Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

I can't get better than fifth at my local and it's driving me crazy. Got fifth yesterday, lost to ORLY and Rat.

After, like, 9 years with the game, Rat finally switches from Samus to fox. His fox is so frustrating, like you look at it and it doesn't even seem fast or technical, but his spacing is really, really good, and he never misses the opportunity for a gimp.

Fvck your mission.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Double post.

So, what do you guys think Kage should be doing more / less of here?

Like, I see shroomed vs. Kage and Bizz, arguably the two best ganons out there now and shroomed makes it look like a joke. This, right here, is the reason that I believe sheik is unbeatable at the top level. Chain grabs are the only thing that can equalize the matchup at this point, and kage didn't get a single grab... and there was only one situation where he potentially could have gone for it.

And I played shroomed in friendlies at dismantle a couple of weeks ago and it was pretty similar to the above video lol. Consistent 2 and 3 stocks, couldn't take a game off of his sheik. I did great against his Marth, took a few games, but we know that matchup is doable.

Thoughts, @ -ACE- ? @ Divinokage ?

 

[tm]

If it's DI away at zero % they should tech chase, not go for the regrab. Much easier. Also none of those sheik have much reason to perfect their punish tree vs ganon lol

 

[tm]

Double post.

So, what do you guys think Kage should be doing more / less of here?

Like, I see shroomed vs. Kage and Bizz, arguably the two best ganons out there now and shroomed makes it look like a joke. This, right here, is the reason that I believe sheik is unbeatable at the top level. Chain grabs are the only thing that can equalize the matchup at this point, and kage didn't get a single grab... and there was only one situation where he potentially could have gone for it.

And I played shroomed in friendlies at dismantle a couple of weeks ago and it was pretty similar to the above video lol. Consistent 2 and 3 stocks, couldn't take a game off of his sheik. I did great against his Marth, took a few games, but we know that matchup is doable.

Thoughts, @ -ACE- ? @ Divinokage ?

He didn't CG. He missed a LOT of edgeguard opportunities too. Other than those big areas he mostly got outplayed / out matchup'd. But I actually think it's one of the MUs that Kage could improve at a ton. The punish game is MUCH easier vs sheik than other top tiers if you practice it out imo. His conversions on spacies is ridiculous but vs sheik he wins by just outplaying them in neutral a ton, which is way more work. Yes sheik is terrible but if you aren't doing everything you can with your punish and edgeguards, then you probably don't deserve to win it...
My 2c

 

[Divinokage]

Well he caught me in things I wasn't ready for such as fairing on platforms from below.. I did not think that would hit at all, his tricks are something else thats for sure. I know I can do better though but theres not much opportunity to play as much as I used to.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/TBnMd_yxPPw

Match made it to YouTube. Vs Doc. Drunk lulz.

 

[-ACE-]

Double post.

So, what do you guys think Kage should be doing more / less of here?

Like, I see shroomed vs. Kage and Bizz, arguably the two best ganons out there now and shroomed makes it look like a joke. This, right here, is the reason that I believe sheik is unbeatable at the top level. Chain grabs are the only thing that can equalize the matchup at this point, and kage didn't get a single grab... and there was only one situation where he potentially could have gone for it.

And I played shroomed in friendlies at dismantle a couple of weeks ago and it was pretty similar to the above video lol. Consistent 2 and 3 stocks, couldn't take a game off of his sheik. I did great against his Marth, took a few games, but we know that matchup is doable.

Thoughts, @ -ACE- ? @ Divinokage ?

Sheik is a problem. Top spacies, and spacies that play the mu well are a problem. High/top level falcons, peaches, and marths are a problem. Our neutral games need to get better, as well as punish game. Still no one really cg's. I cg more than any Ganon.

 

[Coastward]

I can't get better than fifth at my local and it's driving me crazy. Got fifth yesterday, lost to ORLY and Rat.

After, like, 9 years with the game, Rat finally switches from Samus to fox. His fox is so frustrating, like you look at it and it doesn't even seem fast or technical, but his spacing is really, really good, and he never misses the opportunity for a gimp.

Fvck your mission.

5th place brothers lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

420XG BruhBruh B)

 

[Divinokage]

Sheik is a problem. Top spacies, and spacies that play the mu well are a problem. High/top level falcons, peaches, and marths are a problem. Our neutral games need to get better, as well as punish game. Still no one really cg's. I cg more than any Ganon.

TRY TO CG TOP PLAYERS!

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league ayyy renth is playing :D

 

[-ACE-]

TRY TO CG TOP PLAYERS!

?? I've played many top players. Everything is reaction. What are they going to do, DI behind? Partial DI? Ez$

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Does anybody know how to add skins on 420XX?

 

[Superspright]

?? I've played many top players. Everything is reaction. What are they going to do, DI behind? Partial DI? Ez$

I agree. With practice it shouldn't matter what your opponent is doing. Even slight DI doesn't really stop it. It just makes it trickier.

 

[-ACE-]

The first time I grabbed a Falco at 60% and cg'd him to 140% and ended with wizkick I basically had to hide my boner lmfao.

You have to know the intricacies of the cg. Sometimes I catch myself pivot dash jc grabbing for DI behind at lower percents. Below 65% turnaround grab covers it fine. Then at higher percents (when you're looking to finish the cg) even partial DI behind requires a pivot dash jc grab.

Pummel as much as you can. If he's mashing buttons he'll get out about as quickly as a level 9 computer will based on his %. If he's not mashing buttons pummel him more for free damage and making the next regrab easier. Pummeling as much as possible also limits your opponent's ability to gain options while being cg'd. If he DI's away repeatedly and you keep having to dash jc grab him, he may be getting closer to a plat or ledge (low%) which could interrupt your plan. Pummeling keeps him in place longer.

You want to be good af at timing the dash out of dthrow. Lots of people like to DI behind (those more versed in the mu respect the uthrow and it's capabilities.... plat techchases, bair, pivot uair, the underused ftilt, etc) so it's great to have that one down (practice vs lvl 1's). And once you see they like to do this the uthrow becomes deadly.

Once they fear the uthrow more, and thus, di'ing behind, you'll get some freebies because jc grabbing DI away is cake. Then you just have to be ready for partial DI.

^^^ scenarios where falco is at 50-100 and Fox is at 65-100 basically.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/OL1t4bQbMs0

This is s really old vid but if you go to the 2:00 mark you'll see me get a grab on PP and he absolutely will not DI behind. I went for uthrow on a hard read that he'd switch it up. He knew he'd lose his stock so he kept DI'ing away. I should have just keep regrabbing. He was about 2-3 more regrabs away from the purple boot of doom.

 

[-ACE-]

Also here's drunk ace getting bodied by Rula

https://youtu.be/zL29SMce4Ok

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm really thinking that if I want to get a grab in neutral, that doing a dash grab has a lot more leniency (better range) than jump cancel grabbing. Sure, you're in more lag if you miss, but only if you miss. So if you want to maximize your grab range potential cause you have a read in neutral, why wouldn't you use the longer one? I've said it before and I'll say it again, you'll still be punished for missing a JC grab as much as if you whiff a dash grab. The lag isn't that much more and most punishes will probably be the same regardless.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm really thinking that if I want to get a grab in neutral, that doing a dash grab has a lot more leniency (better range) than jump cancel grabbing. Sure, you're in more lag if you miss, but only if you miss. So if you want to maximize your grab range potential cause you have a read in neutral, why wouldn't you use the longer one? I've said it before and I'll say it again, you'll still be punished for missing a JC grab as much as if you whiff a dash grab. The lag isn't that much more and most punishes will probably be the same regardless.

Better range at the cost of more start up time and ending lag? Thats almost always the difference between if you get the grab or not.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The cg is a necessary part of the ganon / sheik matchup, I agree. My point though, was that Kage didn't get a single grab because it's basically impossible at that level. The only thing I really disagreed with was not going to the grab after the stomp game two.

Locke, I agree with Kage on this one. You get a longer grab range, but it's sooooo slow and very punishable. Missing a jc grab, in my experiences, has lost me the grab so often and it's really annoying. You should be able to space your grabs, anyway, like the grab range shouldn't matter.

Here's some cool **** that you guys should do:
Ganons need to do this more IMO. It works on all Marths because they ALL side-b here or double jump like jabronis! Free stock. It's flashy, but it really does cover space that the ledge drop up air does not.

Also, this is something that I do that isn't done very often. Well, dtilt is amazing, first of all. I knew he was gonna either dash dance or raptor boost to bait out an ftilt, so dtilt covers that extra space. While a lot of ganons do this, they don't even seem to get the conversion off of the tech chase. Dtilt causes knockdown on the fast fallers- abuse it!

My tournament matches didn't make it to the stream Wednesday because they were playing PM, so only the top four got recorded, but if you guys wanna see some friendlies, the links are below. I know they're only friendlies, but ORLY and I were doing some cool **** lol.

VS ORLY

VS ORLY / teh_blazerer / Sago

 

[-ACE-]

fvck dash grab lol. I don't even want to whiff a jab. Moves with bogus cooldown time suck. If dtilt was any less useful I'd hardly ever use it. Damn cooldown...

 

[tm]

The cg is a necessary part of the ganon / sheik matchup, I agree. My point though, was that Kage didn't get a single grab because it's basically impossible at that level. The only thing I really disagreed with was not going to the grab after the stomp game two.

Locke, I agree with Kage on this one. You get a longer grab range, but it's sooooo slow and very punishable. Missing a jc grab, in my experiences, has lost me the grab so often and it's really annoying. You should be able to space your grabs, anyway, like the grab range shouldn't matter.

Meh, getting grabs is definitely possible. You just have to outplay them. Really hard, sure, but far from impossible.

And dash grab is only 1 frame slower startup, still unreactable, and the cooldown is 10 frames longer (33% more). Yeah it's worse but if you were already going to get punished for whiffing a normal grab, you're probably just going to eat the same punish. Imo if the spacing is right, or you're going to get punished anyway, you might as well go for it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Is it only 1 frame? It seems like I miss a ton of grabs after stomps / dsmash etc because I miss the jump cancel.

 

[Orah]

Is it only 1 frame? It seems like I miss a ton of grabs after stomps / dsmash etc because I miss the jump cancel.

Maybe you missed because a failed jc grab is just a dash grab and not necessarily a boost grab.

Grab= fast grab with short range
Dash grab = slow grab with long range
Jc grab = FAST grab with long range
Boost grab = slow grab with LONGER range

Gotta know when to go fast and when to go long

 

[Orah]

Get a tech chase to a side platform
Waveland grab > down throw> down smash> wiz kick off stage> dj up-air/fair/dair/bair/ up-b

Just thinking of a crazy way to get ppl off stage and chase them to their doom. Could potentially put you in a good position to KO them off stage near the blast lines. And since you have the height advantage of the platform you can always come back safely. Probably super janky but so is Ganon.
I rest my case.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol. Well if you're looking for crazy ways to get people offstage you're on the right track. Down-b offstage to dj uair can work depending on DI, if you give zero fvcks about wizkicking offstage (lol).

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

So nobody gon answer my question -_-

 

[Divinokage]

Im going to have to learn how to do that dash -> turn around bair while dropping from an edge. Its so sexy but damn the timing is tight to do that. Whats the correct input to do that again?

That mixup seems to serve as a mindgame that you are going for a drop zone fair but then you bair instead. Its much faster and surprising.

 

[-ACE-]

Edit: misunderstood kages's post. I think it's a one frame window.

 

[tm]

Im going to have to learn how to do that dash -> turn around bair while dropping from an edge. Its so sexy but damn the timing is tight to do that. Whats the correct input to do that again?

That mixup seems to serve as a mindgame that you are going for a drop zone fair but then you bair instead. Its much faster and surprising.

If you mean pivoting and sliding off the platform backwards, it's a one frame input at certain spacings, and impossible at others. If you mean pivoting, then platform dropping into bair (or pivot / shieild-stop -> shield-drop bair), that's much more reasonable.

 

[Divinokage]

If you mean pivoting and sliding off the platform backwards, it's a one frame input at certain spacings, and impossible at others. If you mean pivoting, then platform dropping into bair (or pivot / shieild-stop -> shield-drop bair), that's much more reasonable.

No I mean from the edges of like FD or something.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

So ima have the regular skins on 20XX cause nobody wants to reply to me -_-? no Darkbull Ganon?

 

[tm]

No I mean from the edges of like FD or something.

Ah. Same as first situation. Depending on your spacing sometimes it's just not possible, and whenever it is you have to be frame perfect.

So ima have the regular skins on 20XX cause nobody wants to reply to me -_-? no Darkbull Ganon?

Sorry bro can't help you. Pretty sure there's a smashboards thread all about that stuff tho, just look up 20XX texture mods / skins

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Still no one really cg's. I cg more than any Ganon.

I think chaingrabbing Sheik is necessary to win at this point. Spacies I think your ideas about conditioning are good, but I am not sure about chaingrabbing to death even if you have practiced it. I like Linguini's philosophy on the chaingrab, using it a little bit to manipulate your opponents techs. I think optimally combining your conditioning tactics with Linguini's tactics would be the most optimal way to abuse chaingrabs in that mu. Do two or three chaingrabs, try to get a tech chase. Next time you get a grab and they try to DI behind you uthrow and punish hard.

What do you think would be the best thing to do in your percent range (50-100) when under a platform? Should you immediately put them on the platform every time for that confirmed uair that will put them offstage? Or chaingrab?

Oh and I also don't think people are using chaingrabs enough in the Falcon mu. The only person I see doing it is Eikelmann. It looks like there are a lot of different DIs that are common from Falcons at various percent ranges that lead into a chaingrab. Like you cant really do it for very long, but you can, like the spacies, influence their techs by punishing their poor DI with chaingrabs until they do what you want. And the chain grab on Falcon works with uthrow and dthrow from around like 40-60ish percent. So you can do some tricky **** to catch your opponent offguard. I think uthrow is best from 40-50 and dthrow is best around 60. After that go back to uthrow when you can start getting some guaranteed things off of the grab.

The cg is a necessary part of the ganon / sheik matchup, I agree. My point though, was that Kage didn't get a single grab because it's basically impossible at that level.

That's not true. Kage got several grabs in that set. Unfortunately, he did fthrow and tried to cheese with some gimps. One of the setups was kind of interesting, though. fthrow onto platform to uair. But other than that, I think chaingrabbing Sheik, regardless of their level, is doable. You have a lot of time to react to their DI. Doesn't matter how good their DI is, it's very much doable. The spacies, on the other hand, are way too hard to chaingrab consistently for long periods of time. But doing it a few times in a row consistently is doable, I think.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Are you gonna give me a money-back guarantee?? lol. You won't escape anything even 5/10 times against someone who has their sheik ganon punishes well practiced.

That MU you can only do so much defensively; at a certain level your opponent isn't going to flub such basic stuff and you'll really have to focus on having a smarter neutral game. Of course, if there are gaping holes in your opponent's punish game, then you need to abuse the hell out of it. Much easier when their grab punishes aren't perfect.

Even if their chaingrabs are on point no matter how you DI you can still do some things to minimize the damage. Try to DI in a way so that they end the chaingrab and the punish in center stage. Like if they are going for the chaingrab until the very last percent where it works, put them in a situation where they aren't going to put you nearly as offstage as they'd like or they will miss the regrab.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh and lmao this is the funniest thing I've heard about all day.

 

[Divinokage]

Those fthrows are supposed to be downthrows >_<

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I figured. But I liked how you made the best of the mistake each time by immediately trying to follow up.

 

[Divinokage]

I figured. But I liked how you made the best of the mistake each time by immediately trying to follow up.

Ya of course, I dont get flustered if something like that happens, if i fail i always try to follow it up and try not to over-extend either. I mean I know I can beat everybody, its a matter of consistency. That top 10 level is unforgiving.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

You should never mess up a down-throw if you buffer it. There's no excuse.