Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Ixisnaugus]

MK didn't have clash lag there, only Sonic did.

Also, confirming that clash lag is based on damage. I had two Lucarios use full charged fsmash at max aura and they had super lag after the clash.

Do you have any idea why MK did not receive clash lag in this occasion, but Sonic did?

 

[NickRiddle]

Certain moves are programmed where they finish their animations no matter what a la ZSS up-tilt.

 

[Ghostbone]

So by that logic would MK's F-smash will never give MK clash lag?

 

[Ulevo]

I just tested this. Meta Knight's forward smash will clank with Ganondorf's forward smash and both will incur the exact same clash lag. But if Meta Knight's forward smash clanks with Wario's jab, Wario will incur the clash lag while Meta Knight will not.

This seems to be completely damage related.

 

[busken]

Once you are done in the hitstun animation, what if the first action you can do? Is their some type of priority or is it just off frame data? For example, If I'm Luigi and I do the standard d-throw f-air at 0% what is the first action they can do? I know that if you buffer an input it will come out in this order: Special, Shield, Attack, Jump

 

[Pikabunz]

Do you have any idea why MK did not receive clash lag in this occasion, but Sonic did?

MK's fsmash was much stronger than Sonic's spin. When two attacks meet and one of the moves does at least 9% more than the other, then that character's attack will continue while the other character suffers clash lag.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

MK's fsmash was much stronger than Sonic's spin. When two attacks meet and one of the moves does at least 9% more than the other, then that character's attack will continue while the other character suffers clash lag.

Iirc the 9% priority rule has applied at least since Melee, but did the lower priority move always result in the user getting clash lag? If the higher priority move interacted with the opposing character hitbox, then the opposing characters move would be ignored and the character would take damage, correct? So in this instance, did MK's FSmash damagebox[es] only happen to overlap with Sonic's Spin Charge damagebox, but not the character hitbox, resulting in Sonic only receiving clash lag?

 

[Lavani]

Certain attacks that enlarge limbs (Wario/Olimar ftilt, for example) seem to have partial invincibility, despite not being mentioned to provide any sort of bone intangibility in MasterCore. Do the character's hurtboxes simply not conform to the graphical alterations, or are there some other shenanigans taking place (bones being swapped out or something, perhaps?) that alter the character's hurtbox?

 

[SimplyChrono]

Is shield dropping any useful?, i see pretty much no one using it so i wonder if it's worth learning.

 

[busken]

Is shield dropping any useful?, i see pretty much no one using it so i wonder if it's worth learning.

I know perfect pivot is not useful either. You can microspace without such an input. ZeRo does it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Shield dropping from a platform is pretty useful in specific scenarios, that scenario just doesn't occur that often.

Whereas perfect pivot is just for showing off >.>

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You could try VaBengal's method of double sticking to buffer short hop aerials more easily.

/late addition

I looked at this further with respect to alternate button configuration, and I have a finding.

VaBangal's method allows you to hit tap jump, hold the up direction for any amount of time, hit the c-stick within the jumpsquat frames and... BAM - frame perfect short hop aerial. So you get: up (hold any duration) --> c-stick (4 ish frames)

If you change your jump to say... L, you are now required to release that button before the jumpsquat frames are over otherwise you will do a full jump. So the frame perfect input there is a lot less forgiving. Here you get: L (or other button) --> c-stick + release L (4 ish frames)

So, custom button usage is harder than tap jump. Not sure how I feel about that... cause tap jump is bleh. But it could be worth it!

 

[busken]

/late addition

I looked at this further with respect to alternate button configuration, and I have a finding.

VaBangal's method allows you to hit tap jump, hold the up direction for any amount of time, hit the c-stick within the jumpsquat frames and... BAM - frame perfect short hop aerial. So you get: up (hold any duration) --> c-stick (4 ish frames)

If you change your jump to say... L, you are now required to release that button before the jumpsquat frames are over otherwise you will do a full jump. So the frame perfect input there is a lot less forgiving. Here you get: L (or other button) --> c-stick + release L (4 ish frames)

So, custom button usage is harder than tap jump. Not sure how I feel about that... cause tap jump is bleh. But it could be worth it!

No, B to jump is the way to go. Since B is so close to the c-stick you can easily have frame perfect aerial if you hit b and c-stick direction almost simutaneously. Thr only thing you cant do is frame perfect u-airs but its definitely woth the trade of double sticking because double sticking sh aerials are hard for tou to turnaroud.

 

[A_Kae]

No, B to jump is the way to go. Since B is so close to the c-stick you can easily have frame perfect aerial if you hit b and c-stick direction almost simutaneously. Thr only thing you cant do is frame perfect u-airs but its definitely woth the trade of double sticking because double sticking sh aerials are hard for tou to turnaroud.

Or you could use a shoulder button for jump.

No need to quickly move a finger from a button to a stick. And with tilt-stick instead of smash, you can easily do frame perfect uairs.

 

[busken]

Or you could use a shoulder button for jump.

No need to quickly move a finger from a button to a stick. And with tilt-stick instead of smash, you can easily do frame perfect uairs.

Shoulder Buttons are much less forgiving if you read @ Dr. Tuen post. Honestly, at this point, just use what you're more consistent with.

 

[pikazz]

I have really want to practice Perfect Tilt Pivot (I can perfect Side Tilt Pivot but UpTilt and DownTilt is the one I want to master) but I cant seem to find a guide of how to do it in the perfect way possible

someone care to teach me?

 

[NickRiddle]

Have your c-stick set to tilt.
Perfect pivot.
C-stick.

 

[Ulevo]

You guys know using Y to jump invalidates the whole purpose behind double sticking right?

 

[NickRiddle]

You guys know using Y to jump invalidates the whole purpose behind double sticking right?

It's the concept of being able to have both hands on the stick instead of having to move from Y to C-Up

 

[Ulevo]

It's the concept of being able to have both hands on the stick instead of having to move from Y to C-Up

You could just press A for the same effect without using the C Stick, regardless if you use Y or tap to jump.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You guys know using Y to jump invalidates the whole purpose behind double sticking right?

Double sticking allows for less input error. You can literally leave the control stick in the up position, and still get a short hop if you c-stick fast enough.

If you use any other button as jump, you must release that button before your jump squat frames are done (for ZSS, 4 frames). This can easily lead to erroneous full hops. In addition to this, sliding your fingers for inputs (as the video describes) can lead to ~5 frames of error... which is enough to miss the auto cancel window for some moves.

 

[busken]

Double sticking allows for less input error. You can literally leave the control stick in the up position, and still get a short hop if you c-stick fast enough.

If you use any other button as jump, you must release that button before your jump squat frames are done (for ZSS, 4 frames). This can easily lead to erroneous full hops. In addition to this, sliding your fingers for inputs (as the video describes) can lead to ~5 frames of error... which is enough to miss the auto cancel window for some moves.

But you lose ground mobility.

 

[Ulevo]

Double sticking allows for less input error. You can literally leave the control stick in the up position, and still get a short hop if you c-stick fast enough.

If you use any other button as jump, you must release that button before your jump squat frames are done (for ZSS, 4 frames). This can easily lead to erroneous full hops. In addition to this, sliding your fingers for inputs (as the video describes) can lead to ~5 frames of error... which is enough to miss the auto cancel window for some moves.

1: Rest your thumb on both Y and A at the same time.
2: Roll your thumb so the pad hits Y and the knuckle hits the A button.
3: ???
4: Profit.

You lose the ability to control your movement with double sticking. Meanwhile my method gives you frame perfect aerials without losing aerial control. The only problem it does not solve, which double sticking fails to solve also, is frame perfect up airs.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

But you lose ground mobility.

I don't see how ground mobility is effected by either choice.

1: Rest your thumb on both Y and A at the same time.
2: Roll your thumb so the pad hits Y and the knuckle hits the A button.
3: ???
4: Profit.

You lose the ability to control your movement with double sticking. Meanwhile my method gives you frame perfect aerials without losing aerial control. The only problem it does not solve, which double sticking fails to solve also, is frame perfect up airs.

These have alternate mobility constraints and benefits. Saying one is strictly better than the other doesn't paint an objective picture.

Double Sticking - When performing the aerial, your left-right mobility is hindered (as you must be pressing up to input the control stick jump) but you can perform reverse aerials with ease. You can also perform frame perfect up air inputs by setting the c-stick to "attack."

Button Jumping - When performing the aerial, your left-right mobility is hindered in a different way, since you must be holding the direction of the aerial you want to input. So if you want to do a retreating fair, for instance, you must hold forward long enough for the desired aerial to be executed, then hold backwards. This messes with spacing and such. However, it has the benefit of retaining advancing aerials and RAR type movements, since you are pressing the direction you desire already and holding it after the aerial comes out. This method lacks a way to input frame perfect up airs.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't see how ground mobility is effected by either choice.



These have alternate mobility constraints and benefits. Saying one is strictly better than the other doesn't paint an objective picture.

Double Sticking - When performing the aerial, your left-right mobility is hindered (as you must be pressing up to input the control stick jump) but you can perform reverse aerials with ease. You can also perform frame perfect up air inputs by setting the c-stick to "attack."

Button Jumping - When performing the aerial, your left-right mobility is hindered in a different way, since you must be holding the direction of the aerial you want to input. So if you want to do a retreating fair, for instance, you must hold forward long enough for the desired aerial to be executed, then hold backwards. This messes with spacing and such. However, it has the benefit of retaining advancing aerials and RAR type movements, since you are pressing the direction you desire already and holding it after the aerial comes out. This method lacks a way to input frame perfect up airs.

Doing retreating forward air or advancing back air will always be suboptimal unless you use a trigger button, regardless of which above method you want to use. Also, I do not feel swapping the C Stick to attack is a pragmatic option, so I do not see this as a benefit to double sticking either.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Doing retreating forward air or advancing back air will always be suboptimal unless you use a trigger button, regardless of which above method you want to use. Also, I do not feel swapping the C Stick to attack is a pragmatic option, so I do not see this as a benefit to double sticking either.

I'm not entirely sure of what you mean by the first sentence. Retreating/advancing aerials are just an option in the tool box, and their viability as optimal play is purely based on the situation a player finds themselves in. Double sticking dulls both retreating and advancing options, button jumping dulls half of those options.

C-stick set to attack is very pragmatic, as it improves aerial mobility by itself. Without that switch, the smash-stick slows all momentum in the air when aerials are performed, which definitely weakens some advancing and retreating options. That option benefits double sticking because the jump button method doesn't involve the c-stick.

Anyways, I think this is a case of lateral equality. Each has up sides and down sides, and it's up to the player to pick what's most comfortable.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just use z to jump guys, you can use the control stick to move and the c-stick to aerial.

Plus no icky tap jump. (and up-smash/up-b out of shield are still easy)

 

[Ulevo]

Just use z to jump guys, you can use the control stick to move and the c-stick to aerial.

Plus no icky tap jump. (and up-smash/up-b out of shield are still easy)

This would be ideal, however I suspect this would hurt a lot of players hands due to the position of the button.

 

[busken]

When you use your double jump how many frames does it take to come out? Also, is it universal for all characters?

 

[icraq]

When you use your double jump how many frames does it take to come out? Also, is it universal for all characters?

It varies, depending on character. It's referred to as jump squat frames. Some characters have 4, and I think the highest is 7,though I could be wrong

 

[busken]

I thought jump squat frames only count if you are grounded though?

 

[A_Kae]

Jumpsquat is only grounded jumps.

As far as I know, air jumps start moving on F1 for everyone.

 

[busken]

Jumpsquat is only grounded jumps.

As far as I know, air jumps start moving on F1 for everyone.

I believe so to, but why can lightweight characters jump out of combos more easily? Is it because they become airborne more quickly?

 

[A_Kae]

I believe so to, but why can lightweight characters jump out of combos more easily? Is it because they become airborne more quickly?

I just tested this on a couple of characters, all of them moved on F1 on the air jump.

Light characters being able to jump out of combos is just because they're light enough to be hit out of it.

 

[Pazx]

Is it true that light characters are in hitstun for fewer frames than heavy characters when % and move used are the same? That would explain Busken's observation.

 

[busken]

Is it true that light characters are in hitstun for fewer frames than heavy characters when % and move used are the same? That would explain Busken's observation.

My theory is that since light characters become airborne faster because lighter weight=more knockback, they have quicker access to their frame 1 aerial double jump.

 

[A_Kae]

Is it true that light characters are in hitstun for fewer frames than heavy characters when % and move used are the same? That would explain Busken's observation.

It's the exact opposite. Lighter characters take more knockback. More knockback is more hitstun. Lighter characters take more hitstun.

They're just going too far to continue a combo, even though they're in hitstun for longer.

 

[busken]

I've been looking at some frame data of the cast and wonder that when you DI away the farther you go depends on your air speed. What is the air speed that would not get hit by the standard f-air? Such as Pac-man. Also what is the air speed that would get hit even with DI like Pikachu's f-air.

 

[icraq]

I thought jump squat frames only count if you are grounded though?

My bad, misread the question.

Someone posted their findings that's there's a max amount of frames one has to endure of hitstun before they can jump, air dodge or attack. At lower percents it's all the same, like 40 something frames max, but as you take more damage your max amount of time in hitstun stays around 40 for air dodges, but begins to increase for double jumping and attacking. The guy only tested dthrows iirc, so ymmv depending on the move.
Not enough has been tested with this.

I should note because I'm not doing a good job explaining it, if your hit stun ends before the 40 or so frames this is all irrelevant.

 

[Shaya]

You'll start to see actual vertical displacement from frame 2 usually, but the speed at which acceleration happens is different for every character.
Their animation has an impact on it too. ZSS will do a backflipping somersault becoming a "flat" horizontal-ish (parabola shape kinda) line, while normally you're a vertical line, the hurtboxes are still consistent to where you are.

The animation of going from vertical to horizontal helps you evade things. It's also an interesting nuance to microspacing because if you then initiate another animation (an attack), you'll act as if from your "standard" position.
This makes overhead fast things like Sheik's fair naturally more bull ****.