Lucas Stage Discussion Thread - Rediscussing: Castle Siege

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol, looks like ZMan has Norfair periods... well at least G&W get's gayed by all the banned stages he's good on

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So, I was doing friendlies with my friend who mains ROB and I won the first match on SV. Afterwords he was being a d-bag and CP'd me with Yoshi's Island, it was a really close match but I won by u-smashing him. The only reason I state this is because I discovered my own mindgame with u-smash. Since u-smash doesn't have user hitlag, I hit a shy guy and it extended the hitbox. However, my friend was using visual clues from Lucas' body to try to "safely" f-air me from the ledge, but he was hit by the "phantom" u-smash. I just wanted to throw this in, to try to help people that have problems with Yoshi's Island

/Bump

 

[cloudenvy112]

So, I was doing friendlies with my friend who mains ROB and I won the first match on SV. Afterwords he was being a d-bag and CP'd me with Yoshi's Island, it was a really close match but I won by u-smashing him. The only reason I state this is because I discovered my own mindgame with u-smash. Since u-smash doesn't have user hitlag, I hit a shy guy and it extended the hitbox. However, my friend was using visual clues from Lucas' body to try to "safely" f-air me from the ledge, but he was hit by the "phantom" u-smash. I just wanted to throw this in, to try to help people that have problems with Yoshi's Island

/Bump

That's a good trick. I have found sometimes that the hitbox is extended for some strange reason. I tend to stay away from the Usmash during a match simply because I can get punished. I KO sometimes with it because of my rarity with it. Is that a mindgame within itself? An unexpected Usmash?

 

[cloudenvy112]

Norfair


Pros:
- camping and attacking are various options
- thundersliding can be used on multiple platforms
- Lucas's air game becomes a valuable asset
- High ceiling
- opponent can be pressured by Lucas's attacks and lava
- well-placed smashes can win the match quickly
- Bair spike is possible
- 6 recovery spots
Cons:
- Lucas can be easily spiked
- projectile opponents can camp
- lava cannot be PSI-M'd
- recovering at high percentages becomes extremely difficult
-lack of space and large platforms
-recovery will be predictable

Counterpicks - Falco, King Dedede

Bans -

Notes: Norfair is a good and bad stage for Lucas. His air game and smashes will become useful, but it will be harder to perform them due to lava and lack of space. Most of Lucas's tricks are definitely usable here. Spamming and camping characters will have the advantage of Lucas. His mistakes can easily be punished here and recovery will be an issue if your opponent keeps you off the stage. However, many recovery options and locations are available on this stage.

Rating: 4/10?

 

[Tokaio]

Norfair


Pros:
- camping and attacking are various options
- thundersliding can be used on multiple platforms
- Lucas's air game becomes a valuable asset
- High ceiling
- opponent can be pressured by Lucas's attacks and lava
- well-placed smashes can win the match quickly
- Bair spike is possible
- 6 recovery spots
Cons:
- Lucas can be easily spiked
- projectile opponents can camp
- lava cannot be PSI-M'd
- recovering at high percentages becomes extremely difficult
-lack of space and large platforms
-recovery will be predictable

Counterpicks - Falco, King Dedede

Bans -

Notes: Norfair is a good and bad stage for Lucas. His air game and smashes will become useful, but it will be harder to perform them due to lava and lack of space. Most of Lucas's tricks are definitely usable here. Spamming and camping characters will have the advantage of Lucas. His mistakes can easily be punished here and recovery will be an issue if your opponent keeps you off the stage. However, many recovery options and locations are available on this stage.

Rating: 4/10?

Your cons are all wrong imo. First of all, Lucas can be spiked during his recovery on any stage. If at all, Norfair actually helps him from being punished from this because of the plentiful recovery options. Yes, opponents with projectiles can camp, but usually we can outcamp them, except a few. Snake is one of these who can outcamp us. If we just stand on those two top platforms, chances are his grenades will beat our PK Freeze/ PK Fire. Not being able to heal ourself from the lava is not a con. No character can do anything that heals themself from lava. Actually, lava is a pro and a con. Lava limits our space, so that means it limits our recovery chances and boosts the chances of gimps, but the D-smash in the capsule is too good. "recovering at high percentages becomes extremely difficult" - yes, our recovery require us to stand still, so if the opponent can knock us off the stage, then we'll have to sacrifice a hit, but usually this doesn't happen because of our tether recovery. Lack of space and the large platforms is again not really a pro but not really a con. Our D-smash takes up quite a bit of space. If we catch them with it when they're shielding, chances are they'll fall off the platform, giving us time to recover to avoid a punishment. However, chars like Snake with his U-tilt that takes up half the platform. The platforms make it much easier for people like GW and Snake (again) to techchase. Recovery is always predictable.

Your pros look fine, except that Lucas' air game isn't the best. His ground game is much better than his air game. He doesn't have much range on his moves, and his moves can easily be punished if you're predictable. Also, I don't think thundersliding is possible. I'm not sure about this one. But wouldn't you end up either thundersliding off the stage, or thundersliding on the platform, off the stage?

Overall, you'll listing the pros, but especially the cons of Lucas, not of the stage overall. Norfair is one of the best Lucas stages out there. I would say 9/10...8/10 at the least.

Also, welcome to the boards

 

[cloudenvy112]

Your cons are all wrong imo. First of all, Lucas can be spiked during his recovery on any stage. If at all, Norfair actually helps him from being punished from this because of the plentiful recovery options. Yes, opponents with projectiles can camp, but usually we can outcamp them, except a few. Snake is one of these who can outcamp us. If we just stand on those two top platforms, chances are his grenades will beat our PK Freeze/ PK Fire. Not being able to heal ourself from the lava is not a con. No character can do anything that heals themself from lava. Actually, lava is a pro and a con. Lava limits our space, so that means it limits our recovery chances and boosts the chances of gimps, but the D-smash in the capsule is too good. "recovering at high percentages becomes extremely difficult" - yes, our recovery require us to stand still, so if the opponent can knock us off the stage, then we'll have to sacrifice a hit, but usually this doesn't happen because of our tether recovery. Lack of space and the large platforms is again not really a pro but not really a con. Our D-smash takes up quite a bit of space. If we catch them with it when they're shielding, chances are they'll fall off the platform, giving us time to recover to avoid a punishment. However, chars like Snake with his U-tilt that takes up half the platform. The platforms make it much easier for people like GW and Snake (again) to techchase. Recovery is always predictable.

Your pros look fine, except that Lucas' air game isn't the best. His ground game is much better than his air game. He doesn't have much range on his moves, and his moves can easily be punished if you're predictable. Also, I don't think thundersliding is possible. I'm not sure about this one. But wouldn't you end up either thundersliding off the stage, or thundersliding on the platform, off the stage?

Overall, you'll listing the pros, but especially the cons of Lucas, not of the stage overall. Norfair is one of the best Lucas stages out there. I would say 9/10...8/10 at the least.

Also, welcome to the boards

Thanks for the help on that, I had a hard time coming up with the pros and cons. And I thought about the thundersliding thing as I finished posting it but was too lazy to try it. I don't play on Norfair too often so I can't really tell whether or not it is a good stage for Lucas. Again thanks for the help. I thought this guide was about Lucas's pros and cons on Norfair and not the stage itself. I'll do better on that.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This thread is starting to sadden me...

 

[Veril]

Why bother discussing a stage that is generally banned due to how easy it is to plank on?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Because all other stages that aren't Banned/CP's are already discussed.

 

[Veril]

That makes me sad.

Who are you btw?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Basically one of the active Lucas mainers that helps the Lucas boards alot (such as the new MU thread). But I'm mostly into the Workshop stuff, mostly detailed textures and lurking...

 

[Veril]

Word. I was wondering whether you changed your Alias, since you've got a green name, and whether I know you from back when I used to care about this sub-forum.

 

[prOAPC]

DI+Zair recovery ftw!

 

[Tokaio]

Why bother discussing a stage that is generally banned due to how easy it is to plank on?

Norfair should not be banned. I think it's the only one out of the CP/Banned that should be legal. There's a reason why there is a ledge grab limit. Besides, it's one of Lucas' best stages, we really should discuss this. But we do need to move on ._.

 

[Ono]

Okay...so I really have not been updating. There isn't much discussion going on =/. But we might as well finish all of the Counter/Banned stages since we're almost done.
Green Greens...I really have no idea what to say for this stage. Don't go in the space between the main platform and the little ones. If you get caught in there, wait for a bit and PKT2 when you're out of the narrow space. Small blastzones means early kills.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol, Necro bawmp.

Anyway, to not get infracted:
This stage is quite awkward to say the least. It has probably one of the lowest boundries of the stages. It's really hard for Lucas to utilize this and planking would be really awkward for Lucas to do. Honestly, the direction of the stage boundries isn't all that good for Lucas. However, the column's of falling bricks can help Lucas' Camping alot. PKT and PK Freeze become decently effective here. Our opponet is forced to approach us most of the time when we camp the sides. They are usually forced to approach from the air meaning that we can get kills with U-smash (which kills at stupidly low percents on this stage). If you can't U-smash them (lol) then pivot grabing a lot of approaches to b-throw should kill them at good percents. U-air should also kill pretty well on this stage when used correctly.

Tips about the stage in general:
Frame Traps FTW
When you're DI'ing either Airdodge through the falling bricks or SDI away from them. You shouldn't be johning that you got killed by a brick when you could have airdodged it.
That being said for most people to get over the brick they will probably be air dodging over the bricks. Did someone request for the D!ck?

I'd also like to metion that since PKT2 has invincibility on part of it, it can blow up those blocks pretty safely and you end up grabbing a ledge for more invinciblity. You can then procede to the center part to do CQC against your opponet.

Anyway, I kind of like this stage :3

Too bad it's banned everywhere, people are pansies that can only play on flat stages...

 

[Yink]

Hey, Hey Lucas mains?

For Luigi's Mansion you might want to ban that if you're playing against Snake, just a thought you'd want to know.

Thanks.

 

[Chuee]

I'd rather ban Halberd.

 

[Yink]

I'd rather ban Halberd.

Then you play some terrible Snakes.

I realize Lucas does very well on LM, but so does Snake, in fact I'm putting money down saying it's his best and favorite stage.

Why?

-Hard to see some of his stuff
-He can go grenade happy
-C4s are placed well
-Mines are placed well
-He pretty much rules the bottom floor
-Kind of hard for you to camp
-Don't go to the second floor, utilt **** or Usmash ****
-He can tech EVERYTHING

 

[Chuee]

On the bottom floor he can't kill you. On halberd he can kill you at least 10% earlier with Utilt.
Most snake's go Halberd if it's not banned.

 

[Yink]

On the bottom floor he can't kill you. On halberd he can kill you at least 10% earlier with Utilt.
Most snake's go Halberd if it's not banned.

I know about this already, and rPSI and I just talked about it.

And he can kill you on the bottom floor, all he has to do is rack up your damage on that floor, then grab you, release and utilt.

And, that's all I'm going to say, because I don't run this thread. I'll leave it up to you.

 

[Chuee]

Grab release utilt don't work lad <.<

 

[Ono]

Grab release utilt don't work lad <.<

But U-tilt covers the whole freakin' stage.

Anybody else care to give some input on this stage?? It'd be helpful, considering only 1 person did ._.

 

[Joker490Frozen]

Grab release utilt don't work lad <.<

I have done this multiple time so I'm pretty sure it works >.<

As for Luigi's Mansion I think you are better off on Halbert sure Snake can kill ez there but in Mansion Snake can live forever and if you stay on the bottom your only approach is pretty much on the ground and Snake can control the bottom with nades, mines and C4 and the ceiling makes it hard to jump over them actually the explosion can cover it.
Halbert just gives you more space to work since Snake will have to worry about Lucas coming from above instead of just straight forward <(^.^<)

 

[Chuee]

I've done this MU too and I've escaped the Utilt plenty of times. Also see FOW vs DSF. In one of the matches FOW escapes the utilt.

 

[Yink]

I've done this MU too and I've escaped the Utilt plenty of times. Also see FOW vs DSF. In one of the matches FOW escapes the utilt.

You're still missing most of his points. Joker KNOWS you can DI out of it.

Please, go into detail on why Halberd is better than Luigi's Mansion.

 

[Chuee]

Halberd makes his broken kill game more broken.
LM makes his camping worse. I can really just camp behind the pillars and his grenades can't touch me at all.

 

[Joker490Frozen]

^Well actually Snake can get rid of them pretty quick he can easily trow a nade up top plus one at the bottom and once that side of the Mansion is broken you are pretty much open sure there's still the other side but chances are that Snake will already have either a mine or C4 on that side so you are pretty much stuck on the other side which is now half of FD >.<

 

[Chuee]

LM is hardly ever legal.
End of discussion.

 

[Yink]

Nice job Joker. I agree.

So what if it's hardly ever legal? You should still now what to do.

 

[Chuee]

I'd still ban Halberd because 90% of good snakes would always go Halberd if it isn't banned.

 

[HelpR]

banning halberd is always the smart choice against snake.

so what exactly are we up to here? green greens is obviously not the topic of discussion, however, we should still discuss it. Even if a stage is counterpick/banned, some regions are behind the curve, and losing a tourney because you didnt knew the stage and an opponent did is ridiculous, it's better to still know the stage somewhat.

green greens, I dont have much experience on, does anyone have anything to add onto what rocket psi said? or should we move onto another stage like port town.

or, we could do characters. let's try nd keep this topic from dieing off if possible. lol

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I go by rPSI >_> (hence the avatar)

 

[HelpR]

I WILL REFER TO YOU AS I PLEASE.

but i choose to refer to you as rPSI.

but because it's my choice.

 

[briarsauble]

Dis thread bettta stay alive XD

 

[Levitas]

Stop letting this thread die, guys >:U

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright ima post on this stage cuz it is of great importance now that it is legalized by the MLG ruleset which has my area infected.

This stage sucks for Lucas. Ban this stage against MK and GW. Lucas can hardly do anything right on this stage. Do not get in the middle of the stage cuz it will lead to ****. The falling blocks mess with our camping game and the blocks that just sit there as well. Plus if we are using PK Freeze or PKT when the wind is blowing we may be pushed off the stage and we die cuz we are in the middle of using our recovery moves. (Yes I am using PK Freeze in the recovery sense cuz after we use it in air we can do nothing else) Which reminds me Recovery is hard on this stage as well.

Though it isn't hopeless. We just have to be agressive on this stage. And Baiting with our moves can help. Though imo I am NEVER CPing this stage for Lucas.

However if your into nutrition for you Lucas this stage has a helpful portion of Apples to gather, eat, or throw at your opponents. Green Greens = + for the healthy Lucas.

If this thread dies -___- i won't be suprised due to the very bleak activity in these threads.

Btw LM should be banned against Zelda. She freacking ***** us on that stage. The only helpful advice against Zelda on that stage is the break all the pillars. The reason she ***** on this stage is because she can rack us in damage on the first floor with her Usmash. It's hard to DI out of cuz it traps us on the ceiling and while we are trying to get up or roll dodge away we are trapped by another Usmash. Also her Uair can get us on the second floor. I say try and bait her to the roof or run around knocking out the pillars with Nair, Dair, PK fire, Dtilt, or any good move really. Though LM is not a CP so if we are discussing random stages I vote for 75m cuz that is just fun ;P

For Green Greens I say give it a 4 or 3. >_> I really dislike this stage and it's possible the dumbest new CP in the MLG ruleset cuz it's obvious other characters will do alot better here than others.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Btw LM should be banned against Zelda. She freacking ***** us on that stage. The only helpful advice against Zelda on that stage is the break all the pillars. The reason she ***** on this stage is because she can rack us in damage on the first floor with her Usmash. It's hard to DI out of cuz it traps us on the ceiling and while we are trying to get up or roll dodge away we are trapped by another Usmash. Also her Uair can get us on the second floor. I say try and bait her to the roof or run around knocking out the pillars with Nair, Dair, PK fire, Dtilt, or any good move really. Though LM is not a CP so if we are discussing random stages I vote for 75m cuz that is just fun ;P

LM is sometimes a CP actually. (rarely though)

I wouldn't ban it against Zelda at all. Most people would be ***** by the U-smash, but the truth is, Lucas is one of the very few (cough, only Ness and Lucas) who can actually DI Zelda's U-smash down, but you have to do it for the first one. If you do DI it down, grab her and u-throw to d-tilt lock. Zelda can't camp Lucas so staying on the sides is viable. It's really easy to get the lead and camp them to death there.

 

[#HBC | J]

wow really huh. Hmmm i was trying to DI to the side and it kept me getting caught.

Though LM isn't a CP in offline tournies now due to the MLG rules. Though for Online tournies LM is a common fav for cps so you are right on that one. Still I dislike the stage against Zelda and Zelda's tend to CP there if it is available. I just reccommend not going to it. Since it probably is 1 of Zelda's better stages. *shrug* Though against Zelda I go around break all the pillars then say "Now bring it *****" >: )

Which stage would you ban against Zelda then?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Which stage would you ban against Zelda then?

Shiek stages. :V