Official Stage Legality Discussion

[geemann2236]

Pokemon Stadium 2 better be out... Those conveyor belts are insane, Diddy Bananas kill in one hit on those belts. The wind stadium has characters who can jump infinately on it, so that makes for minute long stalls. And of course, theres a wall. This track is out.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Still waiting for someone to explain this one away. Any stage capable of this shouldn't be in tournaments

Wow, Frigate Orpheon might just get banned! I think it will probably end up as counter pick though, it still does give a warning...

So, is Delfino neutral???

 

[Rokk141]

What's been on my mind lately is if Frigate Orpheon should be neutral or counterpick. It does give quite the distinct warning before flipping, but if you are in the middle of recovering/intercepting e.c.t. you are pretty much screwed over.

Also, should Distant Planet be banned because of the walk-off? Other than that aspect of the stage, I find it perfectly legal. There is a warning prior to the rain fall, and you should simply know how long to stay on the Bulborb.

Also, should Pokemon Stadium 2 be a counterpick? I know it sounds odd due to it's zany tendencies, but it does provide a fair playing field for all fighters. The only thing that's a hinderance to it is the air transformation.

Also, should Delfino Plaza be neutral?

Those four have all been on my mind lately and I'm sure are open for discussion.

I really don't know what to think about Frigate Orpheon. I've seen videos of it doing really weird things to people, so I think more information would have to be gathered before it's officially banned.

I don't see why Distant Planet should be banned. It's easy to stay off the walk-off part of the stage if you're afraid of a chain throw KO, and the Bulborb isn't really a threat. He's very easy to avoid completely.

Delfino Plaza seems pretty neutral to me.

 

[Mic_128]

If you didn't notice, the leaves of Hanenbrow pick up the hit box of attacks, which can be a bit of a problem for competitive play. Since attacks don't go through the platforms much, it can make actually hitting people take forever, and any projectile game can be defended against simply by finding a leaf and hitting it to a certain angle.

Uh, that's called stratagy. Just because Falco can't laser spam because you can change the leaves to block it make it bad? I would have thought that'd be a plus?

OTRU: I'd rather not, as atm all stages are still in discussion in the Back Room, though I can tell you without a doubt that Hyrule, Pork and Warioware are 100% banned, and FD, Battlefield and Smashville are all 100% neutral. The rest of the discussion is what should be neutral or counterpick, and what should be counterpick or banned.

 

[Eten]

Look, Frigate Orpheon gives you a warning and it's rotation has a consistent effect every time. This has been answered, Crom. Or is it just convenient to ignore 5+ posts on the subject because it doesn't fit with your feelings because you die because of the hazard?

It won't be neutral because of the rotation and because of the lack of a clingable ledge on the right side, I'm sure of it. But banned because of that? No.

 

[supercake]

i agree orpheon gives you a warning and its probably timed too. i cant believe half the stages could be banned because people in a boiler room somewhere cant handle tha heat.

I also heard a rumor pokemon stadium 2 was close to being banned because in the first week some pro mentally broke down because he couldnt handle diddys bananas. that is ridiculous and the smash community cannot help it if this game makes some people go ******** tough luck oh and diddy for top tier!

 

[shadydentist]

The most compelling reason for Pokemon Stadium 2 to be banned is that god**** windmill stage. For an already floating game, turning gravity down to nearly zero makes doing anything in the air a gigantic annoyance.

 

[Mic_128]

An annoyance, maybe, but it's still not something worth banning. Would be a good counterpick for a person who's got a good arial game.

 

[Doomgaze]

An annoyance, maybe, but it's still not something worth banning. Would be a good counterpick for a person who's got a good arial game.

Or for anyone with good stall moves.

 

[OTRU...]

aka fox shine stall ftw

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Still waiting for someone to explain this one away. Any stage capable of this shouldn't be in tournaments

I agree! I really think it should be banned. It's done it to me several times.

 

[ZenJestr]

heres my opinion...

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick:
Skyworld
Corneria
Rainbow Ride
Castle Siege
Shadow Moses Island
The Summit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Distant Planet
Bridge of Eldin
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Brinstar
Luigi's Mansion
Hanenbow
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Pirate Ship

Banned:
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
PictoChat
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
WarioWare, Inc.
Flat Zone 2
75m
Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
Onett
Temple
Big Blue
Jungle Japes

 

[Firestorm88]

I think it's interesting to note that M3D posted the Official WiFi Wars and SmashBoards Online Launch Tournament's stage list:

http://www.wifiwars.com/?q=node/290

Legal Stages
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Distant Planet
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Brinstar
Corneria
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Pictochat
Electroplankton
Shadow Moses Island
Castle Seige
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Onett

Banned Stages
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Donkey Kong 75m
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Wario Ware
The Summit
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Flat Zone 2
Temple
Big Blue
Jungle Japes

My predictions so far were spot on except for Jungle Japes and Skyworld switching positions =P And my Skyworld prediction was pretty biased I guess as I hate Skyworld x.x Feels too much like a combination of Hyrule Temple's lower area and Pokemon Stadium 2's conveyer stage (person in the middle controls the entire stage).

 

[Eten]

I can understand that list, except for Jungle Japes. Port Town: Aero Dive, however, still has guaranteed safe zones at every stop, and good warning on many of them. The reasoning must have been that even for an avoidable and non-random hazard, the cars just hit too hard, I think.

 

[theONEjanitor]

i plan to run tournaments in my area, and if my first one occurs before the broomer decide on something, i was thinking of using the following
in sum: i banned all stages with walk off edges, because of course Dedede gets free kills on those stages, and i dont think people should have to learn a character that he can't chaingrab if they don't want to. buttt i did leave Green Hill Zone open, because i don't think Dedede can chaingrab up the curve and then off the stage. let me know if he can in fact. and sure he can in the the little corners, but thats just a matter of avoiding those spots, much likee avoiding walls in melee so you don't get waveshined to death. also i left shadow moses on becuase you have to go through the trouble of breaking the walls first. I banned all stages that in my experience kiled, hurt, or disadvantaged the player more or as much as the opponent, and I banned all stages which were so ******** that you couldn't have a decent competitive fight on there like pokemon stadium 2, temple, rumble falls


Random select stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 1.

Stages banned for Singles & Doubles: Mushroomy Kingdom [Overworld/Underworld], 75m, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, Wario Ware, Distant Planet, New Pork City, Temple, Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Onett, Spear Pillar, Mario Bros., Mario Circuit, Flat Zone 2, The Summit, Big Blue, Pokemon Stadium 2, Green Greens.

Stages available for Counter Pick:
Battleship Halberd, Frigate Orpheon, Norfair, Pictochat, Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone, Skyworld, Luigi's Mansion, Pirate Ship, Port Town Aero Drive, Hanenbow, Brinstar, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Jungle Japes


im iffy about port town aero drive, because alot of deaths come from the cars in my experience, they're a lot stronger than the ones on mute city, and i know you can dodge them if you're ready like 3 seconds in advance, but no one wants to have to be thinking abuot dodging cars int he middle of a fight, especially when those cars can easily take your stocks.

 

[2.72]

My predictions so far were spot on except for Jungle Japes and Skyworld switching positions =P And my Skyworld prediction was pretty biased I guess as I hate Skyworld x.x Feels too much like a combination of Hyrule Temple's lower area and Pokemon Stadium 2's conveyer stage (person in the middle controls the entire stage).

Ironically, I agree with that list except for Jungle Japes and Skyworld. I'm OK with allowing Skyworld until it turns into a problem, but Jungle Japes? It's only gotten more fair since SSBM because the water is easier to deal with, and it was counterpick then. I want to hear their reasoning, in case I overlooked something.

 

[Skywalker]

Banned Stages
Mushroomy Kingdom - R.I.P. =D
Rumble Falls - See mushroomy kingdom
Donkey Kong 75m - I never had too many complaints about this one. at least counterpick in team games would be nice
Spear Pillar - great stage, too random
Port Town Aero Dive - somewhat distracting, but should counterpickable
Wario Ware - terrible stage, agreed
The Summit - a little too "disruptive" in some parts
Mario Bros. - too dependent on whoever gets the shells, seriously hinders my toon link =/
New Pork City - agreed
Flat Zone 2 - see new pork city
Temple - i hate camping, anyway
Big Blue - self explanatory
Jungle Japes - dunno, the swimming effect should at least make this counterpickable

my opinions.

 

[theONEjanitor]

frigate orpheon should in no way be banned.

pokemon stadium 2 is a ******** stage that makes the game not competitive for the moments that its transformed.
should be banned imo. any stage where you have to battle the retardedness of the level more than your opponent should be banned. i see no difference between ps2 and stages like icyclemountain and rumble falls...same concept.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

edit:
Spear pillar should be iffy on ban lists.
It's not so bad that it should be banned, or at least not frequently..

 

[Mic_128]

frigate orpheon should in no way be banned.

pokemon stadium 2 is a ******** stage that makes the game not competitive for the moments that its transformed.
should be banned imo. any stage where you have to battle the retardedness of the level more than your opponent should be banned. i see no difference between ps2 and stages like icyclemountain and rumble falls...same concept.

Feel like saying exactly why it 'makes the game not competative'?

 

[theONEjanitor]

Feel like saying exactly why it 'makes the game not competative'?

because you spend more time worrying about not being screwed by the stage than actual fighting. much like rumble falls and melee's icycle mountain. low gravity and conveyor belts are party game mechanics, not competitive aspects.
sure other stages have things, but the key is whether or not they are avoided. When the entire mechanics of the stage change, thats not avoidable. it changes the game.

Beyond all that, We don't want one matchup in the room to be regular melee, and another matchup on the tv next to them to be low gravity melee. that's not balanced, thats not representative of a competitive game. in that case we might as well turn the slow motion items on and other things like that.

 

[Deleted member]

I know I'm going to be flamed outlandishly for the following statement, but here goes:

I truly do not think Final Destination should be a neutral map. The edges simply aren't fair for a lot of characters, and it's also freaking huge - making matches take forever.

I know that it's a ridiculous notion. I'm sorry I posted. I just think it should be a counter-pick stage. The sides are just too unforgiving.

 

[Seifersythe]

Hey Mic, I was curious. Is the Smash Back Room considering doing more then just posting a list? It would certainly help the acceptance of the official list if you presented a write up on why or why not a stage is allowed on the more controversial choices.

 

[Firestorm88]

Low gravity is not a "party" mechanic. I don't see how that makes sense at all. There's some different timing involved, but I don't think adapting to the lower gravity takes away from the competitive aspect at all. You fall slower. Ok. So?

The conveyer belts are the only problem I have with the stage after playing with it for a while. The middle of the stage becomes a bit of a controlling point, although I guess the person who doesn't get the middle can just try to stall it out by hanging off the edge.

Jungle Japes I think got worse with the new mechanic, not better. Due to the delay after hitting the water, hitting it on the left side is an instant death (no way to recover). Hitting it on the right side means you will likely recover on the right platform though.

Also, two things were pointed out in another discussion about stages in the BC regional thread. Firstly, Corneria's fin allows certain characters (METAKNIGHT) to up+b and gain invincibility, then come down with a d-air or b-air or something and up+b again for an instant attack + auto invincibility. We need to see if there's a counter to this. Norfair can allow characters to spam aerials while going from edge to edge to abuse invincibility. I haven't seen that first hand though.

And yeah, I guess we're going to also have to see what DeDeDe's chaingrab does to walls with stages like Shadow Moses =/ It's even easier to get going than Fox's drillshine...

Edit: Woah two posts by the time I did this.

I don't believe FD should be not neutral because of the edges. I mean, we also had Battlefield in Melee right? The stage itself is neutral, we just have to get used to the new edges I guess.

I do like the idea of the list having its reasons written by someone who can tell us the reasons it's banned in an easy to read format.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, I believe Skyworld and Luigi's Mansion should not be counter-picks.

Skyworld has retardedly low ceilings that allow for back-throw spikes, and breakable terrain that can be teched on all day.. it's very Hyrule-esque.

Luigi's Mansion for the same reason. You survive to insane percentages in this stage.

 

[Firestorm88]

That's why I want Skyworld banned too but I can understand that it should be tested more. I just had a Luigi's Mansion match that was exactly as you described, but I think that stage should definitely be tested extensively first.

 

[-Mars-]

I just finished a 5 stock game with one of my friends on luigi mansion, took us seventeen minutes!

 

[6footninja]

I think any stage that has any outside variable that could keyword:RANDOMLY effect the gameplay and outcome shouldn't be used. (though a lot of people disagree)

So, I think levels such as Battlefield, Delfino Plaza, Smashvillle are good picks. There aren't harmful variables to be concerned with

 

[Mattnumbers]

You guys are forgetting that Luigi's mansion can be destroyed, turning it into a stage similar to FD, but with easier to grab edges and two platforms on each side. I don't think it should be neutral, but it definitely shouldn't be banned.

Skyworld I agree with though, it should probably be banned, MAYBE counterpickable. And sadly I think that Pirate Ship should be banned, even though it is a very fun level. the bombs shot from the background have high knock back, and the catapult can easily kill you at higher percents. Maybe it should be counterpickable, and I just may suck at dodging those hazards.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lower gravity doesn't make the game anymore/less competitive,

 

[JakeTL]

My take on stages... 6 Basic Stages should be Neutral.
Anything not too rediculously damaging or that you can see coming a decent bit should be fine, (Great Sea is easy to dodge cannon, Catapult is as well, Halberd is ungodly easy to dodge laser..) These are counterpick.
then Banned: Hyrule and other stupidly big maps, and the mario kart map just because there are ALWAYS cars and things happening..

 

[Crom]

Everyone is too concerned with keeping all these lame maps legal. If you can't win on a neutral map you don't deserve to win.

 

[M.K]

Mario Circuit is Counterpick, mainly for the reason that you can basically SEE the cars coming from both directions, either by sight or large flashing arrow. Probably the walk-off edges are what's killing it right? I'm not too sure those are a big problem now, with basically only one or two characters chain-throwing effectively.

 

[Delta Z]

I see Mario Circuit also being a counterpick, because the karts aren't that strong and again, you know they're coming. You see them in the background when they cover the bottom, and an alarm goes off when they cover the top half.

Whoa...we said the same thing...

 

[Sir_Malechai]

I just finished a 5 stock game with one of my friends on luigi mansion, took us seventeen minutes!

Same here, but ours took 22 minutes.. (He was Samus and I was Pikachu) The roof hitting kinda made it hard to pull off a kill haha

 

[Rikka]

Everyone is too concerned with keeping all these lame maps legal. If you can't win on a neutral map you don't deserve to win.

A lot of those "lame" stages were legal in Melee. Realize that you have stupidly high standards that won't be followed.

 

[Micahc]

Am I the only one that thinks that Pirate Ship should be banned? The cannon gives over 30+ damage per hit, and the catapult can grab ungodly early percent KOs. I love the level, but some of the hazards are too extreme IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

My thoughts on stage bans:

~Mushroomy Kingdom--First, it's a moving stage. Next, it's horizontal. You'd have to knock someone off the sides or top to score a KO, unless you're lucky and manage to knock an opponent down one of the gaps on the bottom.

~Rumble Falls: It's essentially Icicle Mountain. The only major design-related differences are that it's a got spikes that could KO if you touch it. Also, unlike IM, it also moves slightly horizontally. New Icicle Mounatin=Auto-Ban

~Pokemon Stadium 2: If a character has poor recovery, then they're doomed on the Electric stage, even if they grab the ledge. Especially if they grab the ledge. The conveyor belts are always pushing the players off the stage if the climbe up. In other news, KO's are exceptionally easy on Flying stage.

~Spear Pillar: Giants beams coming out of nowhere? Reversed controls? Stage flipped upside down? Sounds like a ban to me.

~WarioWare: Some of the prizes for clearing the mindmicrogames include growth and invincibility. Items are banned for a reason, aren't they?

~New Pork City: It's a new Temple. Don't forget the Ultimate Chimera.

~Mario Bros.: The only way to KO opponents are throwing and the Shellcreepers and Sidecrawlers.

~75m: The closest a place on the stage gets to be Brawl-okay is the upper right platform. And KO's are too easy here. Otherwise, it's a new Temple.

~Flat Zone 2: As if Flat Zone Melee had too few hazards.

~Shadow Moses Island: As Buzz and Sugarpoultry learned, D3 has an infinite chain grab he can use on this stage.

 

[Miller]

Mario Circuit is Counterpick, mainly for the reason that you can basically SEE the cars coming from both directions, either by sight or large flashing arrow. Probably the walk-off edges are what's killing it right? I'm not too sure those are a big problem now, with basically only one or two characters chain-throwing effectively.

IC Chain grab from %0 will kill any character who can be effectively down chain throwed.

 

[The_NZA]

Seriously, I may be sounding like a broken record, but this arguing is futile and is destroying the very purpose of the variety of stages Brawl has to offer. We shouldn't be banning stages unless there is a CLEAR reason to do so. Wario Ware, lets ban it because some people are given stars. Lets ban New Pork City because it is huge. Lets Ban skyworld because of the meteor smash abuse and tether recovery folks getting screwed. But when we start arguing about inane factors that could or could not break this game like DDD's chain throw, then I think we are crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. We should test it out in tournies before we go on banning them. Look, some suggested banning Norfair, but after playing it extensively, the very fact is you can shield the lava wave or air dodge and not be penalized. Banning Bridge of Eldin doesn't make sense either since the "unpredictable" boars that charge across are easily dodged not to mention when they actually hit you, there is barely any knock back. Lets just chill for a bit and play some tournies with everything allowed except for the OBVIOUS outliers. Neutrals are easy enough to decide on. But come on fellas. You guys are just going too far.