Input Delay in Brawl

[infiniteV115]

Your logic is not what you said, your logic is the train of thought you had, which you won't know for certain unless they tell you. People can have more reasoning to what they said than you could pick up on.

If you make a post that includes some bad logic and you include a conclusion in that post which you came to from both the logic in the post and outside of the post (ie 'more reasoning to what they said than you could pick up on'), people have every right to tell you that your logic is bad.

This discussion is getting silly. All of it stemmed from you assuming that 'your logic' meant 'all your logic' when it should be blatantly obvious to you that 'by your logic' posts are referring to the logic used in your posts and nothing else. -.-
If people are making 'by your logic posts', they are addressing the logic you used in your post and nothing more, regardless of whether the conclusion you came to was reasonable or not. If the conclusion you come to is correct but people are making 'by your logic' posts, that should tell you that you should include more of your reasoning and not just a tidbit, because the other people on the forum only have the tidbit to go off of.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm with MegaRobMan, this dude is obviously a troll.

Like, a real fuggin troll. He lives under a bridge, has health regeneration, and is weak to fire. He collects tolls.

 

[standardtoaster]

I know you guys are sort of arguing, but I hope you didn't miss Magus' post with the link to the code in it. Might be a good thing to start making a standard at tourneys idk.

Here's the code to fix it if people wish to use it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331578

I also included a version that lets you control 2 characters with 1 controller and only the 2nd having the fix applied, so you can compare them side by side.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Getting the vBrawl community to make hacks a tourney standard is unlikely. Even though it's a good idea, removing random tripping was also a good idea, and they don't do that either.

Too much hassle for them to make sure everyone has the hacks.

 

[Biz_R_0]

If you make a post that includes some bad logic and you include a conclusion in that post which you came to from both the logic in the post and outside of the post (ie 'more reasoning to what they said than you could pick up on'), people have every right to tell you that your logic is bad.

And only if you do that fully and completely. But if someone misunderstands something for whatever reason and you correct them, you will look like you're arguing against yourself or backpedaling (which you didn't address at all).

This discussion is getting silly. All of it stemmed from you assuming that 'your logic' meant 'all your logic' when it should be blatantly obvious to you that 'by your logic' posts are referring to the logic used in your posts and nothing else. -.-

But you don't know what their train of thought was. That's what I've been saying this whole time, you don't know what they were thinking when they said what they said, therefore you do NOT know their logic, you can only infer and assume. When you do that in such a large scale and sure manner as the "by your logic" format, you are making a strawman of their logic and arguing against that instead of what they're actually saying.

I could also do a whole thing about how you could put "wow that's so obvious" at the end of anything, making your opponent seem not only incorrect but also stupid. However, that's not definite as sometimes things really are obvious.

If the conclusion you come to is correct but people are making 'by your logic' posts, that should tell you that you should include more of your reasoning and not just a tidbit, because the other people on the forum only have the tidbit to go off of.

And then you do correct them, but because of the logic strawman that was created, you look like you're arguing against yourself or backpedaling, which can easily be used against you.

Can we stop this? It's not even on topic and I wasn't even talking to you the first time.

Getting the vBrawl community to make hacks a tourney standard is unlikely. Even though it's a good idea, removing random tripping was also a good idea, and they don't do that either.

Too much hassle for them to make sure everyone has the hacks.

I agree but for a different reason; if we start hacking gameplay in tournaments, we'll basically be admitting to the world that our game is bad competitively. Which I don't think is the opinion of the vast majority of Brawl players, seeing as how they're still playing the game competitively without hacks.

 

[dettadeus]

I don't understand why this thread turned from a discussion about the effects of potential input delays into an argument about logic.
I understand how, but not why.
Not to minimod or anything, but it's kind of annoying seeing new posts and expecting stuff to actually respond to within a productive discussion or try out in Dolphin. >_>

 

[Biz_R_0]

Here's the breakdown:

* Actual on-topic discussion
* Aisight made a "by that logic" post
* I responded with why that was bad
* Got back on topic right away
* Infinite responded to my deconstruction
* I dedicate part of another post to it
* Infinite responds again in the form of a question
* I answer
* Infinite decides he wants to argue and goes off on a long tangent
* I decide that's where I wanted to end it, responded and then cut myself off from the argument

inb4 "no it's all your fault", leading to yet another derailment as I try to defend myself.

To get back on topic; do you have any new data for us, dettadeus?

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry toaster, but I don't think any vanilla game should ever make hacks the "standard". I've already asked some BBR people, like John12346, about the possibility of making a hacked Brawl with no tripping and/or no hitstun cancelling feasible for tournaments, and that was also the answer given to me. For sure, this would have a hard time being allowed for majors, like Apex. For those very reasons, it probably wouldn't be a good idea for people to implement that code, even for friendlies and fests, because I take it that many of those people are training and practicing for actual competitive matches, and it would probably be in their best interests to continue playing with what will be at the tourney (no gameplay changing hacks).

Edit: Additionally, not everyone can hack their Wiis and I am very against requiring people to hack their Wiis/games just to play in tourneys for a vanilla game.

 

[MusicalMike]

I see your point, Reflex. If you are in a situation that can resolve via the mechanics of this 2-frame slot machine, you will never know if it was resolved due to your decisions as a player, or if it was resolved due to this mechanic, and that bothers you. If you make a good read, punish it properly, and then the game decides to rob you of your punish with this mechanic, then you will never know if the resolution of any given situation where this mechanic applies was because you made a mistake, or if you were robbed by a chance mechanic even though you made the correct choice.

For those arguing that 2 frames is inhumanly fast, I agree. 2 frames IS inhumanly fast. However, the fact that this mechanic is inhumanly fast CANNOT be used as an argument because since this mechanic is based on luck, no conscious human effort could control it, even if they COULD. Luck is luck. Random. A variable. The fact that humans cannot consciously deal with 2 frames doesn't not take away the fact that this mechanic has compromised the validity of multiple common situations in play. In fact, the fact that we cannot see these two frames is why it IS such a big deal! If we could physically perceive those frames, we would KNOW which of our decisions were compromised by the game. However, we cannot see this difference. You will never know if a resolution for any given situation where this mechanic applies was your judgement, or this mechanic, and THAT'S the issue.

 

[dettadeus]

I don't have any new data at the moment, but I'm going to test out the MK dtilt vs Falco spotdodge thing later tonight once I'm done with my college apps.
Plan:
Test 1: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco inputs Usmash in reaction to the PS (meaning 12 frames after it happens, including shieldlag) (MK will be at the best possible spacing to hit Falco with Dtilt)
Test 2: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco buffers the PS > Usmash OoS (MK will again be at optimal spacing)
Test 3: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco has buffered another spotdodge, MK inputs Dtilt one frame earlier (testing to see if the lag is consistent throughout this exchange such that timing Dtilt earlier by one frame makes it hit one frame earlier)

 

[Lovage]

This is where I stopped reading. "By that logic" posts are fundamentally flawed because you're automatically making a huge assumption as to how the other person thinks, which is something you will never truly know. Then you throw away any limitation to that train of thought the other person may have and take their point to an extreme, due to your extremely limited knowledge of said train of thought. You don't know what my logic is, and pretending to do so just to stretch my supposed train of thought as far as you want it to makes what you have to say, by my logic, not worth reading.

@Lovage you didn't think to investigate this? Also thanks for not being "that Melee guy" as we already have a very persistent and annoying one.

i wanted to play the game more so i could learn about it but it sucked too hard to hold my interest at all

 

[Biz_R_0]

Fair enough, thanks for not being a jerk about it.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's depressing that this thread has been ruined by Biz R 0. This oversight is clearly objectively bad, and anyone who argues otherwise (or even argues that it's not that big of a deal) is quite obviously trolling. However, this is but one of a long, long list of demonstrable things that contribute to Super Smash Bros. Brawl being a very bad competitive game. Even if you could, ignoring this doesn't help in the grand scheme of things

 

[Biz_R_0]

Strong Bad, define trolling. I really, really want to know what you think trolling means, because right now it's sounding like "having an opinion that I disagree with". Also, Objectively =/= "I'm really adamant about my opinion".

And I didn't ruin the thread. Dettadeus wouldn't have started his excellent research project 9 pages in if I ruined the thread. People wouldn't even be posting if I ruined the thread. Most of the "ruining the thread" that happened was either people talking crap about me and improperly calling me a troll (like what you're doing right now) or people wanting to argue instead of discuss.

P.S. stop being, as Lovage put it, "dat Melee player".

 

[Player-1]

How about you guys just ignore this guy? He's obviously mentally impaired if he thinks this isn't bad from a competitive standpoint

 

[Biz_R_0]

I do think it's bad, it's just not the end of the world. I've said this multiple times.

 

[bubbaking]

Biz isn't trolling guys; we just all disagree with him. I especially know how it feels for everyone to label you as a troll, despite your utter seriousness. That being said, that doesn't mean he isn't being ridiculous. Lag is ALWAYS a bad thing and this variable lag is definitely major.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I really don't see how "it's not the end of the world" is being ridiculous, but at least that's 1 person who knows what is and isn't a troll.

Also, just a note; Uprise was held yesterday, after this announcement. Not really any different from other tourneys.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I agree but for a different reason; if we start hacking gameplay in tournaments, we'll basically be admitting to the world that our game is bad competitively. Which I don't think is the opinion of the vast majority of Brawl players, seeing as how they're still playing the game competitively without hacks.

if you went to a tournament with like, 20 SD cards that all automatically loaded up the input-lag fix code, and the anti-tripping code, and said

"guys, I have enough cards for all the setups, no problem! We can remove the stupid input lag and not randomly trip anymore! All you have to do is put this card in the slot. It's that simple!"

They would all immediately agree to it. I almost guarantee it. Any TO will tell you that the reason they don't use those codes is because getting them on all the setups is impractical. Not because "lol hacks is bad. makes us look bad"

 

[Vkrm]

I wonder how many people have lost games on account of this. Brawl is no longer fit for competitive play. Really it never was.

 

[Biz_R_0]

^Actual troll.

if you went to a tournament with like, 20 SD cards that all automatically loaded up the input-lag fix code, and the anti-tripping code, and said

"guys, I have enough cards for all the setups, no problem! We can remove the stupid input lag and not randomly trip anymore! All you have to do is put this card in the slot. It's that simple!"

They would all immediately agree to it. I almost guarantee it. Any TO will tell you that the reason they don't use those codes is because getting them on all the setups is impractical. Not because "lol hacks is bad. makes us look bad"

I don't think so, even if it was easy it would still possibly alter results, effecting things like Power Rankings and the Apex seeding.

 

[Vkrm]

The results would be more accurate. Not trolling, brawl is terrible.

 

[dettadeus]

And I didn't ruin the thread. Dettadeus wouldn't have started his excellent research project 9 pages in if I ruined the thread. People wouldn't even be posting if I ruined the thread. Most of the "ruining the thread" that happened was either people talking crap about me and improperly calling me a troll (like what you're doing right now) or people wanting to argue instead of discuss.

I started it 9 pages in because I didn't see the topic until then and wanted to test stuff after reading all of Reflex's posts.

The results would be more accurate. Not trolling, brawl is terrible.

Would you please just get out of the Brawl boards. Not trolling, people are allowed to like games that you don't like. Literally half the posts I've seen you make consist of brawl being terrible. It's fine when a big name comes in and says it with data to back it up, but when you do it just to reinforce what someone else is saying? That's a waste of everyone's time, especially your own.

Go back to the Melee boards if you hate Brawl so much. You telling people how terrible their game is will only hurt peoples' opinions of all Melee players and make them more reluctant to try the game because the community comes off as a bunch of elitists.

Expect results from my next test within the next couple hours.

Also I missed this post:

if you went to a tournament with like, 20 SD cards that all automatically loaded up the input-lag fix code, and the anti-tripping code, and said

"guys, I have enough cards for all the setups, no problem! We can remove the stupid input lag and not randomly trip anymore! All you have to do is put this card in the slot. It's that simple!"

They would all immediately agree to it. I almost guarantee it. Any TO will tell you that the reason they don't use those codes is because getting them on all the setups is impractical. Not because "lol hacks is bad. makes us look bad"

It would cost well over 100 dollars to get 20 SD cards to load up with the hacks, and you'd have to get everyone to delete their custom stages (assuming the hackless setup).

Impractical, but if this could be done at every tournament, people might start opting for it.

 

[bubbaking]

I really don't see how "it's not the end of the world" is being ridiculous, but at least that's 1 person who knows what is and isn't a troll.

It isn't too ridiculous. I've already said the following things:

I pop back in here and I see a bunch of players preparing their johns. If you play this game, you don't have an excuse. I've lost matches to trips and I johned about it non-stop, but in the end, I had to admit that it was my fault for playing this game, and I still play it, as dumb as it is.

I never disagreed and it's true. Competitive brawlers who call themselves competitive brawlers (including myself) have already committed to acknowledging, 'forgiving', denying, ignoring, accepting, and/or fighting through a lot of crap in Brawl, because in the end, they want the money, the fame, the competition, or the fun that the game brings. I find Brawl fun, even though I personally think it's a ton of garbage. I also try to play games like DBZ Budokai competitively, so that says a lot about myself.

Edit: Buffer isn't always good; it can cause some stupid things to happen (e.g. You're doing a grounded move and somehow, in the early frames of that attack, you end up in the air and that grounded move gets turned into an aerial that you never wanted), but we learned to use it and work around it. Tripping is obviously anti-competitive, but if you play this game, you've accepted it. Hitstun cancelling removes combos, so we fish for whatever combos we can pull off while adapting the rest of our play to capitalizing off of isolated single hits. Improved defensive mechanics promote extremely defensive/campy play, so we create rules to deal with ledge planking, scrooging, and all other kinds of ridiculousness. Yes, this game has now added another bad feature to the list. We now know about it, but we can't do anything about it. I hate to be THAT guy, but it's not really productive or worthwhile to be arguing about it like this. It this feature is the last straw that makes one want to drop Brawl, then drop it. If you still want to keep playing this bad game, then prepare yourself, 'cause as Taskmaster would say, "You're in for a world of hurt!!!"

I feel this thread was dumb, tbh. I could have summed up the whole debate to, "Well, now that we know our game has lag, will you continue to keep playing or not?" We can't really do much other than seethe at Sakurai for screwing up, which doesn't help.

Edit: A large part of our current top players developed on Wifi? O.o

 

[TheReflexWonder]

AL tournament hosts have managed to get 16 SD cards together for our replay setup. People are often willing to donate to help, in our experience.

 

[Vkrm]

If the brawl community survives this it'll pretty much prove sakurai can release what ever he wants to and itll sell. At this point the brawl scene looks to be built up of fanatics who cant look past the "I can make sonic fight Mario" aspect to see real flaws.

 

[Biz_R_0]

So no one cares if we admit to the world that our game is bad? The hack wouldn't even change anyone's opinions to play, as pretty much everyone who dislikes Brawl dislikes it for more than just that. The only outside impact would be negative, we would've only done it for us and it wouldn't even change that much to warrant the increased difficulty in setting up and the destruction of our game's integrity.

inb4 "you like tripping"

IIt's fine when a big name comes in and says it with data to back it up

I disagree, as it's a dead horse no matter who's beating it or with what.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, he wasn't talking to you...

If the brawl community survives this it'll pretty much prove sakurai can release what ever he wants to and itll sell. At this point the brawl scene looks to be built up of fanatics who cant look past the "I can make sonic fight Mario" aspect to see real flaws.

SFxT. Every edition of SF IV. Each full-priced version of MvC3. There are top/high Melee players who also play Brawl. Calling them fanatics is a bit strong, don't you think?

 

[Biz_R_0]

SFxT.

I thought that game was dead because the FGC deemed it awful garbage?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So yeah, this just killed any remaining interest in getting back into this game competitively. Reflex is pretty much right. It makes reactions that are frame tight (but easily predictable) unreliable. It explains so much about why I have so many problems grabbing landings with Lucas (he has a grab that lasts 1 frame, the shortest of all characters). His long range grab should be a redeeming factor in match-ups where people can land out of range of normal attacks, but it isn't because of this. Things like these do have an impact on gameplay, when they shouldn't.
My two cents.

 

[bubbaking]

People still bought it and people still hold tourneys for it. The latest Capcom game will always be the biggest rage among the FGC. That game was literally the Brawl of the SF series (yes, it's practically a SF game with Tekken chars in it).

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm not seeing how that's Brawl, seeing as how Brawl's been out for almost 5 years and the competitive community is still growing. If anything that's the Tatsunoko of Street Fighter, although from what I remember people loved that game (Chun/Batsu all day e'rry day).

 

[Vkrm]

Pretty sure melee is growing and brawl is dying. Not really sure. Does anybody have these numbers? Or how about average stream viewers?

 

[bubbaking]

^This.

Brawl's community is growing? Last I checked, its competitive community is shrinking. Top/high players are dropping out left and right, and I don't really see that many new players coming in to pick up the slack. Prime example: the Diddy mains. Gnes and ADHD took the scene by storm, showing what Diddy is truly capable of and taking sets and victories off the world's greatest players. Now they've retired and who are we left with? Zinoto and P-1, two people who truly are good but nowhere near as good as Gnes and ADHD were. The collective skill cap has fallen.

Another great example: Mario Bros. When Boss left the scene, taking all his secrets with him, they were practically left to rot. SFxT is Brawl because it's a campy as **** game where you poke all day and get punished super hard for approaching. Timeouts became the norm in that game! Brawl and SFxT are the only games I know where gunning for timeouts has become a viable strategy in a large portion of matches.

 

[Biz_R_0]

ADHD was at a tourney yesterday. Also, no one times out in Brawl anymore. This year I've seen it happen once. I really don't think you're up to date on your Brawl.

 

[Vkrm]

Was it a major or a local? Free money is free money. I doubt anybody could maintain the drive to be the best in a game with sooooo many luck factors. Probably doesn't even like the game anymore, ADHD I mean.

 

[bubbaking]

I play it competitively. I'm plenty updated. What tourney was ADHD at? If it was just a local, I don't really count that 'cause then he's just taking people's money to supplement his income.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Biz_R_0]

It was a regional, although a regional in Jersey brings a lot of top players. Although, not travelling doesn't make him retired, and I'm not even sure if he did stop travelling. I doubt it's "free money", though, as playing a game you hate for hours on end when you're probably only getting 5th is a waste of time.

 

[Delta-cod]

>Brawl is dying
>Apex 2013 will probably have an even bigger Brawl entrant count than the last one.

No please continue.

 

[Vkrm]

Are you implying input lag won't kill brawl?