Don't use Lucas (or Ness) in tournaments

[Rapid_Assassin]

That only works against tether characters (who can't do the regrab anyway)

 

[goodoldganon]

I have always disliked the Mother characters, but no character deserves to be made nearly unplayable. You have my sympathies guys.

 

[Levitas]

Rapid Assassin, you're half right. DIing fully away escapes marth's grab range.

I don't have the resources to test this right now, but I'd appreciate it if someone could test to see if you can jab before they can Dashgrab Lucas. If he can jab out, great, but if not, at least they can only get a few off before they run out of stage.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's an infinite for all characters except tether grab characters. For the tether grab characters, it's the 20-30% (from grabbing and throwing)

It would require the Lucas player to either be extremely good, or be playing against a tether grab character (many of which beat Lucas without this anyway).

This isn't true. See my list for details on which characters can infinite from this or not. It's actually spot-dodgable on a lot of the cast, and the others will run off to the edge eventually.

However, there are more true infinites than originally thought, including every one of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon, and Wario/Bowser.

Also, Lucas's jab combo isn't an option. Even on characters you'd normally spot dodge, you'll trade hits with them and get grabbed anyway.

 

[distr0ia]

WOW and I thought us Sammys were having a hard time


...that is just unbelievably sh*tty

 

[Doom Squirrel]

I think that this tactic should be banned.

Now before you start replying, listen to this. Why is stalling banned? As Sonic, I could attack my opponent enough to get a percentage lead, then jump under the stage and constantly neutral B over and over again until the time runs out and I win. Almost no other character can counter this (except ROB and a few others), so Sonic now has the advantage against almost every character in the game. But this is banned because, I assume, it makes the game less competitive. The game would be about who could score the first hit, and then running away until the time ran out. It would completely destroy whatever potential there was for Brawl to be competitive. This is also an enforceable ban. You see sonic constantly using his homing attack under a stage? Disqualification. It's that simple.

Now lets compare Sonic's stalling tactic to the infinite grab on Ness and Lucas. It destroys whatever competitive potential that Ness and Lucas. This tactic is so easy that pretty much anyone, when faced with a match against the mother boys, could pick Marth, constantly grab until Ness/Lucas is at a killable percent, and then fsmash. It would be an easy win for the marth player (who might not even main Marth) even though he may be the less skilled out of the two players. However, a ban on this tactic, like Sonic's stall, is easily enforceable. There just needs to be a rule that says "You cannot grab Ness and Lucas again immediately after they escape from a grab". This would ban the infinity aspect of the technique, but still keep its other less game-breaking properties such as attacking out of it. It would make it so that they were slightly worse than before this tactic was known, but at least they are playable.

I would like to say that I did not believe Wobbling should have been banned from melee. It didn't seem like a gamebreaking tactic that it was fessed up to be. In tournaments where it was allowed, the top 8 finishers were not all Ice Climbers. There were plenty of ways to avoid this: don't get grabbed, kill nana off, etc. But Brawl is a different game where grabbing is much more feasible, with dashing sheild grabs and less sheild stun. Ness and Lucas will eventually be grabbed and be infinited in a match.

 

[DrewB008]

i love that brawl gets even worse as time goes on

 

[Paper_Luigi]

I disagree, Doom Squirrel.

 

[AnubisGX]

I main lucas.....SON OF A *****!!!
I didn't need to see this!!! As if winning with lucas isn't hard enough. Now my opponents will read this and fricken **** my ***. Looks like trying to win a tourney with ganondorf. Sigh, I guess it's I'll switch my main to my second.

 

[popsofctown]

consider the only people who seem to disagree are either too unintelligent or too lazy to show you incorrect, I believe you might just have a bill waiting to be passed into law, Doom Squirrel.

 

[Trozz]

My situation is full of blah. I mained Lucas in a tournament and got torn by Snakes, but so did everyone else. I've started playing Snake now... sigh. I still use Lucas on MK because wavebounce pkf owns his face.

Not many people can pull off chain grabbing good enough (unless its someone like ICs) because you can usually escape. If not, go Snake.

.-.

I want SC 2 for a competitive medium

 

[Shibby]

Shibby, you're being a bit melodramatic. This isn't even close to a zero-death.

Desperate times call for desperate measures ...

I'm switching my main to Counter-Strike Source AWP Falco

We will see who bitches when I'm yelling headshot while winning every match.

Who is with me?

 

[Time2Brawl]

i love that brawl gets even worse as time goes on

Ha ha, I was thinking the same thing. Every time I come here (three or four times a week, usually I go straight to ff though) I see a new problem that makes either 1 character invincible, or 1 character unusable.

 

[Trozz]

Patch.
Even a simple one.

 

[Levitas]

There will not be a patch, nor will this be banned.

precedent was set with the DDD throw, as I said, which only affects a few matchups.

This only really affects a few matchups, too, however much it sucks.

We're getting a much better deal than Ness, though.

 

[Mew2King]

Ness counters Lucas

Ness can do this to Lucas but Lucas cannot do it back to Ness, and then Ness can absorb Lucas' PK Thunder if he grabs them to the edge and lets Lucas drop off

DSF originally told me about this on AIM that Marth can infinite Ness, so I did more testing with Vidjo (who mains Metaknight/Lucas, but wanted to main Lucas before I did more testing on this) and found out that most characters can simply dash grab you before your lag ends (especially characters with fast grab-attacks, example - it always works with Marth and Fox, sometimes works with Snake, almost never works with DDD unless you get lucky timing that one of your grab attacks happens just before they escape the grab).

After discovering this, me and vidjo made a topic in back room trying to get this banned but they refuse to ban it.

BTW I'm also in favor of having Wobbling banned in Melee, but usually that's not banned. Even Chu and Azn_Lep think Wobbling is cheap and they only use it to win and they told me that themselves.

 

[RoCkStAr69]

Heh, I laugh at all the people who say "don't get grabbed."

Pretty much every character has a way to work grabs into their game.

It's not that hard w/ anyone.

It seems that Lucas and Ness will be sitting the competetive bench until this rediculous exploit is put to rest somehow.

 

[DrewB008]

Ha ha, I was thinking the same thing. Every time I come here (three or four times a week, usually I go straight to ff though) I see a new problem that makes either 1 character invincible, or 1 character unusable.

i actually do love it though, as i havent liked this game since i first played it in early february

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ness counters Lucas

Ness can do this to Lucas but Lucas cannot do it back to Ness, and then Ness can absorb Lucas' PK Thunder if he grabs them to the edge and lets Lucas drop off

DSF originally told me about this on AIM that Marth can infinite Ness, so I did more testing with Vidjo (who mains Metaknight/Lucas, but wanted to main Lucas before I did more testing on this) and found out that most characters can simply dash grab you before your lag ends (especially characters with fast grab-attacks, example - it always works with Marth and Fox, sometimes works with Snake, almost never works with DDD unless you get lucky timing that one of your grab attacks happens just before they escape the grab).

After discovering this, me and vidjo made a topic in back room trying to get this banned but they refuse to ban it.

BTW I'm also in favor of having Wobbling banned in Melee, but usually that's not banned. Even Chu and Azn_Lep think Wobbling is cheap and they only use it to win and they told me that themselves.

But Lucas can do it to Ness and he doesn't even have to run...

and that SUCKS to hear that the back room are refusing to ban it! I was hoping they'd be a bit of a salvation, but no. Ugh.

 

[JhMS]

Ness counters Lucas

Ness can do this to Lucas but Lucas cannot do it back to Ness, and then Ness can absorb Lucas' PK Thunder if he grabs them to the edge and lets Lucas drop off

DSF originally told me about this on AIM that Marth can infinite Ness, so I did more testing with Vidjo (who mains Metaknight/Lucas, but wanted to main Lucas before I did more testing on this) and found out that most characters can simply dash grab you before your lag ends (especially characters with fast grab-attacks, example - it always works with Marth and Fox, sometimes works with Snake, almost never works with DDD unless you get lucky timing that one of your grab attacks happens just before they escape the grab).

After discovering this, me and vidjo made a topic in back room trying to get this banned but they refuse to ban it.

BTW I'm also in favor of having Wobbling banned in Melee, but usually that's not banned. Even Chu and Azn_Lep think Wobbling is cheap and they only use it to win and they told me that themselves.

Aw men thats so sad .Well at least you tried to get this banned.
I think its the first time a character is TOTALLY USELESS in Smash.So sad.

 

[Tyr_03]

Hmm well I don't think we should just give up on trying to get it banned. Maybe if enough of us put up the argument the back room will reconsider? Surely something as obviously against the competitive spirit as this could easily be argued into nonexistance? With big names like M2K and Vidjo arguing there's a chance? Maybe?

 

[Shibby]

Hmm well I don't think we should just give up on trying to get it banned. Maybe if enough of us put up the argument the back room will reconsider? Surely something as obviously against the competitive spirit as this could easily be argued into nonexistance? With big names like M2K and Vidjo arguing there's a chance? Maybe?

*rant on*

Looks like Sakurai screwed us really good, didn't he even say "I don't want smash to be a competitive game..."


I think we (Ness / Lucas players) are f**ked ...


And I bought a Wii just to play brawl and this how it turns out once I fell in love with this character ...

I am not trying to be emo or a downer but this is not looking good at all ... the backroom shutting down the motion plus what Sakurai said ... dang ladies and gentlemen

Looks like I'll be playing more with Snake or Marth, characters almost more broken than the game itself ... hainsaw:


*rant off*

 

[ZMan]

I'll still main Lucas no matter what, but this does provide an unessisary roadblock. The only possible way around this is if ou rotate the control stick just right to get the control stick in a position where you jump escape. I've done this a few times.

"And it shall be written on his tombstone, 'He made one mistake. One inoscent, little, mistake, and they kicked the living **** out of him'".

 

[Wilhelmina Carmel]

Poor Lucas. I haven't felt this sad since I accidentally read the ending to MOTHER3.

Ok, well, I made that up, M3 made me more depressed but this is still pretty discouraging. I can't imagine me playing with anyone else except for ZSS, but I kind of abandoned her.

Hopefully at some random time, someone'll come up with a whacked out solution to the CG.

 

[thesage]

This is ******** about the back room refusing to ban it. It's like worse than wobbling as it specifically affects two characters, making them unplayable.

What sucks worse is that the best characters in brawl can do it (MK, Marth, Snake). WTF. They need more advantages? Ness had a even matchup with MK before this. Now I have to learn Lucario or something to counter him.

 

[Banjodorf]

Man guys, I feel for you.

I love Lucas, he was such a great character...until this happened.

Such a shame, oh well, at least they're still fun to play casually.

How are the Ness/Lucas mains going to cope?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

We're going to keep using Ness and Lucas as counter picks.

There's no way I'm letting such good characters go to waste.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'm still optimistic that the people in the back room are smart enough to realize this should be banned. Not giving up just yet. I can't believe something this obviously broken would be allowed to be used in tournaments.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'm still optimistic that the people in the back room are smart enough to realize this should be banned. Not giving up just yet. I can't believe something this obviously broken would be allowed to be used in tournaments.

M2K already posted on the Ness boards that the back room refuse to ban it.

 

[Banjodorf]

M2K already posted on the Ness boards that the back room refuse to ban it.

I wonder why that is. It's clearly unfair that characters as improved as Ness and as great as Lucas should just be thrown into the dumpster by such a stupid thing as this.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I wonder why that is. It's clearly unfair that characters as improved as Ness and as great as Lucas should just be thrown into the dumpster by such a stupid thing as this.

I don't know. It probably has something to do with Sirlin or some other toss-pot who makes up rules about competitive gaming and stuff.

Seriously, it's not too much trouble to ban something like this. It really isn't. It'll make everyone happier and fix a huge problem with an otherwise fun game.

 

[Banjodorf]

I don't know. It probably has something to do with Sirlin or some other toss-pot who makes up rules about competitive gaming and stuff.

Seriously, it's not too much trouble to ban something like this. It really isn't. It'll make everyone happier and fix a huge problem with an otherwise fun game.

It really boggles my mind.

I tcant happen to every character, just Ness and Lucas, and it makes such fun characters useless. COmpletely. it's just such a **** stupid thing not to ban it.

Maybe one day, the BR will come to it's senses.

 

[Azuro]

It's just too difficult to spot why it should be banned. As much as this makes Ness and Lucas useless, it ONLY affects them and makes them useless. If it affected more characters negatively, THEN it could go up for a ban.

 

[KonoK]

What the... Nooooooo! This isn't fair! Lucas is my favorite character!

 

[thesage]

Why, it only affects Ness and Lucas. If it affected more characters I would actually be against banning it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's not hard to spot it at all. I like how everybody pretends it's just so hard to monitor something like this in a tournament.

If you're not a robot, you will be able to see the intent to chain grab this way.

 

[menofuntall]

...You know what I'm thinking?

We might, with the slightest chance, be able to discover even more release grab infinites that it becomes a huge problem. And then, it'll be banned and Ness/Lucas can go back to live their daily lives normally. Still a slightest chance, but you really never know.

 

[Banjodorf]

...You know what I'm thinking?

We might, with the slightest chance, be able to discover even more release grab infinites that it becomes a huge problem. And then, it'll be banned and Ness/Lucas can go back to live their daily lives normally. Still a slightest chance, but you really never know.

Well, unfortunately, it's all up to the BR, but we'll see

Funny, I dont even main Ness or Lucas, but I feel you guys' pain, so I'll stick with ya and fight zeh power of the backroom!

Gee... hopefully that wont result in a ban....

 

[thesage]

I think M2K would've tested it by now.

Thinking about it now.... Simna probably first heard of this from M2K.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

M2K already said that the Back room is not going to ban it.