Official SWF Tier List v8

[Phan7om]

Damn, were deciding the tier list on whether or not they are good in dubs now?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Actually pidge you made a great post on the page I left when you talked about subjectivity and opinion. Ah wellsies. :3

I think Lucas has the capabilities to be at around the same level as Ness on that hypothetical tier list. Magnet cancel to Dair is very rarely punished by most grounded opponents (save a couple. MK can die in a hole) and Nair to combo more or less keeps Lucas in a position where he can shield pressure at least one for some time or at the least keep them occupied and due to that aggressive playstyle means that if the other player wants to go in they risk punishing their own team-mate. That said.... yeah there's definitely better (my hypothetical situation obviously has quite a few 'holes' or scenarios where that just obviously fails) and Ness certainly has more options in this regard, I just think that Lucas doesn't fall as short as you make him out to, Gashi.

Anyway, hey guys, good to see you again. Probably won't be around as much these days but i'd like to hear more about other MUs. I remember back when I used to frequent here that people got annoyed with me for talking too specifically about my mains, so it'll be fun to contribute to other stuff every now and then. :-)

>pidge
>good post
>Does not compute
>does not compute
>does not klnkfslmsgkk
>............................

Doesn't Lucas have an easier time vs MK than Ness, or am I literally an asshole?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ness' fair singlehandedly has a better match up with MK than Lucas.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Though Lucas does have a couple transcendent aerial moves that can couple (don't want to say combo as they can be escaped or even teched) into his ground KO moves, Lucas lacks an aerial KO (uair could be, but is inferior to Ness's) move that doesn't take so much of commitment (bair). Since Lucas is not that stellar on the ground either, this leaves Lucas in a curious state of having moves that can kill, but no means of truly connecting them.

 

[Luco]

Though Lucas does have a couple transcendent aerial moves that can couple (don't want to say combo as they can be escaped or even teched) into his ground KO moves, Lucas lacks an aerial KO (uair could be, but is inferior to Ness's) move that doesn't take so much of commitment (bair). Since Lucas is not that stellar on the ground either, this leaves Lucas in a curious state of having moves that can kill, but no means of truly connecting them.

Uair on Lucas is only inferior to Ness' in terms of power. It's better in most other aspects - It hits faster and finishes its animation in less frames than Ness (proven with frame data). I'd say it's a very viable move and is often used. In terms of killing, Lucas is certainly inferior to Ness... but that's not usually as much of an issue in doubles because your partner can cover for you (which actually is a viable situation that happens reasonably consistently in doubles, that if one character can't get a kill move off and the other has easier kill moves then the latter character will tend to land the kill move over the former).

In regards to Gashi, healing alone (and the fact that Lucas healing is easier than Ness healing - once again I can prove that with frame data and also my own experience ) keeps Lucas in the same tier as Ness - because whether he can handle 2 or 1 characters at once is irrelevant, it only takes a few moments for stage control to switch in some cases and that's all he needs. Both he and Ness serve the same role - Ness serves it better but the role itself is totally invaluable, filled by no other character in quite the same way. Even Snake and DDD don't live as long in their doubles teams as the average Ness/Lucas in a healer team.

@Pidge: Nah, Ness does better against the bat, mainly because he can survive on ground. Lucas being able to recover more easily in this MU doesn't really help him when he can't really survive on stage. As much as I like to preach its safety, even a perfectly spaced retreating SHPKF doesn't stop an MK reaching you if he PS-es it (Iirc). That also applies to a few other quick characters, it's just that MK really gets a lot out of it.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Uair on Lucas is only inferior to Ness' in terms of power. It's better in most other aspects - It hits faster and finishes its animation in less frames than Ness (proven with frame data). I'd say it's a very viable move and is often used. In terms of killing, Lucas is certainly inferior to Ness... but that's not usually as much of an issue in doubles because your partner can cover for you (which actually is a viable situation that happens reasonably consistently in doubles, that if one character can't get a kill move off and the other has easier kill moves then the latter character will tend to land the kill move over the former).

In regards to Gashi, healing alone (and the fact that Lucas healing is easier than Ness healing - once again I can prove that with frame data and also my own experience ) keeps Lucas in the same tier as Ness - because whether he can handle 2 or 1 characters at once is irrelevant, it only takes a few moments for stage control to switch in some cases and that's all he needs. Both he and Ness serve the same role - Ness serves it better but the role itself is totally invaluable, filled by no other character in quite the same way. Even Snake and DDD don't live as long in their doubles teams as the average Ness/Lucas in a healer team.

@Pidge: Nah, Ness does better against the bat, mainly because he can survive on ground. Lucas being able to recover more easily in this MU doesn't really help him when he can't really survive on stage. As much as I like to preach its safety, even a perfectly spaced retreating SHPKF doesn't stop an MK reaching you if he PS-es it (Iirc). That also applies to a few other quick characters, it's just that MK really gets a lot out of it.

Isn't Ness uair easier o chain together and has a bigger hitbox? If we are deciding who is the best character in the games based on doubles, then shouldn't that be a new thread?

 

[pidgezero_one]

a dubs tier list actually would be cool

 

[Luco]

Isn't Ness uair easier o chain together and has a bigger hitbox? If we are deciding who is the best character in the games based on doubles, then shouldn't that be a new thread?

Yeah, it probably should, but a little bit of discussion here doesn't really overly matter, so I thought i'd run with it a while.

I haven't checked hitbox size actually, that's a rather valid point. I still think Lucas wins in terms of accessability. Doesn't really matter though i suppose; both use it a lot as a tool. :-)

 

[PKBeam]

Ness is just better in so many ways and can play Lucas' role on a team plus many more while doing them just as well if not better.

Ness has a poor recovery. That's a pretty big setback for a stock tank. It doesn't really matter if you take a giant 30% heal from a Thunder if you just get gimped right after.
And (this isn't as important, but) Lucas heals more than Ness from magnet.

Lucas lacks an aerial KO move

Usmash has so much range you could just call it one.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucas' isnt much better, in a dubs situation, its a lot more unsafe to try and gimp most of the time since the teammate help protect them/attack you while you try to gimp, so even though Lucas' recovery is slightly safer and longer range, its not much better. Plus, onstage, Ness is way more safe and wont be getting hit as much either, so Lucas will still die more often. And the healing thing doesnt matter, Ness should take less damage than Lucas in dubs and even with Lucas healing a bit more Ness should still stonk tank and zone better.

And uair is not an aerial kill move. At all.

 

[PKBeam]

slightly safer and longer range,
what... it's a lot safer, he has at least 3 options and his overall recovery gives him huge range compared to Ness'.
And uair is not an aerial kill move. At all.
it kills really late but it does still kill (sort of), depending on where you use it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I meant usmash but I typed uair lol.

 

[Luco]

I meant usmash but I typed uair lol.

Wat? Since when did Usmash come into that at all?

I think you're misunderstanding the terms stock tank, because in the direct sense of the word, both fulfill that role to approximately the same ability (the ability to take damage whilst giving minimal damage back and, in the case of the healers, being able to heal it all back. What you're referring to is that when not healing, Ness can perform the job of actually doing things to the opponents better. My argument is that while that warrants him a position above Lucas, just the fact that lucas has healing means he can stock tank and so what if he can't do damage as efficiently as Ness if he still gets it done albeit he takes longer and finds it slightly harder? Healing is godlike, that's why the top players of Lucas and Ness (specifically Mekos and Shaky) consistently go well in doubles and in several cases, win.

I agree that Lucas finds it harder to handle several players at once and will die more than Ness. I don't think the difference in their abilities is enough to warrant a full tier's distance. If you look at the relevant facts and consider the evidence, it seems to me that both happen to do really really well in doubles with people that use the healing strat.

You can go ahead and tell me that Lucas gets worse positions than Ness (I can't actually recall exact positions so I have no idea) but I doubt you'll find sufficient evidence on a top level of play that will suggest that Ness out-classes Lucas in his role to the level that warrants that kind of difference in position save perhaps for Apex where I don't really believe Mekos was going primarily for the healing strat or if he was then I don't believe he was using it as much as he could have.

 

[PKBeam]

I meant usmash but I typed uair lol.

I was joking.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The point I dont think youre getting is partner versatility. Lucas is a VERY outclassed teammate if he doesnt go for healing strats. In order to be worth even using in teams, he NEEDS to use healing strats, otherwise you could go almost anyone else and do better. Ness doesnt need to do healing strats, he's perfectly fine, capable, and USEFUL without the healing strats, and then he can ALSO do the healing strats. THAT is why Ness should be much higher than Lucas. And Im not going to argue with you two about Lucas anymore, he's nowhere near as good as you two are thinking he is. Just because he's really good with 2-3 other characters doesnt make Lucas good, especially when those 2-3 characters he's good with are already good on their own.

Ness >>> Lucas in teams by quite a noticeable margin, and if you cant see that for yourself, you need to take a step back and think about the whole picture, and by that I mean viability with the OVERALL cast , not just the couple he does really well with.

 

[Luco]

The point I dont think youre getting is partner versatility. Lucas is a VERY outclassed teammate if he doesnt go for healing strats. In order to be worth even using in teams, he NEEDS to use healing strats, otherwise you could go almost anyone else and do better. Ness doesnt need to do healing strats, he's perfectly fine, capable, and USEFUL without the healing strats, and then he can ALSO do the healing strats. THAT is why Ness should be much higher than Lucas. And Im not going to argue with you two about Lucas anymore, he's nowhere near as good as you two are thinking he is. Just because he's really good with 2-3 other characters doesnt make Lucas good, especially when those 2-3 characters he's good with are already good on their own.

Ness >>> Lucas in teams by quite a noticeable margin, and if you cant see that for yourself, you need to take a step back and think about the whole picture, and by that I mean viability with the OVERALL cast , not just the couple he does really well with.

Alright, one last thing then.

Would you be able to show me some instances where Ness places particularly and notably high without use of the healing strat?

 

[ぱみゅ]

And this, Gashi, is precisely why I proposed a description on usage and strategies rather than a Tier List for Doubles.

 

[Man Li Gi]

OMG, why are we still talking about dubs? Everyone knows that the best team out there is double Snake

 

[Z'zgashi]

Alright, one last thing then.

Would you be able to show me some instances where Ness places particularly and notably high without use of the healing strat?

FOW has teamed with SK92 and placed really well a lot. Sure Ness CAN heal off Falcos lasers, but they never really do it often. Also, FOW has placed really well with MJG a lot, just he mostly uses MK now so its hard to really know which placements he used who.

 

[socandrewcer]

OMG, why are we still talking about dubs? Everyone knows that the best team out there is double Snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cljEjbeOGk

The first match shows how broken Double Snake is lol

FOW has teamed with SK92 and placed really well a lot.

To be fair, FOW did use mk mostly.

Edit: But FOW always uses Ness when he teams with a MK like M2K





For realz though. Look at all this discussion. This is what the Brawl community needs. Not to mention it can be something new to talk about.

#FreeDubzTierList

 

[1PokeMastr]

Double Jiggs is banned.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Double Jiggs is banned.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Man Li Gi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cljEjbeOGk

The first match shows how broken Double Snake is lol



To be fair, FOW did use mk mostly.

Edit: But FOW always uses Ness when he teams with a MK like M2K





For realz though. Look at all this discussion. This is what the Brawl community needs. Not to mention it can be something new to talk about.

#FreeDubzTierList

I know man, I was referencing that vid. There a couple others like that too.

 

[1PokeMastr]

One Jiggs is enough in doubles.

Do you even know how high on the tier list Jiggs is ?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

One Jiggs is enough in doubles.

Do you even know how high on the tier list Jiggs is ?

Did you really ask me that? It's like you don't even know who I am.

But I guess I should have realized that at the last tournament

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS/GaW would be the best team in the game were it not ****ed by Meta Knight teams.

I don't think there's a single team comp out there that can really deal with it, MK notwithstanding.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Wait, are you implying that MK+any other is better than any other possible combination?

 

[Luco]

FOW has teamed with SK92 and placed really well a lot. Sure Ness CAN heal off Falcos lasers, but they never really do it often. Also, FOW has placed really well with MJG a lot, just he mostly uses MK now so its hard to really know which placements he used who.

The lastest vid I can find of them is about 4 years ago...

As for MJG and FOW, the latest I can find there is 9 months ago but FOW seems to use TL in his matches there. :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wait, are you implying that MK+any other is better than any other possible combination?

Not necessarily (although it's probably the case), just that MK teams wreck GaW/ZSS but nothing else really does.

 

[Thor]

The lastest vid I can find of them is about 4 years ago...

As for MJG and FOW, the latest I can find there is 9 months ago but FOW seems to use TL in his matches there. :/

Is there a problem with Shaky+Nick Riddle matches? There are some from both SKTAR 2 and APEX 2014. Or did I miss the part where people covered why we have to look at FOW's Ness?

 

[Osennecho]

Not necessarily (although it's probably the case), just that MK teams wreck GaW/ZSS but nothing else really does.

You quoted yourself bro. The narcism is strong

 

[Z'zgashi]

Is there a problem with Shaky+Nick Riddle matches? There are some from both SKTAR 2 and APEX 2014. Or did I miss the part where people covered why we have to look at FOW's Ness?

He said not counting the magnet strats, and all Shaky/Nick do in dubs is Magnet strats.

 

[Thor]

He said not counting the magnet strats, and all Shaky/Nick do in dubs is Magnet strats.

Ah. Had to reread a ways up for that, but thanks.

Though, I have to wonder, why would someone play Ness in teams if they're not gonna heal? Like, MK/Ness? Most MKs would look for a different teammate XD.

That said, when NR goes down before Shaky does, you can still see some of the points the "Ness is better than Lucas in doubles" side is making. Though I see why a full video of this would obviously be more useful.

 

[infiniteV115]

Even outside of the healing factor, Ness is much better in dubs than he is in singles because his weaknesses are mitigated in dubs. Those primarily being that he can get gimped easily (can be saved in dubs) and the grab release shenanigans (if Ness doesn't mash then his teammate has plenty of time to come interrupt the grab)

What you have now is a very mobile character with great damage output, great kill power (especially in teams where he can land kill moves like fsmash/PKT2/PK flash that he'll almost never land in singles), can kill off of a grab, and can pressure very well.

 

[Luco]

Ah. Had to reread a ways up for that, but thanks.

Though, I have to wonder, why would someone play Ness in teams if they're not gonna heal? Like, MK/Ness? Most MKs would look for a different teammate XD.

That said, when NR goes down before Shaky does, you can still see some of the points the "Ness is better than Lucas in doubles" side is making. Though I see why a full video of this would obviously be more useful.

Hm, I just got deja vu of this post. That's funny. :o

Anywho, it doesn't surprise me if NR goes down before shaky because that's the point of the stock tank

@V: I get what you're saying - but theoretically Lucas' weaknesses are also less prevalent. We've established that Ness is better than Lucas in terms of his overall ability but what we haven't established is whether that makes a large difference, one big enough to make a tier's difference. And as Gashi and I were just discussing, there doesn't seem to be any recent evidence in top play of a Ness main going well in doubles without use of the healing strat.

 

[mimgrim]

All this dubs talk and no one mentions Wario? That's kinda sad.

 

[infiniteV115]

I haven't been following the discussion entirely, I was just responding to Thor's post. Yes Lucas' weaknesses are also mitigated in doubles, but outside of the healing strat, his strengths aren't as good as Ness'. Lucas' main damaging moves like nair and dair (which are also his best pressure options) are SDIable, so the pressure is more easily escaped and so is the damage. They also require Lucas to attack from a less safe position than Ness' pressure option (fair). Ness can more easily tack on damage with meaty moves like uair/bair/dair, and the chip damage from fair pressure, the occasional nairs, PK fires and throws are all good for dealing damage. His super-kill moves (smashes) are stronger than Ness' super kill moves (PKT2/PK flash, and I guess fsmash), but for both of these characters these moves don't connect often (and when they do, it's usually an elaborate setup like the 4th Impact combo or some sort of lock involving a forced reset). Outside of these ridiculous-strength kill moves, Ness' kill power is significantly better because he has uair/bair/bthrow as options, and none of these are particularly hard to land. Dair also kills but doesn't really connect as often as the aforementioned 3. Nair also kills, but later. Lucas' equivalents of these would be uair (much weaker than Ness'), dthrow (much weaker than Ness' bthrow), fair (weaker than Ness' bair), dair (weaker than Ness' dair, also DIable/SDIable), ftilt (about as strong and easy to land as Ness' nair, maybe a little harder to land), and I guess fsmash is sorta an intermediate between his viable kill moves and his ridiculous kill moves because it's a lot faster than Ness'.

And in general Ness can followup off his own moves better than Lucas can because Ness' moves put him at better positional advantages than Lucas'.

 

[Luco]

I haven't been following the discussion entirely, I was just responding to Thor's post. Yes Lucas' weaknesses are also mitigated in doubles, but outside of the healing strat, his strengths aren't as good as Ness'. Lucas' main damaging moves like nair and dair (which are also his best pressure options) are SDIable, so the pressure is more easily escaped and so is the damage. They also require Lucas to attack from a less safe position than Ness' pressure option (fair). Ness can more easily tack on damage with meaty moves like uair/bair/dair, and the chip damage from fair pressure, the occasional nairs, PK fires and throws are all good for dealing damage. His super-kill moves (smashes) are stronger than Ness' super kill moves (PKT2/PK flash, and I guess fsmash), but for both of these characters these moves don't connect often (and when they do, it's usually an elaborate setup like the 4th Impact combo or some sort of lock involving a forced reset). Outside of these ridiculous-strength kill moves, Ness' kill power is significantly better because he has uair/bair/bthrow as options, and none of these are particularly hard to land. Dair also kills but doesn't really connect as often as the aforementioned 3. Nair also kills, but later. Lucas' equivalents of these would be uair (much weaker than Ness'), dthrow (much weaker than Ness' bthrow), fair (weaker than Ness' bair), dair (weaker than Ness' dair, also DIable/SDIable), ftilt (about as strong and easy to land as Ness' nair, maybe a little harder to land), and I guess fsmash is sorta an intermediate between his viable kill moves and his ridiculous kill moves because it's a lot faster than Ness'.

And in general Ness can followup off his own moves better than Lucas can because Ness' moves put him at better positional advantages than Lucas'.

I get that, it's just that, considering this should be the case, there should be Ness strats that don't involve healing that go far better than Lucas non-healing strats. Neither to me seem to go very well and the ones that use it both do go very well. Mekos for Lucas and Shaky for Ness (among other counterparts) have both gone really really solidly over the past few years. My argument isn't which is better, but whether the difference in options means they're a few characters apart, or a whole tier. Due to my argument that we don't have evidence of Ness going well without a healing strat recently (nor Lucas obv.), I don't believe it is.

 

[infiniteV115]

There aren't really any solo Ness mains anymore; FOW switched to MK and Shaky co-mains Ness alongside ZSS now (if not having fully switched to ZSS). idk about Japan.

Shaky lives in a region where one of their best players plays (arguably) the best character for healing Ness (ZSS) so they ran a healing team.

FOW has had an MK for quite a while so I imagine in dubs he'd mostly (if not always) go MK, a better character in dubs. I saw him team with ZeRo that one time and win, but outside of that I've only seen his MK in dubs (except the time he teamed with Mekos...lol)

...There aren't really any other notable Ness mains AFAIK.

Mekos pretty much always ran healing teams too, whether with ESAM, Larry, or FOW XD I don't think I've seen him team with anybody else. He's pretty picky with his teammates and will often say things like "I'm not travelling to this tourney unless I can secure a good partner for dubs"

Dunno who Pink Fresh teams with. I don't really follow MD/VA that much.
I know FAE teamed with Bio (a ZSS) back when Bio still played. Don't even know if FAE still plays
The only other Lucas players I've seen in doubles are Blacktwins (who teams with my ZSS lol) and the japanese ones that run the healing anubis, but without the healing the anubis factor is gone and then the whole team falls apart...

You also seem to be forgetting that even the PKKids are still decent/good without healing, you're still better off teaming with a character that CAN heal you. And they aren't good to the extent that somebody who in singles plays a not-great character in dubs (eg a Marth/Falco/ICs player) would pick them up just for dubs, because you could just pick up MK/Wario for dubs instead.

 

[BlueXenon]

Pink Fresh doesn't play brawl anymore. I thought it was simply because brawl died in his region, but he no longer enters brawl in pm focused tournaments outside his region, and he confirmed for me in a twitch chat that he really did quit brawl.

There is a Ness main in Japan named Fsann, however, since I know very little about Ness, I am not able to judge his skill level. He could just be a regular high level player or he could be near top level play.