Input Delay in Brawl

[Ishiey]

From work on Project:M http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-5997.html

So wii-motes were really geting like 6 frames of input lag since its wireless has like 4 frames lag + brawls input delay? 0_o wow.

Yes, wiimotes were seeing 2-4 frames of lag removed when we tested

I don't think many people knew about this being in Brawl (I sure didn't lol), so I figured I'd share the news. Brawl randomly delays inputs for up to two frames from the time they are inputted. Probably explains why we have a buffer, not just for online play but to prevent randomly dropping combos with a tight window frame after they're started.


EDIT: info from dettadeus on how this plays out using Dolphin's frame advance.

Alright, I just did a bunch of testing in Dolphin's frame advance with Ice Climbers (Jab) and Meta Knight (Dtilt).
I'm assuming there's just a flat delay for inputs in Dolphin, since the soonest I could ever get an input to come out was the 2nd frame after the frame I input the attack on.
The way I counted was this (I made the attack input for only the first frame, then released it the second):
Frame 1: Attack Input
Frame 2: No Attack Input 1
Frame 3: No Attack Input 2 (earliest attacks could come out for me in Dolphin) [Counting as 0 Frames Lag]
Frame 4: No Attack Input 3 [One Frame Lag]
Frame 5: No Attack Input 4 [Two Frame Lag]
Frame 6: No Attack Input 5 [Three Frame Lag]

I got by far the largest number of attacks coming out with one frame of lag, nearly double the number I got with any other frame, with both Ice Climbers and Meta Knight. At about half the number was 0 frames of lag, and I only got one or two attacks coming out after two frames of lag.
Oddly enough, one time MK's dtilt came out after No Attack Input 5, meaning it would've had 3 frames of lag, but I'm discounting that as an error for now.

What I found most interesting was that it wasn't particularly random. There would be long sequences of attacks where there were 0 frames of lag, then a large sequence with 1 frame, then another long sequence with 0 frames, etc. There were a few instances where there were only two or three consecutive attacks with the same amount of lag.

Also, the few times I actually looked for it, Nana always had the same number of lag frames as Popo did; her attacks would always come with her usual input lag after Popo's lag was taken into account, although if I tested more it's possible there could be some instances where Nana lags after Popo does.

EDIT: Just tested a bit more. Still getting 1 frame a majority of the time regardless of the animation (I tested MK's shield this time) but I also got... A chain of 8 inputs stuck at 2 frames of lag doing Icies shield, followed by a 0-frames lag shield.

Hope to god you don't ever randomly get 2 frames on one of your inputs because it's going to stick for a while.

Discuss.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Oh no, TWO FRAMES? This changes everything! This existed for the almost 5 years since it's been out and nobody's had a problem since then, but now that someone has discovered it, it is now suddenly unbearable! Surely this actually has an impact on the game, as it has been clearly visible for all these years just like tripping and buffer, and isn't just trivial bullcrap for haters to put at the end of their gigantic list of nitpicks to exaggerate in order to be negative on the internet! All is lost, including hope, which is dead.

 

[Ishiey]

I have no idea why you're so mad lol. I'm just pointing out that it exists, not saying that this knowledge is going to revolutionize the metagame or anything. Hence why it's in this subforum and not MDRD.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm not mad. Well, I am mildly disgruntled that sarcasm and being serious automatically equal "mad", as if people's perception of anger is "not totally at peace" instead of "actually angry". Anyway, I was mocking the inevitable "Look at that! Another thing that is bad about Brawl! This is going on the list of things I will triumphantly declare to people who actually like this horrid tripe!" that has already happened in the P:M thread. Also the way the P:M guy put it made it seem like this huge deal when it is really the smallest of deals.

 

[teluoborg]

Ishey don't feed the troll plz.

Are there any consequences in game ? Like some inputs being misread because of the delay ?

 

[Biz_R_0]

I guess troll just means "person I currently have negative feelings toward" instead of what it actually means. No, that's cool, you've proven you're the bigger person with your name calling.

inb4 "u mad"

 

[Ishiey]

Let me rephrase then, your peace seemed to be unreasonably severely bothered lol. Regardless, I agree that it is a minor detail, and don't think people will be tripping over themselves (lol accidental puns) to badmouth Brawl in this thread. As I said, it's posted for informational purposes since I didn't think this was well-known.

Only consequences I can think of are PSing and things that need to be frame-precise that you can't buffer. No idea how many things fall into the latter category, but probably very few. Maybe Sheik's ftilt lock on a few characters, where it's better not to buffer it, but even then I'm sure she has some leniency. Perhaps her DACUS but I'm pretty sure that can be buffered.

 

[Baskerville]

Didn't UMvC3 have this same issue?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS viable news at 11

In all seriousness I have suspected something like this might be the case for a while. If you use TAS tools in Dolphin for Brawl, you'll notice that the inputs don't come out right away on the next frame, but some seemingly random time after it's "pressed."

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I've always suffered the most lag, being the only one to complain about it, but I thought it was just the TVs. A friend told me the same thing, that using a CC Pro and the fact that it's wireless causes the inputs to lag.

Is there a hack for vBrawl to remove the input lag?

 

[Vkrm]

It's not an issue if you buffer everything. However it is pretty freaking stupid. It could be the difference between getting shield grabbed or not and it definitely cost you the match. I play melee exclusively and recently I thought about attending brawl locals simply because it would be on more tournament a month. There is no way that's gonna happen now......

Once the pmbr release the complete code set for pm, is there any chance people who run tourneys for v brawl would use the ones that remove lag and tripping?

 

[Revven]

Didn't UMvC3 have this same issue?

I'm not sure if it's input or just framerate, but the PS3 version is what lags... afaik the 360 version of UMvC3 is perfectly fine.

Also, none of you should be taking this thread as ****ting on Brawl. It's bringing something important to light that's been plaguing the game since it came out.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Getting shield grabbed on the start up lag?
This is really not that big a deal since almost everything that needs to be frame perfect is buffered.

 

[Vkrm]

You can't buffer everything. I really think brawl Players should use the codes that stop tripping and remove lag.

 

[Flayl]

Lots of tournaments already used the no-tripping code, way before Project: M even existed.

Removing lag will be a difficult choice seeing as it can "ruin" a player's feel of the game. Every seasoned player is already used to playing with the lag, having some wiis without the lag and some with can break their muscle-memory rhythm

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You can't buffer everything. I really think brawl Players should use the codes that stop tripping and remove lag.

I didn't say you could but the only time this really matters is when you are going to clash or when you grab/dash grab. Pretty much everything oos should be buffered.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I like how I said first thing that this is only going to be used for Brawl haters to exaggerate to be negative on the internet and Vkrm is putting his all into proving me right.

 

[Vkrm]

I do dislike brawl, it's true. Im not blowing two random frames of lag out of proportion in the least. It's a problem. It's a real problem. It could screw anything that requires precise timing. It is a big deal.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Then why wasn't it noticeable for the almost five years it's been out?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I do dislike brawl, it's true. Im not blowing two random frames of lag out of proportion in the least. It's a problem. It's a real problem. It could screw anything that requires precise timing. It is a big deal.

Like what? No human player can react to an attack in two frames so anything that happens in two frames has more to do with guessing

 

[Biz_R_0]

Like what? No human player can react to an attack in two frames so anything that happens in two frames has more to do with guessing

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Vkrm]

Think about it. You could a situation where you timed an attack better than your opponent and still lose the engagement. The game is basically saying, "sorry, you were faster and more prepared than the other guy, but not by enough."

 

[Biz_R_0]

The game is saying "sorry about that, we were running a little close to deadline so we couldn't really fix this."

 

[Revven]

The game is saying "sorry about that, we were running a little close to deadline so we couldn't really fix this."

So, you'd rather people not even know about it at all, not even acknowledge its existence just for the sake of avoiding any negativity about the game? I don't really get what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. I understand it in the P:M thread because, y'know, people who want to play that don't want to play Brawl and might have yet *gasp* another reason to hate on Brawl (as if tons of people don't already have other reasons to hate it).

This isn't how the community should react to it, brushing it aside like it's nothing at all. It does affect the game in some capacity, even with the huge amount of frames of buffer. Just because Brawl is a slower game doesn't mean input lag isn't bad for the game. Otherwise, if that was the case, the community wouldn't care about using HDTVs or anything more modern than a CRT. Yet the community strives for every tourney to have CRTs.

Maybe that's a bad comparison because it's not *technically* the game's fault for that kind of input lag. But it falls under the same category, does it not? Input lag is input lag. It's not nitpicking if it's a TV causing the input lag, but it is when the game actually causes it? Okay. Doesn't change the fact that it exists and you can actually knowingly be aware of it when you try to do something; whether it would actually affect when your move came out in time or not.

It's knowledge that's just as important as anything else the community, here, has researched. You can call someone out on it if you want if they use it as a john in a situation where the input lag wouldn't matter. But in a situation the input lag would matter is nice to know.

Anyway, I just think what you've been posting hasn't been very productive at all, it's just been about defending the game rather than thinking about how this factors into anything for the game. If it doesn't, then maybe you should stop posting and let others come to that same conclusion on their own? Or, maybe you can actually help the thread itself out by posting what you think this does to the game, rather than actively trying to say, "STOP NITPICKING, YOU NITPICKER!" It's really just kind of... petty and childish.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Like what? No human player can react to an attack in two frames so anything that happens in two frames has more to do with guessing

Yes, but a human player can react in 12 frames. When those 12 frames are reduced to a 10-frame reaction because of your 2-frame input lag, it can make a difference.

Anyway, the fact that there is a 10-frame buffer in Brawl means this doesn't affect things AS MUCH as in PM. Most timing-related things can be done as fast as the game allows, regardless of input lag, because you can enter that input, say, 6 frames ahead of time to buffer it.

As for applying this code to Brawl tournaments, I agree that it should not be done, because it changes the "feel" of the game. No-tripping doesn't change the "feel" but instead removes an element that can not be strategically applied to any situation, while every other gameplay element remains the same.

 

[shanus]

This guy is the biggest troll in the world

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Makes me noticeably less interested in playing competitive Brawl.

Can we get the Gecko codes for that? With this, I'd be happy to make no-tripping and no-input-delay the tournament standard here.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If players think this is really a big deal, then they should just do all there attacks two frames in advance.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Makes me noticeably less interested in playing competitive Brawl.

Really? Somehow you just suddenly lost interest because of this announcement of a really really minor thing that's been in the game the whole time? If this is how people are going to react, I actually do wish they never said anything.

gigantic reply

I'm saying that this is really minor, although not insignificant, and I knew exactly where it was going (Melee fans rant about how it literally ruins the game, scrubs blame it on everything). That's all. And now I'm a troll because people got mad, because that's how it works now I guess.

In regards to the hacking; no. Never about anything that isn't completely aesthetic. If you change gameplay at all in a competitive setting, you're admitting that your game isn't good competitively, and that will ruin any chance we have of getting good publicity. Along with opening the gates to ridicule, as many people already claim that you need to hack Brawl in order to play competitively and this will only increase that.

TL;DR it's not a big deal, don't deflower the game over it.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Makes me noticeably less interested in playing competitive Brawl.

Can we get the Gecko codes for that? With this, I'd be happy to make no-tripping and no-input-delay the tournament standard here.

I came in here to troll but

this.

Actually I haven't been outside of a MW forum outside of my subscribed threads in a while. Hi Ish!

Also this makes melee the clearly superior game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a huge blow to any potential shift toward offensive play the metagame may have appeared to have. So many windows of opportunity are incredibly small to the point where competitive play revolves around the abuse of defensive options which make bold reads take more than a little bit of luck, and now up to two frames of uncertainty has been confirmed.

Every single time (too many to count, with no exaggeration) I've said, "but I could've sworn I read him and timed it perfectly," may or may not have been because of the delay. This uncertainty makes it clear to me that the luck-based combat of certain strong attacks and the ridiculous potential of invincibility frames will consistently trump bold reads and practicing to punish very small windows much more often than not. Competitive play requires a certain amount of giving in to the equivalent of loaded dice rolls, and this makes it even worse.

There's only so many times you can get your perfect read powershielded/spotdodged -> punished before you start to question it. High-level play primarily revolves around incredibly tight windows of opportunity. This explains an awful lot.

 

[Ishiey]

Reflex: explains why the good spotdodges can be so tough to punish. As well as landings. When you only have two-frame windows to punish, a potential two-frame input delay can change a lot of things :x

Jebus: unfortunately, there's the lack of consistency. It can be between zero and two frames, so acting early won't always land you on the desired timing.

Biz: stop cluttering this thread. It is not appreciated and you are not contributing anything.

Edit @ MRM: hi :3

 

[Biz_R_0]

It's TWO FRAMES, at MOST. Brawl almost never requires frame perfection, you're being ridiculous and ruining the game for yourself over almost nothing. This is what I was afraid of, stop overreacting to nothing, nothing has changed and the game is the same as it always was. You may think I'm some raving lunatic but I really don't care at this point, when people are reacting like this, something needs to be said about it.

Biz: stop cluttering this thread. It is not appreciated and you are not contributing anything.

I'm not spamming, this is input in the discussion even if you don't like what I have to say.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

It's TWO FRAMES, at MOST. Brawl almost never requires frame perfection, you're being ridiculous and ruining the game for yourself over almost nothing. This is what I was afraid of, stop overreacting to nothing, nothing has changed and the game is the same as it always was. You may think I'm some raving lunatic but I really don't care at this point, when people are reacting like this, something needs to be said about it.



I'm not spamming, this is input in the discussion even if you don't like what I have to say.

who are you again? Clearly you are more qualified to talk about the impact of how 0-2 frames can affect high level play than ****ing reflex, or ish.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Appeal to authority, just because they're better at the game than me doesn't mean they're right. I really can't look at this and call it a big deal, and I can't look at people seriously considering leaving the game over this and call it a reasonable reaction.

 

[metroid1117]

It's TWO FRAMES, at MOST. Brawl almost never requires frame perfection, you're being ridiculous and ruining the game for yourself over almost nothing. This is what I was afraid of, stop overreacting to nothing, nothing has changed and the game is the same as it always was. You may think I'm some raving lunatic but I really don't care at this point, when people are reacting like this, something needs to be said about it.

On the contrary, spot-dodges are incredibly hard to punish in Brawl; the best spot-dodges only have two frames of cool-down. If Link or Falco just buffer spot-dodges, you only have four frames to hit them - good luck trying to consistently punish their spotdodges with any attack that comes out slower than 4 frames when there's 0-2 frames of input lag on every input. If that doesn't require "frame perfection," then I don't know what does. Like Reflex and Ish said, it's a huge deal when the window to punish defensive options is so small.

 

[Biz_R_0]

On the contrary, spot-dodges are incredibly hard to punish in Brawl; the best spot-dodges only have two frames of cool-down.

Good point, however you don't need exact timing, the hitbox just has to be there during those two frames. That's why the best moves for punishing them are lingering and long-lasting. It does make a difference, although it doesn't make it extremely difficult and it's certainly not worth quitting the game over IMO.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's TWO FRAMES, at MOST. Brawl almost never requires frame perfection, you're being ridiculous and ruining the game for yourself over almost nothing.

It would seem that you don't have a strong understanding of high-level play, then. It's not about technical skill--It's about windows of opportunity in general.

For example, given that Dedede goes into the z-axis during his spotdodge, for instance, if he buffers a spotdodge out of it, you have one frame to punish it. Shielding out of spotdodge is buffered leave literally zero frames of vulnerability. For Falco and Pikachu, it's two frames.

Many landing situations have two frames of vulnerability, so Falco coming down with either a normal fall airdodge or a fastfall airdodge are made into a devastating loaded dice situation that already made offensive play seem unreliable and lackluster when you account for all the potential options. With two unreliable frames to have to count on, that all but destroys consistency in offensive play, forcing everyone to do the same boring camping song and dance we've seen for years. Now I know that it's definitely not for a lack of trying.

The point is, this is the very reason that we NEED to rely on lingering hitboxes. There's very little room for variation in high-level play; until someone is put in a bad position (through what's described immediately after this parenthesis) it's mostly a boring campfest involving a small handful of moves. Over the years, I've come to the realization that PT struggles as much as he does in high-level play mostly because he lacks long-lasting attacks, and now the importance of that has been stressed a great deal.

 

[deepseadiva]

who are you again?

This post is dumb.

Refute his points.

I really can't look at this and call it a big deal.

Peach is built around a single frame advantage on shield. This is ****ing dumb. Though I'm glad this was discovered, announced, and fixed at the same time. Good stuff guys.

This is like learning your birthday has always been the day after.

 

[Biz_R_0]

With two unreliable frames to have to count on, that all but destroys consistency in offensive play, forcing everyone to do the same boring camping song and dance we've seen for years. Now I know that it's definitely not for a lack of trying.

Then how come people have played well offensively? If this were true, it would've been impossible to win without doing this.

The point is, this is the very reason that we NEED to rely on lingering hitboxes. There's very little room for variation in high-level play; until someone is put in a bad position (through what's described immediately after this parenthesis) it's mostly a boring campfest involving a small handful of moves.

Not necessarily, just use a lingering move if they keep doing it, as they won't be doing it all the time because that will happen if they do. No big deal.