Infinite Second Jump Recovery List and Discussion [SEPT 7] - 19 videos!

[Gamer212]

I can SJR with Diddy's Side B. It isn't really helpful since you can't use it again. Plus using that multiple times is pretty useless.

 

[storm92]

Ganon's Bair is ISJR'able, as well as Dair (although to be completely honest, I could only do it twice in a row because he's so heavy).

 

[Judge Judy]

Could someone please do a video of Mario's Bair and Dair across FD.

 

[worldjem7]

Bowser's Claw ISJR to all aerials and Claw except for Dair

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=80U_DTFJpbY

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Makkun, I've made a video displaying Lucario's SJR with D-air, where I DJ>D-air on the way up>SJR> D-air on the way up to SJR about 7 times, creating a "Wall of Pain" with his D-air. It looks extremely useful. Does this seem worth uploading to YouTube?

 

[comboking]

no one pull this off with Ike it would help

 

[Makkun]

Makkun, I've made a video displaying Lucario's SJR with D-air, where I DJ>D-air on the way up>SJR> D-air on the way up to SJR about 7 times, creating a "Wall of Pain" with his D-air. It looks extremely useful. Does this seem worth uploading to YouTube?

YESYESYES! It sounds really neat. o_o;

Also worldjem, if I'm not mistaken, that has been known since Bowser's technique was discovered. I'll put it in the video list though. O: I could be wrong!

 

[worldjem7]

Well even if it was known, it never hurts to have an informative video about it. Because I've never seen one until I made one.

 

[Makkun]

That's very true. O: I put the video in the list. (:

 

[worldjem7]

Also, how come you don't have Bowser's Side-B listed in the Specials that can be ISJR'd?

 

[ph00tbag]

Also, how come you don't have Bowser's Side-B listed in the Specials that can be ISJR'd?

I don't think Bowser's side B necessarily has the same thing happening. Klaw can be SJC'd at any point in the animation, as I recall. SJR only works at the end of a move's animation.

 

[worldjem7]

Yes, but, technically Bowser is recovering his second jump whenever he uses Side-B to do it. It's essentially the same thing but, Bowser's Side-B is special probably because it's a grab attack rather than a normal attack with a hit-box.

 

[comboking]

why do you say Ike's aerials would not work for this it works with snake
oh also on this video Kirby - ISJR'd Side-B - http://youtube.com/watch?v=5qZ6dEe9kX8 (alarmpalm [Youtube]) did he just have the overB end before he landed and jumped again

 

[metroid1117]

why do you say Ike's aerials would not work for this it works with snake

I tried it for myself; I don't believe that Ike can ISJR with any of his aerials. I may be wrong though; it should work, seeing that you can short-hop his BAir and auto-cancel it, and given that his double jump is higher than his short-hop. Maybe the auto-cancel portion of the attack is much earlier than the ending animation, hence you don't have enough time to buffer the second BAir after the initial SJR?

 

[comboking]

yah I was thinking for Ike we could only do SJR not ISJR
SJR still would help Ike

plus once AR comes out we can try to frame test this and TAS this

 

[3xSwords]

Yes, but, technically Bowser is recovering his second jump whenever he uses Side-B to do it. It's essentially the same thing but, Bowser's Side-B is special probably because it's a grab attack rather than a normal attack with a hit-box.

He isn't recovering his jump by using side B. He can cancel the sideB animation w/ a jump if he's near the ground at any point unlike anybody else so its considered as a character specific glitch and not part of the ISJR AT. Also if grab attacks made moves ISJRable at any point then ganon should receive the same abilities w/ his sideB. Of course he doesn't *laughs* right? *laughs nervously*

 

[adumbrodeus]

He isn't recovering his jump by using side B. He can cancel the sideB animation w/ a jump if he's near the ground at any point unlike anybody else so its considered as a character specific glitch and not part of the ISJR AT. Also if grab attacks made moves ISJRable at any point then ganon should receive the same abilities w/ his sideB. Of course he doesn't *laughs* right? *laughs nervously*

Maybe he does... nobody has tested it after all... The vertical momentium is probably gonna be a bit more difficult.

Hell, he might be able to SJR a successful grab which would be REALLY useful (*thinks of the possible over-b to dair combos and laughs evilly*)


It would be nice if a universal AT actually helped a low tier char more then the rest of the cast.

 

[worldjem7]

But, Bowser IS recovering his jump by using Side-B, you don't NEED to use your second jump to be able to SJR. What Bowser's Side-B is, is one massive box of cancel that allows you to SJR every time you get near the ground within its duration

Besides, that's the only way he could infinite jump with it is if he was recovering his second jump every time he did it. If you watch my video that I posted, and that is on the first post of this thread, you'll find that. Especially near the end when I do the D-airs, I do a second jump -> Dair -> Side-B SJR.

About Ganon: Well I don't know if it's been tested but Ganon probably couldn't do like Bowser because his Side-B makes him move in a straight line across. He doesn't continue momentum like Bowser does.

 

[storm92]

G&W Results
Dair- For sure no. It's just like Sheik/Link/Toon Links. Can be canceled eventually, but not even close enough of time.
Uair- Yes.
Bair- Yes. Smallest window to pull it off though.
Fair- Surprisingly, no. The gun he pulls out remains with him until he fully lands on the ground from the initial SJR.

R.O.B. Results
Dair- Yes.
Fair- Yes. Fast-fallable too.
Bair- Yes.
Uair- Yes.

Wolf Results
Nair- Yes.
Bair- Yes. FF'able.
Uair- Yes.
Dair- Yes.

Marth Results
Fair- Yes, FF-able. Alternatively, you can do 2.
Dair- No.
Uair- Yes.
Bair- Yes.

More testing wields that ZSS's Dair cannot SJR unless canceled from the top of the screen (exaggeration, yes). So no there.
Sonic's Dair is a definite No.
Ike's Fair is no, not sure about the rest. They looked pretty shaky though.

=D

 

[adumbrodeus]

About Ganon: Well I don't know if it's been tested but Ganon probably couldn't do like Bowser because his Side-B makes him move in a straight line across. He doesn't continue momentum like Bowser does.

Yeah, we got that, BUT it does mean that the move ends before he hits the ground, so if you do it in just the right location (say, cancel the jump into an over-b) then you should be able to do it.

Oh, yeah, there's lag on the ground of the aerial over-b, so it doesn't look like he can SJR out of it.

 

[3xSwords]

But, Bowser IS recovering his jump by using Side-B, you don't NEED to use your second jump to be able to SJR. What Bowser's Side-B is, is one massive box of cancel that allows you to SJR every time you get near the ground within its duration

Besides, that's the only way he could infinite jump with it is if he was recovering his second jump every time he did it. If you watch my video that I posted, and that is on the first post of this thread, you'll find that. Especially near the end when I do the D-airs, I do a second jump -> Dair -> Side-B SJR.

Yeah but I'm going back to the arguement where you said Bowser's klaw jump should be the same as ISJR'ing. But it shouldn't b/c although they work on the same concept Bowser's is unique in that you can cancel at any time. No other ISJR or SJR has this and is a unique AT meant for Bowser only.

 

[worldjem7]

That's like saying "Character A has 2 jumps but character B has 6 jumps so we can't call them jumps because they're unique to that character." sounds stupid right? I thought so too.

Even if Bowser's is unique it should still count as an ISJR because it IS an ISJR. You can still recover a jump at the end of the move just like any other move so just because his can be canceled earlier doesn't mean he shouldn't be included in the list. It just means that you should mark Bowser with an asterisk to note that his is special because he can cancel it earlier.

You shouldn't discriminate on him just because he has an advantage over other characters. The tech is still universal, it's just Bowser has something that's better than everyone else.

 

[3xSwords]

Its not an ISJR b/c an ISJR needs your attack to be near your ending animation while near the ground. But *gasp* for the koopa klaw its at ANY time. Besides I'm not discriminating, I just think its proper that it should be considered separate b/c of the fact that its so unique.

And if a tech is truly universal then it should be performed the same way for each character, and that would be in this case "waiting for an attack animation to end near the ground and jumping." Bowser's is clearly different. Also even though this is a completely ridiculous argument can we keep it going b/c I just love arguing late in the night for some reason. lol

 

[worldjem7]

What I'm considering is the effect and what you're considering is the cause.

I don't think it really matters what causes something to happen if the effect is the same in the end. *coughplayingtowincough*

Bowser has a move that lets him do something that everyone can do but, faster. The effect in the end is still the same. It's not like he gets TWO jumps when he does it, or something crazy to that effect, he only gets one just like everyone else.

And, from the looks of this thread, isn't that what we're trying to accomplish? We're trying to find different ways or easier ways to SJR moves and such to help further the metagame and Bowser is a prime example of a character who can do it with relative ease.

We're not trying to find a single way to do 1 thing, that would be closed-minded and wouldn't really help further the metagame or discoveries of advanced techs.

A Universal Tech doesn't HAVE to be performed the EXACT same way for every character.

Just look at L-canceling in Melee. It wasn't performed EXACTLY the same for every character. Every character had their own timing for each one of their moves. Same goes for wavedashing, every character had to perform it slightly differently to achieve the SAME result.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

What I'm considering is the effect and what you're considering is the cause.

I don't think it really matters what causes something to happen if the effect is the same in the end. *coughplayingtowincough*

That kind of mentality is exactly why it took so long to find out about this. Nobody bothered looking at the cause. Maybe Bowser's klaw can be written down as an exception that is similar to the ISJR due to properties of the attack. But its not an ISJR and should not be considered as such.

 

[worldjem7]

You're taking my statement way out of context there.

I'm not talking about experimenting, I'm talking about classification.

When classing a move or technique the result is what matters most over the cause. Just because someone can do a tech a different way from another character doesn't mean you should make a completely separate class for that one character.

What if we found out that a character had a HARDER time doing SJRs instead of an easier time like Bowser? Would you give it a different class then?

 

[RDK]

So Bowser's ISJR with the Klaw move isn't a true ISJR? What should it be considered then?

And the fact that Bowser (and possibly some other characters) can do this with one of his B moves should spark some sort of experimentation with other characters' B-moves.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Here's that video I said I would post of Lucario's d-air craziness:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zOfW7dFoDOk

 

[bigman40]

Makkun, all of yoshi's aerials can be fastfalled.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not talking about experimenting, I'm talking about classification.

When classing a move or technique the result is what matters most over the cause. Just because someone can do a tech a different way from another character doesn't mean you should make a completely separate class for that one character.

Why should the result be what matters as opposed to the cause in terms of classification?

The result should be a know factor, but the cause well that automatically merits future exploration because more can be discovered by it.

Furthermore, techniques are classified based on how they are done anyway. L-cancel is classified by using the L-button to cancel half the lag of a move for example.

SJR is classified by buffering a jump as the move animation ends to get another jump, whereas Koopa-hopping is classified by using a jump while the move is in effect. Seems like a slight difference, yes, but enough to justify separation.

What if we found out that a character had a HARDER time doing SJRs instead of an easier time like Bowser? Would you give it a different class then?

A char that needed a more esoteric methodology for doing the equivalent to SJR, yes, different methology, different tech, unless it still fits under the tech's core definition.

So Bowser's ISJR with the Klaw move isn't a true ISJR? What should it be considered then?

And the fact that Bowser (and possibly some other characters) can do this with one of his B moves should spark some sort of experimentation with other characters' B-moves.

Koopa hopping, that's what we should consider it, as should we consider any other move that can be canceled into an additional 2nd jump any time during the animation. If we can find one that is.

Regardless, B moves are not exempt, we know it works with Lucas' over-b for example.

Makkun, all of yoshi's aerials can be fastfalled.

I feel Yoshi's match-ups changing... inexplicably... to advantageous.


Seriously, is it just me or does this discovery seem to help Yoshi the most?

 

[3xSwords]

What I'm considering is the effect and what you're considering is the cause.

I don't think it really matters what causes something to happen if the effect is the same in the end. *coughplayingtowincough*

Bowser has a move that lets him do something that everyone can do but, faster. The effect in the end is still the same. It's not like he gets TWO jumps when he does it, or something crazy to that effect, he only gets one just like everyone else.

A Universal Tech doesn't HAVE to be performed the EXACT same way for every character.

Just look at L-canceling in Melee. It wasn't performed EXACTLY the same for every character. Every character had their own timing for each one of their moves. Same goes for wavedashing, every character had to perform it slightly differently to achieve the SAME result.

For one the cause/method of performing is what defines a tech/glitch not the effect. If this were the case then luigi's wavedash and samus' super wavedash would be put under the same category although they are two different things. Also Bowser's koopa jump is only easier not faster.

And a universal tech IS performed the same way, as in, the directions of an AT for one character would be no different than for any other character. For L-Canceling: hit L right before you hit the ground while doing an aerial, for wavedashing: Air dodge into the ground quickly after jumping. So in a sense the method is always the same unless it is character specific and that is what koopa klaw jumping is.

If koopa klaw jumping was same as SJR'ing which is universal. Than the directions for klaw jumping would have to be the same as SJR'ing which is "Time your attack so it ends right above the ground then jump." However, for koopa klawing they are "do a koopa klaw in the air and if you are close to the ground at any point during the klaw animation you can jump." As shown the methods are different but the effect is the same. But since method defines an AT koopa klawing is considered character specific separate from ISJR'ing and SJR'ing.


Edit: Makkun you can also FF marth's bair so update that. I don't have vid but I've done it.

 

[Undrdog]

Somebody who's crazy-amazing at this get me a video of Pit's Nair in action. I've been trying to see if I could make this into a Shield Shredder or something to the effect. I've got every one of his ISJRs to work consistently but this one.

 

[worldjem7]

I never said the result should be considered instead of the cause, I said the result should be considered MOREOVER than the cause.

Of course the cause has some importance in any technique found but, in this case Bowser's cause with his side-b isn't THAT different from what needs to be done by every other character so it doesn't really need to get a whole class to itself.

Bowser's "Koopa Hopping" still fits within the tech's core definition. He's still buffering a jump, and it's still resetting his jumps and taking away one just like a SJR. That slight difference isn't enough to give it a different class.

L-cancelling doesn't mean you hit the L button. L stands for "Lag" because not only can you do it with the L button but, you can do it with the R button and the Z button.

Yes, Samus's Super Wavedash was performed differently but, that's not why they called it "Super". It's called Super because it goes abnormally farther than a regular wavedash would go if performed conventionally. It's still a wavedash just a bigger one so they stick a "Super" tag on the front of it.

So, if you absolutely MUST reclassify Bowser's Side-B SJR then put Super in front of it because what he's doing is still SJR in essense. It's just that his Side-B allows him to do it easier.

This would be appropriate.

PS: 3xSword when I said "Faster" I meant that the Side-B could be performed later so that the jump buffer could still happen but, I guess that was misunderstood.

 

[Ghetto Soldier]

can anyone pm on how to do it with snake and wolfs timeing please

 

[Fatmanonice]

Do dustclouds appear if you do it right? If so, I've got the timing for most characters' nairs. I jump, attack, land and then with practically no lag, jump and do the attack again. Is that right?

 

[Coselm]

I can't do this with TL for the life of me. Can someone please make a video of it with Toon Link, or maybe find out if it even CAN be done with Toon Link?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can't do this with TL for the life of me. Can someone please make a video of it with Toon Link, or maybe find out if it even CAN be done with Toon Link?

According to this thread, it can be done with a vast majority of aerial attacks except Dairs with auto fast fall like Sonic's, ZSS's, and Mr. Game and Watch's.

 

[Makkun]

I'm torn in this argument, although Bowser's Koopa Hopping is a lot easier, and much more different than ISJR, I'm going to list it, as it is the prime example of somehow simplifying ISJR. If it turns out to be the only move that can do this, then I guess we just got unlucky.

@Storm92: Thank you thank you thank you. :33 You helped me out a lot.

@Jeepy: I can't watch that Lucario Dair video right now since I'm at school. :/ Although I'm guessing it's a rapid Dair ISJR? I'm really excited to see how this works out. :3

@bigman40: Thanks for confirming Yoshi's fastfallability. I thought it was possible but wasn't 100% sure.

@Fatmanonice: If dust clouds appear, you're doing it incorrectly.

Also, Bowser's klaw isn't buffering a jump, it's canceling his special with a jump. XD ...Just to intervene. >_>

 

[Nasanieru]

haha this is an amazing find!
I'd put this on par with the WD in terms of application!

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

can anyone pm on how to do it with snake and wolfs timeing please

Snake has a couple of vids up of him doing it in the first post. Just look at them closely if you want an idea of how far off the ground you need to be.

Do dustclouds appear if you do it right? If so, I've got the timing for most characters' nairs. I jump, attack, land and then with practically no lag, jump and do the attack again. Is that right?

Dustclouds should not appear. You should not get any visual indication of landing (Dustclouds, landing/falling lag). You are jumping before touching the floor, except that the game registers you as touching the floor because you are very close to it.