New SSBB Advanced Tech.'s (Discoveries, Theories, and Information.) STICKY REQUEST

[Eggm]

Also doesn't replace the platform trix and mind games given by wavelanding on off platforms to attacks and stuff, but seems interesting.

 

[Sirami]

Quick thought, can we start calling that Ink Drop thing a tumble?

And when people cancel it, can we call it a tumble cancel?

 

[ShortFuse]

Well, Zauron does main Luigi...

btw, Eggm, I know this is off topic, what happened to Bass? He's no longer at NJIT right? I need some good competition and miss playing his Falco.

 

[Mr.GAW]

Nope. When somebody discover's something- they name it. Unless it's COMPLETELY ludicrous, or they agree to change the name.

 

[Sirami]

Nope. When somebody discover's something- they name it. Unless it's COMPLETELY ludicrous, or they agree to change the name.

I just kind of think that "Ink Drop" sounds really odd, and it's gonna make me feel wierd using the word "Ink Drop" when I'm introducing new players to advanced techniques.

Seriously, it might make some people take the game less seriously.

And besides that, tumble and tumble cancel are much more descriptive as to what's actually going on.

Also, Ink didn't find it. Zauron, from GameFaqs did. He made that Yoshi gif way before Ink even touched SSBB.

So, shouldn't we name it after Zauron, if anything? Z-Drop?

I'd rather stick with Tumble and Tumble Cancel (Tumb and TC)

 

[ShortFuse]

Ink Drop discussion thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121516

I got tired of watching threads stray off topic

 

[GTR!]

are pivot cacnel and and ink drop the same?

 

[Mr.GAW]

Zauron may have "found it" but inks DISCOVERD it. The name doesn't matter anyway, that's not what this thread is about. Stay on topic.

 

[jwj442]

Could someone please tell me if you can still C-stick in the air without it affecting your direction? I'm a bit worried about that with the reported C-stick changes.

 

[Zauron]

Ummm.... You know nothing about wavedashing.

Uh, yeah I do. I main Luigi for crying out loud, and I have been in the tourney and competitive Smash scene for years, placing high in several tournaments. Of course I use Wavedashing ALL the time, in addition to every other advanced technique Luigi has access to. But you are right, I got caught up in all this Brawl talk and completely spaced some of the other uses for Wavedashing. Doh!

I guess what I was getting at is that, Sakurai was probably aware of Wavedashing and saw people liked it, but he wasn't happy with how you had to do it (Smash was built around the concept of moves being easy to do and never requiring more than 1 direction and 1 button, but taking a long time to master all the nuances of every move).

I think when he decided to change dodging and in the process remove Wavedashing, that he tried to put in things to give people at least some of the manuevering it gave with the things I mentioned in my post, but making it easier to do and more in tune with the Smash design philosophy. Obviously, he couldn't 100% duplicate what Wavedashing could do without just leaving the move in as-is, but my point is that many of the common uses of Wavedashing now have at least some alternative way of doing them. This shows that Sakurai does pay attention to the pro scene and has purposefully put in things to help us maintain the hidden depth of gameplay Smash is known for.

Could someone please tell me if you can still C-stick in the air without it affecting your direction? I'm a bit worried about that with the reported C-stick changes.

Me too man! I keep asking about this but no one that's played the demo has given me any answers .

 

[Zek]

Could someone please tell me if you can still C-stick in the air without it affecting your direction? I'm a bit worried about that with the reported C-stick changes.

Yes, you can.

 

[Zauron]

I made another .gif to demonstrate the Trip move, from a recent video on GameTrailers. Its pretty clear you can do it from an idle, as both this and the Yoshi example were straight out of an idle.

Also, here's the original clip from the first post, inlined (I'm not sure why GAW posted it as a link instead of directly using [ IMG ] tags.

 

[Mama]

I just noticed something in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8PqbN2WM7M

At around 1:18-1:19, Sonic appears to do his aerial down kick (not sure if it's down A or down B), but then before he starts to move down after sticking his foot out, he seems to cancel it and do it again. Anyone know what that is? It kind of looks like he jumped after doing it (it shows the little jumping effect under his feet) but he does it from right where he first executed the move. It would be pretty useful for some mindgames and whatnot. It's like a fake fall or a d-air cancel or something.

Anyone know what it is?

If it's something useful, then I christen it fake fall or fall cancel or d-air cancel...or something that sounds cool and useful.

You're entirely right. If he was hit by Pikachu he would have been....well hit by Pikachu. Watch Pikachu when he does it. Pikachu's just spamming his head jab attack. Sonic does cancel it. You should go for feint. There may be many things similar to this and feint is simple and stylish.

 

[Mama]

I posted this in the other advanced tactics thread...

Wouldn't these techniques mean...Wavedashing is sort of in anyway? By virtue of the fact that everything it gave you can now be done in a different way?

I mean, think about it. What was Wavedashing used for besides giving extra speed to some slow characters?

1) Edge hogging by Wavedashing back off the edge of a ledge - Now you can just run off and tap back toward the stage to do the same thing.

2) Wavedash back then attack - First, some characters have a back roll so fast and lag-free that its pretty much the same as a Wavedash back. Secondly, you could do an actual, normal Dash backwards, then do a Dash Pivot Cancel to turn and attack in the direction you were originally facing. This accomplishes the same thing that a Wavedash back does, and is even more controllable because you can pivot at any time and move at a rate not dependant on your sliding friction. You can also Dash Dance into a Dash Brake to accomplish much the same thing.

3) Wavedash forward into an attack - Now you can Dash forward, then do a "Dash Brake" to stop on a dime and do your attack. The same thing that Wavedashing forward and attack would do.

4) Psych out opponent by quickly Wavedashing back and forth so they do not know when you will actually attack - This can be done just as easily with Dash Dancing, which is still in.

5) Slide toward or away when landing (Wavelanding) for spacing - Seems characters now naturally tend to slide in the direction they were moving when landing anyway, so you can almost Waveland by just pressing the direction you want to slide before you land and not have to press L/R at all. You can possibly even slide further by doing an air attack just before landing, as the Mario BAir clip we thought was a Waveland showed.

So, am I missing anything? Is there anything Wavedashing could do that you couldn't now accomplish with Dash Dancing, Dash Braking, and Dash Pivot Cancelling? Have we in fact not lost anything, but just gained alternate ways to do it that look more natural, is easier to do, and is possibly entirely intended to be used this way by the devs (judging from the fact that the Kirby/Mario footage showing off the Dash Brake was prerecorded footage from Nintendo)?

It seems everything lost is also something gained in its place, like losing directional dodging but gaining freedom to do things after the air-dodge is over. And losing L-cancelling but gaining reduced lag on most air attacks doesn't take away any strategy or tactics whatsoever (since there was no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack if you could, there was no strategy about when and where you should use it, you should always do it if you can, thus it wasn't really part of the metagame at all, it was just a straight-up technical skill). Now it just saves you a button press when SHFFL'ing. And now, losing Wavedashing but gaining the Tumble techniques which can take its place. Plus a natural tendency to slide when landing taking the place of Wavelanding.

I disagree. Reincarnated would fit it better (jk) I agree though. You're more or less entirely right imo. Though characters like Luigi seemed to need it (IN MELEE) I think that Wave dashing may be proven obsolete. So many people think that Brawl will lack depth. Well we've seen that the demo ( A DEMO lol) contains some pretty cool sh|t. The advanced techniques are being developed before the game even hits.....I wonder if theres gonna be threads complaining about the advanced techniques in Brawl before it hits (please no T_T)

EDIT : whoops meant to edit this into my other post. Pardon my double post lol

 

[Mr.GAW]

I made a few changes to the first post to make it more easily read and accesible.

 

[GTR!]

i cant wait to use the ink drop it has alot of potential and i think that dair sonic did and as that guy said if he indeed did cancel it that would be crazy

cant wait for to experience brawl

 

[Unrefined]

Hugging... forgive me if I dont call it by that name =) Instant edgehog will suffice.

 

[Mama]

i cant wait to use the ink drop it has alot of potential and i think that dair sonic did and as that guy said if he indeed did cancel it that would be crazy

cant wait for to experience brawl

Its his down-b. Similar to the falcon kick. And yes it would be crazy hehe.

Hugging... forgive me if I dont call it by that name =) Instant edgehog will suffice.

I rather like hugging. Not simply because it was hugs that "discovered" it but it also sort of fits. Hugging the stage in a way. But to each his own. I'm going to refer to Ink Drop as Trip canceling.

 

[petre]

I don't think so. Just look at him, there's not a single frame of a crouch there. He was skidding and cancelled it directly with a smash attack...

this is mostly why i dont think its an ink drop cancel, either. you dont see the start of one of those. theres nothing before the fsmash.

as of right now i dont know what it could be.

 

[Mr.GAW]

No, no, no. We're not saying it's an inkdrop cancel, we're saying it's something new. Like, you press the other direction real quick and stop. If you don't do it quick enough, that's when an ink drop would happen.

 

[Zauron]

this is mostly why i dont think its an ink drop cancel, either. you dont see the start of one of those. theres nothing before the fsmash.

as of right now i dont know what it could be.

Yeah, that's why I made this .gif:

To show that in slow-motion, you can see there are no crouch frames and no Trip frames, so it must be something else that stopped him.

And, it seems possible from Inkslinger's recent post that THIS is what he thought was a Trip-Cancel, but really it is just a quick Dash Brake that he turned and grabbed out of. He said he was Trip'ing all over the place on accident (hence why they started calling it Ink Drop), and then at one point he was dashing and suddenly stopped and grabbed someone behind him. When that happened, he thought it was related to the Trip move he'd been doing so much, and hence Gimpy's post about the so-called "Ink Drop" advanced technique. But it seems they were wrong on what Inkslinger actually did...

Because after the second day he could not reliably Trip and could not reliably cancel out of it. Which means it may not be possible to Trip-Cancel after all, and what he REALLY did was a Dash Brake into a turn-around grab somehow. A completely different move.

It may be the big deal about "Ink Dropping" is completely off-base, and this is really the big new advanced move, because evidence indicates that all Tripping does is leave you vulnerable until you roll out of it, at least until some new aspect of it is discovered.

 

[Zek]

Looks to me like they've eliminated the need to crouch to cancel your dash, and instead you just smash the stick in the opposite direction to start a skid which can instantly be cancelled into an attack.

 

[petre]

Looks to me like they've eliminated the need to crouch to cancel your dash, and instead you just smash the stick in the opposite direction to start a skid which can instantly be cancelled into an attack.

i hope its that simple, but i think they would have figured that out by now and reported it as that from E4All if it was that easy...

 

[Dizzynin]

These new ATs are awesome! But, I'm also worried that Sakurai and co. will find out and remove these new advanced techs by the game's final release...

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Dash Brake will replace wavedash

 

[Hippochinfat]

Wow. I noticed swimming then instant I saw that video. Whatever.

 

[Chris of STARS]

It's really lame how the people who figure this out try to name these moves after themselves, instead of what they actually are. "Ink drop" and "huggin" are about as creative as a 4 year old trying to come up with a name for their pet guinea pig. Just call them what they are and leave the egos out of it....nobody really cares about your internet celebrity status. That's just my two cents on that.

Anyways, as for the actual moves...these all seem like awesome ways to open up new depth. Niiiice.

 

[Red_Maniac]

About crawling... some people said that only certain characters like Pikachu can crawl, and you have to press diaganol+down.

 

[Magic]

The interesting thing about swimming is that moves like Ike's Aether, Bowser's Bowser Bomb, etc, kill you if you do it in the water. So it seems there is a floor at the bottom..perhaps you can be spiked into it.

 

[Eaode]

From my understanding, Hugging is called hugging mainly because you are pressing the control stick toward the stage, hugging on the edge, and then grab it. The fact that HugS discovered it is a bonus!

Think of "Wallhugging" in melee.

 

[Phlemingo]

Momentum Stalling with forward aerials might belong in here but I doubt we have enough info on it right now.

 

[Mr.GAW]

I believe that is just regular DI, but I might put it in here anyways.

 

[RocketDarkness]

Now I'm starting to wonder whether the technique being called "trips" are actually directional dives. We know from the Nintendo World movie that Snake can go into a dive and then land in the crawling position. Perhaps what happens in the Yoshi and Mario Trip .gifs is what happens when you dive with a character that is incapable of crawling?

 

[Mr.GAW]

You mean the Ink Drop?

Jk, jk, I don't want this to become a thread about that. I just hope you realize that you'll be the minority in calling it trips, and that will only add to the confusion.

You propose an interesting theory, but don't you think Gimpy and HugS and Ink would've noticed that?

 

[Zauron]

I was actually thinking the same thing RocketDarkness. But then someone mentioned crawling with, I think Pikachu?, and they didn't say anything about doing a dive into it first. And another player mentioned that Mario could NOT crawl, but you'd think they would have mentioned that when he tried to crawl he did a Trip instead.

Maybe they just didn't think to note that, I don't know, because otherwise it does seem a Trip leads into a Crawl, but only for some characters, and the others just land on their butts instead of in a crawling position when they Trip, and then all they can do is roll back to their feet.

 

[Mr.GAW]

This would mean crawling would be cancelable if the ink drop actually is, correct?

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Think about it. Why would Sakurai implement the ink drop? He had a reason for changing air dodging and other similar changes, but this just doesn't make sense. No one was spamming...changing directions.

Now, if you watch the trailer in which Snake crawls (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/movies/movie02.html (also seen in the "Snake Joins the Brawl!" video)) he kind of does a flip/cartwheel and then falls down into the crawling position. If you watch the common gif of Yoshi performing an ink drop, he does a similar flip/cartwheel before he falls. My proposal is that you are able to either go into a crawl after that flip, or you can choose to just roll out of it, back into a standing position.

I was not at E4A and thus I have little information about the Ink Drop. I could be missing a piece to the puzzle but I seriously think that this makes sense. The reason no one could crawl in the demo was because Sakurai took it out of the demo, and thus, the only thing to do was fall (ink drop) or cancel it.

Comments?

I just posted a thread titled 'Are the Ink Drop and Crawling Related?' and that quote is the body of the thread. Has this been discussed before?

 

[Mr.GAW]

It's actually being discussed in the posts right above yours.

I'm starting to think they ARE related, but there's also definetly some valid arguments.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Lol, ****, I was hoping that I had discovered it.

It seems to fit perfectly, to me. The Yoshi and Snake animations are identical.

 

[RocketDarkness]

I was actually thinking the same thing RocketDarkness. But then someone mentioned crawling with, I think Pikachu?, and they didn't say anything about doing a dive into it first. And another player mentioned that Mario could NOT crawl, but you'd think they would have mentioned that when he tried to crawl he did a Trip instead.

Maybe they just didn't think to note that, I don't know, because otherwise it does seem a Trip leads into a Crawl, but only for some characters, and the others just land on their butts instead of in a crawling position when they Trip, and then all they can do is roll back to their feet.

Well, it'd definitely make sense for characters to be able to crawl without diving first. It's possible diving may be some input that hasn't completely been revealed, or perhaps not even fully implemented into the demo yet. Diving would be a neat addition, since it's provide the quick-dodge usage of wavedashing, with the potential penalty of ending up on your butt. Perhaps there's a further button input required to quickly recover or go into a crouch.

At this point, I'm very suspicious of what isn't possible from the demo. I'm getting the vibe that certain gameplay elements have been conveniently removed to keep us in the dark.