Official Stage Legality Discussion

[CT Chia]

Being tourney director and thinking about this from holding a Brawl tourney soon, I might was well throw my hat into the ring...

Final Destination (Neutral) - Obvious

Battlefield (Neutral) - Obvious

Smashville (Neutral) - Obvious

Castle Siege (Neutral) - Not bad at all, no real hazards, two parts of the stage resemble normal neutral stages. Walk off in second part isn't bad because of the whole upper area so D3's chain grab shouldn't be a problem.

Pokemon Stadium (Neutral) - It was in Melee, and it's barely changed. The windmill isn't enough to make it counterpick.

Lylat Cruise (Neutral) - Besides tilting, no hazards. It's fine.

Yoshi's Island Brawl (Neutral) - Obvious

Delfino Plaza (Neutral) - No real hazards, stage is pretty basic.

Skyworld (Counterpick) - Shouldn't be neutral as the breakable parts are pretty weird, and you can be meteored through the clouds. If it's abused too much in tourneys, it's possible it could become banned. For now however, keep it counterpick.

Corneria (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Green Greens (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Brinstar (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Jungle Japes (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Rainbow Cruise (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Luigi's Mansion (Counterpick) - Fairly basic stage, especially when building is leveled. However it shouldn't be neutral because some characters have a disadvantage due to the stage being a giant hitbox. Projectiles get nerfed, and people who rely on aerials like Marth get more lag if they hit the stage.

Norfair (Counterpick) - Lava isn't that bad, you can shield it. Besides that, it's similar to Brinstar which had no problems in competitive play.

Stages that should be banned that others may think otherwise:

Port Town: Cars kill at low percent, stage lands in random places and times, cars are very fast with little warning. Some areas have huge gaps that make it near impossible for certain characters to recover.

Bridge of Eldin: Besides the problem o D3, the stage is too big. Once the middle blows up and the two opponents are on both sides, it becomes a camp match and the one with projectiles succeeds. Some characters have trouble jumping over the gap.

Great Sea: If you're in the water and touch the ship, its death at 0%. The catapult can throw you really far even at 0% and is quite unexpected. When the ship falling everyone is even floatier which gives certain characters advantages.

Stages I'm unsure about:

Frigate Orpheon (Neutral or Counterpick) - The only hazard is stage flipping which isn't bad at all, and you're given fair warning. Should it be neutral??

Mario Circuit (Counterpick or Banned) - I don't know what to think about this one... anyone have any suggestions?

Shadow Moses Island (Counterpick or Banned) - The walls make it tough which probably grants a banning, but it's arguable in some sense.

 

[Neoteric]

pirate ships for banned, stupid little flipper thing

 

[Lore]

I agree completely with you on the banned stages.

Frigate should be counter since it gives you a good warning before the flip.

circuit should be counter pick since it also gives you warning before the karts come.

shadow moses should be banned since Dedede can infinitely chain grab on the walls.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Disagreements w/ Serris's list:
Banned:
Brinstar - Unpredictability of the acid levels rising. Unpredictable? There's fair warning when it'll rise, counterpick.
Hanenbow - Unpredictable stage hazards. This stage sure has a lot of hazards. >_>.
Norfair - Unpredictability of the lava levels rising. Stage awareness is important, you can hear the stage make sounds when the lava flow is changing, the camera shifts well before the left/right lava pouring occurs, and it's possible to shield the giant flow of lava, so everyone isn't restricted to the safe zone.
Pokémon Stadium - Potentially able to keep someone behind the windmill and rack up damage points. Characters with higher jumping abilities have an edge. Debatable. The windmill is completely predictable, Yoshi's Story and Dreamland 64 in Melee favored certain characters over others, and they were Neutral.
Rainbow Cruise - Scrolling stage. Potential random advantages. Debatable. It was like that in Melee, and some tournaments had it as a Neutral in that game. Counterpick, at least.

Counterpick:

Battleship Halberd - Predictable stage hazard. I feel this should be a Neutral considering how predictable the stage's hazards are.
Bridge of Eldin - Predictable stage hazard. It's a giant walk off and camp city. Deserves to be banned.
Flat Zone 2 - Predictable stage hazards. Debatable. The lion section is completely unpredictable and will kill you dead. Oh, and it's a walk-off.
Frigate Orpheon - Predictable stage hazard. Like Halberd, ridiculously predictable. Only bad thing about the stage is the lack of right ledge on one of tha halves of the stage
Luigi's Mansion - Predictable stage hazards. ...the stage has no hazards. The only bad things about the stage are the ability to camp the center of the house and the cave of life, but both can be defeated by destroying the stage.

Neutral:

Corneria This stage was borderline broken in Melee, and it still retains the low ceiling/campy wall from Melee. At least the ship lasers are more predictable this time around.
Skyworld The stage is a giant cave of life, and when it isn't, it ***** the hell out of tether recoveries. Counterpick at best.

 

[Pengie]

Being tourney director and thinking about this from holding a Brawl tourney soon, I might was well throw my hat into the ring...

Final Destination (Neutral) - Obvious

Battlefield (Neutral) - Obvious

Smashville (Neutral) - Obvious

Castle Siege (Neutral) - Not bad at all, no real hazards, two parts of the stage resemble normal neutral stages. Walk off in second part isn't bad because of the whole upper area so D3's chain grab shouldn't be a problem.

Pokemon Stadium (Neutral) - It was in Melee, and it's barely changed. The windmill isn't enough to make it counterpick.

Lylat Cruise (Neutral) - Besides tilting, no hazards. It's fine.

Yoshi's Island Brawl (Neutral) - Obvious

Delfino Plaza (Neutral) - No real hazards, stage is pretty basic.

Skyworld (Counterpick) - Shouldn't be neutral as the breakable parts are pretty weird, and you can be meteored through the clouds. If it's abused too much in tourneys, it's possible it could become banned. For now however, keep it counterpick. I would probably ban this, the bottom platform is like Temple's basement in that you could walltech the whole match to never die.

Corneria (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Green Greens (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Brinstar (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Jungle Japes (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Rainbow Cruise (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Luigi's Mansion (Counterpick) - Fairly basic stage, especially when building is leveled. However it shouldn't be neutral because some characters have a disadvantage due to the stage being a giant hitbox. Projectiles get nerfed, and people who rely on aerials like Marth get more lag if they hit the stage.

Norfair (Counterpick) - Lava isn't that bad, you can shield it. Besides that, it's similar to Brinstar which had no problems in competitive play.

Stages that should be banned that others may think otherwise:

Port Town: Cars kill at low percent, stage lands in random places and times, cars are very fast with little warning. Some areas have huge gaps that make it near impossible for certain characters to recover.

Bridge of Eldin: Besides the problem o D3, the stage is too big. Once the middle blows up and the two opponents are on both sides, it becomes a camp match and the one with projectiles succeeds. Some characters have trouble jumping over the gap.

Great Sea: If you're in the water and touch the ship, its death at 0%. The catapult can throw you really far even at 0% and is quite unexpected. When the ship falling everyone is even floatier which gives certain characters advantages.

Stages I'm unsure about:

Frigate Orpheon (Neutral or Counterpick) - The only hazard is stage flipping which isn't bad at all, and you're given fair warning. Should it be neutral?? The stage seems pretty neutral since you are given a warning but people will still complain that you could get gimped if you are trying to edgeguard.

Mario Circuit (Counterpick or Banned) - I don't know what to think about this one... anyone have any suggestions? The only bad thing is the walk offs since you can see the cars coming.

Shadow Moses Island (Counterpick or Banned) - The walls make it tough which probably grants a banning, but it's arguable in some sense. Not sure about this one.

My thoughts are in bold.

 

[amished]

Stages that should be banned that others may think otherwise:

Port Town: Cars kill at low percent, stage lands in random places and times, cars are very fast with little warning. Some areas have huge gaps that make it near impossible for certain characters to recover.

Bridge of Eldin: Besides the problem o D3, the stage is too big. Once the middle blows up and the two opponents are on both sides, it becomes a camp match and the one with projectiles succeeds. Some characters have trouble jumping over the gap.

Great Sea: If you're in the water and touch the ship, its death at 0%. The catapult can throw you really far even at 0% and is quite unexpected. When the ship falling everyone is even floatier which gives certain characters advantages.

Stages I'm unsure about:

Frigate Orpheon (Neutral or Counterpick) - The only hazard is stage flipping which isn't bad at all, and you're given fair warning. Should it be neutral??

Mario Circuit (Counterpick or Banned) - I don't know what to think about this one... anyone have any suggestions?

Shadow Moses Island (Counterpick or Banned) - The walls make it tough which probably grants a banning, but it's arguable in some sense.

For the most part I agree with your reasoning. I need to play more on port town, but it always looked like it lands in the same area everytime (much like the FZero stage in Melee) so I'd give that a counterpick.

As for Bridge of Eldin, it is really easy to see when the bomb will blow up, giving you enough time to get close to your opponent so you're not stuck. However, the sheer size of the bridge when completely there makes me unsure.

Regarding the Great Sea, after I got tossed by the catapult once, I never got hit by it again. It's obvious when it'll launch you, comes up in the same spot every time, and you have platforms that you can be on if you're really that worried about it. As for the floating, that's the same effect that's in Pokemon Stadium 2, so I don't view that as a lone argument for this stage.

Frigate is a tough one. I don't think it should be banned either, though it's hard to justify neutral. I don't remember any Melee neutrals that had that disruptive of a stage hazard, but like you said it's easy to see coming. Might set up for some interesting combo play though..

Mario Circuit: The cars don't kill you at any reasonable percentage compared to characters, and the screen in the background shows you where they are. Even if you don't look at the screen, the pattern is very obvious, and comes in relatively the same interval each way. Platforms are there to help prevent any D3 cgrabbing, so I'd vote counterpick on this.

For Shadow Moses, I think it's a great counterpick stage against people that don't have a good upwards kill move. it isn't a full circle techfest like Hyrule, so it's still possible to KO. I'm having a hard time banning it until someone always breaks any match-ups that they bring there in a tournament.

 

[RayJT9]

Shadow Moses should be banned, IMO. Kirby has a 1-hit kill glitch on it, if I remember correctly.

Will mess around with it and post here if I figure out what it was.

EDIT: Not a 1-hit kill, seems to be entirely situational. KOs at between 30% and 40%. If you're Kirby, standing by (but facing away from) a wall in Shadow Moses, use your up-throw and the character you're throwing will bounce off the top of the wall and be sent off the top.

--Ray

 

[Osi]

osi picks

Guess I'll share my thoughts on stages being used for competitions. Tried to keep a level view in my picks. Sorry in advance for it being a small wall of text, I tried to break it up for easier reading.



Random start stages::

Battlefield - random starting stage, no reason to not be

Final Destination - random starting stage, no real issues

Delfino - random starting stage, only issues is walls for small portions of the level changes which can be exploited

Luigi's mansion - random start stage, no real issues

Yoshi's Island - random start stage, no reason not to be

Smashville - random start stage, no issues

Skyworld - random start stage, can be camped but not a big issue

Lylat Cruise - random start stage, no real issues

Pokemon Stadium 2 -random start stage



Counter Picks::

Mario Circuit - counter pick stage, the stage hazards a small and easy to avoid, the only real issue is dedede can chaingrab to the walk off walls

Bridge of eldin - counter pick stage, same issues as mario circuit

Pirate Ship - counter pick stage, small hazards that shouldn't be an issue.... it could actually be a random stage too if people don't mind the water floor

Halberd - counter pick, same issues as mario circuit again

Port Town Dive - counter pick, stage hazards are not hard to avoid, but they can kill so this may be banned also

Castle Siege - counter pick, no big hazards

Distant Planet - counter, small hazards and the mouth ko hazard is easy to avoid

Hanenbow - counter pick, no big hazards

Shadow Moses Island - Counter pick, no big issues other than walls that can be exploited by some characters

Green Hill Zone - counter pick, small checkpoint obstacle hazard and easy to avoid pieces of the level drop off



Banned::

Summit - counter/banned, tough call because of the stage hazards

Norfair - Banned, large stage hazards that kill at low %

Warioware - banned, multiple hazards that kill

Frigate Orpheon - Banned, characters can be stuck under the stage when it flips

75m - banned, hyrule issue

New Pork City - banned, hyrule hit and run issue

Spear Pillar - banned, big stage hazards that kill

Mario Bros. - banned, stage hazards.. walk off walls.... and low platforms that can be used for uptilt infinites

Flat Zone 2 - banned, multiple stage hazards that are hard to avoid and walk off walls

Pictochat - banned, bad stage hazards

Rumble Falls - banned, just like IC melee was

Mushroomy Kingdom - should be banned due to a moving walk off wall dedede can chaingrab into, also multiple stage obstacles that can be exploited like camping above the level when the enemy respawns just up throw them out


Hope you guys agree with a few of them^^. I'm not going to list melee stages because I still agree with the random/counter/ban choices used on melee tournaments.

 

[Zink]

I think walkoffs/vertical walls need to be banned, thanks to D3's chaingrab. it isn't really all that different from shine trap other than it's a throw.

 

[Eten]

Hi. On the stages...

-We all know the 6 simple stages that are quality.
-Stages that have excessively high random damage are a problem.
-Stages with camera problems are also an issue.
-Stages that scroll are a problem.
-Stages with walkoffs are fine. In melee there was the issue of Fox's infinite shine able to just shine people off the side. This opens up many more stages than people seem to realize at the moment.
-There is a lot of interesting course manipulation in some of the courses. Much of it can be considered random, but not to a ridiculous degree or it gives you a fair amount of warning, and course manipulation works both ways.
-Possibly an issue with certain courses because of their size.
-Certain notable exceptions.

Group 1: Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Lylat cruise, and Pokemon Stadium I.
Group 2: Port Town, Aerodive(extremely high damage vehicles that can even go over platforms off the ground, KOing at very low %s), 75m, Flatzone II(high damage and KOing random movement course hazards), Norfair(the lava waves are all fine and predictable, but the jets of flame cause the problem). Spear Pillar(many very random extremely high damage and KOing hazards).
Group 3: Mostly just New Pork City.
Group 4: Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, Rainbow cruise.
Group 5: Mario Circuit, Bridge of Eldin, Castle Siege, Distant Planet, Mario Bros., Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island(melee), and Onett.
Group 6: Delfino Plaza(course just shifts, water), Luigi's Mansion(destroyable course), Mario Circuit(avoidable and predictable damage carts), Bridge of Eldin(avoidable rider and bomb, destroying center of bridge), Pirate ship(moving water, possible death from the bow of the ship, interesting things on the physics during the tornado and the very foreseeable bomb damage/knockback, simple universal catapult hazard), Frigate Orpheon(quick sound warning, then a sudden flip with a stage shift), Halberd(minor stage shifts, very very predictable laser, canon, and claw arm attacks), Castle Siege(stage shift, destroyable course), pokemon stadium II(stage shifts, major course alterations, but no one-sided random factors and can be manipulated in both ways), Distant Planet(moving water, obvious giant bulborb), Summit(it tilts and slides down, giving lightweight physics for part. The fish instant KO may or may not be an issue, it does not seem very random), Skyworld(can have a temple-like effect on wall/cieling techs, BUT the breakable stage and passable clouds counteract this. Stage manipulation works both ways), Pictochat(lot's of random drawings, but none of the damage components is unforeseeable. Most of it is like Pokemon stadium on steroids), Hanenbow(platforms move up and down when damage. I hate this course, but I can find no legit bannable components), Shadow Moses Island(same vein as Skyworld), Green Hill Zone(obvious bumper and well manage holes appearing in the ground), Yoshi's Island(melee)(flippable blocks), Jungle Japes(moving water, also croc attack- like the Summit fish, is this an issue or not?), Onett(clear warning for avoidable cars), Corneria(Minor damage lasers), Green Greens(Falling blocks/bombs in a limited area), Brinstar(partly destroyable, predictable non-high damage lava).
Group 7: This is just a problem from too large in size allowing fast character to stall by running away. This is obnoxious, but really only applies to Temple, which has it's own issue of being impossible to KO on in the "underground" because of the ability to tech on walls and ceilings non-stop. For the amount of game changing that goes on because of the course alone, this seems bannable to me.
Group 8: Unique Exceptions. Warioware would be fine if the bonuses weren't so random and dominating. Mario Bros. provides an abundance of interference of walking koopas and crabs and appearing fireballs, with a game dominating ability to throw them. Big Blue- a fun course, but has an issue with excessively uneven grounds to play on.

So let me put it into a simple list:
6 basic randoms: Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Lylat cruise, and Pokemon Stadium I.
20 Courses that should be choosable: Delfino Plaza, Luigi's Mansion, Mario Circuit, Bridge of Eldin, Pirate ship, Frigate Orpheon, Halberd, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium II, Distant Planet, Skyworld, Pictochat, Hanenbow, Shadow Moses Island, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island, Onett, Corneria, Green Greens, Brinstar.
2 Courses in question: Summit, Jungle Japes.
12 Banned courses: New Pork City, Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, Rainbow cruise, Temple, Wario Ware, Mario Bros, Port Town: Aerodive, 75m, Flatzone II, Norfair, Spear Pillar, Big Blue.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

-Stages with walkoffs are fine. In melee there was the issue of Fox's infinite shine able to just shine people off the side. This opens up many more stages than people seem to realize at the moment.

You forget that Dedede's chaingrabbing is essentially the new waveshine for walk-off stages.

And there's nothing wrong with Rainbow Cruise. There wasn't in Melee. Pokefloats was legal in Melee.

 

[PityLord]

From sirlin.net's Playing To Win book.
I advise everyone discussing banning stuff to read this.
Dave Sirlin is exceptionally well known in the world of competitive fighting games, being a top level player at multiple games, notably Super Turbo and Alpha 2.
He's currently the man balancing the latest incarnation of SF2, the world's most successful fighting game.
I trust his credentials in regards to competitive play are obvious to everyone.



This next part I believe is pertinent in the case of Dedede's walk off chain grab.



There should be bugger all banned by this point. Especially with some of the crappy, whiny reasons i've heard so far. Stages (and items, for that matter), should ONLY be removed where they are game breaking. For them to be proven game breaking should be demonstrated in tournaments.

The random issue isn't viable - many characters have random aspects. Super Turbo has an insane amount of random factors (everything from damage of moves to dizzy factors). One of GG's most popular high level characters (Faust) is loaded with random moves.

Potential character adantages? Isn't that the ENTIRE point of counter picking? Also, if you want to ban stages to keep characters balanced, you may as well stamp 'TIERS DON'T EXIST' on your forehead. Characters will be unbalanced to a greater or lesser extent regardless of stages.

Stage hazards? All are completely avoidable. They're certainly not 'unpredictable'. Brinstar's acid raises in a pattern, and can be seen rising before it reaches the platforms.
Norfair's lava can also be seen well in advance.
Port Town's cars only come at certain points, and platforms are provided to avoid them.
Mario Circuit's cars come in a pattern, and are shown clearly on the stage's backboard.
etc etc.

Brawl is a new game. It's not melee.
We don't have an advanced metagame, a developed tournament scene, or expert players yet. We need these things before we can establish what is best for them.
Let Brawl's competitive scene advance on its own, and demonstrate clearly what needs to be banned by definite provable evidence, not theory.

If it can't be proven it needs banned, then it doesn't need banned.

Look at the guys whole post on page 2. He is absolutely right. Banning to much stages early could be bad later whit the development of the metagame which could result in actually limited stage choice later. I think that most stages should be tested out in tourney play and then ban those obviously rediculous.

 

[Eten]

You forget that Dedede's chaingrabbing is essentially the new waveshine for walk-off stages.

Last I heard Dedede's chaingrabbing only works on a certain weight character, and not impossible to break from w/ any character. Can anyone actually showcase Dedede dominating walk-off courses with his chain grab?

And there's nothing wrong with Rainbow Cruise. There wasn't in Melee. Pokefloats was legal in Melee.

Just trying to define good course/bad course based on scrolling actions. Rainbow Cruise scrolls slowly, but it still scrolls. Is that fair or not? Mushroomy Kingdom also never scrolls extremely fast, is it in the same boat as Rainbow cruise or not?

 

[g5otaku]

NO Shadow moses island. ;_;

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I've been playing for a really long time, and the only stage that really seems to be mismatched is rumble falls. Only because it takes alot of the actual brawling out of the game....Even so I'm not hasty enough to suggest a ban on it yet.

I like Norfair thank you. It keeps the battle interesting, those slow to adjust are quickly schooled. Stay on your toes!

Can someone explain to me how any stage is nuetral? All stages can favor certain characters, even battlefield...but the MOST nuetral stage I can think of is battlefield.

 

[O Rly?]

I haven't scoured the entire thread, but I believe Great Sea, Delfino Plaza, and any other stages with water above a pit should be considered for a banning, on the grounds that they give Ganondorf (and possibly Bowser, still untested) an unfair advantage with their suicide move.

Specific reason - Ganondorf's Side+B aerial suicide will plunge both characters downward. However, since Ganondorf is considered to be above his opponent when he plunges downward, the opponent will die and Ganondorf will re-surface, no harm done.

Test it yourself, and then please consider it for banning.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Last I heard Dedede's chaingrabbing only works on a certain weight character, and not impossible to break from w/ any character. Can anyone actually showcase Dedede dominating walk-off courses with his chain grab?

Some characters it IS impossible to break from, but some characters will fall down from the grab...just like waveshining in Melee.

Just trying to define good course/bad course based on scrolling actions. Rainbow Cruise scrolls slowly, but it still scrolls. Is that fair or not? Mushroomy Kingdom also never scrolls extremely fast, is it in the same boat as Rainbow cruise or not?

Because Rainbow Cruise scrolls slowly, there is less "fighting the stage" than one would have with Rumble Falls, but Mushroomy Kingdom (I'll be talking about 1-1 since 1-2 is just a giant cave of life) has plenty of walls to infinite (and with the scroll, a free kill), and even Dedede can take advantage of the walkoffs the stage offers, but not nearly as much as he can on other stages. All 3 of the stages you listed are scrollers are good in the sense that they can be played with stage knowledge, but they have other quirks that detract from gameplay. It's a shame too, I really enjoy playing on Mushroomy Kingdom, but I was also a huge fan of Pokefloats in Melee >_>

 

[Flyingsporks]

Rumble Falls needs to be banned, worst stage I have played by far. Yes there is a clear indication of when it will speed up, but characters with a better jump are at a clear advantage.

 

[Serris]

Being tourney director and thinking about this from holding a Brawl tourney soon, I might was well throw my hat into the ring...

Final Destination (Neutral) - Obvious

Battlefield (Neutral) - Obvious

Smashville (Neutral) - Obvious

Castle Siege (Neutral) - Not bad at all, no real hazards, two parts of the stage resemble normal neutral stages. Walk off in second part isn't bad because of the whole upper area so D3's chain grab shouldn't be a problem.

Pokemon Stadium (Neutral) - It was in Melee, and it's barely changed. The windmill isn't enough to make it counterpick.

Lylat Cruise (Neutral) - Besides tilting, no hazards. It's fine.

Yoshi's Island Brawl (Neutral) - Obvious

Delfino Plaza (Neutral) - No real hazards, stage is pretty basic.

Skyworld (Counterpick) - Shouldn't be neutral as the breakable parts are pretty weird, and you can be meteored through the clouds. If it's abused too much in tourneys, it's possible it could become banned. For now however, keep it counterpick.

Corneria (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Green Greens (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Brinstar (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Jungle Japes (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Rainbow Cruise (Counterpick) - Look at Melee

Luigi's Mansion (Counterpick) - Fairly basic stage, especially when building is leveled. However it shouldn't be neutral because some characters have a disadvantage due to the stage being a giant hitbox. Projectiles get nerfed, and people who rely on aerials like Marth get more lag if they hit the stage.

Norfair (Counterpick) - Lava isn't that bad, you can shield it. Besides that, it's similar to Brinstar which had no problems in competitive play.

Stages that should be banned that others may think otherwise:

Port Town: Cars kill at low percent, stage lands in random places and times, cars are very fast with little warning. Some areas have huge gaps that make it near impossible for certain characters to recover.

Bridge of Eldin: Besides the problem o D3, the stage is too big. Once the middle blows up and the two opponents are on both sides, it becomes a camp match and the one with projectiles succeeds. Some characters have trouble jumping over the gap.

Great Sea: If you're in the water and touch the ship, its death at 0%. The catapult can throw you really far even at 0% and is quite unexpected. When the ship falling everyone is even floatier which gives certain characters advantages.

Stages I'm unsure about:

Frigate Orpheon (Neutral or Counterpick) - The only hazard is stage flipping which isn't bad at all, and you're given fair warning. Should it be neutral??

Mario Circuit (Counterpick or Banned) - I don't know what to think about this one... anyone have any suggestions?

Shadow Moses Island (Counterpick or Banned) - The walls make it tough which probably grants a banning, but it's arguable in some sense.

Frigate Orpheon and Mario Circuit should both be Neutral for the simple reason that you can see both hazards coming. (Though having to look at the Mario Circuit background can be a bit distracting.) As for Shadow Moses, perma-ban.

 

[joenopride]

I'm stealing this idea from t!mmy but I think the biggest thing that needs to be addressed is "what makes a stage neutral, counterpick, and banned". I can say," Frigate Orpheon has stage hazards, counter-pick!" and be done with it, or we could go into a little bit deeper. The following are in my opinion:

Neutral
- no stage hazards deal percent
-environmental movement cannot outright kill
- offers no extreme advantages to a small chunk of the characters
- does not create a game altering tactic specific to the stage

Counterpick
- stage deals damage using percent
- environmental damage can kill at higher percents
- environmental damage can kill without care and/or proper DI
- hazards and environmental change have forewarning
- environment does not promote a game altering tactic specific to the stage
- offers a slight advantage to a small number of characters
- offers a slight disadvantage to a small number of characters

Banned
- stage hazards deal high damage
- stage hazards can kill at lower percents with proper DI
- promotes game altering techniques (i.e. camping on New Pork City)
- stage hazards cannot be properly prepared for
- offers an extreme advantage to any number of characters
- offers an extreme disadvantage to any number of characters

I think any argument that springs up in this topic is not going to be about agreeing that Mario Circuit should be banned, but the argument would be about what each person thinks a banned stage is.

 

[Mic_128]

Hanenbow isn't a very good stage in my opinion, but it also has no ledges for people with tether recovery's to recover on.

Have you played it? You can tether (and grab) onto the pointy end of every leaf.

 

[Flan]

Have you played it? You can tether (and grab) onto the pointy end of every leaf.

Really? I've played the stage lots but I didn't think you could tether/grab onto the pointy end of every leaf. I guess I'd better have to check my facts next time.

 

[sxiz]

Zamus has her back jump and Hanenbow is more suited to Squirtle than Ivysaur, so it seems fine to me. Olimar needs some screwing over. The only tether problems are when you are between two leaves and the tether is like 'oh no which one do i grab help >_>'. It just might be too big though. It's a good sized stage.

Frigate's edge and flip aren't problems unless you're comboing. If you're edgehogging, the stage screws over vertically recovering characters anyways. Edgeguarding off stage shoudn't be interrupted too badly. As long as you can remember that the first part of the stage on the platform's side is not an edge, you should be fine since there's a platform right next to it. If the siren sounds when you're being respawned, jump. I think you die or something if you don't. >>

Maybe it should be counterpick.

 

[NintenJoe]

What stages should be banned? I personally love every last one of the stages in Brawl, even the moving ones. But I beleive some just won't make the cut to unfair environmental hazards.

Rumble Falls

Unfair spike about 20 seconds after the game starts. If a character is to even touch the spike at any percentage, thay're killed almost instantly. I have seen cases where the spike didn't kill, but rarely.

Hannebow

The strange ledges and "fake" water make this stage too weird for tournament play. There's even a fake twig on the left side of the stage.

Mushroomy Kingdom

Unfortunately, the random occurence of this stage changing makes it too much of a risk to be used in tournament play. Tournament organizers also don't like moving stages...

New Pork City

This stage is just too big. The Super Chimera is a very small factor in this stages ultimate ban. It's too big and projectiles are easily spammable.

Some other stages will probably be removed due to environmental hazards, but these are the only ones I would ban...

 

[fargokraft]

(this is currently my rulings for the stages)
(note: my first tournament doesn't abide by them)

LEGEND
red = ban
blue = counterpick
green = nuetral


Melee-

Hyrule- banned, too big (same as melee)

Yoshi's Island- banned, not sure why. Was banned in tournaments I went to. Perhaps that wave shine thing, perhaps that jiggly puff- throw into block- sleep kill instantly thing. Might unban later.

Jungle Japes- counterpick (same as melee)

Onett- undecided, I haven't played on this much. I haven't seen it used very much at tournaments either.
currently I'm banning it.

Corneria- counterpick (same as melee)

Rainbow Cruise- counterpick (same as melee)

Big Blue - undecided, I haven't seen this played that much in tournaments. Currently running it banned, but may change to counter pick later.

Brinstar- undecided, I haven't seen this played that much in tournaments. I'm hearing some arguements in this thread about it being a counterpick. Was it in melee? Don't know. Til I find out from Adam or something I'm running it banned.

Pokemon Stadium - nuetral, like in melee

BRAWL

Battlefield - nuetral

Final Destination - nuetral

Delfino Plaza - nuetral, this feels like pokemon stadium 1 to me. Its not a scroller, gravity isn't effected- merely the terrain changes.

Luigi's Manshion - counterpick, I actually use this as a counterpick against projectiles. It actually does give me a slight advantage allowing me to corner my opponents more easily

Mushroomy Kingdom - banned- people have presented some interesting arguments of techniques I have not yet seen, including comboing people into the wall- that's not the reason I banned this. The reason is because the area in which you can KO opponents is very limited- especially if you go underground. It'll make the match drag out a lil.

Mario Circuit - banned, car hazards ( I personally don't care about hazards, but that was one of the main reasons I kept hearing people ban stages for in regard to melee)

Rumble Falls - banned, hazards.

Bridge of Elden - banned, bomb hazard. I actually really like this level. Asides from the hazard thing, there were some good arguments in regards to camping.

Pirate Ship - banned, catapult hazard, cannon hazard. This level is one of my favorites. T_T Neat technique on gannon dwarf and Bowser (that I read about here in this thread). XD I'm some what interested in making this a counterpick. But currently, from the hazards alone- I doub thee banned.

Norfair - banned, damage hazards

Frigate Orpheon - counterpick, the stage flipping can add to some interesting tactics. Has no damaging hazards

Yoshi's Island - nuetral

Halberd - banned, hazards

Lylat Cruise - nuetral, actually I was going to ban this BECAUSE I thought the ships shoot you. But according to many of you here, they do not. If that's the case, by all means- nuetral!

Pokemon Stadium 2 - counterpick, the changes in this level are actually more extreme and add some interesting nuissances to game play. Especially the wind level with its gravity decrease and the electric level with those 2 d*mn tread mills.

Spear Pillar- banned, MY FAVORITE LEVEL! I LOVE THE MIND F*CKS!! haha, but alas, damage hazards.

F-Zero- banned, hazards

Castle Seige- banned, hazards. haha, I know, its just arrows. but I'm keeping consistent here. The other parts of the stages I haven't examined thoroughly.

WarioWare- banned, hazards. This level is so much fun!! I think it would make an interesting counterpick. haha- especially if it resulted in your opponent actually playing the minigames. XD

Distant Planet- banned, hazards. AGAIN! my SECOND FAVORITE LEVEL! T_T I'd really like to see this as a counterpick- its so much fun, and that **** slug thing acts as a freak'n edge. You hit the edge you die right? You hit that thing, you die! Its just closer.

Smashville- nuetral

New pork city- banned, too big (as hyrule)

Summit- banned, hazards. THIRD favorite level! I'd like to see this as a counterpick too. X3 really good level. Especially like the fishes and ice effect. X3

Skyworld- counterpick. Serious counterpick against Ike. I'm maining Ike- and I have a hard time on this level because the blocks absorb my attacks... in addition- it makes it difficult to recover. Gliders have a pretty good advantage here. Possibly interested in banning this stage. But we'll see how its ran at tournaments.

75m - banned, hazards.

Mario Bros- banned, depends on hazards to win.

Flat Zone 2 - banned, hazards. (those zoo keepers are evil!) but this level is one of my favs. X3

Picto Chat - banned, hazards. haha, right up there with flat zone. I really enjoy this level. I think this would be interesting as a counterpick.

Hanenbow - counterpick. Some argued that people like Ike have a hard time here. Like I said- I main him and I don't. Because the ground is so limited- my area of effect controls the playing feild. Just got to be careful not to attack off stage or I can't recover. And as someone else pointed out- you can grab the tips of the leaves.

Shadow Moses Island - banned. Interesting points- the main one I'll use is that it stalls KOs with those pillars. (essentially my arguement for Mushroomy Kingdom.) fun map, but I don't feel it fits the pace of a tourney.

Green Hill Zone- banned, hazards. IT MAKES SONIC IMBA! just kidding.

This is currently how I'm considering running my second tourney as far as stages-
and yeah, playing with the Final Smash ball. Its really fun and all,
but when it comes to skill... sure there's a little in getting the thing...
but I'd want it to show up very very very rarely...
alas, at the lowest setting on items- it still shows every 15 seconds...
so yeah, I'm going to drop it.
competitively- we want to take out the chance factor as much as possible
show us some skills. ^3^

Hope the official counterpicks/nuetrals/and bans becomes awesome!
go brawl forum! :D '3

 

[Rikka]

Ninten, do you have an actual reason for Hannebow to be banned? What you put down amounted to "I don't like it."

And Poke Floats/Rainbow Cruise were allowed in tourneys in Melee. So was Brinstar. Also, damaging hazards aren't even close to the main reason stages are banned unless they're absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Eten]

Neutral
- no stage hazards deal percent
-environmental movement cannot outright kill
- offers no extreme advantages to a small chunk of the characters
- does not create a game altering tactic specific to the stage

Counterpick
- stage deals damage using percent
- environmental damage can kill at higher percents
- environmental damage can kill without care and/or proper DI
- hazards and environmental change have forewarning
- environment does not promote a game altering tactic specific to the stage
- offers a slight advantage to a small number of characters
- offers a slight disadvantage to a small number of characters

Banned
- stage hazards deal high damage
- stage hazards can kill at lower percents with proper DI
- promotes game altering techniques (i.e. camping on New Pork City)
- stage hazards cannot be properly prepared for
- offers an extreme advantage to any number of characters
- offers an extreme disadvantage to any number of characters

I would go with this guide, right here, for stage classification. Next to that, I'd like to see an actual in-tournament "survival of the fittest" process for the stages. Basically, if we see these walk-off stages becoming a huge problem because of King Dedede chaingrabs, they can rule them out, and other similar things. (Although from the looks of it, Dedede already has some infinites that don't even involve moving and it may be part of a much bigger issue)

 

[Firestorm88]

Stop calling for Haenbow to be banned because you didn't realize there was a twig on the side that you can't stand on. Or because you thought you could swim. In a tournament setting, that doesn't matter. You didn't know the stage? Too bad. You've had more than enough time to play it.

Gonna do a quick response to ChiboSempai:

Great Sea: If you're in the water and touch the ship, its death at 0%. The catapult can throw you really far even at 0% and is quite unexpected. When the ship falling everyone is even floatier which gives certain characters advantages.
It's actually only if you touch the front of the ship (the bow). That's more your fault than anything. You shouldn't be swimming INTO the ship >_> Catapault comes out and gives about 1 or 2 full seconds to react before throwing. Ship falling takes hardly any time at all, and is a temporary advantage which is fine - just like the stage changes in Pokemon Stadium 1.

Stages I'm unsure about:

Frigate Orpheon (Neutral or Counterpick) - The only hazard is stage flipping which isn't bad at all, and you're given fair warning. Should it be neutral??
I was leaning towards neutral before too, but when the stage flips, one of the flips makes it so you can't grab onto the ledge. I think it's the flat one where you can't grab. The one with an indent can be grabbed. I'd go for counterpick for now.

Mario Circuit (Counterpick or Banned) - I don't know what to think about this one... anyone have any suggestions?
Keep it counter-pick. The karts follow a set pattern of appearing, position is always shown on the back screen, and don't kill at crazy low % like Port Town.

My picks (Potential being that they should start at counter-pick and move as necessary):

Neutral (6):
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

Potentally Neutral (3):
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Halberd

Counter-Pick (13)
Norfair
Pictochat
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Great Sea
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Onett (Melee)
Brinstar (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)

Potential Counter-Pick (7)
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Haenbow
Pokmon Stadium 2
Eldin Bridge
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Banned (14)
Rumble Falls
WarioWare
Skyworld
New Pork City
Summit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Port Town Aero Dive
Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
Flat Zone 2
75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Hyrule Temple (Melee)

Call me out on something and I'll try to defend =)

 

[Serris]

I'll never understand why people love Hanenbow. It makes me dizzy and I feel like I'm tripping on LSD every time I see it.

Also, has anyone else noticed that the F-Zero stages are always screwed when it comes to tournaments?

 

[Eten]

Skyworld. Deserves counterpick.

It has a temple like effect on teching, counterbalanced by the fact you can be knocked through any broken platform. Basically, if you break the platforms you can get your KOs. Works both ways. Should be fair and balanced, even if it means a lot of use of spikes.

 

[Serris]

Skyworld. Deserves counterpick.

It has a temple like effect on teching, counterbalanced by the fact you can be knocked through any broken platform. Basically, if you break the platforms you can get your KOs. Works both ways. Should be fair and balanced, even if it means a lot of use of spikes.

That's also exactly why it should be banned. Seriously. It gives characters with powerful spikes an edge over characters with meteor smashes.

 

[Firestorm88]

I'll never understand why people love Hanenbow. It makes me dizzy and I feel like I'm tripping on LSD every time I see it.

Also, has anyone else noticed that the F-Zero stages are always screwed when it comes to tournaments?

Play the game it's from and see how it goes =p

Mute City was not banned in Melee and was one of the more popular counter-picks.

Skyworld has a lot of issues with it imo. One of which is with tether recoveries (cannot happen on clouds), but the whole "Hyrule Temple" effect and the fact that whoever gets the middle controls the stage bit is also detrimental. I guess on further thinking it's a "potential counter-pick".

 

[Eten]

That's also exactly why it should be banned. Seriously. It gives characters with powerful spikes an edge over characters with meteor smashes.

Or conversely it makes those with powerful spikes relatively weaker on other stages. Definition of a counterpick or WHAT. Heck even Final Destination favors some characters while Battlefield favors others.

 

[Crom]

Frigate Orpheon should be banned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

That shouldn't be happening on any tournament legal stage.

 

[Eten]

Frigate Orpheon should be banned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

That shouldn't be happening on any tournament legal stage.

I disagree. There is a sound warning, and the stage rotates consistently. In effect, one can know it's possible to be caught like that, and even then, proper reaction can still lead to recovery. At that point it doesn't look that much different from a self destruct from a mistake like performing a lag-heavy aerial at a bad time off the stage.

 

[Mic_128]

Was plenty of warning, and if Snake had kept his head, he could have gotten out of that.

 

[Lovage 805]

Pokemon Stadium 1 as a neutral? Are you serious?
1. The edge
2. The windmill

Ban that soulja boy

 

[PityLord]

Frigate definetly shouldnt be banned cause of the movie. It has a 3 sec warning before it flips and is just a little harder for tether recoveries here due to one side not having a ledge. Counterpick.

And besides as I said earlier, tourneys should test stages first at a competetive level and then ban those wich are clearly deserving a ban. Not the other way around lol.

 

[fargokraft]

yeah- I agree with the testing first.
I'm considering using some of the weaker damage levels for testing now- in regards to counterpick.
:D '3

In regards to some things I test today-

"BAN PIRATE SHIP, IT GIVES BOWSER AND GANNON AN EDGE!"
I tested there forward Bs in an attempt to kill people in the water
(assuming they'd sink while gannon/bowser stayed a float)
that doesn't happen.
The water stops both heros,
and both float.
Even at high percentages...
the only way any of them die in this manner-
would be if they hit the front of the pirate ship.
But you can jump out of the way-
unless bowser was perfect at aiming you right next to it.
Gannon- not likely cuzz he goes straight down.
In any case, that requires some skill.
I'd like to see it happen on an abusive level before considering it.
(which is unlikely, because you can dodge Bowser's forward B)

"KING DEDEDE's CHAIN THROW IS IMBA"
HAHA!! yeah, that was awesome. XD
I could argue though- you shouldn't put yourself in that situation then!
who knows. I'll see how bad it gets at the tournaments.

"POKEMON STADIUM 1 SHOULD BE BANNED BCUZ OF THE WINDMILL!"
>_> I've never got stuck in that combo...
seriously... and now knowing that the windmill can be used that way-
I'd either set that combo up myself-
or avoid going near the thing...
its very easy to dodge...

I think that's everything I was interested in testing for myself. :D

 

[Mic_128]

Pokemon Stadium 1 as a neutral? Are you serious?
1. The edge
2. The windmill

Ban that soulja boy

The windmill isn't game breaking, and Battlefield had horrible edges but it was still neutral.