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Character Competitive Impressions

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Kofu

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The only gud defensive game in Smash 4 is only Villager lol..... I think?

How exactly slow Snake was in Brawl?
Villager's defensive game isn't even that good, at least partially because his grab is so terrible that he can't just shield and grab stuff like a lot of other characters can. Lloid Rocket combined with slingshots is good and you can add in Timber to the mix to make it a bit better, but fast characters have no problems getting around those three things.

Timber Counter might make a difference, though. I haven't played around with it enough to say.

Also on the topic of Snake his long dash attack and DACUS helped his mobility out considerably.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Mega man, villager, DH, and pac-man have the best defensive games in this smash imo. Villager and DH are the closest to being pure defensive though.

And snake was Sllloooowww. He had terrible air speed, laggy aerials, poor jump height. It was really bad. But factor in frame 1 grenades that deal 13% and the ability to create a mine feild, it really didn't matter that his mobility was trash. He wasn't approaching anyways.
Unless he was getting timed out.
 

HeroMystic

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Tell that to snake in brawl. If you have a strong enough defensive game to make up for it, you can still be top tier (something that characters like Luigi and Robin lack)
I wouldn't call Snake slow though.

That said, Brawl was a game where proper spacing dominated everything, the only outlier in this case being ICs. Snake was excellent at zoning.
 

spiderfreak1011

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Well, it's more of a quirk about me. Most Bairs kills, but Shulk's range for it is insane... If he can land it, it's going to hurt.

The Back Slash thing I found out after a Shulk used Back Slash instead of Air Slash to recover which lead me getting meteored, but Falco's second jump and Fire Bird allowed me to get back on stage. Ike's Aether, on the other hand was weird. I think the guy recovered, grabbed the ledge, and the second hit registered leading me to get meteored.

Anyway, Shulk's Uair is a good anti-air tool due because it's fairly fast and because of its vertical range. Like most Uairs, he can juggle with it at lower percents and because of its range. I don't really know what Ftilt is used for aside from spacing and killing at higher percents. Same thing with Dtilt except I don't know when it kills.

Down Smash is a good punish tool because it lasts so long, but it gets easily punished too because of its start up and end lag. Up and Side Smash seem like read and punish moves. Hmm, all his Smashes are good for roll, spot-dodge, and maybe air dodge punishes.

Uair, Bair, and Dair are all commit moves as far as I know and Shulks might not use them unless they're going for the kill.

Vision is weird in a sense you can nick it and it'll send Shulk somewhere else or if it hits, it'll do fair damage or kill. Air Slash is like ZSS's Boost Kick.

Most Shulks I've fought start with Buster or Jump, but I've heard good that Speed is a good option as well. A Shulk will either switch to Jump or Smash for kills depending on if they want an easier time killing in the air and off-stage or if they want to kill on-stage and reliably.

I don't know, I think Shulk's a versatile character, but like pretty much half or two thirds of the cast, there aren't a lot of Shulk players that I know of.
I figured i could add a little input on Shulk given i main him. Typically, Speed and Buster are the artes a Shulk player will start off with in the beginning of a fight, i typically favor Speed and follow up into Buster normally, as Pivot Grabs and Short Hop N-Air are easy enough approach options to use to rack up damage from 0-40% usually, then i follow up into Buster and rack up the damage from there.

One of the main reasons that Shulk is probably high mid tier at best/low mid tier at worst is that despite Shulk's versatility, he requires alot of commitment and more importantly, alot of his moves are pretty laggy and punishable, unless you manage to space them out correctly, and even then, he's limited at times due to this. The only Aerials i tend to approach with are N-Air and F-Air, and N-Airs his only real safe aerial in a sense due to its low landing lag when not worrying too heavily on spacing. As you mention, his off stage game is pretty good, but hard to pull off if the Opponent knows how to dodge and avoid it.

His Counter is really powerful, but consider how Shulk moves while performing it and how its not neccessarily instant (the only instant counter that isn't a custom is his Forward variation, and that only works on the ground), it's decently hard to land if you aren't countering an attack on the ground. Forward vision helps in hitting an attacker coming in from the air if they don't immediately bounce off after hitting you, but that's about as good as his Counter gets with non grounded attacks, its about 50/50 if you'll counter in the air depending on spacing.

Back Slash isn't that good of a move, honestly, the only times i land it are if i use the initial jump of the attack to jump over a projectile and hit my attacker, or if i read them and land them. Typically, most of my Back Slashes end up hitting the back of the opponent, and that's basically from a read that i've found alot of people easily fall for. Basically, i'll grab an opponent, do a back throw, then Jump into the direction opposite from where i threw said opponent. Most of the time, if the Opponent doesn't hit the ground and tech, they'll jump back in the same direction towards me. If i read this, i can easily just reverse Shulk's momentum with Back Slash and land a hit on their back. I don't think it can be air dodged through it, as unlike most of Shulk's aerials, Back Slash's hitbox animation is long lasting, basically staying out in your entire duration in the air until you hit ground or die.

As for Air Slash, i haven't been able to hit with it often, the only time i can think to use it is if i perfect Shield and use it as a punish like an OOS option (except i let go of my shield rather than use it while holding shield button). It has surprisngly good KO power vertically, so im trying to use it more often.

Out of the MU's of the tops that i've played with Shulk, the one that i think he has the easiest time with (at least, compared to all of the tops) is probably Sheik, maybe Rosalina (havent played that MU enough to know if its easier than Sheik). Yes, Sheik can combo him like she can most of the cast, but with Monado Speed, Shulk can match her speed movement and improve his neutral game so that he has an easier time dealing with her. Not to mention, Monado Jump is the perfect tool for getting out of her edge guard traps most of the time, and Buster works really well on her. Yes, Sheik obviously still has the advantage, but Shulk has good tools to combat her, especially considering how he stands in the roster with his laggy attacks and commitment.

As for DIddy...You can probably imagine how he fares in that match up. :\
 
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mimgrim

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Villager's defensive game isn't even that good, at least partially because his grab is so terrible that he can't just shield and grab stuff like a lot of other characters can. Lloid Rocket combined with slingshots is good and you can add in Timber to the mix to make it a bit better, but fast characters have no problems getting around those three things.

Timber Counter might make a difference, though. I haven't played around with it enough to say.
Wobbuffet Tree, specifically the sapling part of it, actually really changes how he handles fast characters. This is because f\fast characters will either be forced to wait for it to end while dealing your camping or jump over it to approach which makes it better for you to use you more laggy tools. The space a Wynaut Sapling controls is very helpful in his MU against the more mobile characters.
 

madworlder

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I actually really like Charizard for doubles. I'm hardly an expert on the format, but Flare Blitz can be harder to react to, and Charizard can take better advantage of his tools when he's not under so much pressure to approach.
Your teammate also has to react to Flare Blitz, which devalues it as a tool for recovery. Flamethrower and Rock Smash are slow and inconvenient to use in doubles, and he's a huge target for two characters. There's always someone waiting to punish him. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
 

Greward

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I agree with Shaya. Falcon is a monster in this game and somehow he's not getting the attention he should. Maybe that's because he isn't popular among top players, but I think in some time he will start dominating way more.
His bad and gimpable recovery isn't all that bad, having the chance to mix it up with side B, and that's the only weakness he has (diddy also has a bad recovery actually). On the other hand we have pretty much all you would want in a character. Godlike jab and dash grab give him a very good neutral game combined with his speed, his punishes are so strong because of the very high damage he deals and he has an easy time getting uair strings and supreme kill potential, combined with his heavyness and easy access to rage effect.
As far as matchups I'd say he loses against Sheik and maybe Pikachu or ZSS. I don't think he has a bad matchup against diddy.
I don't see this character being worse than top5 at all.
Seeing the usage of character graphs I've seen, I think other people have realized he's strong as **** though. I used to think he would get worse as time goes on and people get better in the game, I'm not that sure of it as of now. His frame data looks superb.
 

YAYCONFORMITY

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Your teammate also has to react to Flare Blitz, which devalues it as a tool for recovery. Flamethrower and Rock Smash are slow and inconvenient to use in doubles, and he's a huge target for two characters. There's always someone waiting to punish him. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
Your teemmate has to react to Flare Blitz, but you shouldn't be using when he's in your path, and he should be more in sync with you. It does have less value as a recovery. I don't play doubles too much, but I find on balance it helps cover his weaknesses.
 

mimgrim

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Charizard is good in doubles for the same reason the other fatties, or just heavyweights in general really, are good in doubles. They can tanks stocks like it isn't anyone's business. They are optimally played as a support role in doubles rather then a lead role due to this.
 

Kofu

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Wobbuffet Tree, specifically the sapling part of it, actually really changes how he handles fast characters. This is because f\fast characters will either be forced to wait for it to end while dealing your camping or jump over it to approach which makes it better for you to use you more laggy tools. The space a Wynaut Sapling controls is very helpful in his MU against the more mobile characters.
That's kind of what I figured. The sapling seems much more potent than the tree in general, although the fact that the axe strike sends out the counter shockwave is really funny.

In my experience Villager has a decent neutral game but where he really shines is in advantage. His ranged tools give him lots of ways to pester the opponent and make it difficult for them to get back to neutral.
 

madworlder

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so if not charizard who is the worst character in doubles? I don't believe it's Mac, Swordfighter seems plausible? I don't know enough about that character
 

Nobie

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Falcon's recovery is a real weakness, but at least it's not the festering wound it was when edgehogging existed.
 

FlynnCL

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Charizard would've been so much better if they kept his Brawl back-air and down-tilt.
 

Z'zgashi

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Well I mean, the Smash series as a whole is all about freedom in your movement options as opposed to other fighting games, so its no surprise that in a game almost solely focused around mobility and being able to move fluidly that the faster characters are generally better.
 

Kofu

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Mega Man maybe? I feel like mid range spacers don't do well in doubles.
The only things that Mega Man can't freely do in doubles that he can do normally are throw out Metal Blades and Crash Bombers. The first is a little frustrating but not terrible (especially not with a teammate to help) and the second is but a minor inconvenience at best.

You know what? Summon @ Locke 06 Locke 06 because he plays a lot of doubles with Mega Man.
 

Yonder

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Well he does have the 2nd/3rd longest perfect pivot.
I don't like to consider Perfect Pivoting much until it is actively used in competitive play. Err...has it? If so, can anyone link me so matches using it well?

Sometimes people bring up Luigi's chaingrab to...never seen it used in a tourney once. Therefore, I don't consider it as much of a positive towards the character and more just "there"
 

Conda

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Sonic - despite lack of representation - still kind of 'breaks' the mechanics of Smash in a way. His ceiling may be much higher than any other character and wall out characters and players who aren't fast enough, physically, to react. He creates a sort of 'requirement' for what characters can actually feasibly go up against him. Many players may also find it difficult to react against him in a very real way. He's not only too fast, but is too good at getting rewards from any hit when approaching. "Cancer" is a word used to describe him, and I understand why.

Beating Sonic at high levels is about training your physical reaction time. What he can do is simple - overcoming tough Sonic players isn't like overcoming players of other characters, not by a long shot. When you face a good Sonic player, you have to hope your reaction time is fast enough. If not, you could play as smart and safe as you want - it won't be enough. You won't be able to defeat high-level Sonics based on 'intelligent'/'safe' play only.

You'll have to find a way to react to him, and how he can be played proactively and reactively at the same time. If you can't, then you're at a heavy disadvantage that has only one way of being overcome. I believe he's the only character in the game like this, which I see as a big deal - he deserves to be more popular than he is, as I think he has the highest chance of rising to the top 3 and being able to deal with any matchup, by pure virtue of overwhelming his opponents.

Arguably. I'm worried about him, but hey I'm a worrisome guy.
 
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Chuva

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About the mobility talk: while mobility definitely seems to be shaping the current meta-game so far, let us remember Rosalina and Ness are not exactly mobile. Hitbox parade and plethora of kill moves/setups can carry you far.
 

YAYCONFORMITY

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I feel that Mega Man's solid aerials and punishes will keep him competitive in doubles.
I feel like other characters do these things better.

The only things that Mega Man can't freely do in doubles that he can do normally are throw out Metal Blades and Crash Bombers. The first is a little frustrating but not terrible (especially not with a teammate to help) and the second is but a minor inconvenience at best.

You know what? Summon @ Locke 06 Locke 06 because he plays a lot of doubles with Mega Man.
I think Crash Bombs are (or should be) a bigger part of Mega Man's game than they usually are. And Metal blades are a big tool from him so limiting them is a pretty big deal. I also think Mega Man generally has difficulty with people getting in on him.

But, all of this was just my knee jerk reaction to the question. Not like I've done too much research.
 

Conda

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About the mobility talk: while mobility definitely seems to be shaping the current meta-game so far, let us remember Rosalina and Ness are not exactly mobile. Hitbox parade and plethora of kill moves/setups can carry you far.
I'd like to correct this:

They have more advantages/tools than other characters with similar speed/mobility levels. This makes them more potent alternatives to many of the other medium-mobility characters. It becomes a situation where "Both Z and X are solid and balanced, but X has toys and advantages that Z doesn't have. Why main Z if you could play X? "

Of course we know the answer to that, but player preference and personal skill level doesn't change that while the cast is more balanced than ever before, the ones who have a leg up balance-wise still have a clear leg up competitively, and we've seen this in action.
 
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Chuva

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I'd like to correct this:

They have more advantages/tools than other characters with similar speed/mobility levels. This makes them more potent alternatives to many of the other medium-mobility characters.
But that was my point...I'm just specifying some of such tools.
 

Conda

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But that was my point...I'm just specifying some of such tools.
Right, but the counter point you provided would, to some readers, give them the impression that other low-medium mobility characters may be as viable as Rosa/Ness/etc. But that's likely not the case for the reasons I provided. I was just adding some details to your point.
 

YAYCONFORMITY

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Sonic - despite lack of representation - still kind of 'breaks' the mechanics of Smash in a way. His ceiling may be much higher than any other character and wall out characters and players who aren't fast enough, physically, to react. He creates a sort of 'requirement' for what characters can actually feasibly go up against him. Many players may also find it difficult to react against him in a very real way. He's not only too fast, but is too good at getting rewards from any hit when approaching. "Cancer" is a word used to describe him, and I understand why.

Beating Sonic at high levels is about training your physical reaction time. What he can do is simple - overcoming tough Sonic players isn't like overcoming players of other characters, not by a long shot. When you face a good Sonic player, you have to hope your reaction time is fast enough. If not, you could play as smart and safe as you want - it won't be enough. You won't be able to defeat high-level Sonics based on 'intelligent'/'safe' play only.

You'll have to find a way to react to him, and how he can be played proactively and reactively at the same time. If you can't, then you're at a heavy disadvantage that has only one way of being overcome. I believe he's the only character in the game like this, which I see as a big deal - he deserves to be more popular than he is, as I think he has the highest chance of rising to the top 3 and being able to deal with any matchup, by pure virtue of overwhelming his opponents.

Arguably. I'm worried about him, but hey I'm a worrisome guy.
How does Sonic do when characters are more aggressive though? I think when dealing with rushdown characters, it could be a tendency to turtle up, which leaves you at the mercy of their mixups. However, going more offensive could work out better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqTf_CziPww

Towards the end of the second match, and throughout the third, you can see Nairo beginning to get more aggressive and throwing out a lot of quick safe aerials. Sonic has speed, but his attacks can be outprioritized by many characters. Still not an easy fight, but not too bad. I think characters like ZSS, Sheik, Mario, Yoshi, and maybe Luigi can make things difficult for Sonic with wall of pain like tactics.
 

Locke 06

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WHAT. You're interrupting my Shulk For Glory rampage.

Wait. What. I literally play Mega Man Charizard doubles with Spirst (we used to do Mega DH and it worked well, but Zard is amazing). Saying those 2 are the worst in doubles makes me giggle. If they are, I guess we're low tier heroes?

Here's some things I think make a good doubles character:
Can hold their own 1v1
Racks up damage/kills well (one of the two)
Strong Aerials for 2 person combos
Edge Guarding
Good Recovery
Good Grab

... Now that list may be missing some things, but that's pretty much how I feel.

Mega Man is awesome in doubles. Having kill power and survivability, he fills the Wario type niche; a low profile stock tank that kills. His edge guarding really shines, as well as his keep away game. 2 person edge guarding with Mega on the ledge is destruction. His BAir is death, and your partner can cover high recoveries. Also, if you gain control of the middle and separate your opponents, Mega can keep the opponent out while patiently waiting until the other opponent gets close enough for a 2 person combo. If your teammate is edge guarding, allowing him to stay in advantage without interference while being able to assist him is a huge plus.

As for punishing, 6 frame utilt that kills ~70-90% says hello. It is best doubles punisher in terms of speed, power, and end lag this game has to offer. His smashes have a lot of end lag, so having a teammate to cover you helps a lot.

UAir kills off the top when launched at FH height around 120%, FAir can lead to more wombo combos, and BAir is fast enough to catch opponents launched by your teammate and kill.

Mega Man can do everything he wants to in doubles once you take stage control. MB's/CB's work well to distract/help out your teammate when he's being pressured (MB's are piercing, which helps too). Lemons can be used to help alleviate end lag on your teammate's punishable attacks. With customs, Skull Barrier is a reflector, which can be oh so important.

Oh, and rush can save your teammate without hitting them.

Charizard is a monster doubles partner. Flamethrower alone is enough to make him a decent partner. His grab and punish ability makes him very good. Grab>Footstool>Flareblitz is a thing we're working on and sort of have down. There's a lot that makes Charizard a good partner.

Re Crash Bombs: No hitstun. If your opponent decides to ignore them when you shoot it at them, they can use that opportunity to get in; speedier characters make Crash Bomb a liability (which is why I advocate for Ice Slasher). Metal Blades, pellets, grab, and aerials are your main tools.
 

Conda

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How does Sonic do when characters are more aggressive though? I think when dealing with rushdown characters, it could be a tendency to turtle up, which leaves you at the mercy of their mixups. However, going more offensive could work out better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqTf_CziPww

Towards the end of the second match, and throughout the third, you can see Nairo beginning to get more aggressive and throwing out a lot of quick safe aerials. Sonic has speed, but his attacks can be outprioritized by many characters. Still not an easy fight, but not too bad. I think characters like ZSS, Sheik, Mario, Yoshi, and maybe Luigi can make things difficult for Sonic with wall of pain like tactics.
I've seen those matches a couple of times, as well as many other Sonic matches on the Big 3 channels/streams. There's a common understanding in my circle that a very consistently-apparent issue exists with played Sonics - no matter how much you know about Sonic and 'how' to defeat him, if you are not fast enough then it's hopeless.

I'm usually in the position of helping players improve, but Sonic is one of those characters that, at a high level, I feel its "either you have a fast enough reaction time, or you're screwed." There's a wealth of tips and tricks I can and do give for those looking to defeat Sonic, but there's a critically different feeling I have when I give tips for beating Sonic: I feel it's mostly useless. Either you have the dexterity/reaction-time required to beat him, or you don't.

I could teach players all about his weaknesses and how to read him and so forth, which I do. I've read up on him and got my head fully wrapped around him (I'm a knowledge/patience based player, not a dexterity/speed based one). However, some players, in my current opinion, don't have a chance until they improve their reaction time and change the kind of player they are (which isn't feasible). Players like me who focus on a different set of abilities and skills have a harder time applying them against Sonic than against other characters. He's polarizing in this way.


It feels like Sonic draws the line in the metagame for the viability of two things: 1) slower characters, and 2) methodical and mindgame-based players. The players I'm speaking of are ones who have slower reaction times and dexterity levels, but play characters that utilize a different set of skills. Usually in fighting games, those types of characters and players can do well. But I think Sonic may be making that class of character & player nonviable in his stead.
 
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TTTTTsd

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I think characters with fast start up times and reliable options that can beat Spindash are much better against Sonic than those who can't @ Conda Conda , like, for instance, Mario has fireballs that work most of the time, Dr. Mario can Doc Tornado on reaction PROVIDED he makes a read (pills work too sorta).

I think Sonic is kind of weird and annoying but if you pick a character that has fast buttons they can probably take it from there if you're good enough to hit them fast enough, I pretty much agree with you.
 

FullMoon

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I will say one thing though, playing doubles against Greninja and Villager allows you to see just how ridiculous Greninja would be if he could store the charge of his shurikens. Pocketed fully charged shurikens have crazy knockback and Villager can simply smack them into your face when you're vulnerable.

It's pretty awesome.
 

Conda

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I think characters with fast start up times and reliable options that can beat Spindash are much better against Sonic than those who can't @ Conda Conda , like, for instance, Mario has fireballs that work most of the time, Dr. Mario can Doc Tornado on reaction PROVIDED he makes a read (pills work too sorta).

I think Sonic is kind of weird and annoying but if you pick a character that has fast buttons they can probably take it from there if you're good enough to hit them fast enough, I pretty much agree with you.
Yup, I'm aware of that. I think we have to understand that the topic of 'matchups vs Sonic' isn't solely about spindash, and he has way more going on that he gets massive reward and from, most being very safe. He's very polarizing, but his speed level makes this an issue. He can be very polarizing (more than most_ for most characters who don't have an easy way to deal with his safe, fast, and rewarding approached.

However, he is also polarizing because I feel some players won't be fast enough - those who aren't dexterity/speed players, but players with a different skillset that works well in fighting games. Sonic makes these alternative non-speed-based skillsets not enough to compete, as Sonic demands all players have the fast physical reaction times that dexterity/speed players have. At that point it's less about character viability and more about what player skillsets are viable.
 
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TriTails

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Well he does have the 2nd/3rd longest perfect pivot.
He has the 2nd longest PP tied with Little Mac, losing only to Falcon.

That said, his ground mobility is pretty decent, slightly slower than Mario while tied with Wario and Ike(?). It's his aerial mobility that holds him back. Unless there is a aerial mobility-booster tech combo wombo to make him at least as mobile as Rosalina or Ness, then he is not going to the top tier room.

I'm serious, increasing his aerial mobility to be at least to Rosalina's or Ness' levels, maybe even slightly slower, can be a huge boost to him. Though, you don't want him to be too fast, or else his combos may fail. Though, take this with a grain of salt, I just feel increasing his air speed can at least boost him a position or two.

I don't like to consider Perfect Pivoting much until it is actively used in competitive play. Err...has it? If so, can anyone link me so matches using it well?

Sometimes people bring up Luigi's chaingrab to...never seen it used in a tourney once. Therefore, I don't consider it as much of a positive towards the character and more just "there"
The F-air chaingrab is actually pretty easy. Even a player like me can pull it off. It's the D-air chaingrab that is hard.

And Luigi would benefits from PP, but I'm not sure if it will be used in competitive plays soon.

About the mobility talk: while mobility definitely seems to be shaping the current meta-game so far, let us remember Rosalina and Ness are not exactly mobile. Hitbox parade and plethora of kill moves/setups can carry you far.
Rosalina has a meat shield with a whooping 52 HP.
Ness has great grab game along with the strongest B-throw that gets stronger with rage.

At least their mobility are around average. It's Luigi that is crying on the corner when it comes on mobility exam.
 

Kofu

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I will say one thing though, playing doubles against Greninja and Villager allows you to see just how ridiculous Greninja would be if he could store the charge of his shurikens. Pocketed fully charged shurikens have crazy knockback and Villager can simply smack them into your face when you're vulnerable.

It's pretty awesome.
It's my favorite way to kill Greninja tbh. People underestimate the massive damage buff Pocket gives projectiles and the corresponding knockback increase they get.
 

Locke 06

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I will say one thing though, playing doubles against Greninja and Villager allows you to see just how ridiculous Greninja would be if he could store the charge of his shurikens. Pocketed fully charged shurikens have crazy knockback and Villager can simply smack them into your face when you're vulnerable.

It's pretty awesome.
Oh, I try to abstain from abusing team attack stuff... but pocketed/bucketed/Ness absorbed Mega Man Fsmash is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
 

FullMoon

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It's my favorite way to kill Greninja tbh. People underestimate the massive damage buff Pocket gives projectiles and the corresponding knockback increase they get.
It's pretty rare to see Greninja (or at least a good one) use a fully charged shuriken on Villager I think. I particularly prefer to just pelt Villager with uncharged ones so as to disrupt him since they're fast, can blow up the Lloyd and they have better range than his slingshot so it kinda forces Villager to approach since otherwise the match isn't going to anywhere. That's my experience with him at least, I used to struggle with Villager a lot before.

In Doubles though I think Villager might just be Greninja's best buddy it gets pretty crazy when there's two giant shurikens flying around.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Well I mean, the Smash series as a whole is all about freedom in your movement options as opposed to other fighting games, so its no surprise that in a game almost solely focused around mobility and being able to move fluidly that the faster characters are generally better.
That no excuse really.
 

Z'zgashi

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Its a perfect excuse. Game is all about mobility, having good mobility = generally good in the game.
 
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Terios the Hedgehog

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Yup, I'm aware of that. I think we have to understand that the topic of 'matchups vs Sonic' isn't solely about spindash, and he has way more going on that he gets massive reward and from, most being very safe. He's very polarizing, but his speed level makes this an issue. He can be very polarizing (more than most_ for most characters who don't have an easy way to deal with his safe, fast, and rewarding approached.

However, he is also polarizing because I feel some players won't be fast enough - those who aren't dexterity/speed players, but players with a different skillset that works well in fighting games. Sonic makes these alternative non-speed-based skillsets not enough to compete, as Sonic demands all players have the fast physical reaction times that dexterity/speed players have. At that point it's less about character viability and more about what player skillsets are viable.
Sonic's have been saying this since Brawl more or less. Sonic doesn't beat characters. He beats players.You should be able to win if you're a smart spacing player, a player good at reads or a player with fast reactions. One of those skillsets should be able to pull you through. Sonic certainly puts a LOT of pressure on your ability to play to your strengths and not crack but that's really nothing new as far as fighting games go.
 

Chuva

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Rosalina has a meat shield with a whooping 52 HP.
Ness has great grab game along with the strongest B-throw that gets stronger with rage.

At least their mobility are around average. It's Luigi that is crying on the corner when it comes on mobility exam.
You're just reiterating my point. Both Ness and Rosalina have their share of unique moves and mechanics that allows them to compete in the higher echelons despite not having the mobility factor other top characters posses: Luma, Ness double jump, excellent hitboxes, juggling potential, dominant aerials, good grab game and reliable kill power are among the reasons that allows these characters to stay relevant without having the frame data of Mario, the overall mobility of ZSS or a safe displacement special move like Spin Dash.

I wasn't comparing them to Luigi but, to be fair, Luigi's combos, kill setups, fireball game, frame data and cyclone are all great traits to the point where he has become relevant at high level play (that may change of course, but that can be said for a lot of characters, and no i'm not claiming Luigi is on the same level as Rosa/Ness). So to repeat my original post: mobility seems to be a common attribute in the popular competitive picks, but there are other attributes and/or mechanics that can also carry a character far, although admittedly these are rare cases at the current stage of the game.

Or who knows, maybe I'm just completely wrong and in the year 20XX the meta-game will be about us spamming Quick Attack, Spin Dash and Bouncing Fish, with 90% of our matches being time-outs because no one bothers to punish super safe and fast moves anymore, meanwhile Rosalina and Ness becomes shadows of a golden age long gone: mere minions of our speedsters overlords.
 
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