Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It appears that you are using ad block :'(
Hey, we get it. However this website is run by and for the community... and it needs ads in order to keep running.
Please disable your adblock on Smashboards, or go premium to hide all advertisements and this notice. Alternatively, this ad may have just failed to load. Woops!
"Several things which are rarely developed and probably haven't been seen often" could easily just be gimmicks that don't constitute a placement higher than those above him who may have more consistent options. I want Purpletuce to explain the impacts of these "new developments".
Many of the points are anecdotal and a result of match-up inexperience. Let Purpletuce isolate the good points on his own if he wants to make an accurate case (which he acts like he wants to do).
You're both just trying to foster more discussion, but the stronger the foundation of his original points, the more interest it will pique and the more seriously it will be taken.
For example, "I could scare some inexperienced players away using ___ shield trick" doesn't hold water for a higher tier list placement.
I feel like this should all be elementary knowledge.
Man I was starting to get worried that I'd never get to see the likes of Bones and other people discussing the semantics of relevance again.
Now that we're back, Mission freeiceclimbers can get underway. Look out Falcon we commin fo you
Puff: I never thought she was ever dumb enough to break above Sheik, and I think some better showings from players even and importantly leaving out Armada show her "dominance" is really more a result of matchups that are essentially just more even than they're let on to be.
That being said,
Top top four in whatever order
Very High Peach/Marth in whatever order I personally see Peach as better overall but that's not something that is worth making a fuss over
High Falcon, IC's, and Doc
Middle Pikachu, Samus, down to Ganon
Low Link, YL, Yoshi, DK
Very Low zelda game and watch whatever roy sure whatever
First one, nonsensical compared to now. The 2nd one really starts to take the form of the one we have now. Anyway, its by the 6th that characters are regulated to there general spots and its only minor variation in exact position that makes any difference between the list. Its pretty clear even back in '04 (apparently) that sheik, falco, fox, peach, jiggs, and marth yield better performance than mewtwo, kirby, bowser and pichu.
I see no reason to make another one. It tells us what we need to know in a good overview. Sheik, fox, falco are pretty superb while the links are pretty sub-par.
As others have pointed out, having an up-to-date list sends a message to people outside of the community who may be interested in getting into competitive melee. The latest tier list being from 2010 might give the impression that the tournament scene is inactive, where as a 2013 list indicates that we're still alive and kickin'.
As others have pointed out, having an up-to-date list sends a message to people outside of the community who may be interested in getting into competitive melee. The latest tier list being from 2010 might give the impression that the tournament scene is inactive, where as a 2013 list indicates that we're still alive and kickin'.
Current
S: Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Sheik
A: Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon
B: Ice Climbers
C: Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Samus
D: Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong
E: Link, Young Link
F: Zelda, Roy, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch
G: Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu
IMO
Jiggs -2
Pikachu +2
Mario +1
Young Link +1
Yoshi +3
-Jiggs is good, but we overreacted putting her 3rd
-Axe, proven not just a 1 time fluke
-mostly personal bias lol. Scorpadorp
-Young link has a couple good matchups. Having better movement than Link is pretty important I think.
-Yoshi players have at least shown there is potential there. +3 is a big jump, though, but I don't see what Mewtwo or Zelda or the like would have over a Yoshi at high level play.
You only have to convince the MBR that he should go up, anyways. So just talk to them (most of them are ABOVE average players, so that should help your cause).
If you or anyone else wants to actually discuss it, and for me to destroy any argument as to why hes even remotely close to the likes of mewtwo, roy and zelda then holla at me on twitter (@l3ff3n) or facebook.
Most people don't really want to, they are mostly going
"UGHHH NOOO THATS NOT IN LINE WITH PREVIOUS TIER LISTS AND LOOK AT THE RESULTS!"
every single move yoshi has is really good in some matchup.
Moves like his side b, down b and dair are just more situational than bad, in the cases they work they are incredible.
(down b is a combo finisher that kills at 90%, dair for 50% jab reset/gimping puff, side b to gain height when falco shoots lasers, increases his air mobility, has hitbox on frame one of landing, moves faster than falcons run)
even his airdodge, roll and spotdodge are among the best
seriously, just compare yoshis moveset like this:
roy: 1 useable smash
zelda: 1 solid (dsmash) 2 very gimmicky
mewtwo: 1 (dsmash, and its below average)
yoshi: 3 smashes that are all well above average
tilts+jabs
roy: 1 (dtilt)
zelda: 0
mewtwo: 2 (dtilt/utilt)
yoshi: 4, all top tier as goes for tilts/jabs
aerials:
roy: 5 well below average aerials
zelda : 2 good aerials
mewtwo: 5 well below average aerials
yoshi : everything except dair is incredibly good
recovery:
roy: awful
zelda:awful
mewtwo:great
yoshi: great
combos:
roy:ok on spacies, worst ingame on rest
zelda: nonexistant
mewtwo: see roy
yoshi: among the best ingame on every top tier
surviving/cc/getting comboed
roy:bottom tier
zelda:bottom tier
mewtwo:bottom tier
yoshi: best or second to peach
planking:
roy:worst ingame
zelda: ok at stalling
mewtwo: ok at stalling
yoshi: best ingame
shields:
roy: terrible
zelda: ok but bad oos options
mewtwo: bad
yoshi: different but easily the best shield ingame
killing power:
roy: terrible except for random fsmash
zelda: ok
mewtwo: below average
yoshi: well above average
gimps:
roy: nonexistant
zelda: see roy
mewtwo: see roy
yoshi:above average
movement:
roy: below average
zelda : lol
mewtwo: ok, has worst dash dance ingame, limited to wavedashing
yoshi: top 4(yoshi, fox, falcon and puff all excel at different types)
do i need to go on?
seriously, roy / zelda / mewtwo have like 3 good moves in total >_>
PLEASE contest me on this type of ranking in someway that makes yoshi even CLOSE to roy/zelda/mewtwo (which he is below)
I'm gonna avoid the rest of the post and focus on the fact that you said Yoshi has better movement than Marth
come on son
[I've found the arguments for Yoshi consistently convincing but I don't have enough experience to make a matchup spread so I tend to avoid ranking him lol]
Been busy, will develop my points soon. For now ill just say leffen knows his yoshi stuff more than I have, and has messed around with some things I haven't, but I'm sure it is all solid.
Leffen I think you've said it before, but where do you place NTSC Yoshi? Like what character is most similar in viability. I'd like to mentally take in this discussion with the assertion that Yoshi is around a certain area. I can definitely agree he has better tools than a lot of characters in the game, I'm just not experienced enough with him to take your statements and accurately place him myself.
Marth has faster top falling speed, but yoshi accelerates way faster (esp due to his dj causing him reach max speed instantly)
Yoshi can turn around in the air...
Yoshi can also choose to NOT turn, but still a instant, full aerial momentum reversal
Yoshi has perfect wavelands on any surface, has the best autocancel (you can DJ->autocancel from YS top platform and reach the ground with no lag while completely changing your aerial momentum)
Yoshi can also auto land on any surface (use any aerial/dj while close to landing) with no lag.
Yoshi has low DJ cancels, which makes him able to put out aerials whereever he wants, and with less lag than marth.
All marth has is a bit faster dash speed, which doesnt even matter against most top tiers.
@gea: if you rank fox #1, which essentially means you think of a "potential" human level instead of the current one, yoshi should be ~9-10th place, possibly higher
In pal he is top 7 in that kind of tier list.
In a "reality" tier list, where characters that no one has experience against and characters with underdeveloped metagame, he should still be ~12-14th, and quickly rise I develop his metagame (I find tons of new, useful stuff every single time I play the character still) ,since NO ONE has experience against him and hes the character that is the hardest to adjust to
Can throw eggs from ledge so safely that many players will resort to letting yoshi on (I scared Bladewise away): This is anecdotal, but it was just an example of how well these can be done, everyone has probably seen vman do it to people right on the ledge, but they might not know the numbers behind it. If done perfectly, only one frame is vulnerable. It also isn't too hard to throw them deep in the stage from the ledge, and throwing them lower gives them good sweeping angles. They also bounce on shields, creating more hitboxes. If an opponent isn't too aggressive Yoshi can throw a high egg which will eventually come down and hit them, as well as covering air options. After doing this, yoshi can shoot a low egg right at them, and this combination will either lock them in their shield for long enough that Yoshi can keep pressuring from the stage, or he can keep throwing eggs. They also poke really well, and if done quickly one hit can lead to another. You can also try to guess their techs with another egg. . . these things are dangerous.
Can shield drop without any shield stun, making his U-air so potent, I've scared Washington PR level players away from attacking it. Again, just me pointing out with an example a quality most people don't know. Once you're consistent with shield drops, the lack of shield stun becomes really good, and it can counter any attack outside of drills and grabs, which can be beaten by maneuvering around them. If I shield on a platform against a Fox for example, if he tries to hit me with anything but D-air, I'll U-air him, and sometimes I can platform cancel it and follow it up with a combo. You can also shield drop -> waveland on platform for positioning. A fox would then either have to come up there and grab (dangerous if you consider a shield drop is faster than a grab) or drill (the Yoshi shouldn't let him drill/ shield drop before he gets up there). You can't camp with it too well but it is hard to beat. (I'm tempted to try camping vs a falco, since the suck at grab followups and don't have anything I can't shield drop)
Rest of it is self-explanitory, and Leffen compared Yoshi to characters he would overtake nicely. These should be more like things to consider that you probably haven't previously.
Can juggle very well + huge damage means many players will take major damage instantly
His main spacing tool (B-air) can do 20% and combos well, so he can get really strong nearly-guaranteed damage even if he misses the follow up
Can parry out of tech chase(even grabs), making him one of the harder characters to tech chase.
After an aerial attack on shield, he can parry with varying timing to stop and counter attack
Combine above with his F-smash being safe on shield, jab cancels, a good poke (D-tilt/smash), and good grab follow ups on fastfallers for strong pressure
Instant ledgehog is super quick and can cover options well.
Also, Leffen was talking about Yoshi's planking, and I agree it may be the best in the game.
I think most people think of Yoshi's play as vman's yoshi, which is flashy and cool, but not as willing to do the 'dumb' stuff, like planking. Yoshi planking has so much potential.
To start, read above about edge eggs, they're (IMO) the part that makes the immenent threat of Yoshi planking. They only have one real weakness (outside of human error) and that is the one frame of vulnerability, which is only really dangerous against a close opponent. To counter this, Yoshi can use one of his three completely invincible ledgestalls:
I found these out from Leffen, but haven't implemented them frame perfectly, they're hard.
1. DownB ledgestall: good to vary timing, but not too impressive IMO.
2. DJ off ledge -> WL onto ledge: puts Yoshi in his opponents face, and could mix it up with waveland on. If his opponent is right on the ledge where Yoshi would be afraid of their attacks stopping his eggs, this mixup would give Yoshi stage control. Note: if Yoshi doesn't hold toward the stage enough, when trying to WL back he will SD, which is particularly easy to mess up on BF (because going to close gets you trapped.)
3. Aerial land -> DJ regrab This puts Yoshi standing on the ledge, without any lag. If he is afraid of an opponent, he can do any attack he sees fit. If he isn't ready to attack, he just goes back to his ledge, and keeps them scared of his potential to be there at any moment. This is also nice, because if you try to aerial land using N-air (which I use) you instead get an invincible N-air from ledge, which is also nice. (this isn't too hard to do, but I can't do it consistently enough to implement yet, but I haven't tried too hard, busy with learning more essential things. Also can get battlefielded)
I remember the first time I did Yoshi dittos with Engo, I thought it was going to be intense(We both had Pocket Yoshi's) No it was far from it, it was like a 6 minute match with micro combos and us playing uber safe.
How is the tier list supposed to be constructed? A lot of people talk about x or y reasons why a character should be good or what tools the character has but the tier list is defined as "a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results."
I guess that opens us up to two main lines of thought. We can either base it on past tournament results or base it on what could potentially happen if a character's "potential" is fulfilled. I'm more inclined to go with the first one since it is more easily proven which leads me to believe that Yoshi should move up slightly but any argument based on how good his moves appear to be isn't as meritful as pointing to results.
No way. Keep Young Link at low tier. How else am I gonna low tier money match people for really really easy money? Especially since he wrecks literally every low tier.
How is the tier list supposed to be constructed? A lot of people talk about x or y reasons why a character should be good or what tools the character has but the tier list is defined as "a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results."
I guess that opens us up to two main lines of thought. We can either base it on past tournament results or base it on what could potentially happen if a character's "potential" is fulfilled. I'm more inclined to go with the first one since it is more easily proven which leads me to believe that Yoshi should move up slightly but any argument based on how good his moves appear to be isn't as meritful as pointing to results.
I mostly agree with this post, but I think leffen's semi-objective analysis is also helpful. Top yoshi players have definitely proven themselves far past anything Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo players have ever accomplished. The piece by piece deconstruction sort of reinforces the actual results, it DOES make sense for Yoshi to be a bit higher than those three ****ty characters.
I also really like your definition of what the tier list should be. Sounds pretty much exactly right. Now we just need a new one.
I mostly agree with this post, but I think leffen's semi-objective analysis is also helpful. Top yoshi players have definitely proven themselves far past anything Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo players have ever accomplished. The piece by piece deconstruction sort of reinforces the actual results, it DOES make sense for Yoshi to be a bit higher than those three ****ty characters.
I also really like your definition of what the tier list should be. Sounds pretty much exactly right. Now we just need a new one.
eh... Mewtwo has some results too. Taj, Vman(Who also has a Roy lmfao) so I dunno. Yoshi, Mewtwo, Roy, Zelda in that order makes sense, though I kind of think Yoshi should be a tier higher(I could see Yoshi replacing Link to be honest)
Go Yoshi
