Is SBB ruined?

[firexemblemxpryde]

Wherever there are several people who think they're good at the game, there will be competitive play. However, if the game reaches a level where there are strategies that are just too good to defeat, and everyone in tournament will try to use that strategy, the game's potential of competitive play is crippled.

I'm sure that a lot of people in this thread will agree that brawl is a fun game, and that "omgz it's gonna be like way better than melee IMWO (in my worthless opinion)."

Melee was probably so good because of a variety of accidents. Either that or the designing team were competitive supergods. Ledgecancel, the right amount of comboing, the right amount of "surprise" element, character counters, a necessity for different amounts of technical skill, awesome edgeguard metagame, amazing metaphysics, and overall game fluidity came together to make a game people could play for 6 years.

Matches like this were made possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAmthNm61PA

Now. Back to Brawl. What have the majority of well-respected smashers said about brawl? They say it's fun (and it is, at least for now?) , but that the competitive aspect (as per depth) has been crippled.

Fun fun fun. Last time I played it, I laughed for like 4 hours. A large majority of why I was laughing was about how retardedly easy to to combo in and out of Pikachu's Thunder, but there you go. Brawl gives people who generally wouldn't have a chance against another player/character a new light so that all may be equal. All may be happy. You know, with happy bunnies and happy rainbows.

Sure, that's a bit spiteful, but here's an example of what I mean:

The first time I played the game, it was with people who had played well over 20 hours of it at that time. These people were people who are ranked within the top 5 in my province at melee. As you may have guessed, it didn't mean a thing. After like 20 minutes, I could go match for match with them. I teamed with a Diddy and we didn't lose for like an hour. Like, wth =/ .

-------------------------

Now, I realize it's early into the game. But I recall reading a while back in this thread (and it was well back, there are a lot of Brawl optimists spamming it) that advanced techniques weren't integrated into the game very fast at all.

I call BS. Zcancel was in SSB64, so players at that time were like "mebe it's in melee too omgz wtf it is!" Then, how long do you think it took before people decided to try AIRDODGING INTO THE GROUND? Outrageous. And edgeguarding. That happened since the very beginning of Melee, too, because it turns out it was a transferable skill from SSB64.

Think about it. Almost right since the beginning of melee, Lcancel, edgeguarding, and wavedash. Are those things still being used right now? Uh, yeah.

Where are those things in brawl? Nowhere. =/ Too bad. So instead, what are many people doing?

Placing unfounded confidence in the game and reassuring themselves it will be good.
I tried that. It didn't work.

 

[zeldamaster2006]

Well my points have yet to be debunked, so it still remains that bralw is more then likly to fail. Have u guys read the recent 2 start review....point proven.

Sorry for the double-post but I had to debunk this one as well (which is all anyone is posting, yet you say they haven't been debunked?). The two-star review, if you had read the whole thing like I did, was rated by a guy who obviously hasn't played smash before, has no respect for Nintendo, and only played through the SSE while only noticing the negatives - a sort of hardcore "Halo fanboy" if you will, who then played Brawl as his first Nintendo game and cared to share his comments. If you looked at the people who mattered - Nintendo Power, IGN, and others all rated SSBB 10/10.

Please get your facts right before you come to a forum and tell us that the biggest Nintendo game that I can remember EVER is going to fail because one nobody rated it a two out of four.

 

[Gamer_Matt]

super smash bros isnt ruined..and if it is..its because of complainers that need wavedashing to win a match...the roster is decent...they cant shove every character in brawl..because they wouldnt have any ideas for a new super smash..

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Yeah but considering that the online mode is ****, there's no wavedashing and that the game has such a small character roster comprised by mostly clones and only 2 3rd party characters.......I just think this game will fail.

Worst post I've read since I joined SWF.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Wherever there are several people who think they're good at the game, there will be competitive play. However, if the game reaches a level where there are strategies that are just too good to defeat, and everyone in tournament will try to use that strategy, the game's potential of competitive play is crippled.

I'm sure that a lot of people in this thread will agree that brawl is a fun game, and that "omgz it's gonna be like way better than melee IMWO (in my worthless opinion)."

Melee was probably so good because of a variety of accidents. Either that or the designing team were competitive supergods. Ledgecancel, the right amount of comboing, the right amount of "surprise" element, character counters, a necessity for different amounts of technical skill, awesome edgeguard metagame, amazing metaphysics, and overall game fluidity came together to make a game people could play for 6 years.

Matches like this were made possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAmthNm61PA

Now. Back to Brawl. What have the majority of well-respected smashers said about brawl? They say it's fun (and it is, at least for now?) , but that the competitive aspect (as per depth) has been crippled.

Fun fun fun. Last time I played it, I laughed for like 4 hours. A large majority of why I was laughing was about how retardedly easy to to combo in and out of Pikachu's Thunder, but there you go. Brawl gives people who generally wouldn't have a chance against another player/character a new light so that all may be equal. All may be happy. You know, with happy bunnies and happy rainbows.

Sure, that's a bit spiteful, but here's an example of what I mean:

The first time I played the game, it was with people who had played well over 20 hours of it at that time. These people were people who are ranked within the top 5 in my province at melee. As you may have guessed, it didn't mean a thing. After like 20 minutes, I could go match for match with them. I teamed with a Diddy and we didn't lose for like an hour. Like, wth =/ .

-------------------------

Now, I realize it's early into the game. But I recall reading a while back in this thread (and it was well back, there are a lot of Brawl optimists spamming it) that advanced techniques weren't integrated into the game very fast at all.

I call BS. Zcancel was in SSB64, so players at that time were like "mebe it's in melee too omgz wtf it is!" Then, how long do you think it took before people decided to try AIRDODGING INTO THE GROUND? Outrageous. And edgeguarding. That happened since the very beginning of Melee, too, because it turns out it was a transferable skill from SSB64.

Think about it. Almost right since the beginning of melee, Lcancel, edgeguarding, and wavedash. Are those things still being used right now? Uh, yeah.

Where are those things in brawl? Nowhere. =/ Too bad. So instead, what are many people doing?

Placing unfounded confidence in the game and reassuring themselves it will be good.
I tried that. It didn't work.

People didn't discover L-cancelling until about a year after Melee came out.

This has been said a million times but this is a new game so pros at Melee can't expect to be pros at Brawl already.

You're allowed to have your own opinion, it's just wrong.

When did any respected players say Brawl's competive scene has been crippled? They've said it's different but not crippled.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Who told you it took a year for people to lcancel? And you didn't mention the difference in transition between ssb64/melee and melee/brawl.

And no one is expecting any pros yet. Any other part of my concerns you're willing to address?

edit:// I'm sorry my opinion is wrong. This is why I'm waiting to be enlightened.

I cannot give you a direct quote just yet, but I will find some. "Crippled" was paraphrased, I've more heard "limited".

 

[NC-Echo]

Yeah but considering that the online mode is ****, there's no wavedashing and that the game has such a small character roster comprised by mostly clones and only 2 3rd party characters.......I just think this game will fail.

First off there are no clones. The characters play quite differently. Second, the online may not be perfect but its there and we didnt have it for melee. Third, the roster is 35 I personally think thats quite a lot. Lastly, why are 3rd party characters necessary at all.

One more thing: wavedashing being gone is a good thing (I think); it means that we have to find new ways to play instead melee 2.0

 

[sfox8]

I actually haven't seen anyone say that anything is wrong with Brawl's competitive play but that it takes a different approach from Melee, which is quite obvious by the competitive videos. From what I've seen, the only difference between Melee and Brawl's competitive play is just that. It's different.

Point is: if you label yourself as a competitive smasher and can kick *** with exploits in Melee then you should have no problem learning to do it in Brawl without them.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Who told you it took a year for people to lcancel? And you didn't mention the difference in transition between ssb64/melee and melee/brawl.

And no one is expecting any pros yet. Any other part of my concerns you're willing to address?

edit:// I'm sorry my opinion is wrong. This is why I'm waiting to be enlightened.

I cannot give you a direct quote just yet, but I will find some. "Crippled" was paraphrased, I've more heard "limited".

Who told you it didn't take them a year to find L-cancelling???

Of course you can't find a quote, no one said that. Besides the game is still new. LOTS left to discover.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Brawl will top Melee, 'nuff said.

 

[tddavis]

You have no argument on saying the characters you named are clones. Maybe if you explained why they were clones maybe someone would take you serious. Your argument can't be a statement you have to persuade. I will believe People who have played this game over you. Your basis for clones can't be based on them looking similar or from the same verse, it is all about what is under the hood of each character that determines if they are a clone. Every character that I have seen for the most part has had their own fighting set even if they have similar animations.

 

[Norm]

Ok i was going to give an effort into this but after reading some more of your comments you obviously havne't put any research into forming your opinion so i'm not even going to bother.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Who told you it didn't take them a year to find L-cancelling???

Of course you can't find a quote, no one said that. Besides the game is still new. LOTS left to discover.

=P I have friends who've been playing since it came out...
Also, a few of them were ssb64 players. And uh, there's Zcancelling in ssb64...

I haven't quite looked for a quote. I do recall reading it. But maybe my memory just failed me. They probably said brawl is the BEST GAME EVAR which far outdoes Melee. (Get it? I'm half the people in this thread) .

Of course the game is new. Of course there will be "LOTS" to discover. I haven't denied that. But metaphysics overrule strategies. I give you the classic Sheik- [enter character here] . [Enter character here] can have a million mindgames and tricks, once he/she is grabbed, they will suffer. A lot. By playing it, I got a glimpse of the game metaphysics...

Maybe to my untrained eye, it doesn't look promising. I'm sure, though, that you (who I'm sure by your amount of confidence, have played the Brawl a lot and are well-acquainted with what it takes to make a game truly competitive) have reached another conclusion.

I'm just saying I dislike the automatic "it will b bettr lulz" reaction to when someone introduces the -possibility- that Brawl will fall short of Melee. I also don't like how brawl uber-optimists are group-flaming melee players with concerns. And few people seem to be really addressing these people's concerns (ie, mine).

 

[Firefalcon]

I'm getting sick of these guys, you should see brawl as a brand new game.
do not see it as a sequel or comparise it with melee, you have a lot more fun this way.

 

[S623]

Haha... You can voice your opinion, Embrio... You'll just be wrong.

Also, xpryde, I can tell you're advocating Brawl, but have you been saying that they'll be competitive in different ways? I agree, but I don't think you voiced it clearly.

 

[Demon Kirby]

What have the majority of well-respected smashers said about brawl? They say it's fun (and it is, at least for now?) , but that the competitive aspect (as per depth) has been crippled.

And a few have said the exact opposite.

I guess we'll have to wait until everyone has Brawl to decide once and for all and end this ****storm.

We must all agree, though, that it is too early, and thatit will take time. Melee took 3 years, and I reckon Brawl will take less. We've already discovered a lot more in a shorter time than we did with Melee.

You can voice your opinion, Embrio... You'll just be wrong.

An opinion can not be wrong. But saying "Lucario is a clone, imo" doesn't work.

 

[Azzizaz]

Well anyone can say what they want but essentially the game does have a record high amount of clones, we have Luigi,Ike,Toon Link, Gandorf,Wolf,Falco,Lucas and that new pokeman dude. The online mode does not even support leaderboards or headsets, and once u exclude the clone chars all u have is 27-28 chars of real characters. Thats only 3-4 more then melee....quite a small roster indeed.

Luigi is a clone? LOL, he has almost every single move different from Mario.

Ike is a clone? LOL he has almost every single move different from Marth.

I'll give you Toon Link

I'll give you Ganondorf

Wolf/Falco are practically Luigified clones, but they are not real clones besides the LANDMASTER SPAM.

Lucas is considerably different from Ness.

And how is PKMN Trainer a clone in ANY way?

The online mode is good compared to other online modes available on Wii. And there's still a chance headsets could be possible for Brawl.

 

[Chaosblade77]

And how is PKMN Trainer a clone in ANY way?

The online mode is good compared to other online modes available on Wii. And there's still a chance headsets could be possible for Brawl.

No headsets because Nintendo was against it, not Sakurai.

Also, he meant Lucario was a Mewtwo clone. But that is a ridiculous statement to make because Mewtwo is not even in the game.

Additionally, he is making statements that totally favor his completely inaccurate argument. "Take out the 'clones' he mentioned and you only have 3 more characters than in Melee." Well, now lets remove the Melee clones, that leaves us at 19 characters, since you aren't counting transformations. 28 is a lot better than 19.

 

[KernelColonel]

Everything about this thread is hackneyed.

"Brawl will suck w/o advanced tactics frum Melee"

"TOO MANY CLONES"

"LOL TARD THERE R NO CLONES"

"I'm a professional player. And this game sucks because there aren't advanced tactics."

"There aren't any pros yet!"

"It's an entirely new game!"


GUH!! IT'S DRIVING ME MAD!!! Here's the ****ing lowdown, okay?

What most people are FAILING to realize is that you can't expect the game to mimick the level of its predecessor. Will Brawl be better, or will it be worse? Well, you'll have to wait until about April or May to determine that. But regardless, it won't be the same. Was Melee the same as 64? Tell me it was.

There is obviously going to be a competetive scene for Brawl. Why wouldn't there be? Give me a good reason, anyone, and I'll respond to it.

This game was not meant to improve on Melee, or even 64. It was supposed to present the fighting genre in a brand new style that happens to be remniscient of its previous brethren (in that, it uses quite a few things from the previous instalment).

All the competetive players that have played it are only 30 hours better at the game than I am. Yes, as overused as this seems, the game is new. Nobody from Melee's high-rate scene is going to be much better at the game than me or some random on these boards (unless they've never played the series at all; you know, the kind of people that don't know how to recover because they don't know what the buttons do).

The point being, a new game has just been released. It's not about coping with how different it is, it's about coping with a game you've never played before, much like the first time you picked up the N64 controller for the first one in the series.

Sorry for bringing up the only right argument people have been ignoring.

 

[Yojimbo]

Wherever there are several people who think they're good at the game, there will be competitive play. However, if the game reaches a level where there are strategies that are just too good to defeat, and everyone in tournament will try to use that strategy, the game's potential of competitive play is crippled.

I'm sure that a lot of people in this thread will agree that brawl is a fun game, and that "omgz it's gonna be like way better than melee IMWO (in my worthless opinion)."

Melee was probably so good because of a variety of accidents. Either that or the designing team were competitive supergods. Ledgecancel, the right amount of comboing, the right amount of "surprise" element, character counters, a necessity for different amounts of technical skill, awesome edgeguard metagame, amazing metaphysics, and overall game fluidity came together to make a game people could play for 6 years.

Matches like this were made possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAmthNm61PA

Now. Back to Brawl. What have the majority of well-respected smashers said about brawl? They say it's fun (and it is, at least for now?) , but that the competitive aspect (as per depth) has been crippled.

Fun fun fun. Last time I played it, I laughed for like 4 hours. A large majority of why I was laughing was about how retardedly easy to to combo in and out of Pikachu's Thunder, but there you go. Brawl gives people who generally wouldn't have a chance against another player/character a new light so that all may be equal. All may be happy. You know, with happy bunnies and happy rainbows.

Sure, that's a bit spiteful, but here's an example of what I mean:

The first time I played the game, it was with people who had played well over 20 hours of it at that time. These people were people who are ranked within the top 5 in my province at melee. As you may have guessed, it didn't mean a thing. After like 20 minutes, I could go match for match with them. I teamed with a Diddy and we didn't lose for like an hour. Like, wth =/ .

-------------------------

Now, I realize it's early into the game. But I recall reading a while back in this thread (and it was well back, there are a lot of Brawl optimists spamming it) that advanced techniques weren't integrated into the game very fast at all.

I call BS. Zcancel was in SSB64, so players at that time were like "mebe it's in melee too omgz wtf it is!" Then, how long do you think it took before people decided to try AIRDODGING INTO THE GROUND? Outrageous. And edgeguarding. That happened since the very beginning of Melee, too, because it turns out it was a transferable skill from SSB64.

Think about it. Almost right since the beginning of melee, Lcancel, edgeguarding, and wavedash. Are those things still being used right now? Uh, yeah.

Where are those things in brawl? Nowhere. =/ Too bad. So instead, what are many people doing?

Placing unfounded confidence in the game and reassuring themselves it will be good.
I tried that. It didn't work.

I still don't get why so many people think no wavedash=fail. Insert whatever random advanced technique in there that you want. The physics are different and with that, new different ways to manipulate it will be found. Not to pound you with the argument that you'll receive from everyone, but twenty hours isn't enough time at all. Twenty hours doesn't make a master. That should be obvious.

Also, how you smack down other people's opinions as worthless and consider your own of a higher standard is beyond my logic, so I won't try to understand.

Melee is still around. If you are disappointed, there are others who feel the same way as you do and you can stick to the Melee scene. After waiting for seven years and receiving something you would think is disappointing, I can understand why'd you be so quick to snap and bash others who are giving it a fair chance.

I have not played Brawl. So pardon me not using references from my own matches or experiences because I have none yet. But I remain optimistic because the game can still be competitive. I should probably follow this up with examples but I don't really have any. Unfortunate. To surmise, if you don't like Brawl, Melee is still around. If you still want to be ornery about it, I've got no advice.

EDIT: And kudos to the above poster, I agree with you on every point. Although I'm one of the ones in the middle of it.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Yeah, it's too early.

I don't think SBB is ruined. I hope that's clear.
I don't feel like repeating myself, but there are definitely coherent reasons why Brawl may not top Melee. I just hope that's clear. I also hope we agree that OF COURSE Brawl will be compared to melee. Because Melee is still a great game, and IF (God forbid, the world may explode) Brawl is the obvious lesser to our community, people will continue to play melee.

Besides, Pikachu is good now, and that's almost good enough for me. And also character-introductions are back at the beginning of the match, wtf cool.

 

[Yojimbo]

Yeah, it's too early.

I don't think SBB is ruined. I hope that's clear.
I don't feel like repeating myself, but there are definitely coherent reasons why Brawl may not top Melee. I just hope that's clear. I also hope we agree that OF COURSE Brawl will be compared to melee. Because Melee is still a great game, and IF (God forbid, the world may explode) Brawl is the obvious lesser to our community, people will continue to play melee.

Besides, Pikachu is good now, and that's almost good enough for me. And also character-introductions are back at the beginning of the match, wtf cool.

I guess I missed the fact that you aren't supporting this thread's original premise. I understand where you are coming from and I have my doubts too. They are just weighed underneath everything Sakurai has piled on top. I just tell myself "How am I not going to enjoy this?" Sure, I can't wavedash and that does put a dent in my Ice Climbers that piss off my roomate and hallmates ever so much.

Melee and Brawl will always be compared, I agree.

Character Introductions = Epic Win as far as I'm concerned.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

"One of these things is not like the others!" (you). Thanks.

Can someone confirm something for me? As Fox, if you somehow manage to pin someone against a wall, is it true that holding down and spamming B is an infinite (in brawl)?

Also, Yojimbo, the "IMWO" was very much a joke. I thought it was pretty funny, but I guess I'm more cynical than most. Of course I want Brawl to be competitive and fun, I've played the SSB series since I was like 9. I guess I can only try to ignore my observations and hope for the best =P.

 

[SonicSmash001]

K, you dont get the game because of some loser on the internet, and ill be having an awesome time with my friends. We all win.

 

[specialsauce]

alright listen most pople love BRawl the few percentage that feel its not good enough are people who got there hopes way up excpecting 50 characters and wanted every single character every in brawl. no matter what theres no way that any game couldevery please everyone becuase someone some where will feel hurt that toad didnt make the roster. sakurai even said that if he could he would have taken another 2 years to make the game if he could and still he himself wouldnt be happy with it cuz theres always something u can add. the key is knowing when to stop and release the freaking game

 

[S0crat3s]

Yeah but considering that the online mode is ****, there's no wavedashing and that the game has such a small character roster comprised by mostly clones and only 2 3rd party characters.......I just think this game will fail.

S0CRAT3S used Counter!

Online mode is #($*? You can vs. anybody, and with WifiWars and Smash World Forums, you can get more friend codes than you would otherwise...

Wavedashing was an exploited glitch in Melee...Do you blame Sora Ltd. for removing it? It's like getting angry at someone for fixing a chip in their hand-made coffee cup...

Small character roster?! Melee had a 25 character roster, and there were 6 absolute clones (the only real difference is their appearance), and 1 Luigi, who is half-clone...Brawl, on the other hand, has a 35 (38 if you count all of PT's Pokemon and Zelda's Sheik transformation), and the 5 "clones" can't really be called clones anymore, due to all of the changes, tweakings, and overall uniqueness Sora Ltd. gave them...I also don't think that there should be any more 3rd party characters, we would be lucky to get even one (this is a Nintendo game, after all)...

If you really think Brawl will "fail," even to the slightest degree, than you are truly ignorant...

-Incredibly balanced and unique roster, a roster full of Nintendo (and 3rd party) characters
-New "Final Smash" move, which might even be allowed in tourneys
-More of every good thing Melee had to offer
-Fleshed-out single (even co-op) player mode, which could probably justify the $50 price on its own (with awesome cinematics to boot)
-New features, such as the power-up sticker mode, pictures, etc.
-You can now create your own stages, increasing Brawl's already staggering replay value one-thousandfold
-An online mode (you only have to worry about Friend Codes once, then the hassle is over)

(And I'm sure I'm missing about twenty other things, but you should get the point)

 

[naevorc]

This topic is still open? It's not even a discussion or even remotely a debate anymore.

 

[Vash_15]

We have had our share of complaints with SBB that we eventually overlooked and decided to acept. It seemed the game was gearing up to be quite a impressive piece of work, but after reading the recent interview with Sak on 1up.com I must say the game is a far cry from what fans has intially hoped for. I don't want to seem over dramatic but does anyone else get the feeling brawl will not deliver on the same level melee did?

I can't wait for people to be complaining "Brawl suuuuuuuuuuuuuuxxxx" and I'll have the last laugh with my TOLD YOU SO's. Unless they have DLC Mewtwo and Roy later on ^_^

 

[Metalknux]

Why do so many people think 35 characters is small? Are you crazy?

The only reason Brawl 'sucks' is because of you people's highly unrealistic expectations. You know what I'm talking about. The ones who have a favorite character, and think it would be cool to have him/her in Brawl. They should stop there, but they don't. Instead they hop on the internet and search for reasons why their character would be perfect for Brawl. Then they create the support threads, the fan clubs, and all that.

At this point, they have completely convinced themselves that their character is in Brawl. Then they argue with the people who don't like their character, or don't think he/she will be in. They argue constantly, reassuring themselves with their 'logic' that their character will be in. Just setting themselves up for disappointment. Then when the game is released, there all 'wtf nintendo why do u hate your fans **** '. It's pathetic.

Do you know how hard it is to program a character? The SSBB team first has to create a basic character model, many, many, many different animations, then add hitboxes/other basic programming. Then they have to balance it, and balancing is very hard, especially with this many characters. Not to mention just the subtle elements that add so much personality to each character.

Even after all that, the game has much more. Stage Builder, Wi-fi, Cooperative story mode with cutscenes, Target Tests, Home Run Contest, stages, and a lot more. If you think this game is so bad, I dare you to try to find a fighting game with this much content.

There are 200+ songs, 200+ unlockables, 35 characters, 6 hour+ story mode, tons of stages, online play, tons of Game Modes and still more.

 

[Darkslash]

alright listen most pople love BRawl the few percentage that feel its not good enough are people who got there hopes way up excpecting 50 characters and wanted every single character every in brawl. no matter what theres no way that any game couldevery please everyone becuase someone some where will feel hurt that toad didnt make the roster. sakurai even said that if he could he would have taken another 2 years to make the game if he could and still he himself wouldnt be happy with it cuz theres always something u can add. the key is knowing when to stop and release the freaking game

Wow Bravo. I really Don't care if they didn't put 50 Characters. Really its stupid putting that much. I'm satisfied on what i got 35 lololololol

 

[bluethree]

Can someone confirm something for me? As Fox, if you somehow manage to pin someone against a wall, is it true that holding down and spamming B is an infinite (in brawl)?

Yes. Fox can infinitely shine someone against a wall. He could do it in Melee too.

 

[Superninjabreadman]

Brawl wont be the same as melee, it'll have its improvments, but there'll be things that I liked about Melee more.

Cant think of any right now. havent played the game yet.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Most people in this thread don't understand different peoples mindsets. I am a competitive player. I have a competitive mindset. The casual mindset is as foreign to me and my mindset is to them. The competitive community and the casual community will never see eye to eye.

The competitive players expected a game where in-game mechanics like fighting and edge guarding still existed. They were fundamentals that added incredible layers of depth to the game. The casuals spurn us because we really do only use a very small portion of the game,

The casuals wanted items, and new stages, and etc that I don't understand. We spurn the casuals because they can't appreciate how we view the game, and that to us was how we played it, by exploited things intentionally (l-cancel, short hop, fast fall, invincibility and stun frames), and unintentionally (wavedash, lag cancels) programmed into melee.

 

[Embrio]

Why do so many people think 35 characters is small? Are you crazy?

The only reason Brawl 'sucks' is because of you people's highly unrealistic expectations. You know what I'm talking about. The ones who have a favorite character, and think it would be cool to have him/her in Brawl. They should stop there, but they don't. Instead they hop on the internet and search for reasons why their character would be perfect for Brawl. Then they create the support threads, the fan clubs, and all that.

At this point, they have completely convinced themselves that their character is in Brawl. Then they argue with the people who don't like their character, or don't think he/she will be in. They argue constantly, reassuring themselves with their 'logic' that their character will be in. Just setting themselves up for disappointment. Then when the game is released, there all 'wtf nintendo why do u hate your fans **** '. It's pathetic.

Do you know how hard it is to program a character? The SSBB team first has to create a basic character model, many, many, many different animations, then add hitboxes/other basic programming. Then they have to balance it, and balancing is very hard, especially with this many characters. Not to mention just the subtle elements that add so much personality to each character.

Even after all that, the game has much more. Stage Builder, Wi-fi, Cooperative story mode with cutscenes, Target Tests, Home Run Contest, stages, and a lot more. If you think this game is so bad, I dare you to try to find a fighting game with this much content.

There are 200+ songs, 200+ unlockables, 35 characters, 6 hour+ story mode, tons of stages, online play, tons of Game Modes and still more.

You know it's not really even about "high expectations" but rather just being a bad and lazy developer IMO. When you consider the amount of delays this tittle has had, is it really so out of line to expect 50 or so characters or to expect a good online mode. Not to mention Sak isn't even aware of his own product or what's best for the series. The guys removed the universal sub systems without even considering the competitive scene, and his way of making it up to the fans is with a dull story mode and gimmicky Final smashes. Oh and lets not forget midis tracks...what the hell happen to fully orchestrated tracks.

 

[Shark X]

I've had that feeling for a year now. And sadly when I have a feeling the game will be bad/good, I'm almost always right. Well actually, I've never been wrong yet. I was probably the ONLY person who knew Sonic Heroes would be bad, while everyone else praised it. Game is released, everyone apologized for doubting me (that was a very akward day). I'm pretty much getting the same feeling here.

The unfair treatment to Mewtwo fans isn't a huge mark against the game. It's a huge mark against Sakuri. I don't dislike the game because of Mewtwo, I dislike the man.

As for the game, from what I've seen, at first I was super disappointed by the create a stage. Only three bad grounds, all bad. And the blocks/parts/whatever that you can use depending on the background, only three sets will make everything look super bland, super fast. I hated Stage Builder.

Now that it was released in Japan, I learned I was right. Everything is super bland, and visually dull. BUT, I was wrong about hating it. From all the things I've seen, I'm more excited about Stage Builder, no matter how visually dull and boring it looks, the actual Stage Building, and what you can build is amazing.

The Roster? Toon Link ruins what could of been a perfect Roster. Remove him (or turn him back into Young Link), then we have a perfect Roster. Add Mewtwo, and we have a more than perfect Roster. Add Roy and Mewtwo, and we'd have yet a greater Roster. But with Toon Link in, all we have is a, fine roster. Not a bad one like everyone believed/whines/ect.

Stages, yeah, alot I hate just by looking at them (Pictochat, Eldin Bridge, ect.), yet there's about an equal amount of stages I do like from their looks (Green Hill, Mario Kart, ect.). Hell, more stages than I liked in Melee. Speaking of Melee, there's a disappointment. Those picked out the worse and most hated stages from Melee. But screw them. I played all Melee stages enough that I'm sick of them. Odds are, I'll never play Melee levels anyway (except maybe the one's needed to unlock stuff) even if they were good or liked levels.

Final Destination...well, it looks amazing, and has great music, but it's much, much smaller than the original FD, so thats a bit of a disappointment, but still fine.

Items...wtf are the Mines? The end. I like most of the new items, especially Assist Trophies.

Clones? Ganon as a clone was a very bad idea. Falco as a clone, makes complete sense. Wolf as a clone, makes no sense. Toon Link...give me a break. Link has tons of things he could use as a weapon, so having two playable Links make sense. But giving both of those Links the exact same weapons, doesn't. Where's the Deku Leaf? Whistle? Hammer (as if we don't have enough Hammers in this game)? Spiked Ball and Chain? That...Spinny Top thing from TP? That waste of space Toon Link could of used all sorts of new moves, yet he sticks with the exact same as Link...very bad idea. Lucas? Considering Ness had those moves first, Lucas is the clone. What reason was there to make the clone a default character, and the original unlockable? Lucario? I still see no proof in him being a clone.

All in all, I have a bad feeling about the game, yet I'm super hyped for it, so...maybe I have mixed feelings about it, I don't know.

 

[specialsauce]

to Shark X: why does toon link mess up the roster how would roy and mewtwo of all people make it better?! maybe for people who are huge fans of them but seriosly everyone has there own opinion of who could have made the roster better some say ridley some say geno. the core of the game is still intact and we got 35 great characters to play with. also how is lucario a clone?! theres kno onr for him to be a clone of! if u say oh hes a mewtwo clone , ur wrong for two reasons 1. mewtwos not in the game 2. he is nothing like the mewtwo from melee. the game has a solid multiplayer amazingly better single player and more stages plus double the trophies and new modes how could this possibly be a bad game?

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

Well anyone can say what they want but essentially the game does have a record high amount of clones, we have Luigi,Ike,Toon Link, Gandorf,Wolf,Falco,Lucas and that new pokeman dude. The online mode does not even support leaderboards or headsets, and once u exclude the clone chars all u have is 27-28 chars of real characters. Thats only 3-4 more then melee....quite a small roster indeed.

This is where almost every person doubting Brawl goes wrong. Do you like Melee Embrio? You don't seem to like it very much. Melee had less clones, a smaller roster, no online or anything with it. I guess Melee fails if you think Brawl is bad, right? Wrong. You can't bash Brawl for not having enough of things while praising Melee although it has less. Contradiction ruins so many posts...

Also, they are NOT clones.

-Luigi: Never a clone. He has some similarities, but he works differently than Mario and has several noticable differences. In Melee he was the farthest clone from being a clone.

-Ike: How.. Why?... WTF. Ike is NOT a clone. Out of the 4 B moves, 3 are different (significantly). UpB is a different move, and so it OverB. Nuetral B is a more powerful move of Marth that displays and goes about itself differently. Their DownB is the same move, but they have different characteristics. Ike's and Marth's aerials and smashes a different too.

Toon Link might as well be a clone, but he differs more than Link-Y. Link in Melee. Ganondorf (or 'Gandorf') seem so play differently, Wolf and Falco have the same B moves as Fox but all 3 play in a very different sytle, and Lucas is VERY different from Ness. And I laugh... adults for some reason say "pokeman", but when that's an excuse for a typo, it's just sad.

No leaderboards is kind of a letdown, but it's one less part of stress for all of those not in the 'Top 10/50/100' to worry about when playing wifi. Headsets, meh. We never needed them, and they're more useless then they are helpful (getting cussed out or pissed off for no reason as opposed to calling the friend you're playing or chatting online). It's like complaining about moving into a new house that doesn't come with a guide on all of it's features and spots in it.


Seriously people... >_<

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

You know it's not really even about "high expectations" but rather just being a bad and lazy developer IMO. When you consider the amount of delays this tittle has had, is it really so out of line to expect 50 or so characters or to expect a good online mode. Not to mention Sak isn't even aware of his own product or what's best for the series. The guys removed the universal sub systems without even considering the competitive scene, and his way of making it up to the fans is with a dull story mode and gimmicky Final smashes. Oh and lets not forget midis tracks...what the hell happen to fully orchestrated tracks.

Yes, it is out of line to expect 50 or so characters. Even though a ton of characters would be great, there's a point where enough is enough. Imagine 70 in Brawl. It would seem crammed and jammed with too many characters, and you only even see a character a few times a month. You begin to appreciate less and less characters because once you and your friends find your mains there's like 50 characters left unused...
but that's beside the point.
This game has only had ONE delay. The second was the make more copies for the large supply and demand for Brawl. The first was to have more development time so they could finish the game. One delay. And just because a game is delayed doesn't mean all of the finer elements of the game are being improved. There are minor things, bugs/glitches, graphics, animations, moves, menus, sounds and music, videos and save data, brightness and other things. People see what they want to see, hear what they wanna hear, and believe what they wanna believe. I hate that because it can be obvious someone is wrong but they wont accept it because before you tried to prove them wrong everything seemed right. If you find out a game is being worked on longer, that doesn't mean more characters are in. It could mean a thousand other things you don't care about, and you need to realize this but don't for that very reason. You don't care. You don't care about the feature that's being changed so you assume it's something you care about. Stages, characters and modes.

 

[Shark X]

to Shark X: why does toon link mess up the roster how would roy and mewtwo of all people make it better?! maybe for people who are huge fans of them but seriosly everyone has there own opinion of who could have made the roster better some say ridley some say geno. the core of the game is still intact and we got 35 great characters to play with. also how is lucario a clone?! theres kno onr for him to be a clone of! if u say oh hes a mewtwo clone , ur wrong for two reasons 1. mewtwos not in the game 2. he is nothing like the mewtwo from melee. the game has a solid multiplayer amazingly better single player and more stages plus double the trophies and new modes how could this possibly be a bad game?

Roy and Mewtwo, well mostly Mewtwo, due to Roy being a clone, but both of them had alot of fans. How many fans did Pichu have? I've actually forgotten about Dr. Mario when I named those two. They already have most of the clones return as clones, may as well of brought back Roy and Dr. Mario.

And I left out talk about new character that didn't make it in because that wasn't an issue. I only commented on the characters we DO have, and past characters we didn't get. Otherwise it would just be opinion. Roy, Mewtwo, and Dr. Mario had many fans who were disappointed when they didn't make it in (I personally only wanted Mewtwo, but I'm pointing out the facts).

And I never once said Lucario is a clone, so read my post before you start nagging me about something I never said. As for the rest of your post, I didn't state or deny any of it. So bringing it up as an arguement to me seemed kinda as pointless as your claiming that I called Lucario a clone.

 

[HenshinHero]

If you think the game is going to suck then don't play the **** thing.

END OF STORY