Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Don't forget PK Jump (lagless aerial PKF).
Also, camping doesn't necessarily mean throwing projectiles.
Also, camping doesn't necessarily mean throwing projectiles.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official SWF Tier List v8
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I guess beating M2K, ZeRo (twice), ADHD, Bloodcross and MVD after Apex doesn't count as much then.
Susi
Smash Apprentice
Ness doesn't even need PK Jump for that. FH PK Fire is enough.
Outcamping Snake... It's not simple, I'll give you that. But if you are patient enough Snake gives you an opportunity to instant-throw grenade back to him safely. When he has that soon-to-explode grenade next to him he shields and that's when PKT or aerial PK Fire pokes his shield and now he is in the air.
When he notices that he has to cook his grenades Ness wants to time (aerial) PK Fire so that Snake is trapped to shield his grenade explosion. He can't punish with item in hand. Circling with PKT close to his shield also works because PKT head stops grenades and the tail blows them up.
Okay it's not as straightforward as it sounds. I can't explain every single situation but if Ness has the experience, it's possible to make Snake want to approach.
Outcamping Snake... It's not simple, I'll give you that. But if you are patient enough Snake gives you an opportunity to instant-throw grenade back to him safely. When he has that soon-to-explode grenade next to him he shields and that's when PKT or aerial PK Fire pokes his shield and now he is in the air.
When he notices that he has to cook his grenades Ness wants to time (aerial) PK Fire so that Snake is trapped to shield his grenade explosion. He can't punish with item in hand. Circling with PKT close to his shield also works because PKT head stops grenades and the tail blows them up.
Okay it's not as straightforward as it sounds. I can't explain every single situation but if Ness has the experience, it's possible to make Snake want to approach.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Ah, I forgot that PK Jump was different from FH PK Fire. FH PK Fire is what I was referring to, though. Oopsies.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Hmm.... That seems to be stretching it. I am getting the impression you are talking about neutralizing Snake's projectiles against Ness rather than straight up beating him at it which was my impression at first when you said outcamping. For example, mario could can bother Ganon all day with SH fireballs and ganon is more pressured to advance than Mario ever will be. On the other hand, put Mario with Falco and it becomes less effective. What you are talking about to me seems similar to Ganon just putting up with fireballs all day and powershielding them. He is dealing with projectiles, but ganon is not outcamping Mario.
Even then, Snake can reverse these methods Ness tries to deal with nades at times. Insta-throw nades is not a method for well-timed nades or grenade stripping. I am not sure of this soon to explode nade around snake and PK fire on shield for poking. Shield tilting prevents poking in most circumstances and for me has become habitual to do as snake. Tilt shield near incoming grenade or opponent to prevent poking. From what you described, these are methods to neutralize Snake's grenade usage, but does nothing to actually force his hand.
Even then, Snake can reverse these methods Ness tries to deal with nades at times. Insta-throw nades is not a method for well-timed nades or grenade stripping. I am not sure of this soon to explode nade around snake and PK fire on shield for poking. Shield tilting prevents poking in most circumstances and for me has become habitual to do as snake. Tilt shield near incoming grenade or opponent to prevent poking. From what you described, these are methods to neutralize Snake's grenade usage, but does nothing to actually force his hand.
Susi
Smash Apprentice
Actually their camping is really even (rock paper scissors anyone?), it's hard to explain everything as I said. Ness just gets more out of it when he gets Snake off of ground.
And my approach to this conversation is actually more headed to the practical play, rather than theorycrafting. Perfectly timed grenades and strips and perfect shield tilting is a whole different case. (But I'd believe that Ness can get around those somehow too)
Snake still beats Ness pretty badly even if he couldn't camp as well or at all.
And my approach to this conversation is actually more headed to the practical play, rather than theorycrafting. Perfectly timed grenades and strips and perfect shield tilting is a whole different case. (But I'd believe that Ness can get around those somehow too)
Snake still beats Ness pretty badly even if he couldn't camp as well or at all.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Ftilt ness twice and he's at kill % 
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I love fighting 
as . It's like I have infinite priority vs him.
as . It's like I have infinite priority vs him.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Might wanna read my post more carefully. I said on a level of what he did at apex. And his recent tournament results add not met up with his title for apex Best player in the world takes a world wide tournament. But can't take locals and regionals? SKTAR he got 33rd. before that I think he got 25th or 17th at a local losing to Keitaro and Nakat. For someone who managed to sit in winners from start to finish at a world wide tournament,, taking out some killers then to go to locals, regionals and not be able to destroy that as well? Thats why people are second guessing him and the hype for this character once again fades.
MVD JUST did something big with SKTAR unless he has gone to tournaments and done something equal to that before. if he hasn't, beating him in the past does not get him mega points. Good **** to MVD getting second ( I swear I have to say this cause people ALWAYS wanna take what I say the wrong way) But I wanna see him do it again. I said the same thing about salem whem he beat M2K. I wanna see them fight again and see the results of it. And it came down to salem having his number. So that part was no fluke. If MVD can do something like that again, and Salem manages to beat him, then I can say that is a big win for salem.
Point is recently, Salem has not been doing to hot. And cause of that, the hype for ZSS ons fading once again. And this is not coming for me, for I don't care for such a thing. This is off the communities words and what I hear. If a Player does something with said character, they are on some jebus stuff and that character is too good. Then if they fail, its a fluke and then people changed their minds saying the character sucks. And that's what I find backwards. It makes it seem as the player is the so called character. They give them mistake abilities just for them. BS. The stuff Salem does with her is the same thing every ZSS player in this community can do. Yet why can't they? Because as I said before, the person behind the controller is what matters. Yet the hype and put down of a character should not be going up and down.
You got it backwards. Peach should not be float happy vs olimar. That will get her destroyed. People think with peach they have to be floating to everything thrown at them. Thats a lie. There are certain times you just can't. And when they get shut down for it, they don't know what to do. So just keep trying and hoping for the best. You have to think outside the box. And alot play her flowchart happy. By now people know how to deal with that type of play. And Peach players don't don't really get anywhere. Or do as good as they SHOULD be.
The most coming issue (and I say very important one) Peach players come to me about and what I see in vids is approaching olimar. Some Peach players don't have a ground game. Or its just weak. Olimar is ****** that. As well as her trying to get in alot from the air. Peach has to approach grounded. It's the best option to get in on olimar. If olimar is tossing pikmin, Peach can ground float nairs to kill them. She can kill about 3 with one attack. From here she can cancel her nair, and move into olimar. Another Method to approach olimar is glide tossing at the right time and distance. A turnip can block pikmin and you can get close to olimar. A good mixture of this is with turnip in hand. Ground float Nair>Glide toss. It's one of the better ways to get inside him with a turnip. The turnip can force a block, make him evade the turnip or snuff him out of pivot grab attempts. I have been grabbed by olimar and has the turnip I tossed at him break up the grab before he could even get damage.
When Peach is granted a chance to get close to him, another common mistake I see is they wanna go and float to dair/fairs. This is bad and here is why.
- Takes 16 frames to Float/Dair. 21 frames to Float/fair. (time for this is extended if you are trying to float at the right height vs Olimar.)
- Olimar can easily punish you for just a thing. Or evade and he just plays keep away some more racking damage.
- Waist up/ Peach is exposed off her dair.
The way olimar would usually play her, they want to force her to do something so they can get a clean hit, or keep some distance away from her to get some damage. Rushing into that (really from the air) with her slow moves is gonna leave her open for easy hits and an easy stock. So once peach gets close to him will killing some pikmin, She has to know what her options are against olimar. And also what the player would do based on his data fishing. It's best for Peach to stay out of pivot grab range if she goes in without a turnip. If she is out of pivot range, olimar is not really a treat (as long as she is grounded) Tossing pikmin that are not purple is a free punishment for Peach. Olimar methods to appoach (really at this range) are not as great as peach. And his spacing games is not as fast (via ground float) and safe as insurance. This is also important to know cause usually the way olimars play, then usually been themselves to the ledge. Too keep playing this game of cops and rubbers, he has to get to the other side of the stage. meaning he has to get past YOU.
So with the approach methods and forcing come kind of defense option (or offense), You can go in and punish him or pressure his shield. Once Peach has olimar on shield, he is nearly free to open up with GOOD pressure. ( No, I don't mean float to dair to another dair, or drop to nair/jab). Olimar does not have a solid option to counter, just like the rest of the cast that does not have an up-B in the likes of Marth. His roll and side step frames are bad. Most characters would be able to roll out or side step out of my pressure. Olimar can't do that if he blocks a fair. I will hit him out of his roll and side steps before he becomes invincible.
Dsmash= 17 frames out of shield. Not happening.
Fsmash= 18 frames out of shield. Yea ok.....
Upsmash= 15 frames out of shield. Even if he jump cancels to upsmash, still not gonna punish me.
Trying to jump out of air moves also not happening. On top of that I have advantage on olimar for landing a Jab on him.Leaving me with +4 from the first Part of her Jab. So It's a Matter of what the Peach player does once She gets in on olimar. And it's also based on the player. If Peach does not pay attention to how one deals with her pressure on or in range, all this will mean nothing and olmiar gets away with crap for free. This is why it's important to being able to adaapt to what the player is doing. Just knowing a match up means nothing if you can't figure out to what the enemy is doing. 100000000000000000000000000000000 people play olimar. Do all this people play him the exact same way? Do they react the same way to what you do and don't do? No.
With that, a basic rundown of what they both have on each other.
Olimar-
- Can rack up damage quick at any percent.
- Can get quick kills.
- Lives longer (unless gimped)
- Can force her to stay ground
- Give her trouble while on platroms.
- Cancel out turnips
- Gives her trouble landing
- Can force an approach.
Peach-
- Can close the gap without much of a problem.
- Can kill up to 3 pikmin with a single attack while advancing.
- Can gimp with timed turnip cancels and/or zdrops
- Has no solid answer her Pressure.
- Gives trouble while on platforms.
- Mutiple ways to keep him off stage.
- Can force an approach ( if she has the lead and he is tossing pikmin, I can EASILY kill thim and take no damage.)
I'm fairly certain the win against MVD was the weekend after SKTAR
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Yeah salem took a set over mvd at a local the week after sktar 2
One tournament/ tournament win means nothing. At this point there are more than just a handful of players that can compete for first place at most tournaments.
One tournament/ tournament win means nothing. At this point there are more than just a handful of players that can compete for first place at most tournaments.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
So it was after MVD stepped his game up then. Alright. I wanna see them play again. And i wanna see MVD do what he did at a tournament such as SKTAR at another big event for me to really get a better few of it all.
The television used for the sktar stream was discarded two weeks later due to it being found to lag.
#conspiracytheoriesandflorida'sLCDTVPractise
#conspiracytheoriesandflorida'sLCDTVPractise
Djent
Smash Champion
I'd believe Marth, but I'm incredulous regarding Pikachu. What matchups make her more relevant than a great Falco/Snake CP? Or is it just a more even MU spread overall?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Revive the best thread to ever come to smashboards: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-top-5-brawl-us-can-mex.296541/
And make me owner of the thread!
I support this notion
Not this one though. Make flaocmaster666 the thread owner.And make me owner of the thread!
In all seriousness, Seagull would probably do a good job running the thread.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Copy paste the thread and make yourself the owner by making a new one.
The mods will likely close it instantly like they did every other time somebody tried that.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Not auto-losing to MK for one
Pikachu doesn't look so good in practice. All I can really go on is ESAM I guess, but I'd say there are like 6 or 7 better characters to use vs MK based on results alone.
Once a smart pika like ESAM starts pulling off QAC locks in tournament, I guess that could change.
Once a smart pika like ESAM starts pulling off QAC locks in tournament, I guess that could change.
MeekSpeedy
Smash Ace
pls do this, or at the very least unlock the thread. Idc who the owner is, that thread was so great.Revive the best thread to ever come to smashboards: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-top-5-brawl-us-can-mex.296541/
And make me owner of the thread!
MeekSpeedy
Smash Ace
PLLLLLLEEEEEEEEAAAAAAASEEEEEE??? :3
Loota
Smash Journeyman
That is true but I have watched that replay without hacks on and the exactly same thing happens if you are willing to believe me. Also, ZSS having a pretty consistent way of going through also backs it up that it's indeed possible to go through accidentally or not.
Funny, you mentioned going through Frigate and I happen to have just the right video showing the thing
RaptorTEC
Smash Champion
Top 5 thread will never be opened again so someone make a top 3 thread and copy and paste the old one with the top 3 only. Loophole
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Open the top 5 butthurt players thread pls
Djent
Smash Champion
It's not an auto loss, but it's certainly not even either. And if we're going strictly by results, ZSS does do better. Neither character is in danger of consistently beating MKs that know the matchup well, though.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
lol, ZSS is not better vs MK than Pikachu. Who exactly are some of you referring to? Before mentioning Tyrant, he's probably the second player Ive trained with offline most besides Larry and got a shout-out mid stream for his understanding of the MU (I've played Doom as well who commentated the match); on top of the fact that hes played Z quite a bit as well. He's the most knowledgeable and in contention for best MK at the MU besides maybe someone like Otori who is just an outstanding player. ESAM's understanding of fighting MK could be better, its pretty noticeable if you understand the MU enough and I think even hes aware, he just doesnt have the experience. However he gets by on his outstanding skill as a player and pika having a natural tendency to do well vs MK even if you arent an expert in the MU.
Also the MU is even.
Also the MU is even.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
No.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Any time.
Djent
Smash Champion
Err, I'm sorry, WHAT?!? He plays Seibrik on a regular basis and has squared off against the best MKs from all over (and outside) the country. If this doesn't count as sufficient exerience, I can't see how your sessions with Tyrant possibly could. Either that, or ESAM is a very slow learner (despite being amazing at every other aspect of the game).
IIRC, here are some of ESAM's win-records against OoR MKs
1-5 vs. M2K (the win was in late 2011, and he's lost their past 3 sets).
2-3 vs. Tyrant (all but the most recent of these come from the MLG era).
1-2 vs. Anti (only managing the 1 win with ICs last summer).
1-2 vs. Zero (with their most recent encounter ending in a double 2-stock).
0-2 vs. Nairo (1-4 in Pika vs. MK games from SKTAR 1).
Note that the last 3 MKs listed here are actually less experienced in the MU than ESAM is. Pika's "natural tendency" on display?
Probably not.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
What does that have to do with ZSS? However, speaking with decent experience and understanding of mathematics and stats, tossing numbers with extremely low sample sizes and massive unstated assumptions is pointless and useless. Like the creditors who tried to claim the economy was fine in 2008 or peeps who tried to ban MK with an online poll. Unfortunately this isnt baseball.IIRC, here are some of ESAM's win-records against OoR MKs
1-5 vs. M2K (the win was in late 2011, and he's lost their past 3 sets).
2-3 vs. Tyrant (all but the most recent of these come from the MLG era).
1-2 vs. Anti (only managing the 1 win with ICs last summer).
1-2 vs. Zero (with their most recent encounter ending in a double 2-stock).
0-2 vs. Nairo (1-4 in Pika vs. MK games from SKTAR 1).
Note that the last 3 MKs listed here are actually less experienced in the MU than ESAM is. Pika's "natural tendency" on display?
While Im glad you feel confident in your assessment in pikas MU ratio vs MK. Maybe you can help me with a couple questions.
Many inexperienced pikas seem to believe dair camping is a difficult strategy for pika to handle. Can you explain to me why dair doesnt shut out pika, which move is best used to combat it, and why MK in the air against pika is a pretty bad sitution for him overall?
Many pikachus ESAM included have pretty bad habits when using QAC, particularly when going for QAC nair kills. Can you state what that habit is and how it relates to QA's weakness overall?
Meta Knight has a hard time approaching pikachu in comparison to characters such as Marth, Diddy, ROB, Wario, and others. Can you explain why and what common situation causes him to make approaching easier?
Not sure if you noticed, but double check the players I practice with. I play with most of SoCals best players, and for almost all of them their best character is either MK or their second best is, on top of an abundance of high level MK's as well. I understand how this MU works. Can't force you to change your personal opinion on it, but I will force you to back it up with sufficient knowledge and reasoning if its to be taken seriously.
Because I have a deep understanding of my character and how to fight MK. Because fighting one high/top level MK over and over in a region that's more or less banned MK during a significant growth in MKs meta-game will limit what you can learn about a MU and leave holes in your gameplay. And playing strong MKs a couple hours every 6 months is not sufficient to fill those gaps. Its not too hard to see that the regions that produce the strongest top level players at fighting MK also come from the same region with a strong MK presence (Japan, NY/NJ, SoCal).
The numbers are pointless and while Im perfectly glad to no one ever wants to discuss specifics with pika, so instead we're stuck with lots of strong opinions on the matter and no supporting evidence
Djent
Smash Champion
The players I listed are all considered national-level threats and have achieved great success within their own regions. So there goes the skill confound that could potentially be raised if I were citing Z vs. Mew2King.
Save for maybe Tyrant, none of them actually have more experience playing Pikachu than ESAM does against MK. Some of them actually have less experience. When have Zero, Anti, and Nairo played good Pikachus outside of ESAM? He could have drawn on his apparently severely limited! pool of matchup knowledge, but at least he has something.
The only real problem with the numbers I listed is that some of them are really freakin' old. But if you only count sets from the past year, you only get one significant win Pika has over MK (vs. Zero), while retaining 2 losses to Zero, 2 to Nairo, 1 to Tyrant, 1 to Anti, and 1 to M2K. Having established that these guys (save for Tyrant again) are at best equally-experienced in the MU, I wonder: given that the odds of Pika beating MK should be about 50%, what are the chances he'd lose 7/8 important matches against MKs of comparable (in?)experience and ability? That's a really low-probability outcome even in the relatively-small sample.
Of course, I don't state these things because they should be obvious, and I think you're probably smart enough to see them without demanding people to spell them out. But as long as you can cite "massive unstated assumptions" without examples, you look smart without having to do any work. And the person you're arguing with has to waste time spelling it out or just give up out of boredom.
If you've got answers to these problems, by all means I'd love to hear them. Asking ME to explain why the matchup isn't actually that bad when I think it's 6:4 Metaknight is kind of silly. Unless there's only one possible way for someone with True Matchup Knowledge™ to answer these questions, and I'm somehow disqualifying myself by letting you do the talking. I will say that the first question is a bit...leading, though. Dair camping a character that threatens vertical space well is probably a bad idea (uair is fast and sets up for silly stuff). The MKs who I've seen do well normally try to wall Pika horizontally with fairs and tilts.
Unfortunately, I have no footage from these practice sessions - could I watch any of them in a stream archive somewhere? If not, I'd agree with the "no supporting evidence" bit, because in that case there's no objectively-accessible method of assessing the content of those sets. If people are reluctant to engage you, it's probably because they basically have to take your word for how these things go. At least with ESAM we actually have common footage that carefully documents how to lose to MK. Embarrass
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
So much this.
Deathconsciousness
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 826
damn you guys sound mad af i recommend some weed and a godspeed you! black emperor album
Djent
Smash Champion
Definitely yes to the latter. It's been awhile since I lifted my skinny fists like antennas to heaven.
And this is exactly why people stopped arguing with ESAM and Tagxy when it came to Matchup discussions. Like trying to break a brick wall with your head.