Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Shaya]

You can't dash out of a power shield... are you kidding (like are you 100% sure, it was really easy to input rolls after a PS in brawl)? That's probably the worst news I've heard about this game all year.

However, in Brawl power shields applied shield stun + shield hit lag in full, they didn't negate these at all. Shield damage, shield pushback and shield drop frames were negated.

Also jump is usually considered a standard out of shield option, which shouldn't be affected by shield drop frames, are you saying that jumps have shield locking + shield drop frame requirements?

 

[Pikabunz]

You couldn't walk/dash out of a power shield in Brawl either.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

However, in Brawl power shields applied shield stun + shield hit lag in full, they didn't negate these at all. Shield damage, shield pushback and shield drop frames were negated.

Also jump is usually considered a standard out of shield option, which shouldn't be effected by shield stun, are you saying that jumps have shield locking + shield drop frame requirements?

I didn't realize that Brawl powershields still incurred shieldstun; I'll fix that.

I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't Jump immediately after shielding when blocking with a normal shield, either. As far as I know, there are no special limits on that other than the buffer input priority stuff I mentioned a while back (can only buffer one command at a time; Special > Shield > Attack > Jump).

 

[Shaya]

You couldn't walk/dash out of a power shield in Brawl either.

Buffering it was pretty iffy, but the amount of time before you could dash or move from a power shield was less than 7 frames.
Like, if you would input dash the frame shield stun ended, you would either roll or "start walking" a little bit afterwards.

In practice Brawl Marth was all about dash fair and dash dancing blade punishes from power shields. Theory/numbers from my understand were backed up in practice by frames/numbers too.

Example: well spaced MK fsmash was around -10 on shield and outspaced dancing blade, but with a power shield dash db would work. Very close to him and shield drop db from a normal shield wouldn't be fast enough either (DB was 4 frames start up).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, I can confirm that you can't walk or dash earlier than normal with a powershield in Smash 4.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm sure you can't move at all till after the shield drop frames are over.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Perhaps you were still sliding from the walk/run before perfect shielding, Shaya.

As for Smash 4 powershielding, there are likely little option selects that can come from this, where you spotdodge or roll if you don't powershield something, and you do an attack of choice if you manage to powershield something. This is technically doable on normal shields, too, but avoiding the seven shield drop frames and shield pushback makes it much more rewarding on a powershield.

For example, press -> within three frames -> unpress -> + as Jigglypuff. (I'd probably roll the Control Stick in a quarter-circle motion, but, you don't have to.) This would make you roll away if you haven't shielded an attack and would Rest after shieldstun. Yes, there are vulnerable frames on spotdodges and rolls, but I'd say that it's pretty low risk, high reward.

 

[Shaya]

I could be going insane/misremembering things over these years, but nearly anything and everything I ever "knew" about game mechanics in Brawl was self-tested in frame advance. So when things like marth's fast fall forward air being -3 on shield would be power shielded by Falco and would hit Marth's landing power shield in practice, the numbers involved make sense.

That would mean the years of Larry power shield dash attacking in Brawl was either something you could do back then (maybe still possible?) or he was abusing some game-warping glitch. Heck, the guy was known for buffering dacus out of a power shield for punishes.
While the sliding from walking/dashing would definitely help, if power shields gave no benefit to movement, then power shielding Falco's lasers in Brawl was virtually a wasted effort, although walk power shield walk repeat was a staple requirement in handling him (and I knew the exact distance I needed to be at to power shield a Falco laser and then dash forward air or DB him).

Times like these I wish I still had access to all my notes / recordings that I made during the Brawl era. Gah at failing hard drives #_#

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're walking forward and powershield while holding Forward in Brawl, would you Shield SDI the hit?

 

[Pikabunz]

That would mean the years of Larry power shield dash attacking in Brawl was either something you could do back then (maybe still possible?) or he was abusing some game-warping glitch. Heck, the guy was known for buffering dacus out of a power shield for punishes.

You can dash attack after shield. It's just that the dash attack will come out after the 7 shield drop frames though even after power shielding. 7 frames is so small that it can seem like it's not there.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So I was messing around the other day with some techniques that I learned in Brawl. There is one thing that all slide techniques have in common and it is going from a lot of momentum to a neutral state. With that said I found a slide technique. Whether it is new or not I do not know. I am in the middle east right now so my knowledge on what is going on with smash at the moment is very limited.
However, in the case that this is not know I am going to go ahead and ellaborate. Also, if it is not known I am coining the tech as; Pivot Cancel.
Here it is and here is why it works.

TL:DR here:
Dash in one direction> pivot into the opposite direction> hold for a split second> quickly return the analog to a neutral state> perform an attack that does not cancel the slide for maximum effect
The result should be a slide. Perform with Diddy Kong, Wii Fiot Trainer or Tink for best result (other characters have good slides too).

Now what is happenning here? You are in fact canceling your dash. If you slow the game down to 1/4 you can see the dash start and then cancel.
So it is the full momentum of a dash put into a neutral position.
For those of you who think that this is a very slow tech perform with Sheik just to see how fast it can be on some characters.


THIS IS NOT A WAVE DASH!
I cannot stress this enough. Wave dash allowed you to combo, slide out of shield, end a dash with a sliding attack while going forward and rapidly repositioon yourself. As an added bonus it moved you faster than a dash on some characters.


What is it good for?
If someone is preparing an attack or is about to land on the stage while attacking you can perform this to back away and slide in with a (hopefully) safer option such as Diddy Kong's dtilt or a sliding neutral grab.

What is this not good for?
Jabs, as awesome as it would be sliding jabs if not spaced correctly will make you cry. Take Meta Knight for example. He has a very good Pivot Cancel and his jab does not stop or slow his momentum. The bad part is, if you use his jabs you will slide through the opponent and the will end up behind you. One minute you are slicing up Ike, the next you eat a fsmash from behind.


Trouble shooting:

I am not sliding... what am I doing wrong? Well first off every characters timing is different for the most part. If you learn Pivot Canceling on one character does not mean you have learned it on every character.
One thing is that you could not be holding the analog in opposite direction long enough.
Another reason is that your character could just suck at it. Take Bowser for example, he straight up cannot perform this technique.

Does this transfer into airiel momentum like Moon Walking with Falcon in Melee? This is momentum from a dash, that same momentum can be achieved simply by dashing and jumping. This tech has nothing to do with the air.

Thank you for reading and happy smashing with this tech.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I was messing around the other day with some techniques that I learned in Brawl. There is one thing that all slide techniques have in common and it is going from a lot of momentum to a neutral state. With that said I found a slide technique. Whether it is new or not I do not know. I am in the middle east right now so my knowledge on what is going on with smash at the moment is very limited.
However, in the case that this is not know I am going to go ahead and ellaborate. Also, if it is not known I am coining the tech as; Pivot Cancel.

Is it this? This is effectively the same thing as Squirtle's shellshifting in Brawl.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ Lavani , do you know if the sixriver frame data lists the minimum time it takes to do a "natural" follow-up, like Jab2? I see numbers like "+6" in parentheses on those, but I'm not exactly sure if that's what it's suggesting.

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani , do you know if the sixriver frame data lists the minimum time it takes to do a "natural" follow-up, like Jab2? I see numbers like "+6" in parentheses on those, but I'm not exactly sure if that's what it's suggesting.

That is what the parantheticals indicate. Some other unique transitions may be indicated in the notes sections (i.e. Rosalina jab3→jab1) but it doesn't seem like sixriver has all of these noted (Lucario's jab1 and jab2 have transitions back to jab1 before the FAF that glitch the attack graphics and stack the aura visuals, for example).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do freshness bonus and stale moves affect the amount of shield damage?

EDIT: After using Mac F-Smash ten times in a row in Versus, I can confirm that staleness, at least, affects the amount of shield damage. I would assume that since it's just affected by damage dealt that freshness bonus affects it, too.

After using DK Forward-B ten times in a row in Versus, I can confirm that added Shield damage is not affected by staleness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario Neutral-B can only eat four items on any one use.

 

[Ulevo]

So I discovered something interesting with Meta Knight. If you run off the ledge and fast fall while performing an up air, he will auto snap to the ledge instantly. This likely has to do with the position his hurtbox is positioned relative to the ledge during the attack. Has anyone else noticed if other characters can perform something like this?

 

[Doval]

I could be going insane/misremembering things over these years, but nearly anything and everything I ever "knew" about game mechanics in Brawl was self-tested in frame advance. So when things like marth's fast fall forward air being -3 on shield would be power shielded by Falco and would hit Marth's landing power shield in practice, the numbers involved make sense.

That would mean the years of Larry power shield dash attacking in Brawl was either something you could do back then (maybe still possible?) or he was abusing some game-warping glitch. Heck, the guy was known for buffering dacus out of a power shield for punishes.
While the sliding from walking/dashing would definitely help, if power shields gave no benefit to movement, then power shielding Falco's lasers in Brawl was virtually a wasted effort, although walk power shield walk repeat was a staple requirement in handling him (and I knew the exact distance I needed to be at to power shield a Falco laser and then dash forward air or DB him).

Times like these I wish I still had access to all my notes / recordings that I made during the Brawl era. Gah at failing hard drives #_#

I'm fairly sure you couldn't run/dash out of a perfect shield in Melee nor Brawl, but there are still two small advantages. First, since you have to hold the shield a minimum number of frames, if you narrowly miss a perfect shield you'll have to wait until frame 10 before you can actually drop it, which can add 1-5 more frames. The perfect shield let you drop shield immediately. Second, since a perfect shield cancels the knockback, you'd have to cover less ground.

Shield stun is so low in both Brawl and Smash 4 that I'm dash attack ought to work in a lot of cases even if you can't do it directly out of a perfect shield.

 

[robinpup]

multijab cancel? is this posible with sheik or kirby? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm8Z--kvQSs

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't see why it wouldn't be.

 

[LawofDeath]

Since there's no such thing as priority... no, there isn't a list.

An energy based move has priority over most attacks so instead of colliding it has priority over it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

An energy based move has priority over most attacks so instead of colliding it has priority over it.

That's not true. Lots of energy attacks clank like normal, such Lucario's Aura Sphere.

If I recall correctly, a move can't be clanked with if it doesn't have a hurtbox, like Falco lasers, which makes sense, because there's nothing for you to hit.

 

[LawofDeath]

That's not true. Lots of energy attacks clank like normal, such Lucario's Aura Sphere.

If I recall correctly, a move can't be clanked with if it doesn't have a hurtbox, like Falco lasers, which makes sense, because there's nothing for you to hit.

I did't say it was impossible but you can have say Mario's neutral air cancel an energy based attack now can you?

Also I heard that if you pummel someone during a grab it decreases the knockback of a quick grab-throw.. Is this true? I've never heard of this but from the friend that told me made it sound like it's a well known-mechanic for years.

 

[Doval]

That's not true. Lots of energy attacks clank like normal, such Lucario's Aura Sphere.

If I recall correctly, a move can't be clanked with if it doesn't have a hurtbox, like Falco lasers, which makes sense, because there's nothing for you to hit.

No, lots of things without hurtboxes are clankable (e.g. swords). There's a specific property on the hit box that determines if it can clank or not - when it can't, the move is said to have transcendent priority. (There are other situations where two moves may fail to clank, like an aerial hitting a ground move, but that shouldn't be confused with being transcendent - non-transcendent aerials can still hit non-transcendent projectiles.)

When two clankable moves collide, the difference in their % is what determines whether they clank or one move wins. E.g. Samus's charge shot is clankable but at full change few characters have moves sufficiently strong to clank it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, lots of things without hurtboxes are clankable (e.g. swords). There's a specific property on the hit box that determines if it can clank or not - when it can't, the move is said to have transcendent priority. (There are other situations where two moves may fail to clank, like an aerial hitting a ground move, but that shouldn't be confused with being transcendent - non-transcendent aerials can still hit non-transcendent projectiles.)

When two clankable moves collide, the difference in their % is what determines whether they clank or one move wins. E.g. Samus's charge shot is clankable but at full change few characters have moves sufficiently strong to clank it.

You're right about swords; not sure what I was thinking, heh.

That said, what transcendent attacks have hurtboxes?

 

[NickRiddle]

You're right about swords; not sure what I was thinking, heh.

That said, what transcendent attacks have hurtboxes?

ZSS's dash-attack

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I guess now that I think about it, there's also that special property where some grounded moves effectively act like aerials (can clank and keep on going). Mac's Jabs and tilts all do that.

 

[LimitCrown]

The Mii Swordfighter's Gale Strike and Mewtwo's jab have similar properties, too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When you do a Ledge Jump, most actions cannot be buffered, meaning you have to wait a frame before doing an action.

Apparently, you can buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump with a Grab input. This puts the item hitbox out on the same frame you become vulnerable.

EDIT:

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I'm investigating the power shield option select, and am curious about the inputs for a roll out of a run. I'm finding that the inputs for the option select (for ZSS, this would be for boost kick) would look like...

-> + -> + -> +

Right now, I'm finding that doing this out of a run requires me to return the control stick to a neutral position (while I hit shield) and then forward again to input the roll. I'm trying to map out all the option select varieties available to me, and figured it'd be good to characterize doing this out of a run or not. Thanks in advanced!

 

[Pmush]

So Zero Suit's footstool infinites from Brawl were an oversight. Glorious.
(Only other character who could do them were Ice Climbers and Diddy Kong, the latter may be still able to).

If there is no SDI on the down smash, laser or footstools (i.e. no control from the opposing player at all) it's a problem. There's also a chance it's weight dependent.

I saw a video on it, it can only be used on robin. DLC characters were not tested.

 

[Shaya]

I saw a video on it, it can only be used on robin. DLC characters were not tested.

This was patched out a while back I'm pretty sure =)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just for reference, here is the first frame of Ledge Jump vulnerability for the whole cast:

http://imgur.com/a/80K1J

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I couldn't find a video showing and explaining the effects of crouch canceling, so I decided to make one.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Grounded wavebounce Neutral-B. This is rather hard to do consistently, but it could potentially give some characters legitimate wavedashes backward if the Neutral-B can be canceled without shielding (which I know Sheik can do, for instance).

 

[KanjiGames]

Grounded wavebounce Neutral-B. This is rather hard to do consistently, but it could potentially give some characters legitimate wavedashes backward if the Neutral-B can be canceled without shielding (which I know Sheik can do, for instance).

Did you use Smash on the C-Stick?
I did this already right after releasy of the Wii U version bur was quote sure it only works witch C-Stick on attack.
Maybe they changed something on the latest update or the smash stick version is harder to time.

 

[Stylo]

Question on buffering. As Mario, when I spotdodge and buffer shorthop with a quick button press, the window for inputting it is a lot larger than the input for buffering a full hop by holding the jump button. Why is this?

 

[Labernash]

Sometimes I input an aerial out of some other action (OoS, ledge jump, another attack, etc.) and instead of the attack I input with the cstick, it neutral airs. What is the mechanic behind that?

It also seems to happen much more frequently on wifi, so I'm wondering if it's some strange buffer mechanic and I create it in the input lag of a laggier connection.

Someone said that if you input the cstick perfectly in the corner, you nair, but I haven't found that to be the case trying to recreate it. I can't ever recreate it on purpose at all, it happens randomly mid match (in unopportune times, at that).

Any ideas?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sometimes I input an aerial out of some other action (OoS, ledge jump, another attack, etc.) and instead of the attack I input with the cstick, it neutral airs. What is the mechanic behind that?

It also seems to happen much more frequently on wifi, so I'm wondering if it's some strange buffer mechanic and I create it in the input lag of a laggier connection.

Someone said that if you input the cstick perfectly in the corner, you nair, but I haven't found that to be the case trying to recreate it. I can't ever recreate it on purpose at all, it happens randomly mid match (in unopportune times, at that).

Any ideas?

I believe if you buffer an aerial directly from some states, it "eats" the directional input. If you mash an aerial after falling off the stage from a Rapid Jab, you'll get a N-Air, even if you were holding a direction the whole time and even if you don't use the C-Stick.

I think something specifically C-Stick related is that if you're holding a direction and press a different direction with the C-Stick on the frame before an aerial could come out, it will negate all directions and give you a N-Air, too.

Of course, there's also the fact that pressing the C-Stick down and away will register as a Neutral-A input in general, but I figure that's not what you mean.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Some ledge drop differences; not all ledge drops are created equally.

Can be hit by the average D-Tilt/D-Smash: Bowser Jr., Charizard, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Falco, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Link, Kirby, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordsman, Olimar, Pac-Man, Pikachu, R.O.B., Rosalina, Sonic, Toon Link, Villager

Can only be hit by moves hitting under the ledge: Fox, Ganondorf, Ike, Little Mac, Lucario, Lucas, Ness, Palutena, Peach, Robin, Roy, Sheik, Shulk, Wario, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus

Basically cannot be hit by a grounded opponent: Bowser, Captain Falcon, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Mewtwo, Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, Ryu, Samus