Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Pyr]

I did something that I can't really replicate.

My goal was to fall off, double jump, and back air. Thanks to my ****ty spacing, it'd never of hit, BUT I screwed up and did an instant bair instead. I can't replicate it. May be a hidden gem? Or something already known? Maybe it has an application somewhere? Who knows.

Most likely I did the Bair frame-perfectly once I fell of, causing me to technically land on the platform instead of falling off.

Issue is is that I can't replicate this at all. This might have applications if I can figure out the inputs to replicate it, but I can't seem to do so.

Here's a video of it, along with slow-mo of it occuring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMJJ2XFbZkc

Also, I'm 99% sure that, if you input an A or B action in the first frame or 2 while going off a ledge, it cause you to jump instead. This is regardless of the action used, saved for a select few, like Sheik's Up-B. Sheik up-B's when doing it, causing it to act like she jumped before using it (which she, of course, did).

Edit: Figured it out. If you are directly next to the edge and facing away, dashing off and Bairing on frame 1 will cause this. Testing to see which characters this works with. It DOES generate a hitbox.

 

[Pikabunz]

I see Pikachus do this a lot by accident when they're trying to do a fall off bair to gimp characters recovering from below. I didn't know other characters could do it too. For Pikachu it sucks, but it probably has some uses for other characters. The easiest way to do this with Luigi is to roll towards the ledge so that you're facing towards the stage, then run off-stage and immediately bair with c-stick. There's no double jump needed.

 

[Pyr]

Ya. Figured that out right when you posted. =p

Tested with Bair only.
Works with:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Pikachu (no hitbox)
Doc Mario


ALL characters generate a hitbox near the ledge when this is done (save Pika. Sorry Pika =( ) . Almost all characters can drop in a straight line down when this is done if they aren't listed above. This excludes ROB, due to his Bair and it's functions. Miis not tested. Villager does as well, but the projectile doesn't actually hit anything because the stage stops it. Only the initial frames hit. Works only on solid platforms.

Was really hoping for something more... Applicable. But hey. Even the smallest of options isn't the worst thing in the world to have. Except for Peach and Pikachu.

 

[Ffamran]

Question: can the buffer system be messed with by certain moves with little or set hit stun like Falco's default Blaster? It might just be people button mashing or panic pressing, but it always seems weird when a move hits and someone ends up doing something they don't want to do. And I still don't know why Falco's lasers can cause people to just slide off the ledge like that... Probably because it has no horizontal or vertical knockback to let the ledge grab timer reset, right? This video is why I'm asking: https://youtu.be/oa3IiqYs7FQ.

 

[Ikes]

-snip, I am so dumb and forget to read dates and what page im on-

 

[LawofDeath]

Anyone have a list of priority moves of Smash 4? Which has most priority and which has the least?

 

[NickRiddle]

Since there's no such thing as priority... no, there isn't a list.

 

[topspin1617]

So I was just reading how DI apparently hasn't been fully restored to how it used to be... but apparently now you do like regular DI for vertical launch and Vectoring for horizontal launch?

I guess a confirmation that this is true would be nice, but I'd really like an explanation for it. It seems like totally different mechanics depending on launch angle, and I'm trying to understand why it would be programmed like that, and if that's in fact true, where is the cutoff point where vectoring stops working and DI takes over?

Can anybody explain all of this as a result of some larger, prevailing mechanic that's going on?

 

[Ulevo]

So I was just reading how DI apparently hasn't been fully restored to how it used to be... but apparently now you do like regular DI for vertical launch and Vectoring for horizontal launch?

I guess a confirmation that this is true would be nice, but I'd really like an explanation for it. It seems like totally different mechanics depending on launch angle, and I'm trying to understand why it would be programmed like that, and if that's in fact true, where is the cutoff point where vectoring stops working and DI takes over?

Can anybody explain all of this as a result of some larger, prevailing mechanic that's going on?

DI is still in the game exactly how it was in previous iterations. The only thing that makes the system different is there is a mechanic that overlaps with DI that makes you fly farther if you hold up and fly less when you hold down. The consequence of this means that you do not want to hold up because while it will change your trajectory to an ideal angle, the surplus of knock back is not worth it and will either kill you just as quickly or quicker than had you not DI'd. Holding down also is not ideal in most situations for the reverse reason; the reduced knock back is counter-balanced by the angle positioning you closer to the blast zone, along with putting you in a poor stage position below the edge line.

So essentially you always want to DI towards the stage when being sent sideways because holding in will still influence the trajectory since there are no true horizontal trajectories in this game (they all go at angles) and it will not add to the knock back. For vertical hits, you want to hold left or right depending on which will alter your angle to the side the most.

 

[topspin1617]

DI is still in the game exactly how it was in previous iterations. The only thing that makes the system different is there is a mechanic that overlaps with DI that makes you fly farther if you hold up and fly less when you hold down. The consequence of this means that you do not want to hold up because while it will change your trajectory to an ideal angle, the surplus of knock back is not worth it and will either kill you just as quickly or quicker than had you not DI'd. Holding down also is not ideal in most situations for the reverse reason; the reduced knock back is counter-balanced by the angle positioning you closer to the blast zone, along with putting you in a poor stage position below the edge line.

So essentially you always want to DI towards the stage when being sent sideways because holding in will still influence the trajectory since there are no true horizontal trajectories in this game (they all go at angles) and it will not add to the knock back. For vertical hits, you want to hold left or right depending on which will alter your angle to the side the most.

That actually makes a lot of sense... though the flat up/down to increase/decrease launch distance is a strange mechanic imo.

As far as vertical launch, I assume it's the case that angling with DI has been tested to be more effective than holding down to shorten the launch distance (according to what you wrote, the latter should do something, right?)?

 

[Lavani]

My understanding is that launch angles in the 80-100° range operate under normal DI mechanics and holding up/down does nothing to affect knockback strength.

 

[Trifroze]

Posted this in a somewhat unrelated topic so I'll drop it here as well:

Not sure if this is known, but it's something I noticed today. All dthrows I've tested cap at 41 frames of hitstun, being cancellable with an airdodge, jump or attack on frame 42 at about 40% where it caps. After that though, jumping or attacking out of hitstun becomes increasingly slower until at least 150% (highest I tested). For example at 120% you can airdodge from Falcon's dthrow on 42, jump on 49-51 (heavier characters seem to be able to jump earlier) and attack on 47. The airdodge and attack frames seem to be the same with every dthrow but the jumping frame changes a little bit and for some reason heavies are able to jump earlier than lightweights.

Other moves usually have more hitstun, but they work with similar logic where jumping or attacking out of them is slower and slower the higher you go. Makes sense considering airdodge is the most dangerous option while jumping is the safest, however attacking is somewhere between those. Really makes moves like ZSS' down b too good for escaping setups.

This is also the reason training mode combo counter is broken. It only stops counting combos once you're able to jump or possibly attack out of hitstun even though you can airdodge before that, making it more unrealiable the higher the % is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My understanding is that launch angles in the 80-100° range operate under normal DI mechanics and holding up/down does nothing to affect knockback strength.

Well, there's still a property where crouching before getting hit reduces knockback, right?

 

[Lavani]

Well, there's still a property where crouching before getting hit reduces knockback, right?

Yeah, crouch cancelling is definitely a thing. Holding up or down against vertical launches without crouching (say, during a taunt or when hit airborne) won't have any effect on knockback or trajectory on versions 3DS 1.0.4 and later though.

 

[Shaya]

Really makes moves like ZSS' down b too good for escaping setups.

Shhhhhhhhh.
Can't let knowledge spread on how many broken things flip jump does before patches stop.
(You pick this up pretty quickly in ZSS dittos, fortunately ZSS is mobile enough to make that a poor choice on read)

And this is actually a pretty interesting discovery. Is hit stun capped in this regard for other things?

 

[DungeonMaster]

All dthrows I've tested cap at 41 frames of hitstun, being cancellable with an airdodge, jump or attack on frame 42 at about 40% where it caps. After that though, jumping or attacking out of hitstun becomes increasingly slower until at least 150% (highest I tested). For example at 120% you can airdodge from Falcon's dthrow on 42, jump on 49-51 (heavier characters seem to be able to jump earlier) and attack on 47. The airdodge and attack frames seem to be the same with every dthrow but the jumping frame changes a little bit and for some reason heavies are able to jump earlier than lightweights.
This is also the reason training mode combo counter is broken. It only stops counting combos once you're able to jump or possibly attack out of hitstun even though you can airdodge before that, making it more unrealiable the higher the % is.

Who did you test this against @ Trifroze - as in what is your target? Some characters definitely have more hitstun frames of animation at the end of their knockback, allowing for more combo potential. Compare say ROB vs. Villager. Or D3 vs. Samus. Rob and D3 are very easy to get true combos to register on, the flop around in the air for many frames. Villager and Samus are very tough to true combo, they have like 1 frame at the peak of their hitstun and then are back in control.
I find this is less noticeable on small impact vs. large impact. So combos from Samus up-air as a starter are tighter than those from dash attack and the combos coming from Up-tilt and D-air. The former are also audibly different, with a "bash" sound whereas the later produce that ungodly "smack!" (that I love).

 

[Trifroze]

Hitstun is directly related to knockback. Heavies actually receive less hitstun than lightweights if they're at the same percentages because they also receive less knockback due to their weight. Dedede gets comboed hard because he has a high falling speed which affects the vertical distance he travels, a large hurtbox and since he's heavy combos work on him for a longer time. Falcon actually gets comboed the second hardest in this game after Dedede, harder than DK and Bowser, due to similar attributes (falling speed, weight and hurtbox are the biggest factors). Villager, Yoshi, Samus etc avoid combos because their falling speed is low, making them fly a further distance vertically. This type of distance is unrelated to knockback and thus doesn't increase hitstun at all so they escape combos easier.

 

[Syde7]

Can anyone point me to a link or something of the sort that details how both the rage mechanic and stale moves work in this game? For the rage mechanic, I'm looking specifically to see how the effect scales as percentage moves up. Looking for something similar for stale moves, specifically looking to see the decrease in KB as the move is higher in the queue + fills up more slots in the queue.

Like I said, just need a link to this information (it doesn't even have to be 100% accurate, just reasonably close). Raw data is fine, I don't mind interpreting & organizing for my usage.

Thanks a bunch in advance.

 

[Jaxas]

Can anyone point me to a link or something of the sort that details how both the rage mechanic and stale moves work in this game? For the rage mechanic, I'm looking specifically to see how the effect scales as percentage moves up. Looking for something similar for stale moves, specifically looking to see the decrease in KB as the move is higher in the queue + fills up more slots in the queue.

Like I said, just need a link to this information (it doesn't even have to be 100% accurate, just reasonably close). Raw data is fine, I don't mind interpreting & organizing for my usage.

Thanks a bunch in advance.

Can't help with rage, but I have my old research thread on Stale Moves (data gathered back on the 3DS demo, so things maaaaay have changed - unlikely though).

 

[LimitCrown]

The highest possible value for the total stale-move negation multiplier is between Melee and Brawl's values, if I recall correctly. I wasn't able to determine the exact values for each part of the queue, though.

 

[Syde7]

@ Jaxas & @ LimitCrown ty both

 

[Mirax96]

I think I discovered a new, easier input for the Pivot Smash/ Retreating Smash for 3DS and Controllers without a Right Stick, or the Right Stick mapped to something that is not a Smash Attack:

Am I the Slowpoke or...?

 

[NickRiddle]

That's kinda why they put that feature in~

 

[Mirax96]

You say? It wasn't that obvious for me (and enough other users I showed it), plus i didn't see any guide referring to this...

 

[NickRiddle]

That doesn't change the fact that it's why it was put in. A+B is much easier than slamming the stick on a 3DS.

 

[Ffamran]

You say? It wasn't that obvious for me (and enough other users I showed it), plus i didn't see any guide referring to this...

Try to at least use the search bar next time. It's been discovered a month ago: http://smashboards.com/threads/easy-pivoting-discovery.399253/.

 

[Mirax96]

That doesn't change the fact that it's why it was put in. A+B is much easier than slamming the stick on a 3DS.

Yeah, i know, but i'm talking about the pivot Smash attack, not the Smash attack alone.
And it's not referred only for the 3ds, but for any controller without the c-stick, or with the c-stick mapped to something else than a Smash Attack.
Is this specific input for this specific action already discovered?

Try to at least use the search bar next time. It's been discovered a month ago: http://smashboards.com/threads/easy-pivoting-discovery.399253/.

In the Post you linked, they show pivoting alone...
What I showed in the video is pressing A+B after changing a direction after a Dash... An easier input for the Pivot Smash, not a way to do Perfect Pivoting.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Accidentally found new tech--

If your character has a wall jump and you get ledge trumped, you can cancel your ledge trump animation by inputting a wall jump on the first frame. You can buffer the wall jump command, too, so it's not hard to do. IASA on wall jumps appears to be Frame 1 (or very close to it), so you don't miss a beat and can punish opponents trying to ledge trump you or just get on-stage relatively safely.

EDIT: This appears to be both character-specific and stage-specific. I can't get it to work on Smashville at all, and Villager can't do it on the stage it initially happened on (Omega 75m), but Greninja and Falcon can.

EDIT2: I think I found the cause. Ledge trumps can be canceled by wall jumping, but most of the time characters' feet are too far away or you can't wall jump that high on a stage.

You can do it on Duck Hunt (the stage, not-Omega form) with Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Greninja, Little Mac, Lucario, Mario, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Pac-Man, Samus, Sheik, Sonic, Toon Link, and Zero Suit Samus. (The characters that cannot are Diddy Kong, Duck Hunt, Falco, Fox, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer.)

On Omega 75m, it appears that only Falcon, Greninja, and ZSS can do it. There are likely other Omega stages this works on, but I'm not going to test every single one.

EDIT3:

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah, i know, but i'm talking about the pivot Smash attack, not the Smash attack alone.
And it's not referred only for the 3ds, but for any controller without the c-stick, or with the c-stick mapped to something else than a Smash Attack.
Is this specific input for this specific action already discovered?

Yes, it's obvious that it would work.
It's only important on the 3DS because New 3DS and every other controller scheme has a c-stick that, by default, does the same thing.

 

[Mirax96]

Yes, it's obvious that it would work.
It's only important on the 3DS because New 3DS and every other controller scheme has a c-stick that, by default, does the same thing.

Well... There's the Mote+Nunchuck...
Anyway, i got it.
I just don't see that much people talking about the new alt. input atm.
Thanks...!

 

[Ulevo]

How does port priority work in Smash Wii U?

 

[David Viran]

I don't know if this is known but I guess this is the right place to put it. In training mode using the 1/4 speed and stop feature I found that if you sheild an attack at the last second but not a PS than you actually take longer for you to start dropping your sheild than usual. Natural oos options are the not changed tho. I'm thinking this is from the frames where you are locked into sheild carrying over after sheild stun but I thought it didn't do that.

 

[Lavani]

I don't know if this is known but I guess this is the right place to put it. In training mode using the 1/4 speed and stop feature I found that if you sheild an attack at the last second but not a PS than you actually take longer for you to start dropping your sheild than usual. Natural oos options are the not changed tho. I'm thinking this is from the frames where you are locked into sheild carrying over after sheild stun but I thought it didn't do that.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this, because I was starting to worry I was imagining things. It really seems to me like the minimum shield hold time still applies even when shielding something if you fail to powershield, shield dropping after a jab seems to take way longer post-hitlag than you'd expect the shieldstun to imply if you really could act immediately.

Though granted I never looked at it frame-by-frame or really even made much of an effort to check it, but it certainly didn't feel like the minimum shield hold time could be bypassed without powershielding.

 

[Shaya]

That would be an interesting game mechanic change (from Brawl) that would make a hell-of-a-lot of sense over all this time of "why is punishing things so inconsistent?"

I wonder if that means 11 frames of shield hold is maintained or it's reduced if you're hit...
The idea that you're punished for attempting to power shield kinda sucks....

 

[Big O]

I don't know if this is known but I guess this is the right place to put it. In training mode using the 1/4 speed and stop feature I found that if you sheild an attack at the last second but not a PS than you actually take longer for you to start dropping your sheild than usual. Natural oos options are the not changed tho. I'm thinking this is from the frames where you are locked into sheild carrying over after sheild stun but I thought it didn't do that.

You are correct. The minimum shield duration carries over even when your shield is hit. It was assumed to not be the case, but anyone with 2 controllers can easily confirm that blocking a move right after the powershield window expires causes you to drop your shield later than usual. You can still jump cancel/roll/shield grab at the same time as usual. However, you will drop your shield up to 6 (7?) frames later than usual when you shield too early, but not early enough to powershield.

 

[Shaya]

This one simple thing may drastically change how I play / understand the game.
As someone who strives for power shield punishes / reacting in general, now knowing that me not getting the normal jab or tilt out of shield wasn't me being terrible at life is... yeah. There's a lot for me to think about.

This idea of block strings is more of a real thing too... wow. Like gah, you're adding up to 8 more frames of "shield stun" then you previously would....

Does the 11 frame lock not include shield stun?

 

[Big O]

This one simple thing may drastically change how I play / understand the game.
As someone who strives for power shield punishes / reacting in general, now knowing that me not getting the normal jab or tilt out of shield wasn't me being terrible at life is... yeah. There's a lot for me to think about.

This idea of block strings is more of a real thing too... wow. Like gah, you're adding up to 8 more frames of "shield stun" then you previously would....

Does the 11 frame lock not include shield stun?

The 11 frame lock isn't reduced by hitlag or shieldstun as far as I can tell. Basically, shieldstun is applied after the 11 frame minimum time is achieved and shieldhitlag extends this timer for as long as it lasts.

I'm also pretty sure it was like this in Brawl, but it didn't really matter because it added on like 3 extra frames tops.

 

[Shaya]

I probably spent more hours in frame by frame hack in Brawl than I'm willing to admit / is remotely healthy.
Unless that paradigm messed up the 'shield lock' (it removed buffering so it wouldn't be too farfetched), hits on shield would allow drops when shield stun ended.
Something about Falco's jab here is ringing memories.

But either way, that 'duration' being doubled would have noticeable effects on most people's timing.

 

[Lyserdon]

I posted about this earlier in another thread, but I think this is the proper place to bring it up. It seems like we're finally coming to a workable consensus on HOW to survival DI hits, but the game mechanic theory underlying it most would agree seems strange at best, and unnecessarily inconsistent at worst.

Has anyone tested if airspeed affects the horizontal knockback reduction achievable? If it does, then maybe we're not seeing a brand new mechanic after all, but rather a change in the engine that allows drifting inputs while in knockback, adding your drift velocity vector (which can only be 0 or 180) to whatever knockback vector you're receiving.

If nothing we already know rules this out and further testing supports it, it'd make the mechanics of survival DI make a lot more sense to me from a game design perspective, and could potentially allow for further refining of the optimal methods of avoiding the blast zones (for instance, when getting hit mostly horizontally, maybe the ideal response is to DI up toward the corner upon coming out of hitstun, then, once your trajectory is set, you start drifting directly toward the stage.

I can't test at will since I don't have a copy of the game, but if anyone thinks it's worth checking out, it should be relatively straightforward to test.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Apologies if this has been answered earlier in the thread, I was not able to find an answer, but does anyone know exactly how many frames of invulnerability one has when using the generic standing get-up from the ledge, and if the amount of invulnerability frames you have getting up decreases once you hit a particular minimum percentage value, such as 100%, 150% and so on.

I noticed someone made the claim and tried to find confirmed information on it with no luck, so I did some personal recordings but am finding it difficult to tell through animation playback alone.