fair but I wouldn't rule out reads that land a smash. Peach does have good tools to combat G&W but G&W simply has better payoffs.

 

[Dark.Pch]

What it seems to me is that you just focus alot on what you can do and not what you cant do. or the options I have against what you do.

This turnip antics you talk about. Anyone can do that. Good turnip usage is not me getting one and simple throwing it at you. Which can screw over this said anti turnip game. Diddys just don't get bananas and jumpy toss it right away as a good banana game.

Attacking out of up-B from pressure really does not do much for you. The pro of it is you get some breathing room. The con of it is you are over me. Which I can actually deal with. And if there is no platforms like FD its even better. Your air speed is not OP to a point I can't shark you via wave dashing to force something out of you. And if you choose to be patient about it, I still have control While your falling. You have a dair or an air dodge as an option. Which I can take take of. I can react to what you try to do.

With that said, this is gonna go back in forth with "if you do this, well I can do this" So what I usually do when breaking match ups down is to know all what one character can do to the other. Then state the difficulty of doing said thing. And based on what you are telling me here compared to what I said, I am not saying how he wins this.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

G&W also has his jump and other aerials when he up-bs out of shield, you know. I can't see Peach punishing it easily, except on FD possibly where the match-up will never go to because G&W instantly bans it in every match-up.

Due to the way Peach's air-game works, G&W will be getting grabs by dashing in and shielding underneath her when she commits to an aerial (outside of her standard float shield-pressure). Sure, it's not going to happen that often, but it's also not a rarity.

One of G&W's main problems is killing consistently. He is forced to just go for things and either they work, or they don't. He has nothing to rely on like Snake's up tilt... except in this match-up, where Peach constantly makes herself vulnerable to fair from numerous positions.

Her ground game is abysmal in the match-up and out-right loses to a mixture of short hopping, up-b out of shield, safely spaced aerials and dtilt/smashes (at high %). He can legitimately jump into a grounded Peach with a nair and it's like trying to beat Tornado. Sure, it can be done via fsmash or intelligent spacing, but G&W clearly has the edge safety-wise.

Peach is forced to camp turnips 99% of the game, and implement little parts of her usual game (both grounded and aerial) when the situation calls for it. I'm not saying that this is awful, G&W cannot approach easily through a wall of turnips and hitboxes due to his slow attack speed and inability to win small trades - however, Peach can create no genuine pressure on G&W as far as I've seen, and loses the percentage game out-right given the ease with which G&W can KO and juggle her.

/someone who has actually played this match-up

 

[Rizen]

^I've played the MU too.

This turnip antics you talk about. Anyone can do that. Good turnip usage is not me getting one and simple throwing it at you. Which can screw over this said anti turnip game. Diddys just don't get bananas and jumpy toss it right away as a good banana game.

Diddy's bananas are transcendent so that's a different story. Peach definitely can get in hits and do stuff. G&W has good options too. In this case you're talking about using turnips; G&W can play an attack (probably with Bair) closer, move back if needed, 2nd jump, upB as a last reset resort spacing game to match peach's float/retreat, turnip tosses etc. If G&W upBs he should be safe and reset the situation; this applies for most MUs except ones like Marth. UpB is a really nice move; G&W's invulnerable the first third of the way up.
Basically anything Peach can do G&W can match in some way and vice versa so the games go back and forth a lot. G&W does have better payoffs and he avoids Peach's damage racking better than most characters.
Don't underestimate G&W's 'get out of jail' free upB. He can also jump out of it if he saved his 2nd jump. It's invulnerable even in the air. His air speed and fall speeds are pretty fast too.

Edit:

Her ground game is abysmal in the match-up and out-right loses to a mixture of short hopping, up-b out of shield, safely spaced aerials and dtilt/smashes (at high %).

1 thing to add to this: G&W's Dtilt is good. He can land>Dtilt and beat a lot of punishes/approaches.

 

[Dark.Pch]

G&W also has his jump and other aerials when he up-bs out of shield, you know. I can't see Peach punishing it easily, except on FD possibly where the match-up will never go to because G&W instantly bans it in every match-up.

And what? Leave himself exposed under him? Him using any other air attack in this siuation is nearly a free hit if I am sharking him via wave dashing from below. And i stated before I can hit him out of his dair with my uair. My attack is faster.

Due to the way Peach's air-game works, G&W will be getting grabs by dashing in and shielding underneath her when she commits to an aerial (outside of her standard float shield-pressure). Sure, it's not going to happen that often, but it's also not a rarity.

No he is not. He is not grabbing me out of any of my air attacks unless I mispace. Which people hope on that dumb luck factor and try throw it out there. My moves are safe to a point you will get slapped for it. People you played had bad spacing and let you grab her. Thats why you think this. And I'm just simply gonna correct you as i did. Peach air game does not work as you think it does.

One of G&W's main problems is killing consistently. He is forced to just go for things and either they work, or they don't. He has nothing to rely on like Snake's up tilt... except in this match-up, where Peach constantly makes herself vulnerable to fair from numerous positions.

Correction, Peach PLAYERS. I said this 100 times already. Peach does not have to be doing this at all. And it is actually a bad idea. Think about it. Why the hell am I gonna come at you with a slow move that you can react too and punish me easlily. Does that sound smart to you?Nothing is saying peach has to make herself vulnerable with fair from all over. Stop thinking stuff like this is what has to be done when it does not at all. Cause when you fight someone that does not do that, you won't be getting kills so easy as you think you can based on what you just told me.

Her ground game is abysmal in the match-up and out-right loses to a mixture of short hopping, up-b out of shield, safely spaced aerials and dtilt/smashes (at high %). He can legitimately jump into a grounded Peach with a nair and it's like trying to beat Tornado. Sure, it can be done via fsmash or intelligent spacing, but G&W clearly has the edge safety-wise.


Your evasion frames are crap. And the only thing you have against my pressure is an up-B, Which I just went through how to deal with this. If good use of wave dashing jumping in on Peach with that move is gonna get you punished. That only works if Peach decides to stay in one spot for too long trying to jump with ariels or getting a turnip. solid control of Peach you are not gonna just go in and lan air attacks for free. Rain with MK could not do this against Kie Peach. He was having a hard timing landing solid hits on him, or he got left open for counters by Kie. All with smart movement, controlling space and spacing. So I am not sure what makes you think G&W can just jump in like that and you not have to worry about anything.

"Sure, it can be done via fsmash or intelligent spacing, but G&W clearly has the edge safety-wise."

Yea, so what are you getting out of this. You ether don't get the hit and I take no damage, or you get hit. and I take no damage. or get lucky and get the hit. I'm still safe and will usually take no damage since what you did was for nothing.

Her ground game is really good and what is needed vs him. You just never fought one with a solid one with smart movement. And I can put money on that one. If you seriously think this.


Peach is forced to camp turnips 99% of the game, and implement little parts of her usual game (both grounded and aerial) when the situation calls for it. I'm not saying that this is awful, G&W cannot approach easily through a wall of turnips and hitboxes due to his slow attack speed and inability to win small trades - however, Peach can create no genuine pressure on G&W as far as I've seen, and loses the percentage game out-right given the ease with which G&W can KO and juggle her.

/someone who has actually played this match-up

Pressure is not all that matters. I can still rack up damage on you. I can still control space and movement making it hard for you to hit me. I can still fighting with an item in hand to make is hard for you to guess if you should evade, block or attack. And I seriously have no hard time getting near him with the many options I have.

if I stay grounded alot, You are not getting these easy juggles and kills. This is happening if peach wants to be air happy. WHich in this match up she should not since he covers that so well. She could only go in the air if she forces a block or predicts what the opponent will do and can then go to the skies to punish. Peach can play in a way to make it hard for you do get these simple juggles and kills.

From all that I just corrected here, you are talking about a Peach player that plays flow chart happy. Which in this case, that match up is free for G&W. You are not talking about a Peach that plays on point, good movement, has a good ground game and does not fair so much. And I can tell you that for sure cause all the stuff here is what I tell the players I teach what to not do, and what happens against alot of characters if they do things like this. And also what they should be doing.

And the reason I know this as well is cause I use to play him the way you stated. And I got punished the way you stated. I played a smart G&W and he beat my ass for it. Because the other brain dead G&W that just did stuff let me get away with it. yet these dude was not having it. So I had to switch it up and learn better options. Which I did and went back to just mopping the floor with the guy cause I stopped playing so basic and did things people would expect from this character for years in said situations. So I can not take your world for it.

^I've played the MU too.

Diddy's bananas are transcendent so that's a different story. Peach definitely can get in hits and do stuff. G&W has good options too. In this case you're talking about using turnips; G&W can play an attack (probably with Bair) closer, move back if needed, 2nd jump, upB as a last reset resort spacing game to match peach's float/retreat, turnip tosses etc. If G&W upBs he should be safe and reset the situation; this applies for most MUs except ones like Marth. UpB is a really nice move; G&W's invulnerable the first third of the way up.
Basically anything Peach can do G&W can match in some way and vice versa so the games go back and forth a lot. G&W does have better payoffs and he avoids Peach's damage racking better than most characters.
Don't underestimate G&W's 'get out of jail' free upB. He can also jump out of it if he saved his 2nd jump. It's invulnerable even in the air. His air speed and fall speeds are pretty fast too.

Edit:

1 thing to add to this: G&W's Dtilt is good. He can land>Dtilt and beat a lot of punishes/approaches.

You missed the point I was making with the example of turnips and naners

I know his invinc frames. I was not talking about punishing him on the way up. I'm talking about while he is coming down.

And I am not underestimating anything. You seriously not understanding what I am telling you. if he does this, I can simply stay under him. why would I just boldly chase him when he could fake me out with a second jump or wait for me to do something up there and he comes does with a dair. That is dumb. The point of me sharking you via wavedashing is to stay close to you. Which is what this character wants to be all the time. Close to the opponent. Also to see what you would do so I can make educated reads as to wait, bait, or just jump in for the hit. Me giving up a hit does not mean anything bad for me. I'm still near you and if you try anything bold I can react to it.

And what are these payoffs you are talking bout, and just how simple is it to land them against a smart player that you can just rely on them.

 

[Funkmasterblitz]

Ahh I remember the days when Luigi was ranked 20th.

 

[Rizen]

You missed the point I was making with the example of turnips and naners

I know his invinc frames. I was not talking about punishing him on the way up. I'm talking about while he is coming down.

And I am not underestimating anything. You seriously not understanding what I am telling you. if he does this, I can simply stay under him. why would I just boldly chase him when he could fake me out with a second jump or wait for me to do something up there and he comes does with a dair. That is dumb. The point of me sharking you via wavedashing is to stay close to you. Which is what this character wants to be all the time. Close to the opponent. Also to see what you would do so I can make educated reads as to wait, bait, or just jump in for the hit. Me giving up a hit does not mean anything bad for me. I'm still near you and if you try anything bold I can react to it.

And what are these payoffs you are talking bout, and just how simple is it to land them against a smart player that you can just rely on them.

When G&W is coming down if you throw a turnip he's covered by an aerial or dodge except 2-4 frames of landing lag.
"I can simply stay under him" how will Peach stay under G&W when he is faster? This is just not true; Peach doesn't have a good way to punish G&W for upBing. Never in my experience has Peach reliably punished upB if done right. If you're to the side at all he can Bair as he descends and Peach will be in most cases. Bair from above and to the side of Peach is prime spacing. If Peach throws a turnip It has very little time when G&W is not protected.
Both characters have trouble chasing the other down. G&W can reset a situation. If G&W has to approach he'll have a hard time breaching Peach's spacing and defenses. When G&W upBs it's to get away and he can. Peach has a hard time chasing G&W down even with turnips. Turnips aren't a fast projectile to pull or throw.

Payoffs: for examples, shield grab or any grab Peach>Dsmash if she doesn't tech, tech chase>smash or free Fair or dash attack on read iirc. Hit with Bair/Nair (full Nair racks up 17% iirc) etc or any time Peach is above and G&W can Uair and juggle- that's a bad situation. Get Peach offstage and G&W can wall with Fairs> upB>more attacks. Most mistakes can be Fsmashed although it's not a great setup it does happen. Peach has to land and there are platforms> Nair pressure through platforms and more Uair juggling.
Any smart read leads to a very strong smash. If no one made mistakes or got reads, well that's unrealistic. Peach will get reads too. I admit Peach has better setups but G&W's ability to get Peach in a bad spot for juggles or early KOs is good enough.

 

[Dark.Pch]

When G&W is coming down if you throw a turnip he's covered by an aerial or dodge except 2-4 frames of landing lag."I can simply stay under him" how will Peach stay under G&W when he is faster? This is just not true; Peach doesn't have a good way to punish G&W for upBing. Never in my experience has Peach reliably punished upB if done right. If you're to the side at all he can Bair as he descends and Peach will be in most cases. Bair from above and to the side of Peach is prime spacing. If Peach throws a turnip It has very little time when G&W is not protected.

Both characters have trouble chasing the other down. G&W can reset a situation. If G&W has to approach he'll have a hard time breaching Peach's spacing and defenses. When G&W upBs it's to get away and he can. Peach has a hard time chasing G&W down even with turnips. Turnips aren't a fast projectile to pull or throw.

Payoffs: for examples, shield grab or any grab Peach>Dsmash if she doesn't tech, tech chase>smash or free Fair or dash attack on read iirc. Hit with Bair/Nair (full Nair racks up 17% iirc) etc or any time Peach is above and G&W can Uair and juggle- that's a bad situation. Get Peach offstage and G&W can wall with Fairs> upB>more attacks. Most mistakes can be Fsmashed although it's not a great setup it does happen. Peach has to land and there are platforms> Nair pressure through platforms and more Uair juggling.
Any smart read leads to a very strong smash. If no one made mistakes or got reads, well that's unrealistic. Peach will get reads too. I admit Peach has better setups but G&W's ability to get Peach in a bad spot for juggles or early KOs is good enough.

I am not sure how I can make this any clear. So I'm gonna give this one last shot and play this game with you. Lets say you see me jump and think I will throw out a turnip. I can jump, cancel my jump then land to bait the air dodge. Then punish it with a turnip toss or an upair. You are not understanding the whole point of me sharking you grounded after you up-B. its to see if you would do something or how you would react if i was to go near you. Then fake you out and bait something as the example I just gave. Not me just going in there rambo and attacking you. If I go near you, you are gonna react to something. Wether an attack or airdodge. For me to see what it is and not go in blind, is the point I do this.

Here is one more example. And if you can't get what I mean by baiting and all, I'm gonna end this here. A player is returning towards the stage to land. They see me jump at them with a turnip in hand. Here the player thinks I will attack them. So they air dodge. I had a feeling they would so I gave up the hit to bait the reaction. So I jump towards them then pull back a lil and Z drop the tuirnp a lil early on my jump so they air dodge right into the turnip and I get a follow up off of it to hit them off stage. If they air dodge the turnip they still fell for my frame trap cause I can now punish them with an attack for air dodging my turnip.

it seems to me you are not understanding what I am trying to do while I am sharking you as you are coming down on your up-B. I'm not really just gonna go and hit you. Nor am I really trying too. I am trying to see how the PLAYER reactions in this situation. So I'll move and fact you out to bait something and punish you for it. I'm not just gonna do and do something and not pay attention to how you react to what I do. For this situation, you think I would throw it and I won't. I can make it look like I will and wont, baiting a reaction out of you I can punish. I don't have to always go and attack you. And giving up a hit in this case is smart play for me seeing how you flinch. And if I things like this alot, it becomes hard for you to guess wether to airdodge or wait or just fall with an attack. I can cancel my movement anytime I want instantly thanks to her float. Others cant do this cause they have to wait for the dash animation to end and then the shield comes up. it won't come up soon after you dash. It's baiting, observation, and then going for an educated read based on the most common thing you do based on said situation. And no, I won't always go for the same thing all the time unless i see the player just doing the same thing over and over.

The way I would know what to do in terms of waiting for something then attack, is by sharking you with my movement grounded. This is how I figure out what is the best thing to do. This is how I bait reaction and punish. This is how I keep control of a match. This is thee best way I can put this. This is one of the fundementals of a fighting game. And a very important one. You can't just go in simply attacking without seeing what the opponent would do, You have to check them out and see how they react to things. You have to give up hits. Thats how you go for baits and educated guesses. Now if you seriously can't understand what i am trying to tell you then I'm gonna bother carry on with this anymore.

As for your payoffs:

"shield grab or any grab Peach>Dsmash if she doesn't tech, tech chase>smash or free Fair or dash attack on read iirc"

For one thing, getting a grab on me is not easy, and as you just said, you get that if I don't tech. That is not a hard thing to time. And I said before there is a direction Peach can tech where G&W can't follow up with anything. I believe that is behind him. You also have to decide whether I am gonna sit there and do a get up attack and hit you out of your dashing or wait for me to get up. Thats too hard of a read. And ether way Peach can just tech backwards and you can't follow up with anything. So chances of this happening are not good. if you do get it, good for you.

"Hit with Bair/Nair (full Nair racks up 17% iirc) etc or any time Peach is above and G&W can Uair and juggle- that's a bad situation."

If peach plays a good ground game and not in the air so much, you landing this is also not so easy. but lets say you do get it. If I get baired, I can smash DI out of his bair and get to the other side of him to punish with my bair or nair. As for your nair, That I can also smash DI and not get harrassed in the air so much. I can end up to the sides of G&W and not worried about being juggled as he lands from nair.

"Get Peach offstage and G&W can wall with Fairs> upB>more attacks"

Ok.

And as for the rest of your post, all that is true. But you fail to realize that is not so simple. Average Peach play, yea. A solid one that knows his stuff? No. For they will know now to do things that will grant just juggles and kills, like wanting to be in the air alot. always fairing. Boldling chasing G&W in the air, etc. I can say Peach can do this and that to Meta Knight. But I have to take into account of just how hard it is to do all these things on a solid MK. That's how its determined how good/bad a match up is. Options one has to deal with things and beat a character. Then seeing the difficulty of doing said thing. I can get a solid kill on wario with a grab release. But actually grabbing a solid wario is not easy. if it was then I just get my damage, grab his ass and that's the stock for free.

i have some stuff i can do to G&W that is not so simple. And I have to take that into account. I can't use that as my saving grace ignoring what a challenge it would be to pull it off. That's what I feel you are not understanding. You are saying alot of things that seem to rely on mistakes for you to get rewarded in stead of things that are not simple for him to start something to get damage and kills. Or basic Peach play which is easy to deal with.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not disagreeing because I don't understand how Peach plays, I'm disagreeing because in my experience G&W does have a slight advantage.

A few things:
You're talking about reading player reactions but like I said G&W can get away by upBing. It works.

"And I said before there is a direction Peach can tech where G&W can't follow up with anything. I believe that is behind him."
Not true he can try to read in either direction. Peach can get away better than many characters. It's still a chase. I want to say SH Fair can cover any character(?) G&W can cover most options with one move and the stage can limit options.
"
If I get baired, I can smash DI out of his bair and get to the other side of him to punish with my bair or nair."
Assuming the G&W has terrible spacing, yes. This really shouldn't happen.

A lot of your post is treating the G&W player like they're a scrub.
Anyway, I happen to think it's +/-1 G&W/Peach and for whatever reason the chart says that too. Believe what you want to.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You are flat out wrong about Peach being able to punish Up-B OoS with any degree of consistency, so I'm not going to continue past there.
Not to mention misreading my post as saying that Peach would be coming at G&W with fair, when I actually said that G&W would be hitting Peach with fair, lol...

Reading other little snippets is funny too - "If I get baired, I can smash DI behind him and punish him"
Just
lol

 

[thrillagorilla]

Reading other little snippets is funny too - "If I get baired, I can smash DI behind him and punish him"
Just
lol

lol because...? Praxis used to do this consistently years ago, so I hope you don't mean lol because it isn't possible...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Vids plz
I very much doubt that someone could consistently SDI through a properly-spaced bair (as in, not a 2008 mega deep bair) and punish it

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm not disagreeing because I don't understand how Peach plays, I'm disagreeing because in my experience G&W does have a slight advantage.

A few things:
You're talking about reading player reactions but like I said G&W can get away by upBing. It works.

"And I said before there is a direction Peach can tech where G&W can't follow up with anything. I believe that is behind him."
Not true he can try to read in either direction. Peach can get away better than many characters. It's still a chase. I want to say SH Fair can cover any character(?) G&W can cover most options with one move and the stage can limit options.
"
If I get baired, I can smash DI out of his bair and get to the other side of him to punish with my bair or nair."
Assuming the G&W has terrible spacing, yes. This really shouldn't happen.

A lot of your post is treating the G&W player like they're a scrub.
Anyway, I happen to think it's +/-1 G&W/Peach and for whatever reason the chart says that too. Believe what you want to.

Yea, again you fail to seriously understand what I am talking about with the up-B

Not true? Your chase will not lead to a hit if I roll in that direction. It's too far for you to hit me. I can jab you, block or evade before you get a hit on me.

And this has nothing to do with spacing. Even spaced I can counter attack him with the proper SDI. You just never had it happen to you so you think its not true. I on the other hand have done this many times. And as I said before. I'm not talk talk about something I am not sure of. So what I say here is what I am sure of.

And I honestly don't care about that chart. It's not legit. For people don't know all the options and the difficulty of doing said things from both ends. They just throw stuff out there based on results by players and not exploring characters in depth. So you can believe what you want with your experience. Don't matter to me. I promise you this though, I have never for a Peach with smooth movement and control in the likes of Kie or even me now that I finally got it down.

You are flat out wrong about Peach being able to punish Up-B OoS with any degree of consistency, so I'm not going to continue past there.
Not to mention misreading my post as saying that Peach would be coming at G&W with fair, when I actually said that G&W would be hitting Peach with fair, lol...

Reading other little snippets is funny too - "If I get baired, I can smash DI behind him and punish him"
Just
lol

That's funny to you right? cause you never had it done to you? I have done this many times, and still do today when I fight one. Then someone else said she can and now you ask for vids and make some excuse for this happening. This is why Praxis always said the bair is just a bad move. You and rizen have not played a high level Peach thats knows his stuff. You all stuck on average play. The fact that you said you can dash in to shield her air attacks and grab her shows you don't know what you are talking about. And the fact that you had no Idea she can SDI out of bair to counter attack you. You seriously don't know my options against you, and just go based on your mid level experience. That's why the match up chart is crap.


So yea dude, just stop here and don't talk about things you don't know about.

 

[1PokeMastr]

If GaW does a retreating bair, I don't see you ending up behind him with any amount of SDi.
If not, it's believable.

Also, Peachy boy, they never said "I had no idea Peach can do this with SDi" they said that she can't because they're probably thinking of a retreating Bair.. which you can still SDi up to get out and probably hit with a forward hitting move like Marth can. You're probably talking about a non retreating Bair, which then yes, you can SDi behind him and punish with a fast aerial.

As for grabbing her aerial approaches, if she approaches with Nair, yes. Her fair is 0/-1 on block, so whoever choses the fastest option, wins. Her bair.. you can grab that. Her Dair.. nope, if she's retreating it, nope. I'm also assuming you're talking about her float approaches.. which are done to avoid being grabbed, unless you float that low and don't retreat her dair, then you can go ahead and grab it.