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Official Stage Legality Discussion

Discussion in 'Brawl Competitive Discussion' started by Mic_128, Mar 16, 2008.

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  1. Mic_128

    Mic_128 MicNums. Gamngsta as eff

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    Since the last topic on this confused a lot of people with the original post seeming too official with the list of "stage bans" and such posted, I feel it's a better idea to remake a new and fresh one so that people won't think that the posted list's are official, because at this point in time, there is no official stage legality lists. Nothing's been banned as yet (though there's a few that are pretty safe to assume, looking at you Hyrule, Poky, Warioware) and as soon as something is decided on, a new topic will be posted with the Smash Back Room's list.

    Until then, please discus away here on what you think could be neutral, counterpick or banned. And above all, keep an open mind.

    EDIT: Here's the List.

    Starter
    Battlefield
    Final Destination
    Smashville
    Yoshi's Island

    Starter/Counter
    Castle Siege
    Delfino
    Halberd
    Lylat Cruise
    Pokémon Stadium 1

    Counter
    Brinstar
    Corneria
    Distant Planet
    Frigate Orpheon
    Green Hill Zone
    Jungle Japes
    Luigi's Mansion
    Norfair
    Pictochat
    Pirate Ship
    Pokémon Stadium 2
    Rainbow Cruise
    Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

    Counter/Banned
    Green Greens
    Mario Circuit
    Onett
    Port Town Aero Dive
    Skyworld

    Banned
    75m
    Big Blue
    Bridge of Eldin
    Flat Zone 2
    Hanenbow
    Hyrule Temple
    Mario Bros.
    Mushroomy Kingdom I
    Mushroomy Kingdom II
    New Pork City
    Rumble Falls
    Shadow Moses
    Spear Pillar
    The Summit
    Wario Ware
  2. Impact009

    Impact009 Smash Journeyman

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    With drillshining and waveshining out, should stages with walls still be banned? The only issues that I can think of that are CGs and Falco's laser locking.
  3. vapblack

    vapblack Smash Cadet

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    No Falco's laser locking should be banned.

    ToonLink's stage, Metaknights, Hannebrow(though I really like it), 75m...
    Most stages should be out lol.
  4. Mic_128

    Mic_128 MicNums. Gamngsta as eff

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    See, that's the problem. WHY should it be out? Because it moves slightly? Because there's some stage hazzards that you can see and predict and avoid (or better yet, knock your opponent into)? Neutral? Hell no. Counterpick? Well it's not broken, it's not an instant death hazard, so why not?
  5. marthsword

    marthsword Smash Ace

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    Should Jigglypuff's Giga Glitch make stage bans for Bride of Eldin and the Toon Link one?

    And put reasons for all the stages you think should be banned.
  6. S623

    S623 Smash Apprentice

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    Well, I could see Hanenbow being out. Me and friends have fallen because we thought there was a platform when there wasn't. Great Sea and the Halberd have hazards that may be able to (theoretically) kill, but they are far too easy to see coming to cause great damage.

    Also, wall stages. I think these are probably out because DeDeDe can keep the chain grab going up until pretty high percentages and then can easily kill. I mean, some characters aren't affected by it, but I don't think those few chars. are enough to justify allowing them all. Maybe as counterpicks?

    EDIT: Addressing the post above me. I don't think that SmashBalls will be allowed in competitive play, so they may be allowed.

    Also, I think that walk-off edge stages should be allowed now. I think there's less possibility of Fox murdering the competition.
  7. SilverChaos

    SilverChaos Smash Apprentice

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    Seeing as smash balls will most likely be out for tourney play, this seems to be a nonissue.

    I like the halberd, all of it's hazards are either slow or give a clear warning, it should be a counter pick.
    Mario Circuit is allright too, nothing like the old mute city.
    Hannenbow, eh, yeah I really hate playing here. It's interesting, but I think the platforms just are not placed right, same for Mario Bros and 75m. Those stages were designed just to match the original games, not as balanced stages.
  8. absox

    absox Smash Rookie

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    but it's already incredibly hard to do already...

  9. ScubaGoomba

    ScubaGoomba Smash Apprentice

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    Do you think we could maybe have a quick definition of the three categories? I think I've managed to grab a pretty good idea of how to distinguish neutral and counterpick, but it would be nice to have some kind of consensus at least on these definitions.

    That aside, I think the following stages should be banned:

    Mushroomy Kingdom: Besides the fact that it's just a bad stage, it's not a viable counterpick due to the chance of randomly getting a different stage. It also scrolls, which means that people with an infinite can get free kills by locking others in against the walls. Not to mention it's just a bad stage.

    Rumble Falls: I'm a bit iffy on this one, as it's terribly predictable and tells you when it speeds up. Ultimately, I think it should be banned, though. Because of the scroll, it forces players to focus more on keeping up with the stage than actually fighting each other and the spikes throughout the stage tend to be better at killing than most players.

    Norfair: There's really no warning when the lava comes, which gives slight, random advantages to players that just happen to be on the right part of the stage. I've also noticed that the capsule doesn't allows allow anybody inside.

    Spear Pillar: Does this one even need to be justified? It's an amazing stage, but it thrives off of the chaos that it creates. Sure, players could learn the altered controls, but it's just a bit much to ask. I would love to see this stage as a counterpick, but I just don't see it happening.

    Port City: The cars are killer and the changes are somewhat aburpt.

    Wario Ware: See Spear Pillar. Same reasoning, but a little more extreme in the case of Wario Ware.

    New Pork City: It's just way too big. The same kinds of problems from Hyrule will obviously be able to show up here.

    75m: Too much going on and not much room to move around from my experience. Not the worst stage out there, but it's just a bit too much for competitive play.

    Mario Bros: Pretty much impossible to KO people without using one of the turtles and Sakurai said, himself, that it breaks the rules of Smash. It's also just a lame stage.

    I haven't used the Melee stages much in Brawl, so I'm not going to pass my own judgment on those just yet.
  10. kooky

    kooky Smash Cadet

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    You say why should it be out, you say there are hazards, but they aren't instant death. Why are items banned then? You could turn off every item that is instant death, but allow items like for example the warp star (every tournament player should be able to avoid it!).
    Seriously, i don't want to force you playing with items on, it's just that you could use the same arguments for items on!
  11. vapblack

    vapblack Smash Cadet

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    hah no smash balls should be banned.
  12. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    New list on page 8.
  13. Kye L

    Kye L Smash Apprentice

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    Before you start banning stages based on the advantage they give to certain FSs, ya'll should decide if you're even going to allow FSs in tournament settings.
  14. vapblack

    vapblack Smash Cadet

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    Shadow Moses is good imo. Same with Yoshi Island, Green Hill Zone......meh other than those I agree with you


    FSs what's that?

    I guess it depends on what kind of tourney you are holding. I'm more into people winning purely off skill, not because MetaKnight chose to shoot his halberd lazer of death right as you were finishing off a combo.
  15. Chrono Centaur

    Chrono Centaur Smash Apprentice

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    Uhh, Battlefield is the most neutral stage ever, I don't think it should be banned. :<

    Also, while playing on Shadow Moses, its incredibly hard to destroy the walls without intending to do so, so that should be counterpick. Otherwise, I agree with Serris completely on the stage bans/counterpicks.
  16. Decadent One

    Decadent One Smash Ace

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    From sirlin.net's Playing To Win book.
    I advise everyone discussing banning stuff to read this.
    Dave Sirlin is exceptionally well known in the world of competitive fighting games, being a top level player at multiple games, notably Super Turbo and Alpha 2.
    He's currently the man balancing the latest incarnation of SF2, the world's most successful fighting game.
    I trust his credentials in regards to competitive play are obvious to everyone.

    This next part I believe is pertinent in the case of Dedede's walk off chain grab.

    There should be bugger all banned by this point. Especially with some of the crappy, whiny reasons i've heard so far. Stages (and items, for that matter), should ONLY be removed where they are game breaking. For them to be proven game breaking should be demonstrated in tournaments.

    The random issue isn't viable - many characters have random aspects. Super Turbo has an insane amount of random factors (everything from damage of moves to dizzy factors). One of GG's most popular high level characters (Faust) is loaded with random moves.

    Potential character adantages? Isn't that the ENTIRE point of counter picking? Also, if you want to ban stages to keep characters balanced, you may as well stamp 'TIERS DON'T EXIST' on your forehead. Characters will be unbalanced to a greater or lesser extent regardless of stages.

    Stage hazards? All are completely avoidable. They're certainly not 'unpredictable'. Brinstar's acid raises in a pattern, and can be seen rising before it reaches the platforms.
    Norfair's lava can also be seen well in advance.
    Port Town's cars only come at certain points, and platforms are provided to avoid them.
    Mario Circuit's cars come in a pattern, and are shown clearly on the stage's backboard.
    etc etc.

    Brawl is a new game. It's not melee.
    We don't have an advanced metagame, a developed tournament scene, or expert players yet. We need these things before we can establish what is best for them.
    Let Brawl's competitive scene advance on its own, and demonstrate clearly what needs to be banned by definite provable evidence, not theory.

    If it can't be proven it needs banned, then it doesn't need banned.
  17. S623

    S623 Smash Apprentice

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    If it's not there, I'm not arguing with you about it.

    Battlefield: Obviously FS are gonna' be off. Though if they're not, I agree with you.
    Great Sea: These stage hazards are second only to the Halberd's. The cannonball is mildly unpredictable at most and the catapult can easily be avoided and recovered from.
    Green Hill Zone: Checkpoints only kill at a percentage of above (roughly) 100% and they're easily avoided. I do agree about the terrain though. I'd go with counterpick for this one.
    Pokemon Stadium: Hmm... Yeah... No. If characters with higher jumping abilities have an advantage on this stage then they're gonna' have just as much of an advantage on any stage with platforms. Though the windmill does occur. Counter-pick
    Shadow Moses Island: Yeah... Walk-off edges aren't as much of a big deal in this game any more. Unless the Back Room has issues with 'em I'd have to go with counter-pick.
    Yoshi's Island: See Shadow Moses.

    Pokemon Stadium: The stage hazards don't kill you unless you're a complete idiot. The fans do give a large advantage to characters with good aerial games. I vote counterpick

    Skyworld: NEVER. This stage has huge issues. Destructible platforms have killed some people numerous times.
  18. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    Both of those bans are relying on Final Smashes being on. I guess I forgot to mention that for Shadow Moses. :laugh:

    As for Skyworld, I find it incredibly easy to avoid getting killed even with the terrain destroyed. Pokémon Stadium is on my banned list because the windmill does present an unfair advantage.
  19. ThatInsaneKid

    ThatInsaneKid Smash Cadet

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    My thoughts in bold.
  20. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    There's no pattern to when Bulbin is coming, though. And, if you're on the wrong side of the stage and have the right amount of damage, he can kill you easily.

    Great Sea, not that many people pay attention to the background.

    Green Hill Zone's destructible center makes it very easy to meteor smash someone into oblivion. Not to mention it's unfair to Sheik and Zero Suit Samus mains, as their meteors also bring them down, too.

    Onett's exclamation mark appears at random times, and the cars can annihilate you if you aren't careful.

    Rumble Falls' "speed up" occurs at semi-random times. You never know when it'll decide to start going faster until it pops up.
  21. S623

    S623 Smash Apprentice

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    No, Rumble Falls has set speed-up times. But even so, it gives drastic advantages to characters with better jumps and you might die by being left behind.

    Yet again, Serris, you'd have to be an idiot to be hit by the cars on Onett.

    Great Sea: That's the individual's fault that they're not paying attention to the background (which doesn't take much effort)

    Bridge of Eldin: Man, do you go out of your way to get hit by these things? It takes no effort to jump over King Bulbin and little effort to avoid the bomb.
  22. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    That's another unsaid reason that popped into my mind about Rumble Falls.

    On Onett, it's actually pretty easy to get hit by a car if you're doing a mid-air dodge and land on the ground as it's coming toward you. Unless you're using a character with minimal/nonexistent landing lag (Samus, for example), you don't have to be an idiot to get hit by the cars.

    And, like I said before, you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bulbin can KO you depending on your damage and which side of the stage you're on. (For example, say Mario was fighting Yoshi on Bridge of Eldin. Yoshi has 125% and Mario has 56. Both have one life left. Yoshi jumps to the left edge of the stage to avoid Mario's attack, when Bulbin shows up and KOs Yoshi. Not exactly fair.)
  23. Pengie

    Pengie Smash Lord

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    I think I've heard a horn sound before Bulbin charges through so it's not that random.
  24. Chicobo329

    Chicobo329 Smash Cadet

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    I made a post on the previous Stage Ban topic that went unanswered:

    "You know I've been wondering, why are we banning stages around broken techniques when we can just ban the broken technique itself? Like, why not just ban infinities likes Falco's so that you can play on Shadow Moses without having to worry about it? I'm not saying we should ban the chaingrab on DDD altogether by the way. Just say something like "Don't use this infinitely against a wall" or something. Anything to at least tell players to fight within reason should be simple enough and thus take stages out from this rather large ban list.

    It seems to me quite a few stages are banned for one or two particular reasons regarding one or two particular characters. If you just resolve this by banning what makes them broken on that stage, you should fight fairly right? Or am I missing something here?"

    A lot of these proposed stage ban lists are still way too huge, it's kinda distressing really :^P Why ban a stage because of one character doing a broken technique when you can just ban the broken technique itself?
  25. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    Added a few more stages to my list and edited the placement of a few after thinking it over. Green Hill Zone and Shadow Moses are still in my banned section, however.
  26. S623

    S623 Smash Apprentice

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    Yeah. You're right about that not being fair. But see, unless you're camping, it's doubtful you'll get hit and your opponent won't.

    But I do see where you're coming from on that one. Onett, though, I still think it's a bit difficult.
  27. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    I bumped Bridge of Eldin and Onett into Counterpick. Definitely not making either of those neutral, though.

    As for Green Hill Zone and Shadow Moses, I'm keeping those perma-banned. Shame, though. I really do like Shadow Moses.
  28. Flan

    Flan Smash Journeyman

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    Bridge of Eldin should only be counterpick in doubles, it is too big for singles.

    I also think Delfino should be neutral due to the fact that there are way too little neutral stages and Delfino is just about borderline between neutral and counterpick.
  29. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    Hmm... Interesting point about Bridge of Eldin. I'll look into that.

    As for Delfino Plaza, thank you for reminding me! I had completely forgotten about it.

    After playing on it for two matches... Yeah. Hanenbow's on the banned list.
  30. Flan

    Flan Smash Journeyman

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    Hanenbow isn't a very good stage in my opinion, but it also has no ledges for people with tether recovery's to recover on.

    Also, I would like to see Frigate Orpheous banned since the stage flips, screwing up edgeguards, combos and possibly killing other players. It also doesn't have a ledge on the one side to start.

    Norfair should be banned and who even likes that stage? Green Hill Zone perma-banned, Bridge of Eldin only allowed in teams, Distant Planet allow to counterpick and maybe Castle Siege neutral?
  31. Kawaii

    Kawaii Smash Rookie

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    5 Neutrals is fine... The way Delfino is designed, definitely shouldn't make it a neutral. Some temporary walls and walk off that Dedede can chain grab to?
  32. ShadowLink84

    ShadowLink84 Smash Hero

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    Battle field should NOT b banned since FS are too powerful to even be used in a tourney.
    Final destination is worse than battle field since characters like Link, Bowser and DK if they get stuck under the ledge its GG for them. Nowhere near as neutral as battle field which may be smaller but has no gimping edges.
  33. hunger!

    hunger! Smash Champion

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    Pirate ship and Halberd should be counterpicks for sure. If you think that a boat shooting at you and a ship shooting at you are going to make the match differ than you're wrong. You can clearly see those hazards coming at you and it your fault if you get hit by them.
  34. ShadowLink84

    ShadowLink84 Smash Hero

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    Pirate ship can get yo killed. I've been hit twice by the stupid wheel when I was busy fighitng my opponent.

    So not too sure about it, also i think the cannonballs come in a bit faster than Halberds not too sure.

    Halberd for counterpick.

    Not sure about pirate
  35. ZMan

    ZMan Smash Master

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    Neutral Stages:
    Battlefield- Nothing to interfere with gameplay
    FD- See BAttle field
    New Yoshi Island- No hazards, great layout, and cool graphics
    Lylat- See New Yoshi Island
    Smashville- see above
    Halberd- The hazards on this stages are jokes. It really easy to doge the lazer, arm, and the canon. Even though the arm and lazer do target a player, it doesn't target a specific player, giving both players equality in that sense.
    Frigate Orpheon- The flip is no big deal becuase all you have to do is jump when the siren goes off.It really isn't a problem if you are not deaf.
    Pokemon Stadium 1- Same as before, there really isn't any problems outside o the windmill, but that transformation may not come up at all.


    I'll post more later
  36. Serris

    Serris ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    Most of those are already in the sections you wanted them, however, Frigate Orpheon is most definitely not banned due to the warning siren given before the stage flipping.
  37. Neoteric

    Neoteric Smash Cadet

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    wario ware for out. encourages doing stupid **** for a prize rather than fighting.
  38. DMG

    DMG Brawl Backroom Member

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    Although it is fun when it says "Don't move" and "Taunt" and you decide to smack the s*** outta everyone that stops fighting :)
  39. Rorus Raz

    Rorus Raz Smash Rookie

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    A smart player will take out a player trying to do some of the microgames. Playing with friends, I got killed by being stupid and doing the "Don't Move!" game.

    Nonetheless, the invincibility prize is ridiculous and the stage is an obvious ban.
  40. WuTangDude

    WuTangDude Smash Ace

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    So what's the word on walk-off edges?

    Are stages with walk-off edges gonna be banned? Because I would really like to see Green Hill Zone as a counterpick (Only thing stopping is those darn checkpoints...)
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