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Colorado Smash Revival. Summit #1 [10/29 - Game Shack]

Sapphire Dragon

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#4 could be iffy for OOSers. Maybe have it something like they should pay back half of what they got from the fund if they're a first time OOSer and then full after that? Or it could be more gradual, and be something like first timers=25%, second timers 75%, any time afterwards 100%? And have any OOSer labeled a first time OOSer from this point on no matter whether or not they came here in the past? It just seems like having them pay it all back might be a turn off in some cases, especially if they were really needing those funds for something else. The rest sounds great. :D
 

Bees!

Smash Ace
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Good idea Ran! Getting me excited about your revival of our scene. Maybe everyone else here will get excited about the game like its 09 again(at least in Colorado)
 

Bees!

Smash Ace
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Aug 1, 2009
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707
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Also I need to change my address on the Smash Map. I no longer live at Pueblo West.
My new address is
7965 Cyprus Rd
Colorado Springs, CO
80908
 

-Ran

Smash Master
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I'm still thinking about how to implement the War Chest properly. I'm discussing it with my nonSmash friends to make sure it's the best possible solution. In other news, I'm going to be banning Meta Knight at almost every event I run. If people want experience vs MK, just ask me to play him in friendlies.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5167/unledjpf.png
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3089/week29.png

Consider this 'Ultimate Brawl' DLC release, free of charge to the public. The Metagame reset button has just been pressed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfj0sRiEqx4
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
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drowning in pixels
You can add me to the list of players.
Boulder.
Melee and Brawl.

If MK is going to be banned at all your tourneys, you should probably add something to the Brawl Rules section of the OP. Like replacing #5 in the General Gameplay Rules section with something along the lines of "Meta Knight is banned" and removing all the Meta Knight specific rules.

And the War Chest idea certainly sounds interesting.
 

Bees!

Smash Ace
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Messages
707
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Colorado
experience vs MK, just ask me to play him in friendlies.
Or any of these people who know how to play MK or used him to learn how to play against him
Level Zero
Fishbait
Steam
DTL
Bees!
Between all of these people + Ran, there you go.

I learned MK based off of META KNIGHT DA BESS!
 

FerrishTheFish

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May 22, 2011
Messages
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Hyrule Honeymoon
I think the War Chest idea is a good idea. I agree with SapphireDragon that #4 would definitely be a turn-off as on OoS-er. I think the idea of a side-pot would work better. I've played chess professionally since high school, and typically at tourneys prize money is distributed not only by overall placement, but also by class placement. So, for example, as a B-class (read: OoS) player, if I don't place well overall but I place better than all the other B-class players, I could stand to win 50% of the 4th-place prize or something. If I place well enough overall to win money, the B-class prize money is distributed to the next B-class runner-up. If there is no B-class runner-up, I guess we get to keep the money and donate it to the War Fund.

Until we really get a Smash scene here, I think we really ought to rely on CO players to take care of the venue fees. Then we could have OoS-ers pay the same amount as in-staters, take off a dollar for the War Fund, but then have the top-placing OoS-er win the lump sum of all remaining OoS entry money. Then, when we get a lot of OoS-ers, we could reduce the side-pot to 50% of all OoS entry fees minus the dollar fee. We're still making profit, and the first OoS-er is guaranteed to get his entry fee back (minus a buck) no matter how poorly he does. Not a bad deal for either side.

I think we should scrap (or at least seriously reevaluate) the points system thing for giving money to CO players for OoS tourneys. Honestly, Smash is just not profitable enough and travel is very expensive: Zim and I drive back and forth between AZ and CO pretty frequently, and we spend $250 just on gas each way. I don't think it's fair to give money to just one person and I don't think it's realistic to distribute the money among many players and expect it to actually help all that much, and anything we give just reduces the amount we can use on our scene here.

Personally, I think we should just provide anyone who plans to go OoS a T-shirt or something advertising our scene here, specifically the fact that we offer side-pots/stipends/whatever to OoS players who attend our tournaments. Something like: WANNA GET PAID TO PLAY OOS? ASK ME!
 

-Ran

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I'm going to be putting a ton of thought into the War Chest and how it shall function. It'll probably be completely redone, since I plan on it being one of my major thinking topics when I'm driving to Denver. I've had a handful of tournament organizers ask me to keep them up to date on the progress of it. This could result in something very nice for the scene, if I can hammer out all the details.
 

-Ran

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It's a fund composed of an extra dollar venue fee for every event to further the scene either by providing gas stipends to players that travel to us, pot bonuses for larger events, or to provide some assistance for our players to go out of state. The aid/stipends would probably be $25 or so for most, which would help facilitate traveling to other areas.
 

MegaRobMan

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You guys need to decide when your next tournament is so I can get it off work already :?

I need to get Link matches against Arizen so hard I dont' know how to Link. Insomnia ftw
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
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I'm against the banning of MK.

It's kinda cool, and I'll play regardless, but looking at it objectively you're essentially squashing the little competitive potential we had.

In my opinion, Colorado was always on the verge of being pretty solid at this game; we just suffered from spectacularly poor activity. Cutthroat, hilariously our "peak", wasn't even monthly. We planned to start some sort of homegrown movement, but after dropping CCC, we slowly lost all initiative with people getting into school, work, and just other fighters. Brawl isn't that great of a game, and it gets dumb when people really start fighting for that pot money, but Colorado never had that kind of an MK problem. Our #1 on the PR was a Game & Watch for like, two and a half years. Near the end we even had a nice collection of strong MKs in Dylan, Fishbait, and Zero, but it was never overwhelming, it was never impossible. No one planked, no one scrooged. Colorado never saw the truly impossible MK.

That's why I think it's odd for us to be the national example.

This is all from the viewpoint of a midlevel player though. I might not be seeing the picture Tim and Dylan are seeing in Grand Finals, and likewise I wasn't a new player dropping $50 at a Cutthroat event to lose to Zero and Steam. Maybe this ban will surge activity - it's at least noob friendly, and it might even renew interest in our older players, including myself.

But with a ban like this, it's a lie to say it's in Colorado's competitive interest. It's in interest of attendance and in interest of fun - which is valid, but if this game lives till Genesis 3, Colorado would have been playing an entirely different game.

It's beyond wonderful that you're here, Ran. I appreciate what your doing more than I can say, and like I said, I'll participate in and respect your events regardless of how you go about them. Smash is Smash. But personally, I'd like to play the game the world is playing, and not an easy-mode. I'd like to play Brawl.

I have one specific request though! Can at least the first event be MK-friendly? I'd like at least a final chance against Dylan, Fish, Zero, and Steam.
 

-Ran

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For the vast majority of players, the state level is all that they are ever going to witness when it comes to Smash. This isn't about being a national example, it's about doing what [as a tournament organizer] I feel is necessary for obtaining an active and healthy scene. Meta Knight is an overwhelming force in the metagame that has reached beyond saturation and over-centralization. Why should I put all this effort into rekindling interest for a game, if I'm going to allow the most troubling aspect of it to exist? There's already talk about a Kansas city national for an MK banned tournament, Dallas has MK banned [used to be MK central in Texas], and we're on the cusp of having another board level poll.

I am not pandering to a character that is responsible for the vast majority of individuals winning money in some capacity. You had your chance to beat MK; we all did. I cannot help but notice the trend of players that were low/mid/high level all picking up Meta Knight as of late in a desperate attempt to become better at their skill plateau. They all saw growth in ability to win compared to their peers, but are still just as bad at the game as they were before. It is getting to the point where people want to ban more stages to reduce the effectiveness of MK, despite how helpful they are to other characters [aside from against pocket MKs.]

I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I've gone to everything short of national level tournaments. I talk routinely with Utd Zac, Chibo, Yink, Xyro and other major TO's. I cannot in good faith believe that the national metagame will revolve around Meta Knight for much longer. If you want your last chance against their Meta Knights, money match them. If you need practice for OOS against MK, play against mine. It's just as good, if not better than my Snake pending the match up.
 

Rizen

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Colorado
MK's seriously broken. I don't have a strong opinion on banning him but am leaning towards banning being good.
You guys need to decide when your next tournament is so I can get it off work already :?

I need to get Link matches against Arizen so hard I dont' know how to Link. Insomnia ftw
Will do ;). Sorry you have insomnia, it sucks:urg:.


I need to sharpen my offline edge; it's been years since I've played people:(.
 

-Ran

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You guys need to decide when your next tournament is so I can get it off work already :?

I need to get Link matches against Arizen so hard I dont' know how to Link. Insomnia ftw
I'm still figuring out when it is. I need to check out the venue, get a job, and actually move to Colorado on the 1st.
 

deepseadiva

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This isn't about being a national example, it's about doing what [as a tournament organizer] I feel is necessary for obtaining an active and healthy scene.
Of course, but is Meta Knight the reason the Colorado scene is dead? I can't speak for the new people, but from what I could see we're inactive because we never formed any kind of consistent events. We just randomly announced tournaments in Colorado Springs and in Morrison and no one outside the thread really knew.

Banned or not, I think your events are gonna be big regardless. An MK ban doesn't seem necessary at all.

Meta Knight is an overwhelming force in the metagame that has reached beyond saturation and over-centralization. Why should I put all this effort into rekindling interest for a game, if I'm going to allow the most troubling aspect of it to exist?
I might be alone in my opinion, Bees and others might disagree, but MK has always been a theoretical problem for us. Our PR barely had three. At the last tournament we held, they were all in attendance and they all placed below a ROB. Banning MK is not solving any problem Colorado has.



If anything I'm just devastated at the thought of crushing our competitive potential. Dylan was going places. Steam was getting really good. Zero... really needs MK, lol. Fishbait is setting up to be a realistic national threat.

We are on the cusp of having an actually legitimate scene, with legitimate talent. To kill that, and at best become "that state that's good, but sucks against MK" - as a person who takes this game seriously, as someone who wants to improve and learn on a scope larger than the Saturday tournaments at my local library, an MK ban is patronizing.

If you want your last chance against their Meta Knights, money match them.
Incomparable. An MK trained to work in a tournament environment, carved after dozens of tournament matches, isn't the same as LucarioLover93's pocket Shuttle Loop factory. Our MKs will always be decent, I don't mean to exaggerate, but we lose so much valuable time against MK if we delegate him to a side-event, when in reality he's the entire game.

Ran, these are your events and I could ****ride you for saving our scene till you start coming out my nose, but I really think one MK-friendly event is entirely reasonable, if not completely logical. I'm just asking you to see our scene first hand before making such a final decision.
 

Sapphire Dragon

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Ran, maybe CO could set up something like this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307742

http://www.alabamasmashleague.com

Okay you kids. I'm gonna have a table set-up at this taking registration (in between me winning tournament matches) for the Alabama Smash League. We're looking to make tournaments in AL accessible to every one, and I mean everyone. Check the thread and website and GIVE US YOUR FEEDBACK! You can ask any questions there, or look me up at the tournament.

The basic strategy is $25 gets you a membership. For $25 you get FREE venue fee and FREE Brawl Singles for FIVE tournaments. Payouts are guaranteed up to the top 4 places. You get that no matter what, but if you register BEFORE the first tournament, then you also get free pizza and a drink at each event. Otherwise, though lunch will be at the venue, you'll have to pay.

We're recording and uploading every match that is played at these tournaments. We're also keeping ELO rankings of every member of the league. Next year, we're trying to keep the price the same and instead run 7-8 tournaments in a season, SO SUPPORT THIS!

Unfortunately, we've got no reasonable way to give the same benefits to Melee, 64, or Brawl Doubles, though those events will still be present ($10 entry, $20 a team, 70-20-10 split. May or may not have 64). However, for Melee, we're working to provide the same kind of ELO ranking and representation on our website (recording matches maybe in the future, it's kind of a ***** compared to Brawl).

So yeah, I'm gonna hit every ATL South thread later today. GIVE US YOUR FEEDBACK!
 

MegaRobMan

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Omaha, NE
MK's seriously broken. I don't have a strong opinion on banning him but am leaning towards banning being good.
Other than double MK in dubs, who needs to see 4 MK's on screen at once? I have a problem with banning MK, it's just going to make the game even gayer, most people are just going to pick up D3/Falco because they are easy and can **** most the cast with no real bad matchups anymore. Infinite's, pseudo infinite (ala pika on spacies) and 0-death spikes are more broken than MK. Good players will probably flock to Diddy and Wario, super nerdy technical players IC's, but D3 will become the overplayed Akuma character without MK.

I don't even play MK, but I would against a D3, and only D3. Marth/Wolf/Luigi/Link are all really great characters to use, but they get shut down hard by D3, especially given infinite's are legal.
 
M

MysteryTigerTeen

Guest
Hey guys, thought i should post here since I am moving here in about a year. Wow Ran i'm really impressed, you're putting a lot of work in ^_^'

I hope this scene is alive when i come there
 

-Ran

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Meno, I'm serious when I say that Meta Knight isn't going to be along for much more. I'm aware of two other states [Louisiana+Texas] that are on the cusp of doing the same thing. At the moment AZ's poll is at 75% in favor of a ban out of 200 votes. There are so many conversations that are going on right now that pertain to Meta Knight that in my mind, he won't be tournament legal by the end of the year. I cannot fathom that Meta Knight will remained unbanned in the United States. Every argument that has been given for him to remain has been dismantled thoroughly. Look at the old Anti-ban arguments from the last vote and none of it holds water.

I do not see the worth in applying the effort that I am to get this scene's life rekindled being put back into supporting the notion that Meta Knight belongs in the Smash scene as a whole. You're welcomed to run MK allowed tournaments, but I won't be. I know you feel that Colorado hadn't sunk to the depths of other scenes with Meta Knight usage, but that's because of the state of decay the scene has fallen into. Had you more tournaments, you'd find your PR and results filled with converts. Keep in mind, your best player was using Meta Knight. It's just without the activity and the drive to win money, people didn't have the reason. They stuck with their main characters, etc. This year, I've witnessed ten players in the La scene switch to using MK in some capacity.

Other than double MK in dubs, who needs to see 4 MK's on screen at once? I have a problem with banning MK, it's just going to make the game even gayer, most people are just going to pick up D3/Falco because they are easy and can **** most the cast with no real bad matchups anymore. Infinite's, pseudo infinite (ala pika on spacies) and 0-death spikes are more broken than MK. Good players will probably flock to Diddy and Wario, super nerdy technical players IC's, but D3 will become the overplayed Akuma character without MK.
D3 isn't an 'Akuma' level character. He has substantial negative match ups, as do all of the chain grabbing characters, and most of his heavily favored ones aren't against tournament viable characters due to their match ups against other individuals.

D3
-3 : Ice Climbers
-2: Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, Zero Suit.
-1: Diddy, Fox, Pit, Shiek/Zelda
0: G&W, Toon Link, Kirby, Peach, and Shiek.

Ice Climbers:
-1: Snake, Diddy, Zss, Toon Link, Peach, and Yoshi.
0: Wario, Marth, Pikachu, Lucario, and Rob.

Falco:

-3: Pikachu
-2: Ice Climbers
0: Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth, G&W, Lucario, Kirby, Fox, Pit, Shiek/Zelda.

The common theme with each of these characters is how greatly they are effected on counterpick stages, and how relatively easily they are to counter with character selection. Traditionally, those three characters perform strongly on linear based stages such as FD and Smashville. They all have chinks in their armor with various stages, compared to Meta Knight that is simply dominant on every stage and every match up.

With the removal of MK, you will see a rise in characters, but the dynamics of their match ups will keep them in check. Every character has weaknesses that can be exploited as long as their name isn't Meta Knight, which then becomes an issue of out playing your opponent significantly.

Current, the ban movement is gaining significant strength. The community has -always- wanted it according to the polls. I'm in current talks with regions with tournament organizers that I have befriended about creating a state alliance to ban Meta Knight. It is very possible that this will evolve into Colorado + Texas + Louisiana. Then you have Kansas which is planning on running a national level MK banned tournament. The tides of the meta-game are changing.
 

MegaRobMan

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Most importantly, you should know that I just post based on characters I play. D3 owns Wolf, Marth, Link and when infinite's are legal (again), Luigi :/ I ****ing hate birds in the smash series. Melee falco too, ugh.

Nextly, however, I mentioned how easy D3/Falco are to play at a midrange level, people will flock to them. I would argue that the reason D3's metagame looks the way it does is because of the existence of MK, it's just so easy to beat him with MK to the point that even the best D3's don't really play D3 or have quit or switched him to a pocket character for matchups, unless they want to get ***** by a "pocket" MK some Ganon "main" has for bad matchups. D3 hasn't been given a chance to develop, imo, he's one of the few characters that will move up drastically and his match up chart will change, aside from IC's, Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, and Zamus, all of his -1's will be neutral, even Diddy imo, and some of those even matchups +1's, but I'm done with theorycraping.

I'm neutral on the ban, but I find infinite's/grab release/instant death stuff to be way more negative than a character that's highly beatable with half of the characters.

I'm just entertained by the concept of banning a character more than having an actual opinion, honestly, but I'd attend an MK banned/colorado tournament
 

Sapphire Dragon

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Let go of the scars that define you.
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Meno, I'm serious when I say that Meta Knight isn't going to be along for much more. I'm aware of two other states [Louisiana+Texas] that are on the cusp of doing the same thing. At the moment AZ's poll is at 75% in favor of a ban out of 200 votes. There are so many conversations that are going on right now that pertain to Meta Knight that in my mind, he won't be tournament legal by the end of the year. I cannot fathom that Meta Knight will remained unbanned in the United States. Every argument that has been given for him to remain has been dismantled thoroughly. Look at the old Anti-ban arguments from the last vote and none of it holds water.

I do not see the worth in applying the effort that I am to get this scene's life rekindled being put back into supporting the notion that Meta Knight belongs in the Smash scene as a whole. You're welcomed to run MK allowed tournaments, but I won't be. I know you feel that Colorado hadn't sunk to the depths of other scenes with Meta Knight usage, but that's because of the state of decay the scene has fallen into. Had you more tournaments, you'd find your PR and results filled with converts. Keep in mind, your best player was using Meta Knight. It's just without the activity and the drive to win money, people didn't have the reason. They stuck with their main characters, etc. This year, I've witnessed ten players in the La scene switch to using MK in some capacity.



D3 isn't an 'Akuma' level character. He has substantial negative match ups, as do all of the chain grabbing characters, and most of his heavily favored ones aren't against tournament viable characters due to their match ups against other individuals.

D3
-3 : Ice Climbers
-2: Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, Zero Suit.
-1: Diddy, Fox, Pit, Shiek/Zelda
0: G&W, Toon Link, Kirby, Peach, and Shiek.

Ice Climbers:
-1: Snake, Diddy, Zss, Toon Link, Peach, and Yoshi.
0: Wario, Marth, Pikachu, Lucario, and Rob.

Falco:

-3: Pikachu
-2: Ice Climbers
0: Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth, G&W, Lucario, Kirby, Fox, Pit, Shiek/Zelda.

The common theme with each of these characters is how greatly they are effected on counterpick stages, and how relatively easily they are to counter with character selection. Traditionally, those three characters perform strongly on linear based stages such as FD and Smashville. They all have chinks in their armor with various stages, compared to Meta Knight that is simply dominant on every stage and every match up.

With the removal of MK, you will see a rise in characters, but the dynamics of their match ups will keep them in check. Every character has weaknesses that can be exploited as long as their name isn't Meta Knight, which then becomes an issue of out playing your opponent significantly.

Current, the ban movement is gaining significant strength. The community has -always- wanted it according to the polls. I'm in current talks with regions with tournament organizers that I have befriended about creating a state alliance to ban Meta Knight. It is very possible that this will evolve into Colorado + Texas + Louisiana. Then you have Kansas which is planning on running a national level MK banned tournament. The tides of the meta-game are changing.
The Raninator strikes again.

And yeah, Zaj, it was bound to happen. Ran introducing this is going to spark that discussion, even though it's been discussed infinitely before. But the facts just don't lie.
 

ShermantheTank

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
429
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Omaha, NE
Ran-where did your negative combo video link go, the mega man 3 password remix was awesome and I can't find it anywhere but on that "humility" video
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,932
Location
Aurora, Colorado
If the top 7 or 8 were banned on a national level, i'd pick up Brawl again. Trufax.

If anyone's interested in SSBM, hit me up here or on FB. Anthony Phalen if you don't have it.

Anduhh, if I ever stop being a bum/start caring again, I can take care of MK tournaments in order to keep Colorado relevant on the national level. :D
 
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