Official Stage Legality Discussion

[LoOshKiN]

Simply put, nobody judges the stages in terms of how fair they are, people look for how unfair something is.

-assuming you were talking about my list, frankly, i dont like it either. I like it as a guideline for now, with some intricacies to determine the validity of the bans i have on there. Until some advanced technique appears for some character, im pretty sure that the stages i had under CP or neutral (maybe iwth the exception of halberd as neutral, but im pushing for neutral on that) will not be banned, meanwhile the a lot of the ones i have as banned will most likely become CP.

That first sentence in your quote (simply put...etc) is really good.

I was reffering to DevilDigimon's list.

 

[DrewbyDewby]

great posts guys

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I was reffering to DevilDigimon's list.

completely missed his list lol

This what I'm using for the tournaments I run:


Banned Stages:
* Mushromy Kingdom - impossible to k.o up, slow moving side scroller (not really a "big" issue. but due to all the multi level stage terrains it's just not tourney worthy)
* Frigate Orphen - stage flippy flop (delays flow of match)
* Norfair - see ssbm "Brinstar"
* Pirate Ship - yes the stage hazards (like enemy ship projectiles) can be avoided, but after "the storm" part in the stage it turns into wind mode from Pokemon Stadium 2 (see Pokemon Stadium 2 for details)
* Rumble Falls - see ssbm "Ice Climbers Mountain"
* Pokemon Stadium 2 - during wind mode Samus can't be touched and u can't fast fall at regular speed, during electric mode u can't edge hog, icy mode movement is altered, cool stage just not tournament able
* Spear Pillar - stage has too many hazards some at high levels, controller confusion, stage flippy flop (delays flow of match
* Distant Planet - items stage (possible weapon use), other than that I would have made this a counter pick stage
* Wario Ware - as much as I like "Ashley's Song", this stage must be banned...too many terrain switches, gimmicks and task need to be completed, if there was an option to turn that off I'd make this a default stage
* New York City - see temple
* Summit -
* 75M - see mario bros. but not as many stage hazards, and terrains are super small
* Mario Bros. - super hard to k.o on this stage (especially to k.o "up") , super consistent stage hazards, to be honest this stage is pretty ****ing stupid
* Flat Zone 2 - see ssbm "flat zone"
* Pictochat - terrain changes too often, mid stage hazards, some parts characters are locked in area may delay the game, I don't really like this stage too much
* Temple - see ssbm
* Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World will be abbreviated SMW for now on) - see ssbm
* Green Greens - items stage (regain health and possible weapon use), that is the only thing I saw wrong with this stage, I mean the bombs u can completely avoid, or use them for set ups vs. your opponent
* Big Blue - see ssbm
* Brinstar - see ssbm
* Port Town Aero Drive - mid damage stage hazards, stage terrain changes too often, small platforms, huge pot hole, serious camping (turtling), but it does look cool
* Shadow Moses Island - before walls are removed only available k.o is "Up" and some characters have horrible "u-smashes", D.D.D chain grab vs. big opponents next to wall super hard to escape (**** near can't), to be honest if those walls weren't there I'd make this a default stage
* Hannenbow - no tether recovery
* Custom Stages

Default Random Stages (10):
* Battle Field - the 2nd most basic stage in the game, no issues no worries
* Final Destination - the most basic stage in the game, no issues no worries
* Delfino Plaza - see castle siege
* Luigi's Mansion - Fun stage, no hazards, breakable terrain to match final destination,
* Yoshi's Island - see battle field
* Lylat Cruise - see battle field
* Smashville - see battle field
* Castle Siege - solid stage, terrain switch is similar to Delfino Plaza
* Jungle Japes - I find absolutely nothing wrong with this stage
* Pokemon Stadium - see ssbm

Available for counter pick:
* Mario Circuit - hazards are pretty easy to avoid
* Halbred - see mario circuit
* Sky World - breakable terrain turns into fall through platforms, not a problem, but u could get easy k.o off a bounce if in lower part of the level
* Corneria - low damage stage hazards
* Onett - see corneria
* Rainbow Cruise - very slow multi directional scrolling stage, no stage hazards
* Bridge Of Eldin - see mario circuit
* Green Hill Zone - breakable terrain, easy to avoid stage hazards

flaws in bold. Guess ill go in order
-frigate orpheon is a small issue, gives warning, the flip isn't much of an issue anyway
-brinstar wasn't banned in melee, it was CP and is even more balanced now
-stadium2:that's why it's a COUNTER pick
-spear pillar stuff only applies to palkia (the controller issues and "flippy flop")
-green greens wasn't banned in melee, why should it be banned now (same rational was used in distant planet). if you are using those tablets as items, you're gonna be dissapointed in their effectiveness
-love the summit explanation (but i do agree it should be banned, for now)
-hannebow: COUNTER pick
-castle seige: destructable terrain makes it already not neutral, not to mention that the trasition lasts far longer than in delfino and can leave you off the stage when you go into the 3rd or 1st part of it
-jungle japes: fall off the left side and try to recover, then fall on the right and try to avoid the klaptrap if it doesn't kill you on the first hit
-if it weren't for the windmill making it so unless you can crawl it's almost impossible to be un-stuck i'd agree, but this inherent limit that stadium1 gves is why it should be CP

 

[Devildigimon]

Man I'm not going to be bickering with people online, on a ****ing forum about stages. I could give a **** less what u guys think (especially if it's to down talk me), just like I'm sure u ****s could easily feel the same way.

Like I said, if u ban items u ban stages that have items for characters to use. End of ****ing discussion. And like I said further...some SSBM tournaments banned stages that I put "See SSBM". Different strokes for different folks. It's one of those sayings. If u don't know what it means "google" it.

It's not like I'm on here saying u guys are wrong. Or that I believe my ruling for tournaments is "official" or anything. I was just sharing my idea and what I am doing with the tournaments I run.

I cater to my initial community (you know the people that are actually coming to my tournament). Not a group of whinny *******s from across the bloody country. Now I see why the 3d and 2d community down talk this ****ing coummunity. No one wants to lose or win to "chance" (a.k.a random **** happening). People with the traditional "fighting game edge", wants to win with skill and besting the opponent. I dunno what the **** u guys are talking about. Do u *******s play other fighting games? Like seriously? Cause they ban the stupid ****. To balance the game and give it an even playing field.

But anyways...I think I am done posting in here. I'd hate to have to start talking about people directly. And believe me, I wouldn't give a **** how u feel.

And to the prick that addressed about how one types online (you're not important enough to address directly). STFU! That is rediculous. It's the ****ing internet! People use shortcuts all the time and taken seriously or whatever. Get over it!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Man I'm not going to be bickering with people online, on a ****ing forum about stages. I could give a **** less what u guys think (especially if it's to down talk me), just like I'm sure u ****s could easily feel the same way.

Like I said, if u ban items u ban stages that have items for characters to use. End of ****ing discussion. And like I said further...some SSBM tournaments banned stages that I put "See SSBM". Different strokes for different folks. It's one of those sayings. If u don't know what it means "google" it.

It's not like I'm on here saying u guys are wrong. Or that I believe my ruling for tournaments is "official" or anything. I was just sharing my idea and what I am doing with the tournaments I run.

I cater to my initial community (you know the people that are actually coming to my tournament). Not a group of whinny *******s from across the bloody country. Now I see why the 3d and 2d community down talk this ****ing coummunity. No one wants to lose or win to "chance" (a.k.a random **** happening). People with the traditional "fighting game edge", wants to win with skill and besting the opponent. I dunno what the **** u guys are talking about. Do u *******s play other fighting games? Like seriously? Cause they ban the stupid ****. To balance the game and give it an even playing field.

But anyways...I think I am done posting in here. I'd hate to have to start talking about people directly. And believe me, I wouldn't give a **** how u feel.

And to the prick that addressed about how one types online (you're not important enough to address directly). STFU! That is rediculous. It's the ****ing internet! People use shortcuts all the time and taken seriously or whatever. Get over it!

--but you posted a list about your opinion and now your a whiney ***** about people criticizing it?
-you ban items because they are random (ie a capsule/crate/barrel blowing up vs a capsule/crate/barrel giving your opponent a pokeball with lati@s in it).
-you seem to be whinning more about random "chance" than everybody else by banning over half the stages
-half the stages you banned by "see sbbm" weren't banned in sbbm
-you are saying that we are wrong and ignoring to hear our view
-yes typing does matter, but i think your use of profanities speaks far more about maturity than anything else
-if you hate this community so much why do you have 200+ posts in it?

 

[Firestorm88]

I actually didn't realize the colours of the tiles were different depending on the Pokemon. I've only ever got Cresselia twice and both times the projectiles seemed really big, hard to avoid, and did massive knockback. Maybe I haven't played the stage long enough to see. I also didn't realize the flash.

I guess I should play on it more just like I said about Pictochat!

Man I'm not going to be bickering with people online, on a ****ing forum about stages. I could give a **** less what u guys think (especially if it's to down talk me), just like I'm sure u ****s could easily feel the same way.

Like I said, if u ban items u ban stages that have items for characters to use. End of ****ing discussion. And like I said further...some SSBM tournaments banned stages that I put "See SSBM". Different strokes for different folks. It's one of those sayings. If u don't know what it means "google" it.

It's not like I'm on here saying u guys are wrong. Or that I believe my ruling for tournaments is "official" or anything. I was just sharing my idea and what I am doing with the tournaments I run.

I cater to my initial community (you know the people that are actually coming to my tournament). Not a group of whinny *******s from across the bloody country. Now I see why the 3d and 2d community down talk this ****ing coummunity. No one wants to lose or win to "chance" (a.k.a random **** happening). People with the traditional "fighting game edge", wants to win with skill and besting the opponent. I dunno what the **** u guys are talking about. Do u *******s play other fighting games? Like seriously? Cause they ban the stupid ****. To balance the game and give it an even playing field.

But anyways...I think I am done posting in here. I'd hate to have to start talking about people directly. And believe me, I wouldn't give a **** how u feel.

And to the prick that addressed about how one types online (you're not important enough to address directly). STFU! That is rediculous. It's the ****ing internet! People use shortcuts all the time and taken seriously or whatever. Get over it!

Does someone want to translate that into English or is it not relevant to the discussion?

 

[LoOshKiN]

It's not like I'm on here saying u guys are wrong. I was just sharing my idea and what I am doing with the tournaments I run.

I cater to my initial community. Do u play other fighting games?

I have the same mindset as you in the sense that I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just sharing my ideas and thoughts too. I'm not even trying to sway your opinion or the way you run things Digi I'm just chipping in my two cents. I think it's great that you cater to your own community rather than follow under the general consensus, really, I do. No worries man, I'm not trying to start anything.

I find myself mostly in agreement with Bonds. Not entirely, I don't think but for the most part.

Why would other fighting games factor into Stage legality in this fighting game? Smash is the most unique fighting game I know so the comparision is difficult to make sense of. But To each his own is what I like to see about these things

 

[NintendoTogepi]

My opinion:

Neutrals:
Battlefield (Platforms are fine etc...)
Yoshi's Island (Nothing wrong with it)
Smashville (The most neutral stage in the game)

Counterpicks:
Final Destination (glitchy edges and a weird design that hurts recovery)
Lylat Cruise (tilting, odd design and distracting background, could maybe be argued for neutral)
Delfino Plaza (tons of design changing, walk offs, close to ban)
Luigi's Mansion (hard to kill people, stage changing and other such things)
Corneria - Melee (there are lasers but it's mostly okay)
Green Greens - Melee (wind and stuff, it barely makes the counterpick)

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (scrolling, 1-2 is awful)
Mario Circuit (go cart hazards, walk offs)
Rumble Falls (scrolling and those spike hazards and stuff)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, stage breaking, projectile spam and stalling)
Pirate Ship (tons of hazards including bombs, catapult, storm, low gravity, rock and everything)
Norfair (the lava hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (the flipping is awful and one side of the stage has no edge)
Halberd (walk offs at the beginning, opprunity for death at the beginning, terrible hazards later on)
Castle Siege (constantly changing, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (constantly changing, some of the forms have terrible hazards)
Spear Pillar (the worst hazards ever, BANNED BANNED BANNED)
Port Town Aero Dive (Those cars, weird design where you can't get KO'd from the bottom)
Skyworld (Easy to spike through clouds, no tether recoveries, trying to get back to stage and the platforms respawn...)
WarioWare, Inc. (Do I even need to say?)
Distant Planet (Those items, the rain, the bulborb, walk offs)
New Pork City (TOO BIG, ultimate chimera)
Summit (Low gravity, no edges on the bottom, low gravity, the fish)
75m (horrible design, tons of hazards, walk offs at parts)
Mario Bros. (horrible design, totally wrecks the basic gameplay, tons of hazards, walk offs)
Flat Zone 2 (so many freaking hazards, some of which kill at very low %, walk offs)
PictoChat (very unpredictable, many hazards)
Hanenbow (terrible design and bad for tether recoveries)
Shadow Moses Island (walk offs, those walls)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, bad design, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium - Melee (transformations that are terrible, bad edges)
Rainbow Cruise - Melee (constantly moving, full of hazards, very anti-smash bros gameplay)
Temple - Melee (TOO BIG)
Yoshi's Island - Melee (walk offs, lousy pit in the middle)
Onett - Melee (walk offs, car hazards)
Big Blue - Melee (Do I even need to say?)
Jungle Japes - Melee (water, klaptraps...)
Brinstar - Melee (Acid, destructible stage)

There, very fair and I think you'll all agree.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Don't give Devildigi any reason to get mad at us. I kind of don't care but at the same time it's good to have different views (productive criticism, keep things interesting, debate, etc.)

and yeah, I feel the '08, some '07 joiners are mostly scorned and looked down upon just like Freshman in High School. I go back and forth on it hate/love thing, mostly hate but whatever, they're here and they're not going away. At one point we were like them in one way or another. For better or worse.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I'm very glad you're not in charge of stage selection.

@NintendoTogepi

 

[LoOshKiN]

My opinion:

Neutrals:
Battlefield (Platforms are fine etc...)
Yoshi's Island (Nothing wrong with it)
Smashville (The most neutral stage in the game)

Counterpicks:
Final Destination (glitchy edges and a weird design that hurts recovery) They're not glitchy! lol FD is fine in my book
Lylat Cruise (tilting, odd design and distracting background, could maybe be argued for neutral) Seriously?! this should be neutral IMO. Tilting and background isn't that bad at all.
Delfino Plaza (tons of design changing, walk offs, close to ban)
Luigi's Mansion (hard to kill people, stage changing and other such things)
Corneria - Melee (there are lasers but it's mostly okay)
Green Greens - Melee (wind and stuff, it barely makes the counterpick) A good Ganon Counterpick

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (scrolling, 1-2 is awful)
Mario Circuit (go cart hazards, walk offs) Personally I like this stage.
Rumble Falls (scrolling and those spike hazards and stuff)
Bridge of Eldin (hazards, stage breaking, projectile spam and stalling) I guess the only problem I have with it is that it can be too big for some characters. But I think it's better than FD
Pirate Ship (tons of hazards including bombs, catapult, storm, low gravity, rock and everything)
Norfair (the lava hazards)
Frigate Orpheon (the flipping is awful and one side of the stage has no edge)
Halberd (walk offs at the beginning, opprunity for death at the beginning, terrible hazards later on)
Castle Siege (constantly changing, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (constantly changing, some of the forms have terrible hazards)
Spear Pillar (the worst hazards ever, BANNED BANNED BANNED)
Port Town Aero Dive (Those cars, weird design where you can't get KO'd from the bottom)
Skyworld (Easy to spike through clouds, no tether recoveries, trying to get back to stage and the platforms respawn...)
WarioWare, Inc. (Do I even need to say?) no you don't Most people agree this is a horrible tournament stage
Distant Planet (Those items, the rain, the bulborb, walk offs)
New Pork City (TOO BIG, ultimate chimera)
Summit (Low gravity, no edges on the bottom, low gravity, the fish)
75m (horrible design, tons of hazards, walk offs at parts)
Mario Bros. (horrible design, totally wrecks the basic gameplay, tons of hazards, walk offs)
Flat Zone 2 (so many freaking hazards, some of which kill at very low %, walk offs)
PictoChat (very unpredictable, many hazards)
Hanenbow (terrible design and bad for tether recoveries)
Shadow Moses Island (walk offs, those walls)
Green Hill Zone (hazards, bad design, walk offs)
Pokemon Stadium - Melee (transformations that are terrible, bad edges) Fine in Melee, then it should be ok for Brawl
Rainbow Cruise - Melee (constantly moving, full of hazards, very anti-smash bros gameplay) Generally, this was a counterpick in Melee. It should be for Brawl
Temple - Melee (TOO BIG)
Yoshi's Island - Melee (walk offs, lousy pit in the middle)
Onett - Melee (walk offs, car hazards)
Big Blue - Melee (Do I even need to say?)
Jungle Japes - Melee (water, klaptraps...)
Brinstar - Melee (Acid, destructible stage) Don't ban stages that should be counterpicks Stomping people through the acid with Ganondorf is so much fun.

There, very fair and I think you'll all agree. I obviously disagreed

There are way too many banned stages. I would would rather play on all the stages in a tournament than have only 9 stages to choose from. Geez

 

[Mike87]

@ NT

I never thought I'd see the day in which someone though Final Destination would be a counterpick, its pretty much the same as the Melee version

 

[tense]

Don't play innocent, winning because the big fish in the Ice Climbers level ate me, does not prove you're better than me.

Actually, it does. You're the one who forgot to stay away from the bottom. And if you were hit down there, then the other person is very much better than you.

 

[SkylerOcon]

You can very, very easily tell the pokemon in Spear Pillar apart. I just think it should be banned because the control switch gets confusing.

Such as, if you're use a recovery, and heading to the right and the stage is flipped, before you have time to react you would've sent yourself off the edge. Snake's missile launcher may accidentally miss somebody causing him to miss a kill, and this might also cause characters such as Link and Zelda whose Final Smashes require a clear shot to miss if they were going to turn right before they used it.

But, I guess the latter won't count anyway seeing as Smash Balls are supposedly banned from tournaments. Is that even true?

 

[tense]

No items = No items

End of discussion!!!

And yea...LOL, spelling does exist for a reason: So I can't type such an awesome reply like I just did son. I'm not the type to argue with people online...so I'm going to leave it at that!

Have a nice day!

Why is that end of discussion? You basically answered his point with "because I said so" twice in the same post. Grow up and talk like you're not a fifth grade bully.

 

[Rhubarbo]

This is the list I made after seeing a lot of debate on this thread. I'll make one list that auto-bans all (only) walk-offs and I'll make a sub-list that states the walk-offs I'd like in:

Neutral:
-Battle Field
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
-Pokemon Stadium Melee
TOTAL NEUTRAL: 6
TOTAL WITH SUB-LIST: 8

Counter Picks:
-Delfino Plaza: It would be neutral if there were no walk-offs (see sub-list for other position)
-Luigi's Mansion: As of now, it is debatable. I find that matches last longer, but they aren't too long. Safe for now
-Pirate Ship: You can see bombs from a mile away, no excuses
-Norfair: Yeah, it's debatable, but it gives warnings
-Frigate Orpheon: The flipping interferes with recovering characters
-Battle Ship Halberd: The hazards may be dodged, but are hazards none the less
-Pokemon Stadium 2: Death by conveyor belt is your fault for being knocked off (it's true), high gravity is equal for both players. Safe as of now
-Port Town Aero Dive: Cars can be seen from a far even though they cause more damage than Mute City
-Castle Siege: It would be neutral if there were no walk-offs (see sub-list for other position)
-The Summit: Laser locking might hinder it (?) and if we decide that high-gravity is bad then it's out for this one. The fish should not warrant a ban
-Picto Chat: I have seen no porblems with the stage. All things that are randomly drawn are drawn with a prior warning
-Jungle Japes: Now with swimming, there should be no complaints.
-Corneria: Laser locking hinderance (?)
-Rainbow Ride: I hate it, but it's perfectly legal.
-Green Greens: Don't charge smashes by the bomb-walls.
-Brinstar: Same as Melee
-Rumble Falls: See bottom for further explanation
TOTAL COUNTERPICK: 16
TOTAL WITH SUB-LIST: 20

Banned:
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-Mario Circuit: Walk-offs
-Bridge of Eldin: Walk-offs
-Spear Pillar: Rnadom elements that reverse control, slow down time, and spawn powerful beams
-Wario Ware
-Distant Planet: Walk-off
-New Pork City: Traits and attributes that Ridley has
-Sky World: Ridiculously low ceiling (too small un-like Luigi's Mansion), interferes with tehter recovererers
-75m: Weird Elements, Ridley-like,
-Mario Bros: Low ceilings, enemies that when thrown KO at low percentages
-Flat Zone 2: Walk-offs, small dimensions
-Hanenbow: Apparently dis-joints hit boxes (?)
-Shadow Moses Island: Blocked walk-offs
-Green Hill Zone: Walk-offs, colapsing ground, check-point marker interferes, Silver is in the background
-Temple: Meta Ridley like attributes
-Yoshi's Island (Melee): Walk-offs, blocks interfere
-Onnet: Walk-offs, major camping issues
-Big Blue
TOTAL BANNED STAGES: 18
TOTAL WITH SUB-LIST: 14

Sub-list
Description: This list re-arranges stages so that if walk-offs are not a factor for stages being banned matters, they are placed into new categories.

-Delfino Plaza: Now neutral (Personally, this should be a counter)
-Castle Siege: Now neutral (personally, this should be a counter)
-Mario Circuit: Now counter pick. I don't like it's ledges on the side because they create awkward fighting arrangements however (Personally, I'd want this banned no matter what)
-Bridge of Eldin: Now counterpick (always walk-off, King Bulblin damages, kind of campyish) (Personally, I'd want this legal no matter what)
-Distant Planet: Now counterpick (Personally, I'd want this legal no matter what)
-Green Hill Zone: Now counterpick, has potential to be banned due to collapsing land (persoanlly I'd want this banned no matter what)

Additional Thoughts:
-Rumble Falls: Rumble Falls is comparable to the part of Rainbow Ride after where the ship falls. I think that this stage should be given a chance in tournaments

-Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege: These two have portions of which are walk-offs. As of now, I see that possibly posing a problem for thier neutrality due to some characters being able to b-throw camping especially against characters that have now projectiles to respond.

-Walk off stages: These stages promote camping a lot. They also ruin the purpose of recovery. In my opinon, most of them should be banned with few exceptions.

-Norfair: This stage poses a lot of hazards, but it is rather equal for both players. This stage will certainly be banned however in doubles due to the shelter wars.

-Distant Planet: This stage has non-game breaking hazards, and only a singe walk-off. Therefore, I would prefer it legal.

-Pokemon Stadium 2: Where do you draw the line between game breaking hazards, and just minor hazards? I think that all hazards on this stage provide fair elements, and can be used to one's advantage. The Diddy banana thing should be more than easy to avoid.

-Yoshi's Island (Melee): I'd un-ban this, but I hate those blocks that pretty much stop the flow of battle between people on opposite sides of the screen.

-Onnet: The fact that there are two building seperating the two walk-offs, camping problems can be caused.

 

[Firestorm88]

You can very, very easily tell the pokemon in Spear Pillar apart. I just think it should be banned because the control switch gets confusing.

Such as, if you're use a recovery, and heading to the right and the stage is flipped, before you have time to react you would've sent yourself off the edge. Snake's missile launcher may accidentally miss somebody causing him to miss a kill, and this might also cause characters such as Link and Zelda whose Final Smashes require a clear shot to miss if they were going to turn right before they used it.

But, I guess the latter won't count anyway seeing as Smash Balls are supposedly banned from tournaments. Is that even true?

I don't see Smash Balls being allowed at all. If they are, then I would expect other items to be on as well. Smash Ball is an item. It should not be thought of as a special item. I actually think it's one of the more broken items as for most characters, the Smash Ball is a free KO.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, it does. You're the one who forgot to stay away from the bottom. And if you were hit down there, then the other person is very much better than you.

So because they knocked me down and the fish decided right then to pop up and eat me makes them better skilled?
Riiiight. Funny thing is that if that is ocnsidered allowable we might as well play on jungle waterfall so that if the guy knocks you up into a spike that OHKO'syou at 23% it means you're less skilled.

Predictability, KO possiblity, those are al factors. Simply put if you have something that s gonna OHKO you at low percentage without being extremely easily avoided it should be banned.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

I think it's interesting to note that M3D posted the Official WiFi Wars and SmashBoards Online Launch Tournament's stage list:

http://www.wifiwars.com/?q=node/290

Legal Stages
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Distant Planet
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Brinstar
Corneria
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Pictochat
Electroplankton
Shadow Moses Island
Castle Seige
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Onett

Banned Stages
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Donkey Kong 75m
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Wario Ware
The Summit
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Flat Zone 2
Temple
Big Blue
Jungle Japes

My predictions so far were spot on except for Jungle Japes and Skyworld switching positions =P And my Skyworld prediction was pretty biased I guess as I hate Skyworld x.x Feels too much like a combination of Hyrule Temple's lower area and Pokemon Stadium 2's conveyer stage (person in the middle controls the entire stage).

My two cents:
-Shadow Moses Island needs to be banned. The pillars screw a lot of thing in the earlier parts of the match.
-Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, and Skyworld should also be banned since it hinders movement of not being able to go through things, especially for Rainbow Cruise since it's a moving stage and Skyworld because of being able to break things apart.
-Stadium 2 because of air field.
-Pictochat = ban because of how the field changes to often and the effects.\
-Jungle Japes (Melee) was legal in Melee
-Norfair should not necessarily be legal, but rather counterpickable only like Brinstar.
-Mario Circuit should be counterpickable because of cars
-Distant Planet, Pirate Ship, and Electroplankton are all debateable.

 

[Firestorm88]

My two cents:
-Shadow Moses Island needs to be banned. The pillars screw a lot of thing in the earlier parts of the match.
-Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, and Skyworld should also be banned since it hinders movement of not being able to go through things, especially for Rainbow Cruise since it's a moving stage and Skyworld because of being able to break things apart.
-Stadium 2 because of air field.
-Pictochat = ban because of how the field changes to often and the effects.\
-Jungle Japes (Melee) was legal in Melee
-Norfair should not necessarily be legal, but rather counterpickable only like Brinstar.
-Mario Circuit should be counterpickable because of cars
-Distant Planet, Pirate Ship, and Electroplankton are all debateable.

Shadow Moses' biggest reason that it would get banned is due to DeDeDe's wall chain grab I think. Other than that, I don't see too many issues with a wall being there.

I don't think there's much reason for banning Rainbow Road and Stadium 1 because you can't go through platforms. There's only certain points of both stages that can't be moved through. Approaching is not completely neutered. Sorta agree with Skyworld but we'll have to wait and see on that.

Air field is no reason for a ban.

Pictochat is completely playable. The effects are tame and changing often is not a negative.

Jungle Japes has changed since Melee. You can now swim and swimming's start-up animation will kill you. Just now I played it and even though I only fell on the right side, I was dragged to the left and it forced me to hit a Klap Trap on the way =( I don't know if it should be banned yet, but not being banned in Melee's not a good reason for it. I think more testing should be done personally.

There are no neutrals/counterpicks because it's an online tournament and I don't think they want to deal with the counter-pick process online. It's quite hard to pull off.

I am not associated with WiFiWars or SmashBoards in any way btw. Just pointing out some possible reasons.

 

[SkylerOcon]

This kind of off-topic, but why ban because of walk-off stages? If you're actually stupid enough to walk off the stage then why should we cater to you? It's like banning Pokemon Stadium 2 because 'ZOMG AIR PLACE GIVES UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO STUPID AERIAL BASED CHARACTERS!!11".

Seriously, guys. You're saying stages should be banned for the stupidest reasons.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

"Walking Off" isn't the reason for "Walk Off" stages, they're only called that because it's their main characteristic.

Forcing a character off by using a tactic like Dedede's chaingrabbing or camping near that spot with a powerful throw (DK especially) can get it banned.

However, a tactical ban is something I feel should actually go through testing.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

This kind of off-topic, but why ban because of walk-off stages? If you're actually stupid enough to walk off the stage then why should we cater to you? It's like banning Pokemon Stadium 2 because 'ZOMG AIR PLACE GIVES UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO STUPID AERIAL BASED CHARACTERS!!11".

Seriously, guys. You're saying stages should be banned for the stupidest reasons.

walkoff doesn't mean people walk off it, i would explain it if dazwa didn't do such a good job of explaining it

"Walking Off" isn't the reason for "Walk Off" stages, they're only called that because it's their main characteristic.

Forcing a character off by using a tactic like Dedede's chaingrabbing or camping near that spot with a powerful throw (DK especially) can get it banned.

However, a tactical ban is something I feel should actually go through testing.

the only thing i can disagree with you dazwa on is that i feel that banning a stage due to a possible tactic is what you do first, and you test to prove that it doesn't work

 

[NintendoTogepi]

@ NT

I never thought I'd see the day in which someone though Final Destination would be a counterpick, its pretty much the same as the Melee version

The edges are terrible and stuff. You can get trapped under the stage.

Plus, it favors projectile attacks and stuff. It's a good counterpick if you're playing as someone who's got a great projectile game.

There are way too many banned stages. I would would rather play on all the stages in a tournament than have only 9 stages to choose from. Geez

It's not too many banned. It's fine and fair.

I'm very glad you're not in charge of stage selection.

@NintendoTogepi

What's wrong with it?

 

[Firestorm88]

NintendoTogepi did you read this topic at all?

 

[Mic_128]

Excuse me, I'm only talking about tournament play here. I play all those stages you mentioned with my friends or with the computer for fun.

So do I. Mute City and Brinstar were both Counterpicks for Melee Tournaments, along with a few others (Green greens)

Don't play innocent, winning because the big fish in the Ice Climbers level ate me, does not prove you're better than me.

I didn't say it did. Being eaten by the fish counts (to me at least) as one of the inexcapable hazards. nce you're eaten, there's no excape, and there's no warning to him appearing. One second you're in the water, the next you're a stock down. It's one on my personal ban list.

Either you're not paying close attention because you're too focused on the "HA! Got him!" Or you did not see me mentioning money. And what do you GENERALLY assume when the topic of money is brought up in Smash Bros? Tournaments. And if it's my fault I didn't make it clear enough that I was only referring tournaments when it came to clean stages, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But you knew that, didn't you? Perhaps I should have initially showed my entire perspective on stages, not just the latter.

Again, stages with "outside influences" were on counterpicks in big melee tournaments that had cash on the line. I know in a big aussie tournament (@M) I counterpicked with Green greens and did well. Yes, I could have been screwed over by the boxes blocking my recovery, or blowing me up, or by getting pelted with an apple. I didn't care. I had practised a lot on that stage to get used to it and to use it to my advantage.

And to a degree, yes you can have competitive matches on stages like Brinstar and that Super Mario Sunshine map, as well as a couple of others. Don't tell me there aren't exceptions though.

I haven't said there weren't exceptions. There are, but they're the ones that are deadly and dangerous with no warining at all and can 1hko at low percents. There's stage hazards and stage hazards.'

He sure was talking about friendlies though. Let me find it....

Nothing I have said in this thread, unless specified with me saying "When I do friendlies"

Everything I've said so far is about tournament play.

Yes, you can talk all you want about including hazard-like stages, but I bet you wouldn't want to lose the price money for the sake of including them, now would you? Is it really soooooooooooo hard to play on FD and Battlefield? Really..is it? And it's only a tourny. When you get to your house, and invite your friends, you can decide upon all you want.

Again, I used Green greens in a big tourney. And I've been practising on Norfair and Pictochat too. Neither have 1hko hazards, and both are ffair with advance warning (picto-chat does have some warning, even if it's just the background getting drawn, but again, none are a 1hko or that damaging.)


I'll go though and look at the other 3 pages of posts (3 new pages overnight? Wow) but I've got to get ready to go out to a family easter thing.

 

[Mic_128]

And I've had time to go through the rest.

Basically my mentallity is that we SHOULD test the stages, but not to prove that the stage should be banned, but because it should be proven that it doesn't deserve ban.

There's 2 problems with that.

1. If it's banned, no one's going to play it to test ot, and those that do will be called 'casuals' and ignored. It's HUGELY harder to get a stage unbanned then banned.

2. That's not how anything works ever for the reason it's bad. It's like kicking someone out of a club they didn't get into for the purpose of seeing if he should be in. Chucking someone in jail, calling them guilty and then going through a trial. It doesn't work.

The IC stage can be counterpick, but im not found of the gravity change on the stage. Of all the ones i put on my list, this one was the most subjective (honestly, i haven't played it enough to objectively decide)

The gravity change isn't the real problem, it's the instand "your dead" of the fish eating you.

Bridge of Eldin: this stage is one of the worst stages for competitive play imo. arguing that projectiles give an advantage is fine, but the problem is that you can ONLY use projectiles, try to get close and boom! dead or it'll just cause for a stall. If half of a stage is about stalls....does it really deserve tourney play? not in my mind at least

This argument could also be used to ban FD.

No items = No items

End of discussion!!!

Tell that to Green Greens.

 

[Eaode]

To whoever sayed FD should be CP because of edges: Battlefield was Neutral in Melee.

Distant Planet should NOT be banned at all. The walk off edge isn't really campable b/c the rain comes about every 1.5-2 minutes. The Grub is so easy to avoid that it's laughable. If you get caught in there you suck. If someone is spiking you there (which isn't really practical btw), just think of it as if the KO boundary was raised slightly. would it desrve a ban because of different dimensions? Finally, the projectile argument is extremely laughable. First off, Green Greens was CP in melee, and the apples were more powerful than the pellets, PLUS it had bombs and very small boundaries. DP only has very weak projectiles that are not even remotely close to game-breaking. I will argue to no end that Disant Planet deserves Counterpick


Also, about the Fish in Summit, have any of you bothered to find out how it works? It's not like "Ohh I spike you down just as the fish comes up and gives me a free kill". The fish ONLY comes up about 3-5 seconds after someone has been standing there. Plus it's only during a certain part of the stage and in one area of it.

Shorter Version: FD=Neutral, Distant Planet=Counterpick, Summit=Counterpick


EDIT: Also, I'll truly LOL of you get KO'd by the Rain on DP.

 

[Mic_128]

Also, about the Fish in Summit, have any of you bothered to find out how it works? It's not like "Ohh I spike you down just as the fish comes up and gives me a free kill". The fish ONLY comes up about 3-5 seconds after someone has been standing there.

Not always true. I've been killed less than half a second after standing in the water.

 

[Riot_ Fires]

Okay it seems off-topic..

But is there a possibility of having some stages as counterpicks (ie, Shadow Moses, Mario Circuit) that are available to certain characters..?

I understand this would complicate things a little more rather then just having a set Neutral, Counterpick, Ban list, but this would also open up the possibility of more counterpick stages being available to those players who want a little more cariety and are allowed to use the stage because it would not be an unfair advantage to either party..

Having a counterpick stage character availability would seem alot fairer in the sense that everyone would have more variety in their counterpick choices with obvious exceptions to characters who the stage would be more beneficial to (ie, DDD CGs)..

I've probably double stated here which i blame on dodgy Mcer's and lack of sleep but this is something that could be taken into concideration given Brawls new playstyles and character movesets..

 

[Vet]

Okay it seems off-topic..

But is there a possibility of having some stages as counterpicks (ie, Shadow Moses, Mario Circuit) that are available to certain characters..?

I understand this would complicate things a little more rather then just having a set Neutral, Counterpick, Ban list, but this would also open up the possibility of more counterpick stages being available to those players who want a little more cariety and are allowed to use the stage because it would not be an unfair advantage to either party..

Having a counterpick stage character availability would seem alot fairer in the sense that everyone would have more variety in their counterpick choices with obvious exceptions to characters who the stage would be more beneficial to (ie, DDD CGs)..

I've probably double stated here which i blame on dodgy Mcer's and lack of sleep but this is something that could be taken into concideration given Brawls new playstyles and character movesets..

Well take this into consideration.
Example: You are a Lucario player who lost your first round to a Metaknight. You decide to counterpick Corneria so you can kill off the top easier. The Metaknight then decides to switch to DDD. But your stage of Corneria doesnt allow him to be DDD. So you basically just told a player that he cannot play the character he wants to play because of the stage you chose. Thats not right.

Also, the melee tournies usually had a rule to the effect of "everything is legal if both players agree." Which basically translates to, if you and I both want to play New Pork City, we can.

 

[Mic_128]

I know that RAMBO, in Melbourne is doing a tourney with stages like Moses on Counterpick, but banned from being chosen by Dedede. (IE Dedede can't choose to play it, but someone can use it as their counterpick, even if it's against Dedede (but no complaints about 'chaingrabbing' if they do against him)

 

[Vet]

I know that RAMBO, in Melbourne is doing a tourney with stages like Moses on Counterpick, but banned from being chosen by Dedede. (IE Dedede can't choose to play it, but someone can use it as their counterpick, even if it's against Dedede (but no complaints about 'chaingrabbing' if they do against him)

That seems really awkward, keep us posted on the results of that.

I am a DDD player, and I would honestly be pissed if a Fox player (example) could pick Shadow Moses against me, and I couldn't pick it against a say Lucario.

What happens if I am playing say Fox, and someone picks Moses against me, and so I switch to DDD. Is that ok?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

What happens if I am playing say Fox, and someone picks Moses against me, and so I switch to DDD. Is that ok?

I'd imagine it would be part of the risk of choosing a stage where YOU'RE barred from using a character by choosing that stage, and not your opponent.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

NintendoTogepi did you read this topic at all?

I read the entire topic. I see nothing wrong with my list.

 

[Icelement]

Norfair: There's really no warning when the lava comes, which gives slight, random advantages to players that just happen to be on the right part of the stage. I've also noticed that the capsule doesn't allows allow anybody inside.

I couldn't figure it out for a while, but attack the door. It's rather Metroid-esque too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Personally I say norfair should be banned. the lava doesn't appear with warning and it takes up half the stinking stage. it also kills the whole point of fighting when people have to rush for the safety capsule (i hear you can airdodge but meh) it just seems a bit too awkward.


bridge of Eldin should stay as a counter pick, the only thing I see that may be a problem is when the bridge gets blown up but that shouldn't be a big deal.

I dislike Final destination in brawl, I seem to get stuck under the ceiling too often.
Granted I know peolpe say FD from melee but the occurance of getting trapped didn't happen often if at all.

 

[Eaode]

I dislike Final destination in brawl, I seem to get stuck under the ceiling too often.
Granted I know peolpe say FD from melee but the occurance of getting trapped didn't happen often if at all.

You mean Battlefield from melee, not FD

In melee it was even worse because most character couldn't sweetspot backwards.

On a side note (pretty much off topic): Corneria is one of the campiest stages evar. I was playign a macth on that stage vs Snake, as Pikachu, and all I had to do was thunderjolt spam under the fin, or jump and thunderjotl if he was on the other side of the stage. If he tried to go high above to fin (To avoid the jolts), he got Thunder'd.

Seriously, Corneria is my new Pika Counterpick.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Eh that was a given but it isn't as if they get stuck trying to get back onto the ledge.

 

[Eaode]

Eh that was a given but it isn't as if they get stuck trying to get back onto the ledge.

When else would they get stuck >_<

It seems to happen just as much in Brawl as it did in melee with Battlefield, but I think it'll decrease as time moves on and people fine tune their understanding of their character's recovery.


On another side note ( a little more on topic) Bridge of Eldin is also Extremely campy if there are projectile-wielding characters on it. I was playing a Link vs Toon Link match on that stage that laster almost 11 minutes >_<;