Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

got 2nd in pm, 2nd in teams and 5th in singles today. made a **** ton of cash, feels good.

got double eliminated by sheiks though, ****s so demoralizing. **** sheik players and **** em hard.

Nice job, Coast. Feels good to make money lol.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about sheik and I've come to realize, while it may be unwinnable at the highest level of play, it's doable at mid level and even high level. Hard as ****, but doable. ****, look at Ian- he just beat Tope!

Think of it like this: one bad down smash that you read leads into stomp, leads into grab, leads into the stock if you chain grab and then edge guard properly. I still can't perform the chain grab perfectly, but I can always get a good few grabs that lead into up air strings / a bair that send the sheik off stage.

The edge guarding thread that ACE started years ago has crucial information on edge guarding sheik. I can't tell you how many times that doing the ledge get up has won me the stock, as opposed to ledge hop (which is what I was doing earlier). Wait until they stand up and grab --> bair. If they manage to squeeze just between you and the ledge, pivot and jab or pivot a low angled ftilt. Rinse and repeat.

I can honestly say that I haven't lost to a sheik that's below my level since Big House 4, when I lost to JMOAN. Well, and a rando at my school because I was drunk LOL, but I 2- then 3-stocked him a week prior.

 

[Coastward]

Nice job, Coast. Feels good to make money lol.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about sheik and I've come to realize, while it may be unwinnable at the highest level of play, it's doable at mid level and even high level. Hard as ****, but doable. ****, look at Ian- he just beat Tope!

Think of it like this: one bad down smash that you read leads into stomp, leads into grab, leads into the stock if you chain grab and then edge guard properly. I still can't perform the chain grab perfectly, but I can always get a good few grabs that lead into up air strings / a bair that send the sheik off stage.

The edge guarding thread that ACE started years ago has crucial information on edge guarding sheik. I can't tell you how many times that doing the ledge get up has won me the stock, as opposed to ledge hop (which is what I was doing earlier). Wait until they stand up and grab --> bair. If they manage to squeeze just between you and the ledge, pivot and jab or pivot a low angled ftilt. Rinse and repeat.

I can honestly say that I haven't lost to a sheik that's below my level since Big House 4, when I lost to JMOAN. Well, and a rando at my school because I was drunk LOL, but I 2- then 3-stocked him a week prior.

its so hard to find a way in though. like, i dont really want to approach in the first place, but i end up getting camped out all the time. gonna grind on VODs and find things to add to my play. i definitely coulda won singles.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

its so hard to find a way in though. like, i dont really want to approach in the first place, but i end up getting camped out all the time. gonna grind on VODs and find things to add to my play. i definitely coulda won singles.

Don't approach sheik. I mean, you can approach sheik, but not in the traditional sense. Get in close enough so that you don't get hit by annoying needles, but then bait them in. Wall out with bairs and low ftilts.

If your opponent is (stupidly) trying to throw needles at you from a platform down to the middle, just wait it out. Chances are they're hoping for the needles to connect and then drop --> fair you. Don't let it happen; let the needles whiff, then get under the platform. Smart sheiks won't let you get here in the first place, but once you're under her, a lot of them will panic and do dumb **** like use their double jump to avoid your up air. Free stock at high percent.

As for sheiks that just charge the needles under a platform: **** those scrubs. How is that even enjoyable? Anyway... if you're in a position where you have to approach, shielding the needles isn't too terrible from a safe distance. And because most of these morons are scrubs anyway, they think that needle spam --> dash attack is a real thing, so holding shield is actually a pretty good option. Free shield grab.

If you're in a position where you don't have to approach these idiots, then don't... Lol. Give them a taste. Camp platforms. Full hop stomp (so you can DJ on to the top plat) when they jump at you and then get back to the ground when it's safe and they can't needle.

The basics of the matchup are: approach enough so that needles aren't viable and then make them do it. Jab won't stop a dashing, crouching, or down smashing sheik, but one stomp can eventually lead to a stock. If they ftilt, CC --> d tilt can work wonders.

 

[-ACE-]

You have to be in control of your character (as opposed to being in lag, mid-move) at the moment she approaches. That is the essence of bait and punish... Have enough time to counter her approach when she thinks you don't. Also, don't be like me and SD or miss wavelands and give her a free grab LOL. A strong ground/cc game helps a lot, and will give you free uairs when she starts jumping more often.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

You also don't wanna be a premier red Fl Ganon player, who's only been playing 3 months, and gets Plup's sheik in Winner's R2 -_-

 

[Orah]

Okay so I know jc grab is really good for getting the cg on ppl but I was playing with some friends and they showed me a technique called a dash canceled grab. Where you dash attack but press l or r and it increases the range of your dash grab . I was skeptical at first but did some research and found the correct term is boost grab.

And according to this https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2zsudq/boost_grab_stats/

This gives ganon more range than a jc grab and a regular dash grab. Usually I always try jc grabbing but I noticed how it halts most of your momentum. As soon as I tried implementing boost grabs it made chain grabbing sheik so much easier. The dash attack gets canceled into a dash grab which may come out slower than a jc grab but the range of the boost grab is substantial.

Thoughts?

 

[-ACE-]

Boost grab. It's viable, but not as useful as characters with faster dash attacks like sheik. Extreme high% vs spacies jc grab won't work, but dash grab does. Boost grab probably works there too as well as a few other small situations. jc grab is far superior imo

 

[Divinokage]

You dont want to get caught whiffing a dash grab either, youll get punished pretty damn hard if you do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

One thing that works against Sheik is to do a full hop dair and then when you land they think you're going to have lag but you don't because full hop dair auto cancels. So you immediately short hop dair and then punish them from there. When I read about this in Linguini's thread it sounded ridiculous, but for some reason Sheik players actually fall for it quite often.

It's a ganon social thread; go ahead and talk about whatever you want, as long as it isn't dumb @ss $hit like superspright telling everyone about proper diet or whatever.

In regards to up-b: underutilized AF. Good counter to shield dropping, and spot dodging around it does not work because of its active frames. Rolling can work, I guess, but they'll be in their shield to roll, so even that is risky. If they bait it (has happened to me LITERALLY zero times so far), then consequences can obviously be disastrous, so, like anything else, use it sparingly and when you know you've got the read.

That being said, the only way my opponents can get around it is by jumping, so mixing in with up air is obviously a great way to continue hitting your opponent, even if they have frame advantage.

One thing I've been attempting (with varying levels of success) is ledge canceling the up-b, so even if it misses, you're safe. People have started calling it out ever since Bizz started doing it, but Eddie J. Howells originally taught me about it and (shameless self-plug incoming) I've been doing it for at least a year prior to Bizz - or at least prior to him popularizing it. I'd label it an extremely viable technique when used sparingly.

Do you think it would be good to use as shield pressure on the ground? For example do bair to up-b instead of ftilt? I tried it recently and it worked, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use too much.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The edge guarding thread that ACE started years ago has crucial information on edge guarding sheik. I can't tell you how many times that doing the ledge get up has won me the stock, as opposed to ledge hop (which is what I was doing earlier). Wait until they stand up and grab --> bair. If they manage to squeeze just between you and the ledge, pivot and jab or pivot a low angled ftilt. Rinse and repeat.

Yeah Gravy taught me to do the getup when you're <100%. He told me to do it right when Sheik poofs so that you avoid the hitbox and if she goes straight for the ledge this timing covers that. And you have enough time to bair her if she goes straight up and tries to fall to the ledge. But ledgehop also works if you just wait until she re-appears after poofing. If you react properly, you can get to her before she gets out of lag. And since you wait to ledgehop, the option of going straight to the ledge is covered. There's also the light shield edgeguard tactic where you light shield at the last second when she has already committed to going straight for the ledge and then pretty much marth killer her. Although I think this only works when she's close enough for her hitbox to hit your shield. Anyway, there are a lot of different methods that work well for edgeguarding Sheik.

I'm not sure about grabbing Sheik for edgeguards, though. Usually, edgeguard scenarios are taking place when she's like at 60+%. So when you get the grab, you're only going to get that bair if she DIs behind you. If she DIs in front of you or on a platform, you're forced to either regrab or use uair. On a stage like FD, you could just continue the chaingrab until like 80% and then fsmash or usmash depending on her DI. On a stage where she can DI onto platforms, you're going to have to use uair to cover all the tech options on reaction. And that's not as good as a bair. So I think it's much easier to avoid putting yourself in these kinds of situations where she has a chance to escape and just continue bairing her offstage until she dies. And as you said, if she lands at that awkward position between you and the ledge, jab works well. I believe I've seen Renth just use the reverse hitbox of jab to get a free bair.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh and sorry for the triple post guys, but I have a cool idea for those of you that can shield drop. Light shield on a platform so you bait an aerial on your shield. At the last second, use your other shoulder button to regular shield so when their aerial connects, you don't have as much shield stun and suddenly their seemingly safe aerial on a light shield is not safe on your normal shield and you can punish with a shield drop uair. I got this idea by watching Plup do some **** like this with Samus.

 

[-ACE-]

You are never stuck with uair if she DI's in front, pivot bair is always an option.

This is a magus post from the old linguini Q&A thread (about peach but still). Not many people pivot to get a better aerial out of dthrow:


If they DI behind from around 60%+ you can dash shorthop f-air them instead of b-airing (only dash just enough to turn you around or they can sometimes n-air in time). This also works on other characters that don't fall too fast when they DI behind. It's also really good for Marth, especially if they get up around 130 or so when the b-air can start to sometimes miss with the way he spins from the throw.

Also against Peach you can KO with u-smash if they DI away or don't DI from about 60-80. You can do it in place from 60-65 (has more horizontal range than you'd think), but after that you have to do a really short dash and immediately jumpcancel into the u-smash or it can miss if they DJ away. The JC one doesn't perfectly combo, but if you do it right they don't have enough time to do anything about it either. It might not kill on the really high ceiling stages, but it will at least do like 22 damage or whatever it is. Past 80 they go too high so just start f-airing instead.

With the guaranteed f-air/u-smash 60-80 and f-air past 80 they get ***** no matter how they DI, especially if you get a grab near the edge facing the middle of the stage =D

Another thing is if they DI behind you below like 10 damage they can n-air before you can b-air, but you can do a quick dash behind and immediately SH into an u-air, and if they tried to n-air you'll easily be able to reach them with a 2nd after DJing and maybe something else afterwards.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm definitely doing pivot fair out of dthrow for DI behind on certain characters at high% from now on, namely Marth and Ganon dittos. It's definitely possible to whiff the bair at certain percents.

It's also great to know that stepping forward before usmash increases not only the threshold for usmash to connect but it also works for DI away.

 

[spider_sense]

Linguini - I see you lurking, how do you deal with constant Fox pressure? Porkchops Fox doesn't even give me room to breathe. I feel like I can't get around of his situations but I know what he's doing I just have no real way to stop it. Does anybody also know an applicable way to smash DI waveshining without the worry of getting nair'ed or dash danced baited because I rolled?

 

[-ACE-]

You were rolling a little too much vs porkchops the other night. Wavelanding more in neutral helps when they expect an aerial.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i believe at this point that sheik is as doable as falcon, but that the matchup is very very dynamic. i have no way to describe it and it's still very bewildering to me.

 

[-ACE-]

i believe at this point that sheik is as doable as falcon, but that the matchup is very very dynamic. i have no way to describe it and it's still very bewildering to me.

Nahhh. LMAO.

No.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Just because you're good at a matchup doesn't mean it's even dude, lol. Falcon is easier to grab, easier to combo and easier to hit.

Falcon is a fast faller, which means tech chases galore. In addition, falcon has such a ****ty tech roll, while sheik's is longer and better.

Falcon is also much, much easier to gimp... a failed gimp attempt on sheik can and usually DOES lead to a loss of your stock.

Jab is actually viable in the falcon matchup, but in the sheik matchup, it's not even a guaranteed hit when it otherwise would be. Sheik can fair you off of a down throw, whereas falcon will knee you off of an up throw. About the same, but sheik's fair is, IMO, better because of the trajectory.

Both are pretty easy to edge guard, but falcon is slightly easier and sheik edge guards ganon better than falcon does.

Falcon is around 6-4, sheik is about 7-3, maybe worse.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ spider_sense do you mean while you're getting waveshined or to avoid it?

I smash DI waveshines depending on stage position and percent and generally buffer roll after. I can go into more detail if anyone's interested.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

As far as the Sheik matchup goes, I'm noticing that we're going to have to start using more low hits since her crouch goes under a good bit of your standing moves. Sheiks that know how to abuse crouch, dtilt, and utilt will be really hard to deal with cause they can just swoop in on you, crouched, and do whatever move pleases them. This of course is just one scenario.

In neutral, I feel like you need to bait Sheik a lot with your jumping and wavelanding. Double jump mixups and not fast falling mixups I think are crucial in this matchup to tricking Sheik into getting her to shield or to do a risky move like dash-attack or boost-grab you if she feels in range. For example, if Sheik feels like she can dash attack you at a certain range, as long as you weave in and out of that range, you can bait her to come in with a dash-attack, read it and stomp her for it. I think getting stomps on Sheik is so much more valuable than any other move that you can get on her simply because they can easily lead to grabs and low and mid percents. Stomps, low-bairs, down-angled ftilt, (dtilt is unsafe, too slow), and late retreating upairs are going to be the moves that you'll want to use the most vs Sheik when she is in neutral. I think as long as you keep a certain distance from Sheik, jumping is safe as even if she dashes forward and jumps into a fair or nair, she has pretty bad aerial mobility, enough to the point where I feel like Ganon's long hitboxes will outrange her if you keep the spacing game up. Even jumping can help you get around needles, you just have to keep your distance. Think of the optimal distance as your max range fair on her shield, or where you'd be safe to waveland in on her.

On another note, I think boost grabbing when doing tech-chasing is actually a good idea, because you're starting the grab sooner and you are reaching your opponent quicker. So to get that extra little distance I'd say boost grabbing is a good idea. Sure, if you whiff, you'll get punished for it, but you get punished for whiffing JC grabs now don't you? The more accurate you are with landing the boost grabs the less you have to worry about... well not being accurate with them lol

 

[tm]

You are never stuck with uair if she DI's in front, pivot bair is always an option.

This is a magus post from the old linguini Q&A thread (about peach but still). Not many people pivot to get a better aerial out of dthrow:


If they DI behind from around 60%+ you can dash shorthop f-air them instead of b-airing (only dash just enough to turn you around or they can sometimes n-air in time). This also works on other characters that don't fall too fast when they DI behind. It's also really good for Marth, especially if they get up around 130 or so when the b-air can start to sometimes miss with the way he spins from the throw.

Also against Peach you can KO with u-smash if they DI away or don't DI from about 60-80. You can do it in place from 60-65 (has more horizontal range than you'd think), but after that you have to do a really short dash and immediately jumpcancel into the u-smash or it can miss if they DJ away. The JC one doesn't perfectly combo, but if you do it right they don't have enough time to do anything about it either. It might not kill on the really high ceiling stages, but it will at least do like 22 damage or whatever it is. Past 80 they go too high so just start f-airing instead.

With the guaranteed f-air/u-smash 60-80 and f-air past 80 they get ***** no matter how they DI, especially if you get a grab near the edge facing the middle of the stage =D

Another thing is if they DI behind you below like 10 damage they can n-air before you can b-air, but you can do a quick dash behind and immediately SH into an u-air, and if they tried to n-air you'll easily be able to reach them with a 2nd after DJing and maybe something else afterwards.

so good. thanks for the revive.

Be careful about jumping too much vs sheik. Her run in -> fair has surprising range and comes out super fast (in the exact right space if you are above her)

 

[Linguini]

lol griceon i'll show you in person next week. As for di'ing out of a perfect waveshine...impossible. fox is op lul

 

[X WaNtEd X]

lol griceon i'll show you in person next week. As for di'ing out of a perfect waveshine...impossible. fox is op lul

Yeah I had this exact talk with a top 5 Fox main in my region. He advised me not to get shined to begin with.

 

[Renth]

lol griceon i'll show you in person next week. As for di'ing out of a perfect waveshine...impossible. fox is op lul

well if you're gonna assume tas fox u should assume tas sdi from ganon since no player is going to consistently be "perfect"



and spoiler alert but even decent mix up on sdi is unreactable

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Agreed. Perfect waveshine is unavoidable, but nobody is perfect... at least not yet. Primo SDI works against foxes on the level of kels, and quite consistently, actually. If you mix up SDI in and then out or vice-versa, a lot of the time, you can get that buffered roll.

I like to hold the c-stick in the direction I choose to SDI, hold R and then flick the control stick accordingly. I'm not sure if the c-stick makes any difference in terms of SDI. ASDI maybe?

In my experience, sometimes they want to continue the waveshine (instead of up smash) and you've been SDI'ing in. SDI out and they might miss that next shine. Do the opposite and they might shine you the other way or miss the up smash completely, giving you a free tilt.

I like to SDI in for the first couple until I'm near the edge and then SDI out hard. I know it's gonna end in an up smash and your opponent is fixed on a certain length. If they predict it, you're screwed. If not, you're still kinda screwed because you're basically out of space, but at least you didn't get up smashed lol.

There's a lot to mess up with regards to waveshining, and if you make it harder for your opponent to be perfect, there's a higher chance that they'll screw up. Not that it's exactly reassuring in that matchup of course.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Falcon is around 6-4, sheik is about 7-3, maybe worse.

i can't believe that to be true. i guess i'll have to prove it somehow.

i only feel like fox is 70-30 out of these three matchups.

Be careful about jumping too much vs sheik. Her run in -> fair has surprising range and comes out super fast (in the exact right space if you are above her)

yeah jump is pretty bad vs sheik. gotta play it like street fighter.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

also btw i have this gfycat for you guys from my grand finals set this past weekend. you guys are really going to enjoy the matches i played i think.

http://gfycat.com/TerribleEllipticalBangeltiger

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Agreed. Perfect waveshine is unavoidable, but nobody is perfect... at least not yet. Primo SDI works against foxes on the level of kels, and quite consistently, actually. If you mix up SDI in and then out or vice-versa, a lot of the time, you can get that buffered roll.

I like to hold the c-stick in the direction I choose to SDI, hold R and then flick the control stick accordingly. I'm not sure if the c-stick makes any difference in terms of SDI. ASDI maybe?

In my experience, sometimes they want to continue the waveshine (instead of up smash) and you've been SDI'ing in. SDI out and they might miss that next shine. Do the opposite and they might shine you the other way or miss the up smash completely, giving you a free tilt.

I like to SDI in for the first couple until I'm near the edge and then SDI out hard. I know it's gonna end in an up smash and your opponent is fixed on a certain length. If they predict it, you're screwed. If not, you're still kinda screwed because you're basically out of space, but at least you didn't get up smashed lol.

There's a lot to mess up with regards to waveshining, and if you make it harder for your opponent to be perfect, there's a higher chance that they'll screw up. Not that it's exactly reassuring in that matchup of course.

And how can I practice doing any of this?

 

[-ACE-]

also btw i have this gfycat for you guys from my grand finals set this past weekend. you guys are really going to enjoy the matches i played i think.

http://gfycat.com/TerribleEllipticalBangeltiger

Badass. Looking smooth on the plats.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You are never stuck with uair if she DI's in front, pivot bair is always an option.

I never thought about this. Tested it and you're right. But I still don't think grabbing is good for edgeguards on Sheik because that pivot bair is just going to send them in the direction your uair would've. Sure, it's better. But I'd rather send them more offstage in the same direction.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah it's much better to just bair them back offstage if possible, until they're at kill%

 

[PseudoTurtle]

And how can I practice doing any of this?

I didn't really practice this on my own (no way to do it), but I've been playing for over 3 years now, so I'm not exactly new to being waveshined.

Idk how to practice this, really, but get used to the waveshine timing, it's not really that difficult. Maybe get a buddy who can waveshine and have him waveshine you.

There are ways to practice SDI, too, if that's what you're asking.

 

[-ACE-]

Get used to SDI'ing everything. Shine is just faster.

 

[Divinokage]

i believe at this point that sheik is as doable as falcon, but that the matchup is very very dynamic. i have no way to describe it and it's still very bewildering to me.

You really need to play top Sheiks at this point.

 

[-ACE-]

He plays Plup, I don't get it lol

 

[Divinokage]

He plays Plup, I don't get it lol

In tournament?

 

[-ACE-]

Tournament or not plups sheik is crazy and great practice. But should also serve as good evidence of how bad the mu is.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I can't wait to see Plup's Sheik vs top spacies. I feel like I've seen him play like Twitch's Fox and that's it. >_>

I'm sure he has to have played some recent sets with Porkchops.

Edit: Watching his sets with Colbol now.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol nah watch his more recent sets with westballz/kels

 

[RedmanSSBM]

The day Kage or some Ganondorf beats KirbyKaze will be a day of great glory.