Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

LightLV · Jan 16, 2016

Frido19 said:
I have been trying to figure out how to understand the knockback values of some attacks, and I've done two tests using this formula:

( ( ( ( ( p/10 + p*d/20 ) * 200/w+100 * 1.4) +18) *s) +b) *r)

p = percent of target
d= damage dealt before the attack hit
w = weight of target
s = knockback growth
b = attack's base knockback
r = ratio of rage, smash charge, crouch cancel, etc...

My 1st test was using Ryu's L.U-tilt against Mario at 0 percent with r set to 1, since I didn't feel the need to test those variables.
My result was 1711

My 2nd test was using Ryu's H.U-tilt against Mario at 0 percent with r set to 1.
This result was 1330

What I want to know is, why is the result higher for the L.U-tilt when it obviously gives off less knockback than the H.U-tilt? Am I reading the values wrong, or am I performing the equation wrong? It would be awesome if someone can provide step by step reasons as to what I did wrong.

P.S. I didn't know what other sub-forum to post this in.

I got 1764 for L.Utilt, and 2161 for M Utilt.

P = the percentage of the target AFTER the attack lands. So if you're at 0%, and get hit with a 2% damage attack, the P value you put into the equation is 2%.

D = The damage of the attack. If the attack does 2%, then that is the value of D.

Other than KBG, p*d/20 is the biggest contributor to knockback, since it's directly affected by both the damage the attack deals and the percentage after the damage is dealt. So that's probably where your calculation went wrong.

KuroganeHammer · Jan 17, 2016

LightLV said:
I got 1764 for L.Utilt, and 2161 for M Utilt.

P = the percentage of the target AFTER the attack lands. So if you're at 0%, and get hit with a 2% damage attack, the P value you put into the equation is 2%.

D = The damage of the attack. If the attack does 2%, then that is the value of D.

Other than KBG, p*d/20 is the biggest contributor to knockback, since it's directly affected by both the damage the attack deals and the percentage after the damage is dealt. So that's probably where your calculation went wrong.

He got the formula wrong. KBG is meant to be divided by 100.

Alternatively you guys could use this: http://qldsmash.com/aeromaths2.html

Sonicninja115 · Jan 17, 2016

Is there a math formula for rage? Is there a way to work out percents using a mathematical formula or do I have to lab it in a match?

Lavani · Jan 17, 2016

Sonicninja115 said:
Is there a math formula for rage? Is there a way to work out percents using a mathematical formula or do I have to lab it in a match?

My current understanding of rage, where x denotes your own percent and y is the multiplier on final knockback,

if x ≤ 35, y = 1
if 36 ≤ x ≤ 150, y = 0.001304x + .954348
if x ≥ 150, y = 1.15

35 (and under) = x1.0
90 = ~x1.07
115 = ~x1.10
150 (and over) = x1.15
etc

EDIT: Though those are pretty awkward numbers. Maybe the actual formula's closer to something like 0.0013x + .955 and rage actually caps just shy of 1.15? I dunno if we really have a way to determine something that precise as it currently stands.

Sonicninja115 · Jan 17, 2016

Lavani said:
My current understanding for rage, where x denotes your own percent and y is the multiplier on final knockback,

if x ≤ 35, y = 1
if 36 ≤ x ≤ 150, y = 0.001304x + .954348
if x ≥ 150, y = 1.15

35 (and under) = x1.0
90 = ~x1.07
115 = ~x1.10
150 (and over) = x1.15
etc

Thanks!

Shaya · Jan 17, 2016

Lavani said:
I dunno if we really have a way to determine something that precise as it currently stands.

lightest character (jiggs), very high powered attack (Marth's final smash?), poison mushroom and regular mushroom respectively.
We'd get larger indicative numbers I'd assume.
If that's (or similar) not what's already been done for getting the values we have.

realmwars · Jan 17, 2016

Anyone got any tips on not rolling so much? I'm told I'm good (although I strongly disagree) but I roll too much, so I was wondering if there was anything I can do to break the habit of rolling too much.

One movement option I'm aware of is

dashing back and forth
but I'd like to know if there's other movement options I can work on using.

My mains are

Lavani · Jan 17, 2016

Shaya said:
lightest character (jiggs), very high powered attack (Marth's final smash?), poison mushroom and regular mushroom respectively.
We'd get larger indicative numbers I'd assume.

That's actually the opposite of what we'd want for a better scale of rage, the smaller the kill percent is the larger the margin of error is.

That does give me the idea though that a test could be done with 0% and 150% Palutena jab against Dedede, with a rageless KO percent probably in the 800~900% range it should give a much clearer idea of where the rage ceiling is.

I don't have access to Smash for awhile though, so it'll be a few days before I can get around to it at least.

Vipermoon · Jan 17, 2016

Lavani said:
That's actually the opposite of what we'd want for a better scale of rage, the smaller the kill percent is the larger the margin of error is.

That does give me the idea though that a test could be done with 0% and 150% Palutena jab against Dedede, with a rageless KO percent probably in the 800~900% range it should give a much clearer idea of where the rage ceiling is.

I don't have access to Smash for awhile though, so it'll be a few days before I can get around to it at least.

I thought it was suggested so that you can look at the launch speed "mi/hr" in the results. With something like Marth's FS, even the smallest rage multiplier will affect it. Or some other high base KB move.

Lavani · Jan 17, 2016

Vipermoon64 said:
I thought it was suggested so that you can look at the launch speed "mi/hr" in the results. With something like Marth's FS, even the smallest rage multiplier will affect it. Or some other high base KB move.

That number's not usable for this on Wii U (we've discussed this in the thread a few times already), and while it's probably usable on 3DS I'd still rather go by hard math rather than game stats that may or may not be arbitrary because 3DS launch speed still uses a smaller scale than the actual KB numbers (ex. Yoshi's double jump armor breaks at 120KB but 76.xx 3DS launch speed) and isn't confirmed to scale linearly with knockback.

MadCanard · Jan 20, 2016

I was playing around with Lucas today and heard he had lots of wave bouncing potential so I set my C-Stick to special and discovered he could do a decent grounded side special backwards wavebounce while running. I decided to play around with the rest of the cast and found a few potentially useful things and a couple most likely not useful things.

The following were performed by hitting the C-Stick in the OPPOSITE direction while running.

These characters bounced back noticeably before performing their side special.

Did his shadow sneak in place instead of moving forward slightly.

Their side specials had noticeably longer distance when performed this way.

The following was performed by hitting the C-Stick UP while running.

Slides forward a good distance before performing his Up Special jump.

The following was performed while hitting the C-Stick DOWN while running.

During the watering phase of Villager's Down Special he can start up his watering can and use it without ever stopping his forward motion.

The following were performed while hitting the C-Stick UP or DOWN while dashing.

If you hit up or down Special during their initial dash and repeatedly hit up or down special after while holding forward on the control stick they will foxtrot. Correct timing needed. (This probably works for some other characters too, but it didn't seem very useful so I didn't bother checking.)

I couldn't check

because I've been slacking and haven't downloaded him yet.

LancerStaff · Jan 20, 2016

MadCanard said:
Their side specials had noticeably longer distance when performed this way.

Captain Falcon's been known... An old Brawl tech that got buried because the move was meh, resurrected by the move's buff and it also ended up being usable on the Pit's due to the apparent cloning of the move. Peach and Toon Link's just go further depending on how hard you press forwards IIRC.

Still, nice work.

Aaron1997 · Jan 21, 2016

Not Sure if this is new or not but some Japanese gut may of found a new way of PP http://imgur.com/USOW1qa

Sonicninja115 · Jan 21, 2016

Aaron1997 said:
Not Sure if this is new or not but some Japanese gut may of found a new way of PP http://imgur.com/USOW1qa

so it extends the range a bit? It also makes a CC so I guess that is good.

Fox Is Openly Deceptive · Jan 21, 2016

Using Fox as in the clip, it's not extending the sliding distance whether I crouch or not on the frame after the PP (when visually comparing the two on omega wrecking crew), and I'm inputting the PP on the exact same frames each time. It just looks cool and is more difficult to input.

Meshima · Jan 21, 2016

Aaron1997 said:
Not Sure if this is new or not but some Japanese gut may of found a new way of PP http://imgur.com/USOW1qa

I don't know how is called in English, you can easily perform this way by using Bidou(微動術).

edit:
As

Fox Is Openly Deceptive mentioned, it's just crouching after perfect pivot.

TheReflexWonder · Jan 21, 2016

So the wall tech window is eight frames plus however many frames you're stuck to the wall (the number of which is higher based on your knockback).

That's all well and good, but do we know how many frames the "failed tech" window is, where you can't press Shield again to tech until after that period is over?

EDIT: Here's a thing:

Cassio · Jan 21, 2016

Can someone explain what a long perfect pivot is? Someone on the socal facebook group said void uses it.

This is how it was described:
U can interrupt ur dash animation at different times. One has dust, one doesn't. The one that does is slightly longer. Thus the name LPP.

Pikabunz · Jan 21, 2016

It's when you perfect pivot on the last frame of the pp window. The last frame in the pp window is the 5th frame and is the one that has the dust. Edit: You can see the dust if you pp on the 4th frame too, but the 5th gives you the longest slide.

Sonicninja115 · Jan 21, 2016

Cassio said:
Can someone explain what a long perfect pivot is? Someone on the socal facebook group said void uses it.

This is how it was described:
U can interrupt ur dash animation at different times. One has dust, one doesn't. The one that does is slightly longer. Thus the name LPP.

FIOD has a post a page or two back, but the gist is that PP isn't frame perfect. The initial dash can be interrupted on the first-fifth frame, and after that it is frame perfect. So, a frame perfect, 3 frame, PP goes a much shorter distance then a 7 frame PP.

Edit: missed it by that much...

Vipermoon · Jan 22, 2016

Shaya

There's A LOT of good stuff in this thread that are buried in these pages. It's very hard to find these things. What if I compile links to informative posts from the last 20 to 30 pages and you put them in the OP?

Obviously, as a bonus, this will prevent the same questions being asked every week.

I speak Spanish too · Jan 22, 2016

Frame Canceling works on shields right?

Dr. Tuen · Jan 22, 2016

I speak Spanish too said:
Frame Canceling works on shields right?

Nope, it does not.

Vipermoon · Jan 22, 2016

I speak Spanish too said:
Frame Canceling works on shields right?

It doesn't but when landing hitboxes hit shields, they still "frame cancel". So it does and it doesn't.

Ixisnaugus · Jan 22, 2016

I think

Pikabunz made a chart detailing how early you could act out of hitstun at certain percents. Can I ask for that to be posted again?

Pikabunz · Jan 24, 2016

Ixisnaugus said:
I think Pikabunz made a chart detailing how early you could act out of hitstun at certain percents. Can I ask for that to be posted again?

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322

Sorry for the late reply.

I speak Spanish too · Jan 24, 2016

Meshima said:
I don't know how is called in English, you can easily perform this way by using Bidou(微動術).

edit:
As Fox Is Openly Deceptive mentioned, it's just crouching after perfect pivot.

Yeah some of the techniques in this video I don't understand. What I really want to know how to do is fastest ledge trump, fastest turning dash, and c-turn. What are the inputs?

Vipermoon · Jan 25, 2016

Shaya So here are the especially notable/informative posts in this thread since page 44 (the page that I joined this thread) that you can place in the OP. It was a huge biotch to compile but it should be pretty easy now to add to this gradually in the future.

DrPumpkinz · Jan 25, 2016

My friend and I are in a bit of an argument over terminology. What is a semi-spike? I said that it was a move with horizontal knockback, like Meta Knight's dair or Dedede's dsmash. He said it's when you catch someone in an autolink move while falling and miss the final hit of that move, thus dragging the opponent downward.

ぱみゅ · Jan 25, 2016

You are half right.
Semispike is more or less a more that sends you to a diagonal, horizontal-down angle.
It was more note-worthy on previous games because they had spikes and meteors. Meteors were cancellable with jumps, but spikes were not, so semispikes were almost as bad as spikes.

Also, this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/
:196:

Zapp Branniglenn · Jan 25, 2016

So this hitstun cancelling seems true to its name. You can air dodge out of true combo ranges. I think a lot of our data on throw combos is about to be thrown out when people realize they can't trust training mode with their Dthrow to Uair kill ranges.

Shaya · Jan 25, 2016

It's been said/talked about since 3DS release.
"You can air dodge out of tumble like in Brawl"

And training mode counter is another one of those things we know aren't accurate.
We finally stopped getting all the "I just tried down throw up air on my character and it registered as a combo and it didn't before, sakurai buffed our throws, yay" during patch note cycles for some reason, and I hope it was due to us yelling training mode counter sucks.

Unlike Brawl, aerials eventually start having their hitstun increase too.

It would be really convenient if there were a way to practice comboing/frame trap timing with CPUs dodging as soon as they can.
I feel like the CPUs in Smash4 wait out the native hit stun, which is unlike Brawl.

Yikarur · Jan 25, 2016

I just want to tell everyone once more that the use of "FAF" is completely garbage and should be reverted. I have a discussion at least once a week about this subject and NO ONE understands what FAF means and they all get it wrong because it's completely unintuitive and NO FIGHTING GAME FRAME DATA uses such a weird term.

KuroganeHammer I have no idea why you use it but it's completely confusing and people read the frame data wrong all the time because of it. I even do a lot of mistakes in my compilations because all the japanese frame data use total frames as well and mistakes happen if you use any other source and compare them to your page.

Be smart.
Don't use FAF, like every other frame data compilation in the world.

Frido19 · Jan 25, 2016

I think they use that term because some moves last longer than the actual frame you can act out of. In a video (I forgot which one) I saw the player use sheik's F-Air way above the ledge and he could act out of the F-air pretty early, but he could not snap to the ledge until the move was actually over. I agree with you on the fact that its completely confusing , but it has an actually purpose. Even some moves can be acted out of before the animation is even finished.

I noticed that when reading frame data of characters, there is something called "Soft Landing Lag", and "Hard Landing Lag", what is this and when is it applied?

Sonicninja115 · Jan 25, 2016

Zapp Branniglenn said:
So this hitstun cancelling seems true to its name. You can air dodge out of true combo ranges. I think a lot of our data on throw combos is about to be thrown out when people realize they can't trust training mode with their Dthrow to Uair kill ranges.

Excuse me for being ignorant, but what is this hitstun cancelling? I heard that greninja can cancel hitstun on his side b, but other then that, nothing. I lab a lot of combos with Mewtwo and Diddy, so I really want to know if I need to change my methods.

Zapp Branniglenn · Jan 25, 2016

Shaya said:
It's been said/talked about since 3DS release.
"You can air dodge out of tumble like in Brawl"

And training mode counter is another one of those things we know aren't accurate.

I heard the whispers since 3DS release, but it was always predicated with a "maybe" or "I heard that..." by people whom you wouldn't be blamed for assuming they misunderstood the concept. Of course, when you watch a professional match where Sheik misses a Dthrow to Uair because of their air dodge, you'd have to assume something is wrong. But when you just tell people the combo counter is wrong without an explanation, that doesn't communicate to people "yeah, hitstun cancelling is in this game". Because up until now, I could only explain these instances in my mind with missed inputs or rage.

Frido19 said:
I think they use that term because some moves last longer than the actual frame you can act out of. In a video (I forgot which one) I saw the player use sheik's F-Air way above the ledge and he could act out of the F-air pretty early, but he could not snap to the ledge until the move was actually over.

The time it takes to grab a ledge is unrelated to the term "FAF" It really just means the first frame you can act.

As for FAF over Total Frames, speaking as somebody that does prefer total frames, I really don't care which one others prefer. I know that FAF is just Total Frames plus one. There's no potential for confusion when it comes to this game. And if you're coming from another fighter, all you need is a quick stop over to the Smash Dictionary thread and figure out what the acronym means.

Frido19 said:
I noticed that when reading frame data of characters, there is something called "Soft Landing Lag", and "Hard Landing Lag", what is this and when is it applied?

Those landing lags are what you experience when you character lands on the ground without an aerial or specific action. Soft landing lag only ever happens when you do an empty short hop. Hard is applicable to anything at full hop height or higher. It's also what you experience when you land during an autocancel frame, as well as landing shortly after exiting hitstun, no matter what your height was.

Pikabunz · Jan 25, 2016

Frido19 said:
I think they use that term because some moves last longer than the actual frame you can act out of. In a video (I forgot which one) I saw the player use sheik's F-Air way above the ledge and he could act out of the F-air pretty early, but he could not snap to the ledge until the move was actually over. I agree with you on the fact that its completely confusing , but it has an actually purpose. Even some moves can be acted out of before the animation is even finished.

Total frames doesn't count the extra frames of animation at the end of a move. So total frames will always be one less than whatever the FAF is.

Vipermoon · Jan 25, 2016

Yikarur said:
I just want to tell everyone once more that the use of "FAF" is completely garbage and should be reverted. I have a discussion at least once a week about this subject and NO ONE understands what FAF means and they all get it wrong because it's completely unintuitive and NO FIGHTING GAME FRAME DATA uses such a weird term.

KuroganeHammer I have no idea why you use it but it's completely confusing and people read the frame data wrong all the time because of it. I even do a lot of mistakes in my compilations because all the japanese frame data use total frames as well and mistakes happen if you use any other source and compare them to your page.

Be smart.
Don't use FAF, like every other frame data compilation in the world.

FAF is garbage. Thanks for being the resistance. Yes, the game uses IASA which is the same as FAF but we don't have to. All we need to know is when a move ends.

KuroganeHammer Kuroganehammer is a very popular website at this point. You switching to total frames really matters when it comes to getting everyone else to stop using FAF. This will also stop the needless confusion.

All we need in Smash:

-IASA to describe transition interruptability of things like Jab1 to Jab2.
-Total Frame to tell you total frames! And NO ONE cares or is looking to work hard enough to find out how long an animation lasts and that certainly isn't what total frames means anyway.

FAF/IASA to describe how long a move lasts is garbage.

ぱみゅ · Jan 25, 2016

I think you guys are overreacting over a pretty trivial change.
FAF 30 means the 30th frame will be the first one the next move will come out at.
Total 30 means the 31st frame will be the first one the next move will come out at.
The difference is 1 frame, and I see no reason why anyone would be confused by the difference if they know it. If they don't know the difference between total frames and FAF, they probably won't even notice.
:196:

LancerStaff · Jan 26, 2016

Shaya said:
I feel like the CPUs in Smash4 wait out the native hit stun, which is unlike Brawl.

Can confirm. Pit's dthrow > double > Uair is an easy kill confirm on CPU Marios, but human players can easily escape.

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