Lucas Stage Discussion Thread - Rediscussing: Castle Siege

[Ono]

Hey guys, well I was hoping we could a get a stage discussion thread going. If there is a stage discussion thread that I missed when i searched the boards, then you can just lock this.

Basically, if this works out, we'll be discussing one stage, and list the characters which could be a counterpick or a stage strike for them. Eventually, we'll get a list of counterpicks and stage strikes. The ratings will be out of 10, and we'll list the pros and cons about the stage. I know there is Tyr's amazing guide with specific character + stage discussion, but hopefully, this will go a bit faster. I am always open to suggestions for next stage discussions. Also, don't just look at the OP. I won't be listing all the tricks mentioned, just the important ones. So, look at the actual discussion if you have time. If you guys see any errors that I've made, please tell me.

Remember that these are only general outlooks on how Lucas does on stages. Counterpicking takes much more thought in to their style of playing, etc. I recommend watching The Art of Counterpicking Stages

Current Discussion: Gray
Finished Discussions: Pink

All stage discussions will be starter, counterpick, or counterpick/banned stages based on SBR Recommended Rule List v2.0. Here it is:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Norfair

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Onett
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

Format:
-Title of stage
-Pros: The advantages of this stage, and why you should pick it
-Cons: The disadvantages of this stage, and why you shouldn't pick it
-Counterpicks: Who you should pick this stage against
-Bans: Who you should ban this stage against
-Notes: Thoughts on this stage. They usually contain some tricks that you could use on the stage
-Rating: The rating of this stage. Out of 10
-Video: Our fellow Lucas' matches, showing the tricks and advantages of the stage, or disadvantages of the stage
-Post #: The number of the post the discussion starts on

_________________________________________
Stages

Neutral

Final Destination

Pros:
-Allows for effective camping
Cons:
-Lack of platforms
-Flat terrain (making it easier for chaingrabs)

Stage Strike - Diddy Kong, Falco, King Dedede

Counterpicks - Game and Watch

Bans - Diddy Kong, Falco

Notes about Final Destination - The lack of platforms makes it harder for Lucas to recover, and he is not able to thunderslide for a surprise attack. Never take someone who can outcamp you here, or whose projectiles you can not absorb. You should ban this stage against chaingrabbers such as Falco/Dedede. Otherwise, it's a decent stage for Lucas, and try to work towards getting it in the stage strike system.

Rating - 7/10

Discussion starts on: Post #4


Battlefield

Pros:
-Platforms
Cons:
-

Stage Strike - Game and Watch, Marth, Snake

Counterpicks-

Bans-

Notes about Battlefield - A basic stage...nothing really to it. Platforms are always good for Lucas. Thundersliding, U-smash, U-air, PK fire dropping techniques, reducing chaingrabs. D-smash is good if you're on the platform and the opponent is under you. Another good neutral stage.

Rating - 8/10

Discussion starts on: Post #60


Yoshi's Island

Pros:
-Middle platform
Cons:
-The edges of the stage can prevent PKT2
-The ghost platforms can prevent PKT2
-The terrain messes up with your PKF
-The shy guys can block your PKF

Stage Strike - Falco, Lucario, Marth, Metaknight, Pit

Counterpicks -

Bans - Lucario

Notes about Yoshi's Island - This is one of Lucas' worst stages. Alot of things can mess with your recovery. Sometimes the edges cancel out your PKT2, sometimes you bounce of the edges, and sometimes the ghost platform just decides to pop up at the wrong times. The terrain messes with your PKF, and the shy guys can prevent them from going anywhere. The only good thing is the platform. It tilts every once in a while, and can make Thundersliding go longer/shorter. Stage strike this stage first, unless there is an obvious stage strike for a different player (e.g. Diddy/Falco)

Rating - 4/10

Video - prOAPC vs. Snes (DK)

Discussion starts on: Post #113


Smashville

Pros:
-Moving platform
Cons:
-Flat terrain can be annoying for campers, and chaingrabbers.

Stage Strike - Diddy Kong

Counterpicks -

Bans -

Notes about Smashville - This is my favorite neutral. First, let's talk about the moving platform. It creates some weird effects with Thundersliding, and D-smash is hilarious on it. You can go on the edge and D-smash, and if you D-smash in the direction it's going, you can sometimes hit the opponent 3 times in a row. The only bad thing is Snake and his stupid C4. Flat terrain is annoying for characters who can outcamp you, and chaingrabbers.

Rating - 8/10

Discussion starts on: Post #142



Starter/Counter

Note: I'm removing all of the starter/counter stages from stage striking, except Lylat Cruise, and PS1. Those are the more common ones that you see at tournaments.

Castle Siege

Pros:
-
Cons:
-The recovery issues with the edges on the 1st phase
-Grab release and chaingrabs can easily lead to death b/c of walkoffs on the 2nd phase
-Pillars block PK fire, making camping harder on 2nd phase
-Tilting messes with autocancelling and recovery on the 3rd phase

Counterpicks -

Bans -

Notes about Castle Siege - Watch out for the edges on the 1st phase. They mess with Lucas' recovery. On the 2nd phase, the walk-offs are deadly for Lucas. They can automatically lead to a death because of his laggy ground break, and chaingrabbers. The pillars block Lucas so it prevents him from camping, but you can D-Smash them for some mindgames, as they extend the duration of the hitbox. Try platform camping while occasionally PK firing. On the 3rd phase, the tilting becomes an issue with recovery and autocancelling. Overall, a bad stage for Lucas.

Rating - 5/10

Discussion starts on: Post #40


Halberd

Pros:
-Able to go through the moving platform for easier recovery, and less gimping
-Platform for thundersliding, U-smash, etc.
-Wide space for camping (ship)
-Edges are good for wallhugging (ship)
Cons:
-Edges sometimes get in the way of recovering (ship)
-The huge space of the ship = long chaingrabs

Counterpicks - Lucario

Bans - King Dedede, Snake

Notes about Halberd - On the moving platform phase, you are able to jump/PKT2 through the platform, making recovery much easier. The platforms on both phases help by enabling you to thunderslide, and make U-smash and U-air easier to land. On the ship, the edges are good for wallhugging, but they sometimes get in the way of recovery if you don't angle the PKT2 right. The wide space makes it easier to camp, but allows for long chaingrabs. Overall, another good stage for Lucas.

Rating - 8/10

Discussion starts on: Post #50


Pokemon Stadium 1

Pros:
-Moar platforms!
-Possible F-tilt locks on Fire/Rock
Cons:
-Wall infinites
-Weird ledge screws up recoveries
-Messed up terrain on the Fire/Rock/Water phases make you bounce off during PKT2

Stage Strike - King Dedede

Counterpicks - Pit

Bans -

Notes about Pokemon Stadium 1- This stage has messed up terrain, so counterpick against annoying campers such as Pit. F-tilt locks are possible, but that also means that wall infinites are possible, so ban against Dedede. Learn to tech the windmill in the Water phase, since you can survive high percents that way. On the Rock phase, wall infinites are everywhere. If someone like D3 wants to infinite you in those narrow spaces, just PKT1 chase in there. Also, watch out for the right ledge. You can't roll to the left or something, so watch out for tech chases there.

Rating - 6/10

Discussion starts on: Post #93


Lylat Cruise

Pros:
-3 platforms
Cons:
-Tilting

Stage Strike - Game and Watch, Lucario, Pit, Snake

Counterpicks -

Bans - Pit

Notes about Lylat Cruise - Unfortunately, this is another bad neutral for us . The tilting messes with everything, PKF, PKT2, and autocancelling. U-tilt can't go through the platforms. There are larger blastzones than usual neutral stages.
Strike it, it's another bad neutral.

Rating - 4/10

Discussion starts on: Post #127


Counter

Rainbow Cruise

Pros:
-Lucas' recovery
Cons:
-Lucas' air game

Counterpicks - Falco, Snake

Bans - Game and Watch, Metaknight

Notes about Rainbow Cruise - Experience is the key to this stage. You should learn the mechanics of this stage because it is a decent counterpick for those who don't have many, such as Snake. Lucas gets around easily on this stage with his zap jumps and his magnet pulls. However, the downside is Lucas is better on the ground than the air because of his poor air game.

Rating - 7/10

Discussion starts on: Post #27


Jungle Japes

Pros:
-Middle platform (look at notes for more details)
Cons:
-Grab release --> Klaptrap

Counterpicks - King Dedede, Marth, Snake

Bans - Falco

Notes about Jungle Japes - Just control the middle platform. If the opponent camps on the right, send a PK freeze over to them. If they shield, then they will be knocked onto the edge. This gives you time to run over and do whatever. You can thunderslide all over the place from the top middle platform. It'll land you on the edge. It's pretty much an invincible attack. It's almost impossible for one to get back on the stage once they get knocked off the left side of the middle platform and any further left. Just PK thunder, and they'll get hit back into the water. With snake you gotta hit him with the head, but chars like jiggz, you gotta use more of the tail. You can also get alot of easy Dsmash KO's on the left side. If you get knocked into the water, you can easily zap jumpo to gain height and have PKT2 as another recovery option, though you shouldn't need it. Thanks to ~Pink Fresh~ for the description . The klaptraps come everytime on the right side of the stage when there is a 7 in the ones digit (i.e. 7:57, 7:47, etc.), so watch out for the infinite grab release ---> klaptrap. It happens to me a surprising amount.

Rating - 9/10

Discussion starts on: Post #31


Frigate Orpheon

Pros:
-Platforms on both phases
Cons:
-No ledge on the right side of the 1st phase
-2nd phase isn't good for PKF, SH nair, and grab
-Moving platforms on the 2nd phase can cause recovery mess-ups

Counterpicks -

Bans -

Notes about Frigate Orpheon - Make sure you listen for the siren on this stage because it can create recovery issues if you get caught under the stage, so make sure you jump! On the 1st phase, there is no right ledge, so try to hit people off that edge so you can punish them later. The moving platform can cause a short "infinite" chaingrab/wall lock on characters so watch out for that. On the 2nd phase, watch out for the moving platforms because they can come out right when you're recovering, and cancel out your PKT. I suggest reading Amazing Ampharos' post about the mechanics of this stage, calledFrigate Orpheon mechanics..

Rating - 6/10

Discussion starts on: Post #67


Pokemon Stadium 2

Pros:
-U-smash cancel on conveyor belts on the Electric phase
-PKT2 is like a thunderslide, F-smash + D-smash on the Ice phase
-Possible F-tilt locks on Ground phase
-Platforms on Electric, Ground, Ice, and Neutral phases
Cons:
-Air stage >_>

Counterpicks - Diddy Kong, Lucario

Bans -

Notes about Pokemon Stadium 2 - The neutral phase is simple. Again, platforms help us. Basically, you can do some things on each phase (Look at pros). The air stage is annoying for us. Although you can PKT1 camp while they're in the air, it messes up our SHPKF, and our auto-cancelling. Fortunately, it messes others up too. So you should counterpick this stage for those who have great air game, or counterpick against those who you don't think that they have much experience on.

Rating - 7/10

Discussion starts on: Post #75


Delfino Plaza

Pros:
-More platforms!
-Able to go through the moving platform for easier recovery, and less gimping
-Possible F-tilt locks
Cons:
-Walkoffs
-Possible infinites

Counterpicks -

Bans - King Dedede, Marth

Notes about Delfino Plaza - Yet again, more platforms. Watch out for the walk-offs. Walk-offs are deadly for Lucas because other characters usually have more of an advantage with them. Watch out for the water. Powerful spikes such as Ike's and Ness' will own you in that section. But, if you happen to get the player in the water, then you can always PKT1 chase a bit. Some walls on some of the phases, meaning F-tilt locks.

Rating - 7/10

Discussion starts on: Post #86


Brinstar

Pros:
-Rugged terrain prevents things like chaingrabs
-Lava helps recovery
Cons:
-Forces characters to fight in the air

Counterpicks - Everyone except those who are mentioned in Notes.

Bans -

Notes about Brinstar - This is one of the best stages if not the best stage for Lucas. The terrain of the stage ruins chaingrabs and grab releases. Lava helps recovery if you screw up PKT2. The goop can be used for lagging U-smashes and D-smashes for some mindgames. You can go through the stage in case of bad positioning for recovery. Just don't go through the pink goop. There are small walls there so you can bounce off them and fall. The only bad thing is it favours those who fight in the air, and Lucas' air game isn't the best. We recommend you do not take DK, Wario, Lucario, MK, Snake, or Peach there. Wario, Lucario, and Peach have great air game and own on that stage. DK, and Snake are complete powerhouses and kill you easily because of the small blast zones. MK is has great air game and his D-smash is a killer.

Rating - 9/10

Discussion starts on: Post #100


Pirate Ship

Pros:
-Platforms?
Cons:
-Water

Counterpicks -

Bans - Ike, Ganondorf, Wolf, Olimar

Notes about Pirate Ship - Water isn't the best for Lucas. His Dair spike is weak, and Bair spike is hard to pull off in the water. You can try a Fair to push the people closer to the ship, or a sourspot Bair. This stage in general is, I find, annoying. The bombs just blow up right in your face, the low gravity is annoying, and that thing that flings you gets in the way. You can F-tilt lock when the ship is sunken. You can also try to B-throw camp when that red ship comes.

Rating - 5/10

Video -

Discussion starts on: Post #121

Pictochat

Pros:
-Allows for effective camping
Cons:
-Some drawings can create wall infinites, such as the whale.
-The 2 eyes with the line drawing has no edge on the right side
-Infinite edges like on Yoshi's

Counterpicks -

Bans - Diddy Kong

Notes about Pictochat - Pictochat is more of a fun stage IMO. The infinite edges are annoying, since they can prevent PKT2, and some character's like Dedede can infinite chaingrab you during some of the drawings. Watch out when the drawing with the 2 eyes and the line comes. If you happen to be off the edge, on the right side, then you can't grab the ledge. There's a pretty high ceiling, so it helps against vertical killers.

Rating - 6/10

Discussion starts on: Post #131


Counter/Banned

Luigi's Mansion

Pros:
-D-throw --> Dtilt lock setups (Look at video for heytallman's setups)
-D-smash + U-smash mindgames
-Mad combos on this stage
Cons:
-Characters like DK can live up to absurdly high percentages

Counterpicks -

Bans -

Notes about Luigi's Mansion - Luigi's Mansion allows for you to live for extremely long percentages. As long as you DI and tech correctly, you can usually live very long if the house is up. You can combo like mad on the bottom floor. You can pull off multiple U-tilts, and even setup Dtilt combos (Look at Video). The pillars help you refresh your moves, so you can do 10 quick Dtilts, and all your moves are refreshed. Also, you can use the pillars to elongate your D-smash and U-smash.

Rating - 8/10

Video: HTM's Lucas tilt lock setups on Luigi's Mansion

Discussion starts on: Post #145


Norfair

Pros:
-Many platforms
-Capsule lol
-PK Freeze camping
Cons:
-

Counterpicks - Falco, King Dedede

Bans -

Notes about Norfair - Norfair is one of the best stages for Lucas. Unfortunately, it's usually banned. There really is no reason for it to be banned. All the hazards are easily avoidable. The 6 platforms give us many options for recovery. Also, because of the large space, we can PK freeze camp. The capsule is usually a pro for Lucas. If you can manage to get a D-tilt lock going on, it can last for quite a while. Also, you can D-smash in the capsule, and the opponent goes flying everywhere. Lava isn't too good for us...it limits our recovery options and boosts the chance of us being gimped. The other opponent can camp to an extreme amount, because of the number of ledges, but we can easily avoid that, but just throwing a PK Freeze there from afar. Overall, one of Lucas' best stages, and a great counterpick.

Rating - 9/10

Video:

Discussion starts on: Post #154


Green Greens

Pros:
-Kill at low percents
-Makes it easy for Lucas to camp center
Cons:
-GR infinites against walls

Counterpicks - ROB, Diddy Kong

Bans - Anyone with Dash Regrab out of GR, Game & Watch, Snake

Notes about Green Greens- Green greens can be a great stage for Lucas in many ways. Lucas has a pretty easy time camping the center platform against several characters such as ROB and Diddy Kong. Lucas also gets really early kills here with all his smashes and the blocks help to make the smashes last longer. The addition of many walls also makes tech-chase into U-smash very feasible here. One thing to note about this stages is to make sure that if you're attacking that there are no bomb blocks next to you. Also make sure that when you DI, you airdodge above the blocks to make sure you don't get hit by a bomb block. However, this is not one of Lucas' best stages due to one reason. A lot of characters can simply grab him and wall infinite him against the blocks. They just have to dash regrab into the blocks and Lucas can do nothing. Another interesting aspect of this stage is the wind. This can makes certain moves much more safe on shield depending on where you stand when you do them.

Rating 6 /10

Discussion starts on: Post #175


Here is the order of Lucas' best stages to his worst:
Jungle Japes: 9/10
Brinstar: 9/10
Norfair: 9/10

Battlefield: 8/10
Smashville: 8/10
Halberd: 8/10
Luigi's Mansion: 8/10

Final Destination: 7/10
Delfino Plaza: 7/10
Pokemon Stadium 2: 7/10
Rainbow Cruise: 7/10

Pokemon Stadium 1: 6/10
Frigate Orpheon: 6/10
Pictochat: 6/10

Castle Siege: 5/10
Pirate Ship: 5/10

Yoshi's Island (Brawl): 4/10
Lylat Cruise: 4/10

 

[Ono]

With the help of RocketPSIence and his MU thread, we're going to start some counterpick discussion. Remember to keep all counterpick discussion in the MU thread and all stage discussion in this thread. Here is RocketPSIence's thread:The Lucas MU Discussion Thread
Current Discussion: Gray
Finished Discussions: Pink

The list we are doing them in is:
Marth
Falco
Meta Knight
Pit
Snake
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy
Lucario
King Dedede
Kirby
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Wario
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Zelda/Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Samus
Fox
Peach
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Luigi
Bowser
Wolf
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Ness
Link
Captain Falcon
_____________________________

Characters

Bowser
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Captain Falcon
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Diddy Kong
Stage Strike - Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1
Bans - Final Destination, Pictochat

Notes about Diddy Kong - The issue with Diddy is bananas. Therefore, counterpick stages that have platforms that get in the way of his 'naners. During the stage striking process, Battlefield would be ideal for you. FD and SV are just flat and so aid in his banana game. For counterpicks, Brinstar is by far the best counterpick you can get. The terrain messes up his bananas, the platforms can get in the way, and the pillars block his bananas if he throws them off stage. PS1 has lots of terrain for him to work around. The only thing you need to worry about here is banana locks. Bans should be obvious. Flat terrain = ban.

Donkey Kong
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Falco
Stage Strike - Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise
Bans - Final Destination, Jungle Japes

Notes about Falco - The issue with Falco is his lasers and chaingrab. So, flat terrain works better for Falco. Therefore, FD is definitely a no. The Flaco will probably strike Lylat as it is his worst neutral, so strike Yoshi's since it's a bad stage for you.
For counterpicks just pick stages that would disrupt his chaingrab and lasers. Brinstar, Norfair, and Rainbow Cruise fall in that category.
Bans are obvious. Even though JJ is a good stage for us, it's a better stage for Falco. He can laser camp, use illusion tricks, and chaingrab --> spike --> Klaptrap.

Fox
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Mr. Game and Watch
Stage Strike - Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Final Destination
Bans - Rainbow Cruise

Notes about Mr. Game and Watch - Platforms help GW alot. Nair camping below, D-throw tech chase, and D-throw --> D-smash is pretty bad on a platform. Because of this, You should ban stages where platforms are. Thus, Lylat and BF. Lylat is just a bad stage for us in general, and GW can plank under the stage using Nair. BF because of platforms. Brinstar is the best Lucas stage there is. The smaller blastzones help by easier killing because of his lightweight, and the lava helps you recover if you happen to get gimped. Final Destination is your next best bet. It's just flat terrain, and he can't do much here. Rainbow Cruise is definitely a no no. He absolutely ***** on this stage.

Ganondorf
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Ice Climbers
Stage Strike - Final Destination, Lylat Cruise/Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks - Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Brinstar
Bans - Final Destination

Notes about Ice Climbers - I think that these stage choices are fairly straightforward. Ice Climbers camp like mad. FD is DEFINITELY out. Strike and ban it. The counterpicks disrupt IC's chaingrabbing, if you happen to get caught by them.

Ike
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Jigglypuff
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

King Dedede
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium 1/Final Destination
Counterpicks - Norfair, Jungle Japes, Brinstar
Bans - Delfino Plaza, Halberd

Notes about King Dedede - We all know that King Dedede has a chaingrab. That makes flat terrain extremely painful for us. This also makes walk-offs, and walls dangerous, so watch out for Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, PS1, etc. That rules out all of the Stage Strike, and Bans. You should ban Halberd, because of the long flat stage on the ship, and the fact that there's a low ceiling, making U-tilt kills much easier for Dedede. Norfair and Brinstar both ruin his chaingrabbing alot. Jungle Japes is good because of the high ceiling, and small platforms. Just watch out for D-throw to Klaptrap.

Kirby
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise/Pokemon Stadium 1
Counterpicks - Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Battlefield
Bans - Rainbow Cruise

Notes about Kirby - Kirby is such a versatile character. He doesn't have many counterpicks. Just pick Lucas' best stages (Norfair, Luigi's Mansion). Don't pick JJ because it's one of his best stages. Brinstar allows Kirby to shark like crazy. Rainbow Cruise should be obvious as a ban. Kirby is much better in the air than on the ground. Stage Strike your two worst neutrals. Pokemon Stadium if it's allowed instead of Lylat.

Link
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Lucario
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks - Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 2/Whatever is comfortable for you
Bans - Yoshi's Island

Notes about Lucario - In stage striking, you'll want to strike you're 2 worst neutrals. YI because of the fact that he can wall cling, and it's just terrible for us, and Lylat Cruise because of larger blastzones, and tilting. I would suggest using Yoshi's for your ban. There really is no good counterpick against Lucario. He does really well on the stages we are good on (Luigi's, JJ, Brinstar, Norfair), so Halberd is recommended. The low ceiling helps you kill, but doesn't really work to Lucario's advantage because he can't kill vertically very well. The thing about PS2 is the air stage that messes up his aerial game alot. If both stages are banned, pick whatever is comfortable, just don't pick JJ, Luigi's, Brinstar, and Norfair

Luigi
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Mario
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Marth
Stage Strike - Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Jungle Japes
Bans - Delfino Plaza, Battlefield

Notes about Marth - For Marth, the issue here is that he outranges us in everything, and to boot, he has an infinite grab release that can combo into D-smash. The thing that Marth needs is space, and platforms work out to his advantage more than us.
Brinstar limits his space, and disrupts his grab release. JJ limits his infinite grab release, and there are not many platforms to work around.
In stage strike, Marth isn't bad on any of the neutrals. Battlefield is one of his best stages so that should definitely go. Yoshi's Island is your next best strike, since it's one of Lucas' worst neutrals. Against Marth, I usually try to end up on Smashville. For bans, Delfino is one of Marth's best stages. Lots of platforms for him, and most of the phases are spacious.

Meta Knight
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Your choice
Counterpicks - Final Destination, Pirate Ship
Bans - Rainbow Cruise

Notes about Metaknight - Metaknight has pretty much no bad neutrals at all. Strike Yoshi's, because it's Lucas' worst neutral and possibly his worst stage. Just don't strike Final Destination. Final Destination is the best we do on against him. You can PKF spam here, and there are no platforms for him to renew his jumps if he happens to Dair camp.
You should DEFINITELY ban Rainbow Cruise against MK. It's just too good for him. Pirate Ship is a good counterpick because it prevents us from being gimped, except when the ship is in the air. Just watch out for his Dair in the water. He can Dair -> Jump -> Dair -> Jump...and can force you to the blastzone.

Ness
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Olimar
Stage Strike - Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks - Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon
Bans - Luigi's Mansion, Halberd, Delfino Plaza

Notes about Olimar - Olimar can camp extremely well with his Pikmin. Therefore, flat stages are generally good for him. So, strike FD...and Lylat because he can plank like crazy on this stage (Pikmin go through). Because of his tether recovery, we should pick a stage where there is no ledge. RC and Frigate both fall into these categories. Luigi's Mansion is an extremely good stage for us, because he can combo like crazy when the house is up, and he can camp when the house is down. I would suggest Halberd as your other ban (if Luigi's is banned) because of the rather low ceiling.

Peach
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Pikachu
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Jungle Japes
Bans - Halberd

Notes about Pikachu - Since we have PSI magnet, we can nullify his kill move, and his projectile. This means that FD is not as bad for us. Just stage strike your two worst neutrals again. Counterpicks are just 2 of our best stages. Halberd is bad because of the low ceiling

Pit
Stage Strike - Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1
Bans - Lylat Cruise

Notes about Pit - Lylat Cruise is one of the best stages for Pit. The platforms help him land arrows, and it helps him land U-air. Also, the tilting is bad for us. Yoshi's Island is just a bad stage for us in general.
You should counterpick something that would make his massive recovery useless, and prevent arrow camping. Brinstar is the best CP imo. The pillars block his arrows from getting in the way of our PKT2, and his recovery doesn't help because of the small blastzones. Pokemon Stadium is fine too. The terrain of the phases prevent arrow camping, and he can't fly under the stage to stall.

Pokémon Trainer
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Squirtle
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Ivysaur
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Charizard
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

R.O.B.
Stage Strike - Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Norfair
Bans - Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza

Notes about R.O.B. - Nothing much to say...ROB can camp pretty badly on FD. Strike it. ROB's air game is superior to ours, so ban Frigate. Also, he can add some laser bouncing mind games on that stage too. Delfino Plaza is just a really good stage for ROB.

Samus
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Sheik
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Snake
Stage Strike - Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
Counterpicks - Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Bans - Halberd

Notes about Snake - For stage striking, the Snake is most likely going to strike Yoshi's, as it is one of his worst neutrals. Strike Lylat, since it is your other bad neutral, and Battlefield. Battlefield is probably the best neutral for Snake. There are platforms for him to plant his C4 on which go through the platform when exploding. Platforms help him land kills easier, with U-tilt and U-smash, and there is the issue of D-throw tech chase on the platforms.
Jungle Japes is probably your best bet in counterpicks. Although he can camp extremely well on this stage, it's harder for him to kill, especially with U-tilt, because of the larger blastzones. Watch out for the grenades here. They're a bit hard to see. If he bans JJ, then go RC. Snake's aerial game is really bad. This stage forces him to use it, and his C4 is nullified on this stage. The reason why you don't pick Brinstar is the small blastzones. We recommend not picking Norfair. His D-throw tech chase is too good with the small platforms, and his tilts basically cover the whole freakin' platform.
Ban Halberd. Although it's a good stage for us, he can camp extremely well on this stage, especially on the ship, he can grenade bounce on the slanted part for mindgames, and he can take advantage of the small vertical blastzone.

Sonic
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Toon Link
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Wario
Stage Strike - Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks - Pokemon Stadium 2, Norfair
Bans - Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Notes about Wario - Platforms work in Wario's favour. That rules out BF, and Lylat. You can trust Wario will strike Yoshi's as it is his worst neutral. As for counterpicking, Wario really doesn't have any bad stages. Pick PS2 or Norfair. PS2 is a good stage for us, and if we happen to get air stage, it can mess his air game. Fully charged fart on air stage kills him lol. Norfair, we can PK freeze camp, and again it's just another good stage. Bans...RC + Frigate gives Wario the advantage, because these stages favour air.

Wolf
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Yoshi
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

Zelda
Stage Strike - Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Counterpicks - Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
Bans - ??

Notes about Zelda - Zelda is another campy character. Strike FD because of her campiness, and strike YI because it's bad for us. She'll probably strike Lylat. Counterpicks should be obvious...we can punish her teleport on Frigate, and Brinstar is just amazing for us =D. Zelda doesn't really excel in any stages, so just ban the stage, depending on her gameplay.

Zero Suit Samus
Stage Strike -
Counterpicks -
Bans -

 

[Ono]

Might not need it...but another reserve.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Hopefully this one can stay alive. I've been awake for quite a bit of time, so I'll post something. later

 

[Ono]

Final Destination. For Lucas, he can be pretty campy by wavebouncing PK fire, but the flat terrain makes it easy for chain grabbers like D3, IC and Falco. The ledge can be pretty annoying if the opponent pushes you under making it hard to recover.

 

[Tyr_03]

I work toward getting Final Destination as my starting neutral in the stage strike system when I'm going against a character that I know I can camp effectively against. It's a great stage against characters without projectiles (with the exceptions of those who have chaingrabs.) It's a nice place to take Metaknight on your first game because it prevents him from using the air too much. Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Fox, and Ness are other good characters to try to take here off the top of my head. If you can outcamp a character because they have bad projectiles or projectiles which are easy to absorb, this is a good stage to try to get game one on if you can.

You don't want to fight Diddy, Olimar, Falco, Dedede, Ice Climbers or Marth on FD. I usually ban FD against all of these characters.

Lack of platforms makes recovering somewhat difficult. Platforms often work to Lucas's advantage so I generally prefer Smashville to Final Destination since it has a layout which allows you to camp effectively and also use the one platform to your advantage. It is however easier to gimp most characters on FD than it is on Smashville.

 

[HAGGS]

The shallow angle of the underside of the ledges make for nice stage-spiking while recovering w/ Fair, PK-Fire, and U-Air depending on your position.

 

[Ono]

@Tyr: I don't see why you would pick FD as a counterpick for fox since he can outcamp us, and if we try to psi magnet it...he can just punish us.

Counterpicks:Ganondorf, C. Falcon, Pikachu, Ness, Fox?
Bans: Diddy, Olimar, Falco, Dedede, IC, Marth
What about wario as a counterpick? He has no projectiles, and there are no platforms for him.

 

[Tyr_03]

FD isn't a counterpick against Fox but it's a good neutral to stage strike to. If you magnet cancel he cannot punish you. Anytime you use Psi magnet on the ground unless the opponent is literally right in front of you, you can't be punished if you just cancel your magnet by jumping.

Wario ***** on FD. Air camping. Don't take him there.

 

[ZMan]

i strike fd in every tourny set. i hate that stage D:

 

[Ono]

Counterpicks:Ganondorf, C. Falcon, Pikachu, Ness
Bans:Diddy, Olimar, Falco, Dedede, IC, Marth
Everybody good with that??

Rating??

 

[FireKirby7]

Wolf and ROB are annoying on FD too.

Lucas can go under the stage to the other side if you're good with Wavebouncing and stuff.
Also, if you PKT2 towards under the lip of FD at the perfect angle, Lucas will slide up the lip and to the edge. I suggest trying this when you lost your double jump and you're under the edge of FD. PKT2ing towards the edge usually gets me edgegaurded to a death.

 

[soccerdude7200]

I say ban fd against pit... arrow spamming.

 

[Ono]

I thought Lucas could absorb Pit's arrows?

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, he can. He can arrow loop but that doesn't help much either.

 

[soccerdude7200]

well yeah, but we cant realistically sit back all day and absorb the arrows...

 

[HelpR]

final destination is a stage that caters mostly to characters with ranged attacks and chain grabs. for this reason, the question becomes:

can lucas outcamp '______' on this stage.

for most characters it's actually a resounding no, as the only ranged move lucas has is the pk fire, as the pk thunder is a risky attack at close range and is useless at long range (usually peters out after one hit, is blocked, or is hit, any of which screws over lucas.

This stage is the closest thing to neutral in the game, as well as battlefield, and is hardly the largest of the problems that lucas faces on a neutral stage (lylat and yoshi's island both come to mind)

discussing this stage seems kinda of moot honestly, because while lucas has a good range game, it hardly seems justification for using this stage, especially since a good number of the characters lucas has an advantage over on this stage could already be considered to be pretty badly off against the psychic in the first place, and dramatic shifts are only seen on stages like lylat cruise and yoshi's island.

if we're gonna talk about characters who would actually affect the meta game, the star fox team is a good idea to speak about, as characters like wolf can get caught on the edge easily, but he's an exception more then a rule.

of interesting note, fighting a metaknight on this stage can be nightmarish because of his large pursuit capabilities, and if you waste your jump or simply lack skill in pk thunder, he can easily gimp you.

note, this is all out of personal experience, If you guys find any problem with my assessment, i'm open for discussion.

 

[lil cj]

I like FD, its like a playground for Lucas
theres alot of space to be free and move around,
nothin to get in your way
And space is a very good thing for Lucas
Also you can easily magnet pull across the stage no problem
and dtilt lock across the entire stage.
The only downside is theres no platfroms for thundersliding
Other than that I think this is one of Lucas best neutrals if not his best

 

[Ono]

Metaknight is always nightmarish. Metaknight can kill Lucas easily on any stage, it's just probably the best stage to go against, since they're aren't many other options if he bans it except maybe Pirate Ship.

 

[prOAPC]

well yeah, but we cant realistically sit back all day and absorb the arrows...

why not?


i like FD, i take every character there

 

[soccerdude7200]

well im just saying that were eventually gonna have to do something, you know.
Theres time where you just kinda let him shoot his arrows, but somebody eventually has to do something,,,
And sitting there makes for a boring match...

 

[HailCrest]

Doesn't FD have a high ceiling that is bad for lucas' Uair & smash?

Personally I hate the edges; they're wonderful for stage spiking but there comes the occasional time when i get under it, and I PKT2 faceplant into the bottom instead of wallhugging (yes, it was on the left edge).

 

[HelpR]

lucas' up air has never really been all that great, at least not when compared to ness, but that seems to be quite a common part of lucas overall.

his upsmash has always been a bit of a odd attack, in that it has the ability to kill somewhere around 90 uncharged, or fail spectacularly if you manage to sour spot it (if I recall, the sour spot is directly above him, about half a lucas away.) FD does have one of the higher roofs, but it's still much smaller then stages like pictochat, jungle japes, shadow moses and the like

my point here is that lucas really isnt a character too dependent on those two moves, so much as forward smash, down smash, bair, and in some situations, even back throw and down throw. if we're gonna worry about the roof, it should be in comparison to another character whose kills moves are mainly based on roofing. fox comes to mind, but he's a pretty bad example as he usually kills at 100 with an uncharged undecayed up smash anyways on FD, and on slightly higher for the more heavy characters, though DDD, snake, MK, link, zelda, DK, all have moves that are absolutely deadly on the lower roofed stages. point is, that if we're gonna include the roof in the discussion, it should be dependent on who is fighting lucas as he is hardly a character that is dependent on the vertical so much as the horizontal.

 

[soccerdude7200]

you really shouldnt use uair and usmash all that much on fd imo. There are no platforms, which makes both of them harder to land..

 

[Ono]

So, rating 8/10?? or 7/10?

 

[orange/xd]

7/10. You can space with PKF, but it's a chaingrabber's paradise.

 

[Ono]

Okay, done with Final Destination. Next discussion:Rainbow cruise.
This would be a great counterpick for many characters. The obvious ones are Falco, IC, Snake, Ganondorf, Diddy, DK, Olimar. Lucas can magnet pull and zap jump everywhere, helping with his recovery. Ban against: GaW, MK, Marth, Kirby, Wario.

 

[soccerdude7200]

i personally dont like rainbow cruise all that much... It just takes too much to concentrate on moving from spot to spot, but i do agree that it gives us an advantage in some cases because of recovery options.
On the other hand... We dunt hav the greatest aerial game. A lot of our game is on the ground. We can get screwed over aerial wise cuz we cant stay on the ground for too long. Many characters out-prioritize us in the air.
I personally dont think its that great of a stage for us, but that could just be because i dont like it... :/

 

[HelpR]

I actually do agree with soccerdude on this particular stage. while lucas can move around quickly, his air priority is horrid. however, we can easily see that his tether gains alot of use on this stage in particular, but if lucas ends up needing to rely on his PKT2, he can easily get gimped.

this stage is actually pretty decent for lucas, but requires a good amount of practice on it for one to learn how to use each situation.

i.e: if you play on here often, this is a good general counterpick (MK, kirby, and other high air priority characters excluded) however, if you dont, avoid like the plague.

3/10 if you barely play here

7/10 if you play here often.

experience is key

 

[Ono]

I know we didn't discuss RC too much..but my friend would like to know about JJ before a tournament he goes to. So, if you have any more thoughts about the stage, then just post them... So, discuss!

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

JJ is my favorite CP =D

You can take everyone there, minus Falco, DK, and... that's it actually.

Just control the middle platform. If the opponent camps on the right, send a PK freeze over to them. If they sheild, then they will be knocked onto the edge. This gives you time to run over and do whatever. you can thunderslide all over the place from the top middle platform. It'll land you on the edge. It's pretty much an invincible attack. It's almost impossible for one to get bakc on the stage once they get knocked off the left side of the middle platform and any further left. Just ok thunder, and they'll get hit back into the water. With snake you gotta hit him with the head, but chars like jiggz, you gotta use more of the tail. You can also get alot of easy Dsmash KO's on the left side. If you get knocked into the water, you can easily zap jumpo to gain height and have PKT2 as another recovery option, though you shouldn't need it.

This stage is great for lucas. 9/10 to meeee.

 

[HelpR]

I barely play on jungle japes, and I usually have extreme difficulty fighting there, but after reading pink's ideas, I think I may use those specific strategies myself.

 

[lil cj]

Never knew JJ was a good Lucas stage
Thanks Pink
Gonna start using this stage more often

 

[Ono]

Okay, counterpicks? There are quite alot of people who hate this stage. The characters that come to mind are PT, Snake, Marth, Olimar, D3
Bans:Falco, DK, Kirby, Lucario?

Thoughts on the counterpicks/bans?

Thanks for the strategies, Pink. I never really could play on this course.

 

[orange/xd]

Woah, never thought of what Pink said. ^_^

 

[~Nasty~]

Okay, counterpicks? There are quite alot of people who hate this stage. The characters that come to mind are PT, Snake, Marth, Olimar, D3
Bans:Falco, DK, Kirby, Lucario?

Thoughts on the counterpicks/bans?

Thanks for the strategies, Pink. I never really could play on this course.

Is this a bad stage for PT? Ivysaur's Up B shenanigans are too good on this stage, but i'm not too familiar w/ how the others do on this stage.

In addition to the bans list, i would add D3 to it as well because of chain grabs and the grab release > clap trap (spelling?) But then again, i also wouldn't waste a ban on this stage facing a D3 whereas you should ban FD against him.

As for counterpicks, snake is one that comes to mind bc Utilt is hard to kill with. Anyone know how well this stage works against a diddy?

 

[Ono]

PT can't kill at all of this stage. As long as you have good DI, you can survive. Squirtle's main killing moves are U-Smash and D-Throw, since this stage has a huge ceiling, just DI up. Same with Ivysaur...U-air/U-smash/Up-B. Good DI is the key on this stage.

I never thought about D3 that way on this stage. I just thought that he wouldn't be able to chaingrab like mad on this stage. But the high ceiling helps you against his u-tilt. I would just play defensively against him.

Yeah, this stage is a good counterpick. He can't camp that well because of his grenades --> water. And he can't kill with U- tilt. But he still has his overpowered F-tilt, and jab combo.

Hmm, I dont' know about Diddy on this stage. If he falls in the water, it'll be hard for him to recover, because of the narrow openings, but he can peanut camp pretty well, and gimp you with bananas if you try to recover from the rushing water. Thoughts about diddy?

 

[~Nasty~]

Thanks for the clarification Ono. About diddy's peanut camping.. just try and perfect sheild the peanuts. if you can spike him into the water, whether it be a sweet spot or sour spot spike, it'll push him in the water making it hard for him to recover, especially if this happens on the left side of the stage. If he does recover, predict his landing if he misses an edge and punish.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

JJ is a great camping stage for R.O.B. it should be banned against him... it's probably one of R.O.B.'s best stages

 

[Ono]

Okay, next stage discussion, Castle Siege. We will be discussing all 3 phases of this stage. So, disucss!

I hate Castle Siege as Lucas. I usually ban this against characters who have the infinite grab release such as PT's Squirtle and Charizard. The first stage is okay I guess. The edges get annoying when you try to recover though. The 2nd stage is probably the worst because of the walk-offs. You should definitely stay on the platforms in case of chaingrabs/grab releases. The 3rd is the tilting stage. Messes with recovery.