New SSBB Advanced Tech.'s (Discoveries, Theories, and Information.) STICKY REQUEST

[Mr.GAW]

EDIT:

Mods, I think this is something that really needs to be stickied. Any competitive players that are really serious about smash normally don't like to wander through all the crap in this room just to find out about new advance techniques and how they are being implemented. Please consider it.
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This thread is to be updated with more info on advance techniques indigenous to Brawl. The most recent updates will be found at the bottom, unless they are VERY closely related to something already posted.

I want this to be a collaborate effort. Please make any posts regarding these techniques and I will edit this post giving you credit for your findings. I can't fully explain these techniques on my own, folks.
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The list begins:

THE INK DROP
Discovered by: Inks
Elaborated on by: Gimpy

(Actually, Zauron was the first to find the ink drop occuring in a video, but no one really knew what it was until Inkslinger used it. Just clearing that up.)

Gimpy says:

"INK DROP.
THIS is the big one folks

You know that clip where yoshi just randomly falls over then rolls?

Well, thats the Ink drop. discovered by inks with applications soon to follow. Alright, you know how we had some ideas for a version of wavedashing, well this is one of them.

The ink drop opens up for a DASH pivot. You can dash past somebody and instantly turn around and grab them if you ink drop into a reverse grab. its beautiful. Dashing pivots is BIG.

Basically to ink drop you do a poorly timed dash dance, you dash far enough where your dash dance doesn't work, then you try to turn around, you should just fall over, thats an ink drop, but basically you can ink drop cancel with grabs and attack and what not to turn around and do moves, its quite seckzy.

This is all I can remember specifically for now, I'll get some character specific stuff up later.

INK DROP CLARIFICATION.

The important part is not the falling down, the important part is that you can CANCEL the falling down, so you can basically do anything out of a dash, reverse grabbing and smash attacks and stuff like that, or you can just fall on your face for some sort of trick (I dont know how that could really be useful) but a DASHING PIVOT is huge."

An explanation from Inkslinger:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121602

Gif's from Zauron showing Ink Dropping (or as he and some others call it "tripping")

The possiblities here are just about infinite, I can't wait to try stuff out. You would use it in context like "He just inkdropped a smash right in his face!" "Wow, did that noob just Ink Drop on accident?"

EDIT: It appears you can do this right out of a standstill. Is it perhaps performed by turning right before you hold left long enough?

REGARDING THE NAME:

Can we all please agree on this?:

If Ink Dropping isn't cancellable, we call it tripping and Ink Dropping never existed, but if it IS cancellable, we call in Ink Dropping- since Inkslinger IS the one who proposed the cancellable idea, and is the one who was the first to perform/anylise it and it's uses.

This name has also been floating around for a while, so it doesn't make sense to change it.

However, if it ISNT cancellable, it's ridiculous to call a standard move planned by the devs something relating to the person who first used it.

K?

_____________________________________________________________________

Somewhat related to the Ink Drop:

DASH BRAKE
Discovered by: Wyvern

Wyvern Says:

"I would like to propose a new unconfirmed technique! Well, it's not entirely new, since I speculate it's pretty much just a heightened understanding of all of this "ink drop" stuff, but it still might be worth mentioning. I'm tentatively calling it the "dash brake" (or maybe just "braking")

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26689.html

At 1:35, Mario dashes at Kirby at full speed, stops dead in his tracks, and then f-smashes. Combined with what I've heard about this "ink drop" thing from Gimpy's thread, I think I've got the basic idea of what this probably is. In Melee, if you tried to turn around while dashing, you would just start dashing in the other direction after a reasonably long turning sequence. In Brawl, I'm thinking that maybe instead of that, smashing the control stick in the opposite direction will cause the character to screech to a halt, ending the dash much earlier than normal traction and momentum would allow. If you accidently hold it too long, you trip (and that's the "ink drop")."

(Some people think this example of Mario halting is simply canceling the dash with a crouch, like in melee. )

My thoughts on Ink Drop and Dash Braking:

HUGGING
Discovered by: HugS
Elaborated on by: Gimpy

Gimpy Says:

"Basically, you can just walk off and grab the ledge, or you can dash off and grab the ledge right away, or you can roll and grab the ledge, or you can dash sheild slide then grab the ledge.
You just walk off/slide/whatever off and then hold towards the stage, and you grab on right away. The applications are many, and it is very useful for edgeguarding/hogging. "[/COLOR]

So basically edghogging, but different mechanics for it. The uses for this are obvious.
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EDIT: Swimming is in game. Any thoughts on what advance techniques might result of this?

Remember Great Bay in Melee, how everyone sank like bricks?
Remember how water had no effect on characters?

WELL

At around 0:36, watch Pikachu on the left side of the stage.

http://eforall.gamepro.com/player.cfm?vId=116940


I SO FREAKIN' CALLED IT!!!

Magic says:

"he interesting thing about swimming is that moves like Ike's Aether, Bowser's Bowser Bomb, etc, kill you if you do it in the water. So it seems there is a floor at the bottom..perhaps you can be spiked into it."

Just a theory to work off of.
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Also:

It appears that Metaknight may be able to pull off a slightly more difficult wavedash- but this has not been confirmed our reported on by E for All goers.

ShortFuse says:

"There are a few videos where MetaKnight glides very closely to the ground. As he hits the ground, he is able to WaveLand. If the glide used quickly at low altitudes via DJC (Double Jump-Cancelled) like with Peach, it would work just like a WaveDash. Of course, Double Jump Cancelling would have to be confirmed first. "

This would most likely apply to all gliders, correct? But what is the horizontal gain to vertical loss ratio of gliding? We know that you can't change directions while gliding. Is this useful? Thoughts and comments are appreciated.
_____________________________________________________________________

Something else that's new and interesting, Ban Heim found this:

I just noticed something in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8PqbN2WM7M

At around 1:18-1:19, Sonic appears to do his aerial down kick (not sure if it's down A or down B), but then before he starts to move down after sticking his foot out, he seems to cancel it and do it again. Anyone know what that is? It kind of looks like he jumped after doing it (it shows the little jumping effect under his feet) but he does it from right where he first executed the move. It would be pretty useful for some mindgames and whatnot. It's like a fake fall or a d-air cancel or something.

Anyone know what it is?

If it's something useful, then I christen it fake fall or fall cancel or d-air cancel...or something that sounds cool and useful.

Me and Petre think this may simply be a glitch that happened since this is the demo. If not, it's uses are pretty obvious. Halting in the air? AWESOME. You could maybe get someone to spot dodge on your feint and then drill them in the face. Cancelling aerials, halting in place and being to use the aerial again just sounds too good to be true.
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In the video you will notice Bowser being hit off the stage and practically canceling his momentum using a Fair.

This can be used for recovery and crazy DI. I have no idea if someone has already brought this up, but I thought it was interesting so I'm posting it here =]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=47p2cRGqOrQ

In this video you notice Mario stopping his momentum while being hit off the stage several times with Fair and different aerials.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26689.html

It seems like it will be a very important thing to learn when brawl comes out. Since it doesn't have a name we can just call it (Momentum Canceling)

First post of another thread. I happen to think that this is just regular DI, which has been made more significant since melee- and that the characters are just using their Fairs to recover. The fact that developers have been using this consistantly is what makes me start to doubt myself.
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DISCUSSION ON POSSIBLE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CRAWLING AND THE INKDROP:

Rocket Darkness:
Now I'm starting to wonder whether the technique being called "trips" (Ink Drop) are actually directional dives. We know from the Nintendo World movie that Snake can go into a dive and then land in the crawling position. Perhaps what happens in the Yoshi and Mario Trip .gifs is what happens when you dive with a character that is incapable of crawling?

GAW:
You propose an interesting theory, but don't you think Gimpy and HugS and Ink would've noticed that?

Zauron:
I was actually thinking the same thing RocketDarkness. But then someone mentioned crawling with, I think Pikachu?, and they didn't say anything about doing a dive into it first. And another player mentioned that Mario could NOT crawl, but you'd think they would have mentioned that when he tried to crawl he did a Trip instead.

Maybe they just didn't think to note that, I don't know, because otherwise it does seem a Trip leads into a Crawl, but only for some characters, and the others just land on their butts instead of in a crawling position when they Trip, and then all they can do is roll back to their feet.

GAW:
This would mean crawling would be cancelable if the ink drop actually is, correct?

LevesqueIsKing:
Think about it. Why would Sakurai implement the ink drop? He had a reason for changing air dodging and other similar changes, but this just doesn't make sense. No one was spamming...changing directions.

Now, if you watch the trailer in which Snake crawls (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/movies/movie02.html (also seen in the "Snake Joins the Brawl!" video)) he kind of does a flip/cartwheel and then falls down into the crawling position. If you watch the common gif of Yoshi performing an ink drop, he does a similar flip/cartwheel before he falls. My proposal is that you are able to either go into a crawl after that flip, or you can choose to just roll out of it, back into a standing position.

I was not at E4A and thus I have little information about the Ink Drop. I could be missing a piece to the puzzle but I seriously think that this makes sense. The reason no one could crawl in the demo was because Sakurai took it out of the demo, and thus, the only thing to do was fall (ink drop) or cancel it.

Rocket Darkness:
Well, it'd definitely make sense for characters to be able to crawl without diving first. It's possible diving may be some input that hasn't completely been revealed, or perhaps not even fully implemented into the demo yet. Diving would be a neat addition, since it's provide the quick-dodge usage of wavedashing, with the potential penalty of ending up on your butt. Perhaps there's a further button input required to quickly recover or go into a crouch.

At this point, I'm very suspicious of what isn't possible from the demo. I'm getting the vibe that certain gameplay elements have been conveniently removed to keep us in the dark.

GAW:
Hmm, assuming this is all true (which is a large assumption) inkdropping is going to be a very key element to the metagame.
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$ SLIDE
Discovered by: Bob$
Elaborated on by: Gimpy

Gimpy says:

:The “$ Slide” aka the Waveland – Yes, wavelanding appears to be back (at least in the demo). We called it the money slide because bob$ was the first person to be able to apply it consistently and helped us to actually figure out how to do it. It is NOT done with the airdodge in any way whatsoever. This could EASILY be removed before the actual release of the game, but it’s still in for now. To do the $ slide you have to be in the air (obviously) and do a move that pulls your character in one direction. The best example was Mario’s back air, but it can also be done with his up air (and just to give more examples, bowser’s back air, several of peach’s airials, etc etc). If you do moves like these while you are close to the ground it pulls your character over very quickly and does basically the exact same thing a waveland does in melee. We know that it slides you along the ground, but as far as applications goes that’s up to you guys to discover. If you l cancel the aerial by fast falling first then you do the move it doesn’t even come out and you just go sliding over.

On a side note (something we didn’t really have time to experiment with) it seems like peach would legitimately be able to wavedash back and forth because of this technique combined with the shortened height of float canceling, which means that peach (or somebody else with a double jump cancel, if other characters can do it) will be able to wavedash back and forth quickly."

Cool. This combined with the new form of L-Cancelling will be awesome.
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Discuss, propose, elaborate, and suggest. This thread is welcoming all thoughts and opinions.

 

[omfgomfg]

Ah, yes, we should be seeing more of these in the future.

 

[red stone]

i believe trip canceling is a better term.

 

[Mr.GAW]

I will leave it as is until Wyvern- the one who proposed the name- agrees.

 

[red stone]

oh how about BLGing (backwards ledge grab). also known as hugging. i don't like the term hugging though

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi can already do what u call "edge hugging". US yoshis call it the instant edgehog.

 

[Keige]

Edge hugging is for n00bs! Real men let people return so they can ink drop to fsmash.

 

[Crispy4001]

Anyone think that the DASH BRAKE could be part of an ink drop?


I might just be confused. When you trip in an ink drop do you continue in the direction where your momentum was headed, or do you turn around and tumble?


(suppose it might not matter, because you could change directions with the C-stick)

 

[Mr.GAW]

An Ink Drop happens when you attempt a dash-dance, but turn the opposite direction too late, and than continue to go that opposite direction until you fall down.

I believe a Dash Brake is very similar, in that you are dashing for longer than you can turn and still dashdance, but rather than holding the opposite direction, you tap it very quickly.

At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[joenopride]

This topic really makes me feel better about losing some of the advanced techniques, just two days of play and we have some new ones to use!

 

[.Yoshi]

"Ink drop" sounds like something Bloopers and squids do when they go to the bathroom....

Can't we name techs after what they do?
For example, "wobbling" really isn't wobbling...it's more like an infi-tilt grab....

 

[Zauron]

I posted this in the other advanced tactics thread...

Wouldn't these techniques mean...Wavedashing is sort of in anyway? By virtue of the fact that everything it gave you can now be done in a different way?

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

1) Edge hogging by Wavedashing back off the edge of a ledge - Now you can just run off and tap back toward the stage to do the same thing.

2) Wavedash back then attack - First, some characters have a back roll so fast and lag-free that its pretty much the same as a Wavedash back. Secondly, you could do an actual, normal Dash backwards, then do a Dash Pivot Cancel to turn and attack in the direction you were originally facing. This accomplishes the same thing that a Wavedash back does, and is even more controllable because you can pivot at any time and move at a rate not dependant on your sliding friction. You can also Dash Dance into a Dash Brake to accomplish much the same thing.

3) Wavedash forward into an attack - Now you can Dash forward, then do a "Dash Brake" to stop on a dime and do your attack. The same thing that Wavedashing forward and attack would do.

4) Psych out opponent by quickly Wavedashing back and forth so they do not know when you will actually attack - This can be done just as easily with Dash Dancing, which is still in.

5) Slide toward or away when landing (Wavelanding) for spacing - Seems characters now naturally tend to slide in the direction they were moving when landing anyway, so you can almost Waveland by just pressing the direction you want to slide before you land and not have to press L/R at all. You can possibly even slide further by doing an air attack just before landing, as the Mario BAir clip we thought was a Waveland showed.

So, am I missing anything? Is there anything Wavedashing could do that you couldn't now accomplish with Dash Dancing, Dash Braking, and Dash Pivot Cancelling? Have we in fact not lost anything, but just gained alternate ways to do it that look more natural, is easier to do, and is possibly entirely intended to be used this way by the devs (judging from the fact that the Kirby/Mario footage showing off the Dash Brake was prerecorded footage from Nintendo)?

It seems everything lost is also something gained in its place, like losing directional dodging but gaining freedom to do things after the air-dodge is over. And losing L-cancelling but gaining reduced lag on most air attacks doesn't take away any strategy or tactics whatsoever (since there was no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack if you could, there was no strategy about when and where you should use it, you should always do it if you can, thus it wasn't really part of the metagame at all, it was just a straight-up technical skill). Now it just saves you a button press when SHFFL'ing. And now, losing Wavedashing but gaining the Tumble techniques which can take its place. Plus a natural tendency to slide when landing taking the place of Wavelanding.

 

[Goldkirby]

The dash brake just looks like dash canceling, since mario slides a little before f-smashing.

 

[Chiroz]

I posted this in the other advanced tactics thread...

Wouldn't these techniques mean...Wavedashing is sort of in anyway? By virtue of the fact that everything it gave you can now be done in a different way?

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

1) Edge hogging by Wavedashing back off the edge of a ledge - Now you can just run off and tap back toward the stage to do the same thing.

2) Wavedash back then attack - First, some characters have a back roll so fast and lag-free that its pretty much the same as a Wavedash back. Secondly, you could do an actual, normal Dash backwards, then do a Dash Pivot Cancel to turn and attack in the direction you were originally facing. This accomplishes the same thing that a Wavedash back does, and is even more controllable because you can pivot at any time and move at a rate not dependant on your sliding friction. You can also Dash Dance into a Dash Brake to accomplish much the same thing.

3) Wavedash forward into an attack - Now you can Dash forward, then do a "Dash Brake" to stop on a dime and do your attack. The same thing that Wavedashing forward and attack would do.

4) Psych out opponent by quickly Wavedashing back and forth so they do not know when you will actually attack - This can be done just as easily with Dash Dancing, which is still in.

5) Slide toward or away when landing (Wavelanding) for spacing - Seems characters now naturally tend to slide in the direction they were moving when landing anyway, so you can almost Waveland by just pressing the direction you want to slide before you land and not have to press L/R at all. You can possibly even slide further by doing an air attack just before landing, as the Mario BAir clip we thought was a Waveland showed.

So, am I missing anything? Is there anything Wavedashing could do that you couldn't now accomplish with Dash Dancing, Dash Braking, and Dash Pivot Cancelling? Have we in fact not lost anything, but just gained alternate ways to do it that look more natural, is easier to do, and is possibly entirely intended to be used this way by the devs (judging from the fact that the Kirby/Mario footage showing off the Dash Brake was prerecorded footage from Nintendo)?

It seems everything lost is also something gained in its place, like losing directional dodging but gaining freedom to do things after the air-dodge is over. And losing L-cancelling but gaining reduced lag on most air attacks doesn't take away any strategy or tactics whatsoever (since there was no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack if you could, there was no strategy about when and where you should use it, you should always do it if you can, thus it wasn't really part of the metagame at all, it was just a straight-up technical skill). Now it just saves you a button press when SHFFL'ing. And now, losing Wavedashing but gaining the Tumble techniques which can take its place. Plus a natural tendency to slide when landing taking the place of Wavelanding.

I like you .

This is only the 2nd day of the demo and alredy Brawl is catching up to Melee's depth, to all those who didn't believe, there you have it.



PS: To the above poster, He seems to stop all of a sudden and not slide foward, he even makes a small white cloud of dust on BOTH sides of his feet.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I believe Ink Dropping is when you are running and try to turn, instead of going into a slow turning animation you fall over, then do some cartwheel thing. Apparently that can be cancelled with any move, which gives you something functionally identical to a pivot but can be do after the initial dash animation.

Dash braking (judging by the video) is some way to cancel your running animation without sliding afterwards. Maybe I'm missing something, but these two don't seem related.


Zauron: That's some of it, but there were nearly infinite things that wavedashing could do. It balanced out most characters' running speeds and gave characters like Luigi with awful running and terrible traction a chance to fight on the ground. Wavelanding contributes to aerial combos, and you can platform waveland so you can move around on platforms without enduring extra frames of landing lag.

You could waveland from the edge (ledgedash) which was one of the best ways to get up. You could WD out of your shield, which is one of its greatest uses because normally you have no mobility directly from shielding.

The mindgames that wavedashing is used for can be recreated with other techniques. The general purpose, however, (basically it was a ground-mobile jump) probably can't.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

There is also swimming. It was shown in another thread.

 

[Ban Heim]

I just noticed something in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8PqbN2WM7M

At around 1:18-1:19, Sonic appears to do his aerial down kick (not sure if it's down A or down B), but then before he starts to move down after sticking his foot out, he seems to cancel it and do it again. Anyone know what that is? It kind of looks like he jumped after doing it (it shows the little jumping effect under his feet) but he does it from right where he first executed the move. It would be pretty useful for some mindgames and whatnot. It's like a fake fall or a d-air cancel or something.

Anyone know what it is?

If it's something useful, then I christen it fake fall or fall cancel or d-air cancel...or something that sounds cool and useful.

 

[petre]

umm...when i saw that clip of mario 'dash brake'-ing to fsmash kirby, it just looked like he cancelled his run with a crouch, then fsmashed. just like you can do in melee.

maybe theres something im missing?

I just noticed something in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8PqbN2WM7M

At around 1:18-1:19, Sonic appears to do his aerial down kick (not sure if it's down A or down B), but then before he starts to move down after sticking his foot out, he seems to cancel it and do it again. Anyone know what that is? It kind of looks like he jumped after doing it (it shows the little jumping effect under his feet) but he does it from right where he first executed the move. It would be pretty useful for some mindgames and whatnot. It's like a fake fall or a d-air cancel or something. (the player would have been mashing down+a the whole time sonic was in the air, most likely.)

Anyone know what it is?

If it's something useful, then I christen it fake fall or fall cancel or d-air cancel...or something that sounds cool and useful.

you know, i would almost call glitch on that one. sonic gets hit by something electric (probably pikachu) before he gets up there, and the game could have glitched and started the animation for the attack while sonic was supposed to still be in hitstun. then the hitstun ends, and he does the attack again, only this time it actually executes because he's no longer in hitstun.

just a theory.

 

[RazeveX]

I posted this in the other advanced tactics thread...

Wouldn't these techniques mean...Wavedashing is sort of in anyway? By virtue of the fact that everything it gave you can now be done in a different way?

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

1) Edge hogging by Wavedashing back off the edge of a ledge - Now you can just run off and tap back toward the stage to do the same thing.

2) Wavedash back then attack - First, some characters have a back roll so fast and lag-free that its pretty much the same as a Wavedash back. Secondly, you could do an actual, normal Dash backwards, then do a Dash Pivot Cancel to turn and attack in the direction you were originally facing. This accomplishes the same thing that a Wavedash back does, and is even more controllable because you can pivot at any time and move at a rate not dependant on your sliding friction. You can also Dash Dance into a Dash Brake to accomplish much the same thing.

3) Wavedash forward into an attack - Now you can Dash forward, then do a "Dash Brake" to stop on a dime and do your attack. The same thing that Wavedashing forward and attack would do.

4) Psych out opponent by quickly Wavedashing back and forth so they do not know when you will actually attack - This can be done just as easily with Dash Dancing, which is still in.

5) Slide toward or away when landing (Wavelanding) for spacing - Seems characters now naturally tend to slide in the direction they were moving when landing anyway, so you can almost Waveland by just pressing the direction you want to slide before you land and not have to press L/R at all. You can possibly even slide further by doing an air attack just before landing, as the Mario BAir clip we thought was a Waveland showed.

So, am I missing anything? Is there anything Wavedashing could do that you couldn't now accomplish with Dash Dancing, Dash Braking, and Dash Pivot Cancelling? Have we in fact not lost anything, but just gained alternate ways to do it that look more natural, is easier to do, and is possibly entirely intended to be used this way by the devs (judging from the fact that the Kirby/Mario footage showing off the Dash Brake was prerecorded footage from Nintendo)?

It seems everything lost is also something gained in its place, like losing directional dodging but gaining freedom to do things after the air-dodge is over. And losing L-cancelling but gaining reduced lag on most air attacks doesn't take away any strategy or tactics whatsoever (since there was no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack if you could, there was no strategy about when and where you should use it, you should always do it if you can, thus it wasn't really part of the metagame at all, it was just a straight-up technical skill). Now it just saves you a button press when SHFFL'ing. And now, losing Wavedashing but gaining the Tumble techniques which can take its place. Plus a natural tendency to slide when landing taking the place of Wavelanding.

Dude! WHAT ABOUT POOR LUIGI?!!!??!?!??!?!?!?!

 

[6th Sense]

This is like Gimpy's thread quoted >.<

 

[Ban Heim]

you know, i would almost call glitch on that one. sonic gets hit by something electric (probably pikachu) before he gets up there, and the game could have glitched and started the animation for the attack while sonic was supposed to still be in hitstun. then the hitstun ends, and he does the attack again, only this time it actually executes because he's no longer in hitstun.

just a theory.

I think you may be right. Hopefully that's not the case and Sonic is capable of jumping a split second after doing his down + A. It'd be pretty useful imo.

 

[UltimateShinigami]

If it's something useful, then I christen it fake fall or fall cancel or d-air cancel...or something that sounds cool and useful.

how bout the wronski feint? :D

 

[Ban Heim]

how bout the wronski feint? :D

That sounds cool and useful.

Feint at least. I'm surprised I didn't think of that word.

 

[Joshua368]

Ink Drop could use a better name.

 

[clowsui]

...wtf wronski feint is from harry potter, can't take that :/
copyright laws, man

 

[Ban Heim]

Ink Drop could use a better name.

I like Ink Drop. Sounds unique and Brawl specific. All of these other names I've heard (anything with dash in it) sound like they could be techniques from Melee. Ink Drop just sounds original. Plus it gives credit to the person who discovered it, kinda like the Gräfenberg spot.

Anyone have anything to say about that d-air feint? I'd really like to know if it's something useful or just a glitch like petre said.

 

[ShortFuse]

I don't see the point to this thread. No offense. I know what you're saying that the other thread is based on Melee, but it does include New Tactics as well.
We had the Ink Drop but didn't know what it was or what it did. That GIF of Yoshi tumbling was put on the other thread for discussion days. There's also the Fast Jump theory. That's the same thread where we figured out Momentum Air-Dodge and the removal of directional air-dodge + wavedash. I expect the main post to change as we get closer to Brawl. Again, just because Melee information is there doesn't mean we're not going add new things. We spend a whole day over Diddy Kong's forward B in mid-air, what looked like a wallkick after his Up+b.
Then there's also the fact Mario's bAir allows you to somewhat waveland on the ground.

You can't say there's no new information and it's just checking if melee stuff is in. Making two threads with the same purpose is counterproductive and will cause confusion as to where to get information. What's new theories in this thread that may arise maybe be easily disproven with information with the other (and vice versa)

 

[Team Giza]

To those who don't think ink drop is a good name. I must say I disagree. I love using it already. "inkdrop a u-tilt", "inkdropping grabs". Too cool

 

[Mr.GAW]

umm...when i saw that clip of mario 'dash brake'-ing to fsmash kirby, it just looked like he cancelled his run with a crouch, then fsmashed. just like you can do in melee.

maybe theres something im missing?

I don't see any signal of a crouch...

you know, i would almost call glitch on that one. sonic gets hit by something electric (probably pikachu) before he gets up there, and the game could have glitched and started the animation for the attack while sonic was supposed to still be in hitstun. then the hitstun ends, and he does the attack again, only this time it actually executes because he's no longer in hitstun.

just a theory.

I agree with you there.

I don't see the point to this thread. No offense. I know what you're saying that the other thread is based on Melee, but it does include New Tactics as well.
We had the Ink Drop but didn't know what it was or what it did. That GIF of Yoshi tumbling was put on the other thread for discussion days. There's also the Fast Jump theory. That's the same thread where we figured out Momentum Air-Dodge and the removal of directional air-dodge + wavedash. I expect the main post to change as we get closer to Brawl. Again, just because Melee information is there doesn't mean we're not going add new things. We spend a whole day over Diddy Kong's forward B in mid-air, what looked like a wallkick after his Up+b.
Then there's also the fact Mario's bAir allows you to somewhat waveland on the ground.

You can't say there's no new information and it's just checking if melee stuff is in. Making two threads with the same purpose is counterproductive and will cause confusion as to where to get information. What's new theories in this thread that may arise maybe be easily disproven with information with the other (and vice versa)

Well, your thread is certainly useful for checking up on things, but nothing about it really articulates what's going on. It's really just statements and then proof. You aren't really looking into new things and explaining what may or may not be happening. The purpose of this thread is for people to thouroghly understand what existing techniques are, and what happens during them.

Also, your thread is more about addressing the physics of the game and understanding the engine than it is to understand how these changes from melee can be manipulated to form new techniques. Fast Jumping and Diddy Kong's forward B are examples of this.

I see a significant difference in the threads, and the purpose of yours and mine are very different.

This thread's purpose is to discover new techniques through game-footage and address these techniques and their usefulness. It's more of a community effort, if you will.

It seems to me your thread is more of you looking around and identifing what is in the game and what is not and than posting a video.

I was motivated to create this thread because of the lack of discussion and acknowledgement of new ideas and techniques in Brawl.

 

[ShortFuse]

Well, your thread is certainly useful for checking up on things, but nothing about it really articulates what's going on. It's really just statements and then proof. You aren't really looking into new things and explaining what may or may not be happening. The purpose of this thread is for people to thouroghly understand what existing techniques are, and what happens during them.

Also, your thread is more about addressing the physics of the game and understanding the engine than it is to understand how these changes from melee can be manipulated to form new techniques. Fast Jumping and Diddy Kong's forward B are examples of this.

I see a huge difference in the threads, and the purpose of yours and mine are very different.

Okay. I'm not going to fight you. I disagree with what you're saying on some points but we both can't use the same word. I'm guessing you're not stressing techniques or single moves. You're stressing how to implement those techniques into tactics? We need a thesaurus. I will say it will confuse people because we both use the word "Techniques". If i understand how you're classifying.

My thread = Short Hop, Fast Fall, L-Cancel
Your thread = Shuffling: Short Hop + Fast Fall + L-Cancel

My thread = fAir, dAir
Your thread = Ken Combo: fAir + fAir + dAir

Like that? Either way, it's too confusing to call them both "advanced techniques". Is SHFFL a tactic or technique? Should I make mine "Advances Moves" idk. i think we should reach an agreement for benefit of both our threads.

Take a look at what I have for MetaKnight WaveDash. I think that is better suited in this thread. You can credit it as my theory.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

The Ink Drop is very intriguing. I'd like to elaborate on it and see if it's only limited to Yoshi.

 

[GTR!]

This topic really makes me feel better about losing some of the advanced techniques, just two days of play and we have some new ones to use!

Same here i mean all these things are cool i cant wait for brawl even more now

i always had faith in the game i was just leaning more toward M2K by really wanting WD ing back in but this seams great as well b ut just one quuick question i think i pretty much get the understanding of "ink dropping" as well as the "dash break" (pretty much the same as how Mr. GAW explained it) but can someone eleborate on what pivot canceling is?

 

[Mr.GAW]

Okay. I'm not going to fight you. I disagree with what you're saying on some points but we both can't use the same word. I'm guessing you're not stressing techniques or single moves. You're stressing how to implement those techniques into tactics? We need a thesaurus. I will say it will confuse people because we both use the word "Techniques". If i understand how you're classifying.

My thread = Short Hop, Fast Fall, L-Cancel
Your thread = Shuffling: Short Hop + Fast Fall + L-Cancel

My thread = fAir, dAir
Your thread = Ken Combo: fAir + fAir + dAir

Like that? Either way, it's too confusing to call them both "advanced techniques". Is SHFFL a tactic or technique? Should I make mine "Advances Moves" idk. i think we should reach an agreement for benefit of both our threads.

Take a look at what I have for MetaKnight WaveDash. I think that is better suited in this thread. You can credit it as my theory.

Yes. Thank you for understanding. That was exactly my point. Hmm, as for the title's, I think all of the things addressed in my thread and yours are considered advance techniques, but the things here, just sort of, look into things more. At least, I hope people start to identify uses of these things and propose new ideas.

I dunno, I think the titles can stay the same. Hopefully people will just realize the differences once they click.

 

[Sirami]

Does anybody know how to do an insta ink drop yet? I've seen the computer do it from standing still in several different vids.

Also, a vid of an ink drop actually being canceled into another move would be sweet.

 

[Nietendodude]

Does anyone have that swiming one with Pikacu on youtube?

 

[Mr.GAW]

It's in the first post.

 

[Zek]

umm...when i saw that clip of mario 'dash brake'-ing to fsmash kirby, it just looked like he cancelled his run with a crouch, then fsmashed. just like you can do in melee.

I don't think so. Just look at him, there's not a single frame of a crouch there. He was skidding and cancelled it directly with a smash attack. I think Wyvern brings up a good point - it's possible that falling down is just what happens when you skid for too long, and you can cancel with an attack at any time after cancelling your dash, be it while skidding or while falling. In which case they would basically be the same technique.

Maybe this is also what Mario was doing here?

 

[red stone]

I posted this in the other advanced tactics thread...

Wouldn't these techniques mean...Wavedashing is sort of in anyway? By virtue of the fact that everything it gave you can now be done in a different way?

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

1) Edge hogging by Wavedashing back off the edge of a ledge - Now you can just run off and tap back toward the stage to do the same thing.

2) Wavedash back then attack - First, some characters have a back roll so fast and lag-free that its pretty much the same as a Wavedash back. Secondly, you could do an actual, normal Dash backwards, then do a Dash Pivot Cancel to turn and attack in the direction you were originally facing. This accomplishes the same thing that a Wavedash back does, and is even more controllable because you can pivot at any time and move at a rate not dependant on your sliding friction. You can also Dash Dance into a Dash Brake to accomplish much the same thing.

3) Wavedash forward into an attack - Now you can Dash forward, then do a "Dash Brake" to stop on a dime and do your attack. The same thing that Wavedashing forward and attack would do.

4) Psych out opponent by quickly Wavedashing back and forth so they do not know when you will actually attack - This can be done just as easily with Dash Dancing, which is still in.

5) Slide toward or away when landing (Wavelanding) for spacing - Seems characters now naturally tend to slide in the direction they were moving when landing anyway, so you can almost Waveland by just pressing the direction you want to slide before you land and not have to press L/R at all. You can possibly even slide further by doing an air attack just before landing, as the Mario BAir clip we thought was a Waveland showed.

So, am I missing anything? Is there anything Wavedashing could do that you couldn't now accomplish with Dash Dancing, Dash Braking, and Dash Pivot Cancelling? Have we in fact not lost anything, but just gained alternate ways to do it that look more natural, is easier to do, and is possibly entirely intended to be used this way by the devs (judging from the fact that the Kirby/Mario footage showing off the Dash Brake was prerecorded footage from Nintendo)?

It seems everything lost is also something gained in its place, like losing directional dodging but gaining freedom to do things after the air-dodge is over. And losing L-cancelling but gaining reduced lag on most air attacks doesn't take away any strategy or tactics whatsoever (since there was no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack if you could, there was no strategy about when and where you should use it, you should always do it if you can, thus it wasn't really part of the metagame at all, it was just a straight-up technical skill). Now it just saves you a button press when SHFFL'ing. And now, losing Wavedashing but gaining the Tumble techniques which can take its place. Plus a natural tendency to slide when landing taking the place of Wavelanding.

you can't ledge dash, you can't aerial to wavedash combo, you can't triangle jump, you can't be fast with luigi. don't think a few new techs can replace wavedashing. WDIng was the holy grail of smash bros

 

[Mr.GAW]

Zek, yes, I think what is in that pic is the same thing.

 

[Foxman15]

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

Ummm.... You know nothing about wavedashing.