Don't use Lucas (or Ness) in tournaments

[Cort]

Very many characters can simply grab you, continuously grab attack (this forces you to break out in front of them and makes jumping out after being grabbed impossible), and thanks to faulty programming, Lucas and Ness' animations after leaving a grab are so long it allows a person to grab you again. This works with MANY characters vs both Lucas and Ness.

It also allows said characters (plus more, including ones that can't regrab you after) to pull off quick Smash attacks or tilts to kill you after you break out.

This won't be banned from tournaments. This will just make Lucas and Ness useless in them.

Just a heads up (unless ofcourse you want to anyway and get easily and horribly beaten by someone that just presses grab 3 times/second...)

 

[TechnoMonster]

Lucas can DI out of this, Ness cannot. You can also set three buttons to jump and mash jump-break like a mother****er, as well as not get grabbed.

 

[Tyr_03]

I've never come across it but I have heard that Lucas can DI out of the infinite grab atleast. Although I wouldn't be surprised if it still leaves you open to being hit with forward smashes and whatnot.

DON'T GET GRABBED.

I don't know if this means you should never play Ness or Lucas in tournaments but it almost guarantees both of them for low tier or middle tier at best.

 

[Geist]

Sweet, now I know how to completely destroy my friend.

thanks Cort! :bigthumbu

 

[SkYHiGh]

i was wondering how a few people were doing that the other day. I just avoid getting too close to anyone since I don't grab with Lucas anyway there's no need to even get in this situation (from what I've recently learned)

 

[Kaleido]

I went to my friend today ( who play snake) and he also figured this out. as you say its impossible to get out of the "chain grab" if the one who is grabbing you is focused. Some time you might have luck and get out but this is really f*cked up.

 

[zamz]

I guess if you wish to play Lucas in tournement, you need to enter realizing everyone's going to try to grab you. Turn your weakness into your advantage...wait for the missed grab and attack.

 

[Aggression]

rofl what are you talking about, i DI and airdodge right out of chain grabs
99% of the time after about the 2nd grab they miss

not to mention 70% of the time lucas/claus/ness are fighting in the air
theyre not so good on the ground
besides ive already won a tourney with ness/claus

i dont think anyone realizes that you can get chained this way, most the time they just throw you...

 

[Exia 00]

its a shame cause i want to go pro with lucas. some day i will defiy the odds and beat those cheap *******s!

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Who does it work with?

 

[Aggression]

its a shame cause i want to go pro with lucas. some day i will defiy the odds and beat those cheap *******s!

defy what odds? anyone can beat anyone in brawl... i dont even think the earthbounders are that bad, they have some seriously good match ups

 

[Levitas]

Rapid Assassin, it works with marth most notably. I'm not aware of anyone else that can do this to lucas at any percent, and lucas can simply DI the break to make him not get regrabbed starting at 20%.

I agree that it's unwise to use lucas or ness at tournaments, though. (Of course, if nobody plays lucas in an area and you know the matchups far better, it's possible to have an advantage though)

And yes, we've been aware of this for quite some time now.

 

[Powda]

I've been chained all the way across FD then Daired to an oblivian by Falco.

Am I alone?

 

[hoopspr226]

Rapid Assassin, it works with marth most notably. I'm not aware of anyone else that can do this to lucas at any percent, and lucas can simply DI the break to make him not get regrabbed starting at 20%.

I agree that it's unwise to use lucas or ness at tournaments, though. (Of course, if nobody plays lucas in an area and you know the matchups far better, it's possible to have an advantage though)

And yes, we've been aware of this for quite some time now.

Are you saying that even though Lucas/Ness can't be "chaingrabbed" infinitely, the disadvantage is still substantial enough to warrant not playing them at tournaments or are you saying that they are just not good enough overall (notwithstanding the grab factor) to be used in tournaments?

 

[Cort]

I've never come across it but I have heard that Lucas can DI out of the infinite grab atleast. Although I wouldn't be surprised if it still leaves you open to being hit with forward smashes and whatnot.

DON'T GET GRABBED.

I don't know if this means you should never play Ness or Lucas in tournaments but it almost guarantees both of them for low tier or middle tier at best.

Good luck not getting grabbed with Brawl's broken shield mechanics.

Sweet, now I know how to completely destroy my friend.

thanks Cort! :bigthumbu

np

I guess if you wish to play Lucas in tournement, you need to enter realizing everyone's going to try to grab you. Turn your weakness into your advantage...wait for the missed grab and attack.

You can't really rely on your opponent sucking to win

rofl what are you talking about, i DI and airdodge right out of chain grabs
99% of the time after about the 2nd grab they miss

not to mention 70% of the time lucas/claus/ness are fighting in the air
theyre not so good on the ground
besides ive already won a tourney with ness/claus

i dont think anyone realizes that you can get chained this way, most the time they just throw you...

Congratulations, you won a scrub tournament.

Who does it work with?

Most of the cast?

 

[SkYHiGh]

Doesn't it work with everyone cept like.. Ness and Lucas, and it only doesn't work against Luigi? I just read about it and tried it out with DeDeDe but I still don't think it's that hard to avoid being grabbed.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The reason this works is because Ness and Lucas have a horrible amount of lag after breaking out of a hold. Enough lag, in fact, for the opponent to run up to you and grab you again, or hit you with a smash attack.

Even if you take the chain grab out of the equation, that amounts to your opponent landing a smash attack on you WHENEVER YOU GET GRABBED.

Dammit Sakurai!

*changes main to Lucario*

 

[Cort]

Doesn't it work with everyone cept like.. Ness and Lucas, and it only doesn't work against Luigi? I just read about it and tried it out with DeDeDe but I still don't think it's that hard to avoid being grabbed.

What.. are you talking about?

 

[SkYHiGh]

What.. are you talking about?

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=8218#p8218

 

[Levitas]

Cort, do other characters have enough time to initiate a dash grab before the stun wears off? Otherwise this "most of the cast" thing is competely wrong. It sort of works with marth w/o moving, but really only on Ness. Lucas can slide far enough away that a dash grab is required for the regrab, which leads to my question.

Also, @ whoever quoted me, I'm saying that grab shennanigans nonwithstanding, there are only a few characters that should be considered for tournament use. And Lucas is not one of them.

 

[hoopspr226]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=8218#p8218

Are you... an idiot?

That link has nothing to do with this topic. We're talking about a pseudo chaingrab that many/all characters can perform on lucas and ness not Dedede's chain grab.

 

[Tyr_03]

ha remember when people were saying that Brawl is more balanced than Melee? Anyhow if you want to win every tournament play MK or Snake. Top of the rankings by a substantial amount and I doubt there will be many drastic changes. Lucas is just more entertaining IMO. It's just like Melee was where you'd get bored of playing as Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth all the time and decide to get killed as Ness or Mewtwo for a while.

 

[Trozz]

A balance patch would be nice. And unlikely.

 

[zamz]

A balance patch would be nice. And unlikely.

Expecially when they don't want SSBB to be competitive in the first place. They'd probably enjoy the fact that half of the characters can't compete fairly.

 

[hoopspr226]

Just did a little bit of testing...

It seems like as long as Lucas DIs correctly, he will slide far enough away that the grabber cannot simply stand and regrab. That being said, it seems like Marth can still dash grab fast enough to regrab/chain grab lucas. However, I'm not even sure about that.

While testing Marth's dashing re-grab, there were times when Lucas escaped and I couldn't do a dashing regrab. However, I'm not sure if those were times when I simply messed up or if Lucas really couldn't have been regrabbed.

While testing other characters' dashing regrabs, it seemed like Levitas' hypothesis was correct and their initial dash regrab animation was too slow to regrab Lucas. It's possible that I wasn't timing it correctly, but I was never able to regrab Lucas when he DI'd away.

Can someone else test this to see if this "chaingrab" really is inescapable?

 

[Tyr_03]

Even if you could escape, characters like Marth and probably others still get a free smash attack on you.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Just did a little bit of testing...

It seems like as long as Lucas DIs correctly, he will slide far enough away that the grabber cannot simply stand and regrab. That being said, it seems like Marth can still dash grab fast enough to regrab/chain grab lucas. However, I'm not even sure about that.

While testing Marth's dashing re-grab, there were times when Lucas escaped and I couldn't do a dashing regrab. However, I'm not sure if those were times when I simply messed up or if Lucas really couldn't have been regrabbed.

While testing other characters' dashing regrabs, it seemed like Levitas' hypothesis was correct and their initial dash regrab animation was too slow to regrab Lucas. It's possible that I wasn't timing it correctly, but I was never able to regrab Lucas when he DI'd away.

Can someone else test this to see if this "chaingrab" really is inescapable?

What about for characters with really long grabs, such as Olimar or Link?

 

[Cort]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=8218#p8218

...

Cort, do other characters have enough time to initiate a dash grab before the stun wears off? Otherwise this "most of the cast" thing is competely wrong. It sort of works with marth w/o moving, but really only on Ness. Lucas can slide far enough away that a dash grab is required for the regrab, which leads to my question.

Also, @ whoever quoted me, I'm saying that grab shennanigans nonwithstanding, there are only a few characters that should be considered for tournament use. And Lucas is not one of them.

Yeah, most characters have to dash grab Lucas. But you can still do it across the stage, and/or do Marth's dsmash/fsmash, Snake's tilts, dash and up smash with Fox, etc for a free kill.

Just did a little bit of testing...

It seems like as long as Lucas DIs correctly, he will slide far enough away that the grabber cannot simply stand and regrab. That being said, it seems like Marth can still dash grab fast enough to regrab/chain grab lucas. However, I'm not even sure about that.

While testing Marth's dashing re-grab, there were times when Lucas escaped and I couldn't do a dashing regrab. However, I'm not sure if those were times when I simply messed up or if Lucas really couldn't have been regrabbed.

While testing other characters' dashing regrabs, it seemed like Levitas' hypothesis was correct and their initial dash regrab animation was too slow to regrab Lucas. It's possible that I wasn't timing it correctly, but I was never able to regrab Lucas when he DI'd away.

Can someone else test this to see if this "chaingrab" really is inescapable?

Thanks for testing, but this is inescapable across the stage as long as you have good timing and reaction time.

Even if you could escape, characters like Marth and probably others still get a free smash attack on you.

Yep.

 

[Deeja]

I don't like this thread

 

[TechnoMonster]

I just don't think this is correct. Bardull was doing this to me and I escaped a few times, and Bardull isn't one to **** it up.

If you're getting chained across the stage with dash regrabs, just hold A, I guarantee you will break out with a jab combo but you might have to eat a smash.

Either way still not broken, but thanks for updating us on stuff we already know.

 

[MASTER719]

This sucks d¡ck

 

[IvanEva]

This has got me thinking (in an attempt to help out my main character): perhaps all of these 'broken' techniques will encourage tournament goers and organizers to re-evaluate the importance of stages, especially the more "unique" (i.e intrusive) ones. If my Lucas can be chain grabbed by Marth but Marth has to worry about those F-Zero cars rushing in and killing us both, he'll be hesitant to try anything near the bottom. This might just be clutching at straws but I believe that equalizers can come in many different forms.

 

[hoopspr226]

What I am most curious about is if all/many characters can really do this to Lucas. It would automatically make Lucas bottom tier if all/most characters could chaingrab him across the stage.

I respect Cort's opinion but I'm skeptical until a few people can confirm the same thing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

o_o

This...is not good. Is Ike capable of pulling this off?

Also, IvanEva has a point on the importance of counterpicking stages that discourage chaingrabbing rampages. (Halberd comes to mind for some reason... @_@)

 

[Cort]

I just don't think this is correct. Bardull was doing this to me and I escaped a few times, and Bardull isn't one to **** it up.

If you're getting chained across the stage with dash regrabs, just hold A, I guarantee you will break out with a jab combo but you might have to eat a smash.

Either way still not broken, but thanks for updating us on stuff we already know.

Bardull isn't good at timing it then.

This has got me thinking (in an attempt to help out my main character): perhaps all of these 'broken' techniques will encourage tournament goers and organizers to re-evaluate the importance of stages, especially the more "unique" (i.e intrusive) ones. If my Lucas can be chain grabbed by Marth but Marth has to worry about those F-Zero cars rushing in and killing us both, he'll be hesitant to try anything near the bottom. This might just be clutching at straws but I believe that equalizers can come in many different forms.

Yeah, broken techniques should encourage broken stages so you can rely on luck and random factors and extreme stage hazards to win.

What I am most curious about is if all/many characters can really do this to Lucas. It would automatically make Lucas bottom tier if all/most characters could chaingrab him across the stage.

I respect Cort's opinion but I'm skeptical until a few people can confirm the same thing.

Cool.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

is there a video of this? i dont doubt it, i just want to see it

 

[Inui]

It should be banned.

 

[TestRider]

It should be banned.

And how do you suggest such a ban could be enforced? This is the main problem with this thing, everyone will agree that Brawl would be a better competitive game without this chain-grab of doom, but there is no way to enforce the ban in tournament play.

Banning stages is easy; if the tournament rules state that Mushroomy Kingdom is banned for singles, then no player has the right to pick that stage. If anyone insists on picking banned stages, they simply get DQed; end of the story. How, however, would tournament organizers go about banning something like this chain-grab?

First, it cannot be proven that a player actually did this unless he is actually caught in the act, and even then we would have to put complete faith in the person who does the ruling, which, in competitive play, is something you try to avoid as much as possible. So not only is it very hard to actually catch people doing this, but it also makes room for unfair ruling from dishonest "referees". This problem could be solved if the replay saving option worked properly, but most matches last for too long anyway, and a smart player would simply delay the game past the three minutes mark to avoid having his match recorded.

Even if we managed somehow to enforce a rule stipulating that it is illegal to grab Lucas/Ness again after they break out of a grab, people would still be getting several grab hits and a free smash every time they manage to grab Ness or Lucas, making these two bottom of bottom tier. There's also the fact that someone could accidentally grab a second time, and get disqualified because of a small mistake.

This is the kind of design and testing oversight that ruins games, and such a small thing has just made two characters completely unplayable. If more of this **** pops out and Nintendo refuses to patch the game, Brawl will not succeed as a competitive fighter.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Is it even possible for Nintendo to patch the game?

 

[Cort]

Why would Nintendo ever be innovative enough to patch the game?

Look at why-try err lagfi err wifi