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I can't imagine Mario being any higher than high tier. Wario's probably the same.
No, Thoron+ is actual trash. You lose your arcthunder kill set ups, it takes forever the charge, and the lag after a whiffed Thoron+ is immense. There's a reason why Nairo doesn't bother with it.
Solid high tier that I don't think loses TOO hard outside of specific MUs (disjoint, strong range), otherwise most are either winnable or favorable. Basically most of the time he can do whatever he wants because he's above average at everything. And his new Nair is really really dumb : D.
Kind of. I mentioned this in another thread earlier today but I feel like there are significantly less BTFO matchups in this game than there were in Melee and especially Brawl. It could just be because the game is still so new but nobody really feels Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganondorf levels of god awful yet. The only character I feel like people have already largely given up on is Zelda while people are at least trying to make heavily nerfed characters like Marth, Game and Watch, and Falco work competitively.
Yeah you pretty much nailed it, he's solid all around and doesn't have any exploitable weakness that I could easily see him being comfortably high tier. I'm only repeating what you're saying, though.
Which I don't get because I don't think he was hit anywhere as hard with the nerf bat as some characters were. There are some people that talk as if he's practically unplayable now and, like I said in my last post, people are giving Game and Watch and Falco (who are shells of their former selves) more of a chance than him. Wario was kind of a niche character in Brawl though so that may have something to do with it.
When it comes to teams I think Ganon is the best heavyweight option out there. He's not quite as big a target as Bowser, DK, and D3 while being as if not more powerful. Things get even crazier when you consider how dangerous custom options like Warlock Blade and Flame Wave are in doubles. Really all you need for him to work is a character who's fast enough to bail him out when he gets in trouble, otherwise he'll rack up tons of kills without much trouble.
It depends on what we define as a "heavy" character. For example, Ike, Wario and R.O.B. are all around the same weight, and I definitely think that Wario and R.O.B. are better teammates. If we were to include Yoshi, then he's easily better, but that's a stretch to what a heavyweight is and Yoshi is not quite as heavy as he used to be (I believe he's C. Falcon heavy now).
Legit analogy except Dorm had 2 things over Robin. A good movement option with teleport that was good for mix-ups as well.Robin doesn't really zone with projectiles in any kind of an effective way; the whole point of the Thoron is to force the mobility not to be such a crippling issue. If they're moving into your range, hit them with your sword. If they're staying out, charge Thoron. If they try to hang just barely outside of range or are using someone like Shulk who has a longer sword than you Arcfire them. I don't see the dead spot, especially since while Robin's mobility is pretty poor it isn't zero. I mean, Robin isn't fast; it's not easy. If you throw out the wrong move at the wrong time (or don't attack when you need to!) you get punished, and it requires good fundamental defense to escape bad situations. It is, however, doable, especially since so many of those aerials auto-cancel and you do have a pretty serviceable jab (you honestly don't even need your tilts/dash attack that much so their lack of safety isn't a huge deal). Yes resource limits make this even harder yet; you have to really play the spatial control game carefully and smart, but everything that matters recharges fast enough that it isn't crippling.
Emblem Lord I know plays many other fighters so perhaps this analogy won't be wasted. A good parallel character from another fighter is Dormammu from UMvC3. Dorm was honestly a pretty slow guy in a game that was mostly speedy rushdown, but he was one of the best characters in the game. He had a lot of projectiles but spamming them on average accomplished nothing and got you killed. It's not like he was a good support character either; his assists kinda sucked. How did he do it? Well, his normals were really good at stuffing approaches, his punishes hit hard, those non-spammable projectiles were at least really good at sniping people if he had a read, and if you elected to just hang back he'd charge spells which let him rain meteors on the battlefield which was as strong as it sounds. Charging spells in that fast paced of a game with people rushing you was pretty much impossible (there were a few sneaky set-ups mid-combo, totally predicated on you landing that hit in the first place of course). It didn't matter. The mere fact that you could forced people to play around that fact. No one ever wanted to give Dorm breathing room, and his mere presence on the battlefield forced people to play his game. His spells could be the most powerful move in the game you never used just because of what it forced his opponent to do. If you actually did get your rushdown in on him his escapes weren't even all that great, but he at least had high health and was able to use the universal defensive options just like everyone else to endure. That's pretty much Robin except with Thoron instead of Dorm's spells. You can play a full game, never hit the neutral special once, and Thoron can win you the game.
Robin is probably not as good as Dorm was, but that fundamental gameplan is sound. It's hard; Robin is probably one of the hardest characters to play since you have to be so careful between your difficulties at point blank, your low mobility, and your resource limits. It is, however, very sound, and I have a firm belief its power will only grow with time. Now obviously I'm talking out of pure game theory here; this game is way too young for us to actually be sure which characters are good or bad especially complicated characters like Robin, and Robin isn't even popular locally so it's not like I even see an awful lot of him/her. I just can't help but look at the tools I see and see a powerful character, and it's easy not to worry about early difficulties since Robin is transparently a very difficult character to play (but difficult to play does not necessarily mean bad).
@ParanoidDrone Robin's only aerial that doesn't AC out of a shorthop is dair. Dark Fists is also just so scary on ledges; it's hard to ledge trap Ganon when he can throw out that kind of a hit at whim.
@Conda I dunno; I think that's biases from old smash games talking. All of the past smash games had characters who were good at everything that mattered alongside several specialist level strengths (64 Pikachu, Melee Sheik, Brawl MK), and that distorted the metagames by making a lot of specialists just obsolete with the further question of why play a specialist at all when you can have specialist level strengths with no weaknesses of significance at all. A lot of other fighters have avoided that problem over the years, and I think 4 avoids it for the first time in smash series history. In these other fighters, sure the well rounded Ryu types always do well, but the specialists who are supposed to run into problems just overcome. Just look at least year's EVO and how well Snakeyes placed in SFIV with Zangief, a super extreme character who I'm pretty sure allegedly has several hard counters. While I would agree that high tier "well rounded" characters are safer and easier, I'm not really convinced they're better than the more extreme guys; often the extreme characters require more creative thinking in certain match-ups but can make it work and then proceed to ruin everyone's day when that happens.
Marvel vs Capcom is a series that shines on good balance design
His bike also got buffed nicely, even without the parts being used as projectiles. The size of that thing is enormous now, and he can just ditch it to use it as an un-reflectable projectile along the ground. Wario is very solid.
That's not even how the character works at all...
Also ganons u smash being god tier anti air, in both knock back and damage, as well as the non existant end lag that makes that moves so bloody safe.
^^^
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-241#post-18303183
that set is so so amazing
I think I did the same thing with Robin's Archfire.
I think Wario is a high tier. He really didn't change much sans losing an arguably better F smash in Brawl. But his D smash and U smash were fixed immensely. Nothing else worth noting has changed, although losing bike parts is a bit of a shame. Waft is still amazing though. He's fat, and moves fast with moves that aren't super slow [some are even super fast, like D tilt, fair, etc] I don't think he's the top of the pack since he lacks range, something that holds Luigi back too. But Wario can approach better than Luigi, but lacks those amazing combos.
Link stole Ike's old Dtilt I see.
I thought Link's D-tilt always had the meteor hitbox. Has that hitbox been shifted from the hilt and is now farther down the sword?
while mobilty is impoertant that would change ganons arch type completely and would probably make him top tier.
I did the same with Falcon Kick past Arcfire. Thought maybe it was because of the fire on the foot. Then I didn't replicate it. Haven't bothered testing but they definitely have some level of projectile/regular invincibility.
I'm not even that big of a fan of Link but I appreciate the fact that he's no longer Potato Tier in this game. I feel like a good number of buffs and nerfs in this game were justified. Mario, Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Captain Falcon, and Yoshi actually being functional for the first time in years (or even for the first time) is a nice change of pace.
The same way every other character should deal with shields. By doing nothing and waiting for them to drop it or roll and hitting them.
I believe it was mentioned by Sakurai that it meteors once his sword "tips", but I'm not sure. As for it meteoring in past games, I don't know as well.
NO! *closes eyes*
So I know that if you put your shield up and nothing strikes it, you have to wait (number please?) frames if you shield drop.
For what it's worth, I personally believe Ganondorf has slight matchup advantage against both Link and Toon Link. He has a better midrange than they do, and does better edgeguarding and juggling them than the other way around.NO! *closes eyes*
jk, they were good matches. Reminds me of their Brawl Falcon vs Link matches, except more exciting and the characters are viable this time around
Link's pretttttyyy annoying to fight in this game. Toon Link even more so, but I haven't seen many people play him for some reason? Toon Link is still super good, people never seem to mention him in this thread, but I have a feeling he could very well be a contender for top 20.
DK in a nutshell to me:
Shield drop is 7 frames like in Brawl, just you are forced to hold shield slightly longer in this game. Also the other thing people don't talk about that is HUGELY important is the universal nerf to spotdodge (starts up in 4 frames in this game if I recall. Biggest winner from this change is Ganondorf, and to a smaller extent tether grabbers).
It's true, and unfortunate. His uptilt hits very strangely (I think Bowser's does too) and Fsmash simply misses people right in front of him. I don't know what other blind spots he has? Although frame 22 fsmash is slow, frame 14 upsmash and 11 downsmash are plenty fast, and very very strong. I dunno what else to say, he seems solid.
I would honestly hate for Kirby to be outright good, because he's just a PAIN to play against if he wants to slow the game down. He just forces a lot of conventional spacing to be unsafe, and even though he sucks (inb4obviousjoke) in neutral, you really just don't want him to get in and then start edgeguarding.
