Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Swoops]

I am also curious about the clash mechanics. I feel like it might have to do with damage/hit stun as well as the moves original recovery frames.

From playing as ganondorf, I've had usmash clash with numerous weaker tilts, and I could swear that I actually get to combo a faster tilt off of the trade.

 

[Pikabunz]

What moves were you testing in particular? Jabs vs other jabs?

Pikachu dtilt (6%) and Mario usmash (14%). I've done other moves that were closer in percent and it always ended up with both characters recovering at the same time.

 

[A_Kae]

Marth's untipped f-smash (13%) against another Marth's tipped Jab (6% before the patch, which is when I did this) gives the same amount of clashing lag. I was able to shield with both characters at the same time.

It's possible that damage that both moves do determines the clash lag, but if it does, it's the same for both characters.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Pikachu dtilt (6%) and Mario usmash (14%). I've done other moves that were closer in percent and it always ended up with both characters recovering at the same time.

Oh ok, this is good to know. So two characters clashing moves should result in both receiving the exact same amount of clash lag every single time?

How about clashing with projectiles, like say Luigi fireballs? Do you receive the same amount of clash lag clashing with any move? Or do you receive a different amount of recovery depending on what you use?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Someone should try moves with differing hitlag multipliers.

 

[A_Kae]

Someone should try moves with differing hitlag multipliers.

I did, they were the same. Marth's Jab when tipped has a 1.25x modifer, and F-smash has a 0.7x modifier when not tipped.

Edit: It does seem that there is just a static number of frames for clashing. Maybe about 30-40 frames?

 

[Ulevo]

I am quite positive that there are instances in which the clash lag differs between characters. It happens somewhat often when I play Meta Knight.

 

[busken]

Can somebody educate me on input buffering? As of now, I know that in smash 4 you have a 10 frame buffer window. Which means you have 10 frames to input another action while already in another animation so that the input you buffered comes out on the first possible frame. What is the most optimal way to buffer inputs though, most notebly aerials out of a short hop and options on the ledge. I know @ TheReflexWonder is very well-versed on this mechanic.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can only buffer one input at a time, and no matter the number or order of inputs you put in that ten-frame window, it will pick one based on a list of priority:

Special > Shield > Attack > Jump

As far as buffering options out of other options, you just have to make sure you're not pressing another input that outprioritizes the first step. For example, characters trying to do a U-Smash out of shield to punish someone touching your shield are often annoyed by this. If you press Jump and Attack in the same buffer window, you'll just get Attack, which will not cause you to jump cancel your shield (because you never jumped), which will cause you to grab (since you're still shielding).

In the same way, to buffer an aerial, you must press only Jump until your jump squat frames start, then you must press Attack during the jump squat frames (while making sure not to press Special or Shield during those jump squat frames).

 

[busken]

You can only buffer one input at a time, and no matter the number or order of inputs you put in that ten-frame window, it will pick one based on a list of priority:

Special > Shield > Attack > Jump

As far as buffering options out of other options, you just have to make sure you're not pressing another input that outprioritizes the first step. For example, characters trying to do a U-Smash out of shield to punish someone touching your shield are often annoyed by this. If you press Jump and Attack in the same buffer window, you'll just get Attack, which will not cause you to jump cancel your shield (because you never jumped), which will cause you to grab (since you're still shielding).

In the same way, to buffer an aerial, you must press only Jump until your jump squat frames start, then you must press Attack during the jump squat frames (while making sure not to press Special or Shield during those jump squat frames).

So I would imagine characters with shorter jump squat animations, the timing would be tighter to buffer an aerial. Also, what is the most optimal way of doing this though because if a quick jump squat is 3 frames, and you have to input an aerial after clicking jump, wouldn't that mean you'd only have like 2 frames to input an aerial?

For ledge options, I believe if you just mash attack once you get on the ledge you will buffer it. Same with roll and jump I assume.

 

[Ffamran]

So I would imagine characters with shorter jump squat animations, the timing would be tighter to buffer an aerial. Also, what is the most optimal way of doing this though because if a quick jump squat is 3 frames, and you have to input an aerial after clicking jump, wouldn't that mean you'd only have like 2 frames to input an aerial?

For ledge options, I believe if you just mash attack once you get on the ledge you will buffer it. Same with roll and jump I assume.

You could try VaBengal's method of double sticking to buffer short hop aerials more easily.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I would imagine characters with shorter jump squat animations, the timing would be tighter to buffer an aerial. Also, what is the most optimal way of doing this though because if a quick jump squat is 3 frames, and you have to input an aerial after clicking jump, wouldn't that mean you'd only have like 2 frames to input an aerial?

For ledge options, I believe if you just mash attack once you get on the ledge you will buffer it. Same with roll and jump I assume.

Yes, the timing is tighter for characters with shorter jump squat animations. If you're doing an aerial from the ground without dealing with shield hitlag, pressing Jump -> Attack as quickly as possible works fine, too (I slide my thumb from Y to A on the GameCube controller).

Yes, as long as you press one of the bufferable options at the ledge, it will come out. Input priority still applies (and Special causes you to Ledge Attack).

 

[busken]

You could try VaBengal's method of double sticking to buffer short hop aerials more easily.

YOOOOO, i literally just found that video....

 

[A_Kae]

Remember you can set custom controls to make buffering aerial easier. I use L as jump for this reason.

 

[busken]

Remember you can set custom controls to make buffering aerial easier. I use L as jump for this reason.

I previously used B to jump, but sometimes I would hit the c-stick before hitting B. Double Sticking seems to require more percision but if mastered, it seems to be impossible to get an input error.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Remember you can set custom controls to make buffering aerial easier. I use L as jump for this reason.

I also have L to jump (and c-stick to attack, to boot). So it would stand to reason that you can get some frame perfect aerials this way too?

---

Also! Initial reports show that sixriver's frame data was recorded using a 60 fps capture device. I'm not yet 100% sure about this, since he also got hitbox duration, but I'll still look into correcting my numbers to publish a list of aerials that benefit from landing delay.

 

[A_Kae]

As long as you input the aerial (excluding u-air) before the jumpsquat ends, it'll be out as soon as possible. Frame perfect.

I really don't get why most people keep jump as X or Y. You don't need 2 shields, and setting L or R to jump makes things so much easier.

I'd guess that sixriver's data is a combination of 60fps recording and a data dump like this one: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

 

[busken]

Is Reverse Boost Grabbing still possible in this game? If so, it can function as a wavedash backwards.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Don't press buttons like you're momentum canceling in Brawl.

 

[Pazx]

@ TheReflexWonder 's video prompted me to post this in a place where it's more easily viewed:

Watching your videos I noticed a pattern and was able to successfully predict which throws would kill the training dummy and which wouldn't.

Every time Ryu entered a "spinning" animation after the bthrow at 100% he died, if not he lived. The video of Roy on BF was the opposite: if he "spun" he lived, if he was fairly static as he flew through the air he died. Bowser dies at 114% when he spins and lives if he doesn't. I imagine this animation changes the characters hurtboxes slightly, or even alters the launch trajectory thus causing him to come into contact with the blast zone at a different point.

These videos conclusively show that the knockback animation you enter has a measurable effect on your launch trajectory. It's not quite what either you or Ulevo were looking for but it seems further testing must be done when measuring blast zones and kill percentages.

Tests must be performed against the same character across multiple stages only recording the kill% or distance launched when the character enters a specific (eg spinning or not spinning, whichever one is more common?) animation after receiving knockback.

This pertains to your video in the Samus example Reflex (two different animations following knockback). It's just another variable to be conscious of when testing.

Also in terms of "momentum cancelling" aerials I've had limited success with Ness's forward air, Diddy's back air and Pikachu's back air (I think? Might be fair) but these were observed before I was keeping an eye on hitstun animations so I could have been getting lucky during testing.

 

[Ulevo]

Don't press buttons like you're momentum canceling in Brawl.

Something else worth reporting. I do not know if this is because of Meta Knight's air speed or air acceleration, but in Smash 4 if you want to survive the blast zones you are best to use your double jump on the earliest frame. I tested this with Ness using a back throw at the ledge on Smashville, no DI. Meta Knight will die for sure at 76%. At 75%, he will die if you use an aerial attack or an air dodge, but if you jump, you will survive. I think this remains consistent for a few more % lower. It is not a huge difference, but if it means saving your stock it is important. I think this might be particularly useful for Meta Knight because he has access to multiple jumps, so using one is not a big deal. A lot of characters might die if they use their double jump to avoid the blast zone by simply not being able to make it back.

 

[Aquamentii]

I believe this is the right thread to post this:
Simple question, really. How do you do a footstool? I'm tying to work them into my gameplay, since they're essential to Jab locking and the most disrespectful gimps offstage. The problem is, I don't know how to do one reliably. I've only managed to do them on accident so far, and I don't know if it's as simple as pressing jump when you're right next to someone in the air or like wall jumping where you have to flick the control stick. I haven't been able to find any videos on footstool guides or any other threads answering this question.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I believe this is the right thread to post this:
Simple question, really. How do you do a footstool? I'm tying to work them into my gameplay, since they're essential to Jab locking and the most disrespectful gimps offstage. The problem is, I don't know how to do one reliably. I've only managed to do them on accident so far, and I don't know if it's as simple as pressing jump when you're right next to someone in the air or like wall jumping where you have to flick the control stick. I haven't been able to find any videos on footstool guides or any other threads answering this question.

If you press Jump (whether that's a button or Up on the Control Stick), if you are within a certain range of an opponent's head/shoulders, you'll footstool them.

I think that whenever you press Jump without a mid-air jump left, the game does the footstool check for the next ten frames.

 

[Aquamentii]

Ok, thank you

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Are you only able to input a wall tech after you get hit? If I'm really close to a wall or touching it, can I buffer a wall tech in preparation to be hit or do I have press it as soon I'm hit?

 

[Big O]

Oh ok, this is good to know. So two characters clashing moves should result in both receiving the exact same amount of clash lag every single time?

How about clashing with projectiles, like say Luigi fireballs? Do you receive the same amount of clash lag clashing with any move? Or do you receive a different amount of recovery depending on what you use?

Clashing with projectiles seems to work differently. Like say you want to clank Luigi's fireball with an attack. You have the least amount of clank lag doing weak/low damage moves like jabs. For DK, clanking with pretty much anything except jab gets you punished hard.

 

[Aquamentii]

Are you only able to input a wall tech after you get hit? If I'm really close to a wall or touching it, can I buffer a wall tech in preparation to be hit or do I have press it as soon I'm hit?

I don't know wether you can or can't, but it would probably be best not to, because if you're too early then you'll miss it and probably die, and you don't always know what move your opponent will hit you with. jiggs, for example, could come down with Bair or Nair, but because Bair is just a tad slower you'd probably miss. Best to just do it as a reaction.
Plus, I can't think of any situation where you'd be able to buffer a tech that you wouldn't have another escape option from. Really, it's just a situation of why bother

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you charge a Smash that has multiple hits, how is the added damage applied between hits? Is it all on the final hit?

 

[nyricanjr]

Is there some sort of input lag difference between GCN controllers and Pro controllers? I can easily interrupt roy's fair with a jump using pro, but I have to be near frame perfect using GCN. and oddly enough this happens only when fighting another human player locally, not against cpus or anything.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Clashing with projectiles seems to work differently. Like say you want to clank Luigi's fireball with an attack. You have the least amount of clank lag doing weak/low damage moves like jabs. For DK, clanking with pretty much anything except jab gets you punished hard.

This is really important, thanks for the response. Do you have any suspicions as to how the calculation of frames is done? If moves that are stronger or have more recovery receive more clash lag, that suggests either damage, knockback, knockback growth or total recovery frames play a role in how much total frames of clash lag one is given. Is there a strong theory on - or is it known how - it's calculated?

 

[Aquamentii]

If you charge a Smash that has multiple hits, how is the added damage applied between hits? Is it all on the final hit?

My WiiU is broken right now so I can't test this for myself, but go into training mode as Link or TLink and do a raw Fsmash, check how much each hit does, and then charge another one fully and check how much each hit does. In fact, you could just do the first hit and if there's no difference then it's only the final hit

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My WiiU is broken right now so I can't test this for myself, but go into training mode as Link or TLink and do a raw Fsmash, check how much each hit does, and then charge another one fully and check how much each hit does. In fact, you could just do the first hit and if there's no difference then it's only the final hit

That's an attack that you have to activate the second swing manually, though. They have to add the damage to the first hit there because otherwise you'd be charging for nothing if you didn't do the second swing.

 

[Ghostbone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFQW0MhZ7Tw#t=5m20s

MK's f-smash very clearly clashes with spindash (spincharge? whatever), and Sonic has far more lag after the clash than MK does.
/if we were wondering whether clash lag is always the same.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFQW0MhZ7Tw#t=5m20s

MK's f-smash very clearly clashes with spindash (spincharge? whatever), and Sonic has far more lag after the clash than MK does.
/if we were wondering whether clash lag is always the same.

It was Spin Charge, but yes, I had suspicions about this. I wonder if specials follow a different rule with clash lag? Either way, this shows that two characters clashing moves does not necessarily result in both suffering the same amount of clash lag.

 

[Leonyx]

If you charge a Smash that has multiple hits, how is the added damage applied between hits? Is it all on the final hit?

I just checked with Link's Usmash. Uncharged the hits deal 4%, 3% (to 7%), and 9% (to 16% total). Max charge deals 5%, 4% (to 9%), and 13% (to 22% total). I don't remember the multiplier on charge shots, but it seems to apply to the whole smash attack.

 

[Pikabunz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFQW0MhZ7Tw#t=5m20s

MK's f-smash very clearly clashes with spindash (spincharge? whatever), and Sonic has far more lag after the clash than MK does.
/if we were wondering whether clash lag is always the same.

MK didn't have clash lag there, only Sonic did.

Also, confirming that clash lag is based on damage. I had two Lucarios use full charged fsmash at max aura and they had super lag after the clash.

 

[A_Kae]

MK didn't have clash lag there, only Sonic did.

Also, confirming that clash lag is based on damage. I had two Lucarios use full charged fsmash at max aura and they had super lag after the clash.

Just to clarify, did they have significantly less lag when uncharged and with 0 aura?

 

[Pikabunz]

Yes, there was much less lag.

 

[A_Kae]

Yes, there was much less lag.

One more question.

Do you know if the clash lag is different for each character if the damage of the moves is different?

 

[Pikabunz]

It seems like both characters will always share the same amount lag, but the amount of lag is based on the combined damage of both moves.