Input Delay in Brawl

[dettadeus]

Well that's just a plain frame-data question.

Let's say Falco is the one spotdodging and there's 2 frames of lag.

Frame 1: First frame of Falco's spotdodge
Frame 17: MK inputs grab.
Frame 22: Last frame of Falco's spotdodge
Frame 23: First frame of second spotdodge
Frame 25: First invincible frame of second spotdodge
Frame 25: MK's grabbox comes out, misses by a frame.
Frame 44: Last frame of second spotdodge
Frame 46: MK's grab ends

MK's grab animation is 29 frames. Most characters have a grab animation that is as long or longer than this, although for some reason most frame data guides have jack squat on grabs. >_>

If you whiff a grab the spotdodger will have the advantage in most cases.
If you whiff early then you'd recover first but if it's only by a frame or two, you can't grab again before they can do something.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@bubba stop shoehorning "hurr durr Brawl is dying" into every goddamn post, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (see a few pages ago) and have zero proof, so at this point it's more of a failed attempt at an insult than an observation. Brawl is not dying, people are still making and going to tournaments and the people in top 8 are still amazing (and who retired?). Also, just saying, you say that attendance doesn't matter and only who's still in and good matters, but how many players from 2011 or 2012 are getting into top 8? If that's what we're going by, then from my observations, Melee is definitely not growing.

@detta so grab as a spotdodge punishment is risky anyway?

 

[bubbaking]

Wow, calm down. I wasn't the only one, bub. I'm pretty sure Reflex just pointed out that Apex of last year was the biggest Brawl tourney ever and probably the biggest one we're gonna get. It happens to old games that are bad, man. They die. Why would I be insulting a community of which I'm part of? Just stop and ask yourself: does it make sense? I'm still playing Brawl competitively. Why would I sit here and make fun of everyone else who's doing the same? Seriously, think about it.

Edit: And I already told you, I don't count 50 noobs entering a certain tourney instead of 10 noobs as "growing". Our collective skill cap is falling. I already pointed it out with three characters. Do you want more? Coney is probably retiring extremely soon and Atomsk doesn't play DDD much anymore, so there you go. DDD's top level has just fallen.

Edit 2: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=296541
How many of these people still play and who is playing now that is as good as they were? Says a lot, don't you think?

 

[Zankoku]

Well that's just a plain frame-data question.

Let's say Falco is the one spotdodging and there's 2 frames of lag.

Frame 1: First frame of Falco's spotdodge
Frame 17: MK inputs grab.
Frame 22: Last frame of Falco's spotdodge
Frame 23: First frame of second spotdodge
Frame 25: First invincible frame of second spotdodge
Frame 25: MK's grabbox comes out, misses by a frame.
Frame 44: Last frame of second spotdodge
Frame 46: MK's grab ends

MK's grab animation is 29 frames. Most characters have a grab animation that is as long or longer than this, although for some reason most frame data guides have jack squat on grabs. >_>

If you whiff a grab the spotdodger will have the advantage in most cases.
If you whiff early then you'd recover first but if it's only by a frame or two, you can't grab again before they can do something.

lol, 2 frames of disadvantage would certainly explain the whiffedgrab-spotdodge wars that have happened on occasion. Thanks for the math.

 

[AmKhokar]

Boss was actually at my last tourney. He wanted to enter after brackets had started so I couldn't fit him into Brawl and only got him in Melee (which he won), but it shows he's still somewhat interested in Brawl tournaments I suppose.

I think it's really tough to gauge the actual growth or shrinkage of the general or competitive Brawl scene, but I also don't see the point of determining that in this thread.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@bubba, stop. Like Am said, there's no point to discussing this here and you're clearly just trying to argue (not the same thing). This isn't remotely on-topic, you're just trying to shove unrelated opinions into your posts. You say you're not trying to insult Brawl? Then stop with the "Brawl sucks and its dying" bullcrap, as that's all you've been doing. You're basically the Brawl-playing equivalent of "dat Melee player" right now.

Also, just saying, I never intend to sound angry or uptight, it's just the wording or something. If I were actually saying these things it wouldn't sound like that. I'm not mad, although this is pointless and I don't want to argue about it.

 

[AmKhokar]

^Don't use expletives or subsitutes for them in your posts, or caps and exclamation marks in combination with sarcasm and you'll sound a lot less angry :-p.
I also don't see why you think Bubbaking hates Brawl. Him saying Brawl is dying is meant to be an objective conclusion on the growth or decline of the competitive scene, not his personal opinion of the game or the scene (~>_<~)

 

[Biz_R_0]

Read all his posts in the thread. He constantly says that Brawl is a bad game or it's dying, sometimes both. Even if he doesn't "hate" it he's still being unnecessarily negative about it and the only difference between him and "dat Melee player" is he supposedly plays this game he thinks is bad and dying.

 

[AmKhokar]

^Fair enough. Re-read posts and I see what you're referring to. Still maybe a tad bit of overreaction on your part :-p

 

[Biz_R_0]

Like I said, probably just how I word things. I don't mean to overreact, although apparently my mannerisms don't translate into text very well.

 

[dettadeus]

minor note but it seems like my save states test is done

same input lag every time i reloaded the state, so it's not random on a frame-by-frame basis at all. it has to be based on something going on at the particular time i suppose

 

[Biz_R_0]

Very interesting. What's next on the agenda?

 

[dettadeus]

0/1/2 frame stats (how often each occurs at the beginning of a match) and an elongated match/exchange, probably

 

[*Cam*]

Would fixing a few bugs for competitive play really mean that people can't practice on their vanilla copy of Brawl?

 

[Biz_R_0]

Tripping isn't a bug. And if this is so horrible that it needs to be removed, than yes, it would mean that.

 

[bubbaking]

Boss was actually at my last tourney. He wanted to enter after brackets had started so I couldn't fit him into Brawl and only got him in Melee (which he won), but it shows he's still somewhat interested in Brawl tournaments I suppose.

I think it's really tough to gauge the actual growth or shrinkage of the general or competitive Brawl scene, but I also don't see the point of determining that in this thread.

He also told me personally that he doesn't really play Brawl anymore and only enters tourneys for the money, something I've noticed among many of the top Brawl players. He said he's quitting because Brawl isn't fun for him anymore, at least not how the metagame has been developing lately. Coney and BigWenz told me the exact same thing. Brawl used to be okay, but the way the metagame has developed lately has counteracted the way they like to play completely. You're right, though. It's tough to gauge how much a scene is growing or shrinking, and I'm mostly just looking at a certain aspect (collective skill cap).

Edit: And another good call from you. I'm probably gonna stop talking about this in this thread. Truth be told, I wasn't supposed to get involved in any convos in here at all, but I guess I couldn't help myself...

 

[bubbaking]

Edit: Oh, sorry for the double post. It's been over an hour.

I also don't see why you think Bubbaking hates Brawl. Him saying Brawl is dying is meant to be an objective conclusion on the growth or decline of the competitive scene, not his personal opinion of the game or the scene (~>_<~)

This.

Would fixing a few bugs for competitive play really mean that people can't practice on their vanilla copy of Brawl?

Well, as dettadeus just showed, vBrawl normally has 1 frame of lag most of the time, so timing incurred through training with vBrawl wouldn't be 100% true to how gameplay would be in a normal game. It probably wouldn't do much for most, though.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You've said multiple times throughout the course of this thread that you think Brawl is a bad game, which is what I think that you think that.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, my personal opinion of Brawl is that it's a bad game. I am also of the opinion that UMvC3 is a bad game and that most fighters with chip damage that invariably kills you are not as good as they could have been. I still play both of those games, especially Brawl, and would like to improve in both of them. AmKhokar hit the nail on the head with that post. I don't hate Brawl; I play it competitively. I don't win money in it, so if I did dislike it, I'd be wasting my time. As he said, I was being objective with my comments on the growth/decline of the Brawl scene and my conclusion that "Brawl is dying." Also, me liking to play Brawl (or any game) doesn't change that I can see certain bad aspects/mechanics of it.

Tl;dr - I'm allowed to like playing bad games.

 

[Baskerville]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Input Lag, not confession hour starring Bubbaking.

 

[bubbaking]

I know, amirite?

Variable input lag is bad, but maybe not as bad as many people think. I feel that statement sums up this thread.

Edit: As I said before, I think this thread was a bad idea.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You're allowed to feel however you want about anything, but pretty much all you've been saying is Brawl is bad and dying and it's not even the topic.

 

[bubbaking]

All you've been doing for the past 10 posts is extending an irrelevant topic that I've tried to end twice now.

Spoiler

Brawl is objectively dying and is subjectively bad.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You could just not respond. Walking away usually ends conversations better than telling people to stop.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I had a idea for something that could use some testing. How are the ledge options used in planking effected by this input lag? I believe ledge options cannot be buffered and as such could potentially have an unknown error margin due to this lag.

I was thinking with dk in particular this could make his frame perfect planking not possible. This may also hurt mk's perfect planking.

just thought that this might be something to check into.

 

[dettadeus]

You could just not respond. Walking away usually ends conversations better than telling people to stop.

you could do the same

I had a idea for something that could use some testing. How are the ledge options used in planking effected by this input lag? I believe ledge options cannot be buffered and as such could potentially have an unknown error margin due to this lag.

I was thinking with dk in particular this could make his frame perfect planking not possible. This may also hurt mk's perfect planking.

just thought that this might be something to check into.

this is actually an interesting question. i'll test it out sometime in the next day or two.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I don't drag out conversations I don't want to have. If I ask someone to stop and they don't I'll just not respond.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's stop here, I like that a lot.