Character Competitive Impressions

[Anomilus]

I would sparingly use the notion of Ganon punishing mistakes as much as he takes a calculated choice based on stage position and the rewards/risk work out pretty well.

Ya know I like that. Calculated choice as opposed to punishing mistakes. When I think about my Ganon play, more often I'm reading the situation and acting on what I think is most optimal at the moment. At times it just happens to involve punishing an opponent's error, but other times it's not even an error. I just acted on a hunch and it works out or doesn't work out. Sounds reckless, but it's definitely not based off of nothing. For example if I'm facing a Cpt. Falcon, I know they want to rush in and dash attack, dash grab, or some sort of jump-in shenanigans. Whatever happens afterward is usually just an exchange within neutral, only when Ganon wins the neutral, it can at times look like a punish or even a smart read. I don't think Ganon's always pulling off smart reads. He's just good at making himself look vulnerable and getting people to drop their guard at the wrong time.

Probably why at times people get run over by his Wizard Foot despite its apparent slowness.

I might be rambling. But whatevs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Boy does he!
It's also one reason why we probably have so few Pac-Mains...especially dedicated ones.

T.T i


i like to think of myself as creative

 

[Saturn_]

I don't know if he's really high tier, but I've never played Ganondorf and thought he was weak or an easy kill. ftilt and dtilt kills like a third of the cast at 90% due to how it arcs them low to the ground, and he forces opponents to approach very carefully since he can keep pace with like 1/3 the successful hits. He's one of a handful of characters with a dair that's a true spike, and while his recovery is bad it's balanced by the fact that he's so heavy that his up-b comes into play less often than a lot of characters. Plus, his side-b gives him options, more than many can say. Some people seem to think he's secretly the best character in the game, which I think is bizarre (shoutouts to Bizzarro Flame) but I think he clearly his in the upper half of the roster.

 

[Antonykun]

T.T i


i like to think of myself as creative

Creativity isn't a blanket term. Like I used to be creative in Yugioh but in competitive Pokemon I am uber uncreative. Besides you are putting in all that Samus work (it's gotta be worth something)

 

[Shaya]

The eternal truth to Ganondorf is you probably didn't realise you're backed into a corner until it's too late and the only way to survive is to get THROUGH Ganondorf. Fortunately Ganondorf will absolutely MURDER you for that. If you can keep Ganon back/constantly out without sacrificing stage position then you're probably beating the old man. At this point that game plan is a lot more solid and meta relevant than most others I see. The character doesn't need more than smart shielding until an opportunity arises and this in itself is a very dangerous trait for a character to have, especially on one that only needs two openings per stock. This is all because of how potent his mid-range options are.

T.T i


i like to think of myself as creative

I make the bold claim of killing someone a million different ways in a million matches if I'm playing G&W, guaranteed.
Talking about Samus though, isn't it weird how many multi hit moves she has? Is her entire world shaped around the locks and off stage gimps we all like to see and many other things we aren't aware of yet that multihit moves could possibly achieve?

That's why I keep thinking "up-b needs to do what it was shown to do". I just think it's weird she carries you to to the top of the stage with things and then you don't die for all the effort she just put into it. And then you ban Halberd and you're feeling super super safe about the rest of the set afterwards.

 

[Dkdudeman]

Instead of getting involved in the Pikachu argument (you guys know my views on this already), I'll say instead that ROB is almost definitely a top 10 character, regardless of customs. He may be large and susceptible to juggles, but he also has a KO throw, great grab range and grounded normals, decent projectile game (which forces most characters to come to him), and good overall mobility specs (he's only middle of the cast in terms of walk, run, and airspeed, but the fact that he's middle in all three makes him pretty good on average). He loses to Diddy pretty badly, but I don't think that any other matchups are really too bad for him.

It might just be me, but doesn't R.O.B. seem to have a terrible matchup against Mario? I've never been able to do anything except completely destroy a R.O.B. when I'm playing Mario. However, I haven't played R.O.B. against Mario.

 

[Ffamran]

The eternal truth to Ganondorf is you probably didn't realise you're backed into a corner until it's too late and the only way to survive is to get THROUGH Ganondorf. Fortunately Ganondorf will absolutely MURDER you for that. If you can keep Ganon back/constantly out without sacrificing stage position then you're probably beating the old man. At this point that game plan is a lot more solid and meta relevant than most others I see. The character doesn't need more than smart shielding until an opportunity arises and this in itself is a very dangerous trait for a character to have, especially on one that only needs two openings per stock. This is all because of how potent his mid-range options are.

I make the bold claim of killing someone a million different ways in a million matches if I'm playing G&W, guaranteed.
Talking about Samus though, isn't it weird how many multi hit moves she has? Is her entire world shaped around the locks and off stage gimps we all like to see and many other things we aren't aware of yet that multihit moves could possibly achieve?

That's why I keep thinking "up-b needs to do what it was shown to do". I just think it's weird she carries you to to the top of the stage with things and then you don't die for all the effort she just put into it. And then you ban Halberd and you're feeling super super safe about the rest of the set afterwards.

Ganondorf is the mighty glacier in this game; he will tank through anything and destroy you. This reminds me of that one match against a Duck Hunt on Xanadu where Duck Hunt kept chucking stuff at him and it looked like they were just inconveniences to him. Then again, Guy did a similar thing with Greninja against Dunnobro's Duck Hunt. The difference is that Ganondorf can take his merry time while figuring out Duck Hunt and catching them when they make a mistake or leading towards a mistake while Greninja had to think faster since Greninja's not that durable.

Fighting Ganondorf means you have to not miss a beat or else he'll find that one opening, that one pattern, that one habit and wreck you and I love that about fighting and playing as Ganondorf since it forces you to slow down, analyze everything, and keep calm despite whatever happens. The fact that Ganondorf can reliably combo and juggle despite being a heavyweight with powerful hits is already out of this world, so you have to play seriously or else risk getting punished for being a dummy.

As for Samus's multi-hit moves, I was thinking of Falco's Fair towards the stage. The thing is that it's faster and maybe more reliable to Bair stage spike with him than Fair stage spike since it's a slower move and it's probably telegraphed seeing as Falco would need to face towards the stage. Someone's going to take a hint that there's something going on and might prepare to tech while Bair stage spike can just be a run off Bair. Still, the fact that Fair can lock people means it might be safer than whiffing a Bair. Falco's Fair sends people diagonally up, so what if instead of stage spiking, he sends people under the stage? Unless it's Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Kirby, or someone else with a great recovery, they're probably going to die or panic since not a lot of people find themselves under a stage like that, hence, the Falco in Pon's video Fire Birding towards the stage and not attempting to make it towards the other ledge - I don't remember if he still had his second jump. Still, would most people be able to make it back? I remember the Ganondorf Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Dive to the other side of the stage and Mew2King doing Monkey Flip under the stage and Rocketbarrel Boosting to the other ledge.

Samus's Fair could do the same thing and as a frame 6 move, it's probably much safer than Falco's Fair. The issue is how to get back onto the stage and setting it up. Fox might be able to pull this off too, but his fall speed might be trouble. Hmm, I wonder if her, Greninja, and Sheik's Uair can do something similar. Greninja and maybe Link and Captain Falcon might be able to set up an under-stage gimp with their Bairs and the Capt.'s Nair. There's also Palutena's Nair. Also, didn't we see this already with Luigi Cyclone and Doctor Tornado?

Now I'm really curious about this.

 

[Saturn_]

You know, I need to pick a secondary, and I'm wondering if I'm not just overthinking this and should just 2nd Ganondorf to go with my C.Falcon main.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu, whatever we think of his core power, is not hurt at all by customs. Heavy Skull Bash is a really nice upgrade, and the match-up by match-up choice of Thunder Wave is pretty awesome. I actually disagree with those lists on several points, but I can't see Pikachu as #2 without customs and "not on the top 10 list" with customs.

I completely disagree (our list differences aside). Of course Pikachu isn't hurt by having additional options (Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave are both really good), but when other characters get options that are particularly good against Pikachu, his matchups become quite complicated. This is due to the following facts:

1) Pikachu relies on having full followups to his combos in order to win against several characters because of how light he is and his aerial range (which makes trades go poorly for him sometimes). When you give those characters better escape options via customs, Pikachu goes from winning those matchups to losing them--something that isn't true of anyone else in Top Tier (Sheik is comparable, at best).

2) Pikachu relies on edgeguarding to be good against several characters. When you give those characters better recovery options (and lots of characters do get better recovery options with customs), Pikachu's KO power is significantly weakened.

For a matchup in which both of these principles are cleanly illustrated, take a look at Pikachu vs. Ganon. This MU is probably a 60:40 in favor of Pikachu without customs, but with customs I would argue that it's 55:45 in Ganon's favor, because Pikachu has a hard time gimping Ganon with customs (it is possible, but very hard) and because Wizard's Dropkick is annoying for up-air and Thunder juggles in particular (it's one of the MUs where I believe that Ganon should take WD over WF).

In my experience, Pikachu suffers from the addition of customs more than just about every character who isn't named Meta Knight or Jigglypuff, just because of the composition of his kit.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I make the bold claim of killing someone a million different ways in a million matches if I'm playing G&W, guaranteed.
Talking about Samus though, isn't it weird how many multi hit moves she has? Is her entire world shaped around the locks and off stage gimps we all like to see and many other things we aren't aware of yet that multihit moves could possibly achieve?

That's why I keep thinking "up-b needs to do what it was shown to do". I just think it's weird she carries you to to the top of the stage with things and then you don't die for all the effort she just put into it. And then you ban Halberd and you're feeling super super safe about the rest of the set afterwards.

its not persay shes lacking in kill options (bair, f smash, charge shot) up b oos is not persay bad its just more risky than it should b considering the reward. (at least i find myself killing off the side more than the top) she has some strong ass juggle game. most of her move set on ground pops them right up for an u air. (u air being her best move and all blah blah blah.


Any character samus forces jump approaches on i feel are her better mu's not exactally winning mu's but better. most character dont like to challenge u air.

but yeah she really does carrie people high up. almost makes me thing she should have zzs jump high at times (gravity suit) but over all it is strange that her up b while decently strong does not completly kill unless used high in the air or high percents.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So we are at the point of overhyping Ganon? Geez, I never knew we would fall this far... His Up Smash is nowhere near comparable to Snake's Up Tilt. Wasn't that nonsense frame 6 and had an extremely obnoxious disjoint, while Ganon's does have less ending lag, but 21 frames of startup? And his options off the stage are pretty awful. His recovery is one of the worst in the game and if you outrange his side b, then you probably beat him off stage. For example, what can he do against Pit's fair off the stage? Robin's nair?

Also, who is truly threatened by this character? What top/high tier does this character beat with relying on them making mistakes? Because from what I've seen/experienced, he is not at the level of the characters around him. It's just kinda annoying to see characters overhyped time and time again with little evidence or results to show their actual strength. Meanwhile, characters that actually have results get ignored (Pit/Dark Pit for example).

Ganondorf has favorable matchups against Wario, ROB, Metaknight, and Mario, all generally considered better than Ganon by most people. He beats these characters by outperforming them in midrange. He doesn't generally win any matchups greater than 55/45 given by design he has a lot of counterplay, but Ganondorf generally can outspace these characters and get greater reward from it than they can get on him.

Also Ganon goes even against the Pits precisely because they can't really edgeguard him that well. DI correctly, airdodge and save your double jump and recover low, and remember to mix up your movements and timing slightly and recover higher against people who commit too hard to trying to specifically cover low options.

His tournament results are actually pretty good right now. I could repeat how Gungnir back in the 3DS era placed 2nd in a 106 man tournament. Ray_Kalm, Matt Hazard, Vermanubis, and Hi-Hatz also have attended and done pretty respectably well in various tournaments, though I don't have all the data on me right this instant.

 

[TriTails]

People still overhyping Luigi.

His top tier MUs are nothing stellar to me.

I have to ask a question, what are Luigi's good MUs against top tiers aside from Sonic? @ Shaya ? What made you think he is so high?

Disadvantage against ROB, Mega, Pac, Mac, Greninja, Pits, and some more chars isn't very convincing.

 

[Shaya]

Story @ Road Death Wheel

Spoiler

*car trip back from a tournament*
FALCON FALCON FALCON FALCON,
> "by the way, all of Ganon's aerials have basically the same or faster start up than Falcon's"
"DAT UP AIR"
> "ZSS up air muchos great kk"
"Wouldn't it be cool if there was a Ganon version of Zero Suit Samus?"
"Yeah that would be amazing"
*sad face*
(although conceptually it's an interesting idea, would probably be lots of fun to have Up-B kill even earlier )

People still overhyping Luigi.

His top tier MUs are nothing stellar to me.

I have to ask a question, what are Luigi's good MUs against top tiers aside from Sonic? @ Shaya ? What made you think he is so high?

Disadvantage against ROB, Mega, Pac, Mac, Greninja, Pits, and some more chars isn't very convincing.

As I was collecting the list of characters I've tended to see Luigi do fine in, I realised he seems pretty solid against all of them tbqh. Haven't seen much use against Rosalina, but everyone else 'good' doesn't seem like he's having anything but an alright or better time against.
Neutral B is a very good move. So is Nair. Somehow he also has a really good dash grab. With probably a bit more going for him in the down throw department than Diddy (but Diddy also has up throw @_@). He may be overrated but right now he's a very consistent character with very strong game changing tools.
There seems to be quite a few Luigi players out there, although not too many using solo at all. All those characters you listed are pretty uncommon too.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

......this thread I tell annoys the crap outta me. I say Ganon's a bad falcon clone I get a bunch of crap. Shaya says Ganon's a bad Falcon and no one says anything. ......

*sigh* oh well. I'm not really sure about those top ten customs from SolidSense. I don't see why ike greninja and palutena get such huge boost.

 

[Yonder]

I personally think the biggest issue I have with Diddy is his side B, so much distance and power

People still overhyping Luigi.

His top tier MUs are nothing stellar to me.

I have to ask a question, what are Luigi's good MUs against top tiers aside from Sonic? @ Shaya

Aside from Sonic, I'll say he does quite good against Diddy, who is the best character in the meta game so far. That is a huge plus to fare well against Diddy. [Even to small advantage Diddy I think]

He also goes even with Falcon, beats Fox, and beats Olimar I think, who is slowly becoming a more prominent threat. Also DK, who is being noticed in a customs environment.

So I do agree he's a bit overrated, but I have him as 12th on my personal tier list in the high tier. I could see him go to 10th with customs thanks to a slightly better recovery from the floating missile, which is enough to cover one more weakness. Also iceballs have untapped potential, it will set up combos great eventually.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Story @ Road Death Wheel

Spoiler

*car trip back from a tournament*
FALCON FALCON FALCON FALCON,
> "by the way, all of Ganon's aerials have basically the same or faster start up than Falcon's"
"DAT UP AIR"
> "ZSS up air muchos great kk"
"Wouldn't it be cool if there was a Ganon version of Zero Suit Samus?"
"Yeah that would be amazing"
*sad face*
(although conceptually it's an interesting idea, would probably be lots of fun to have Up-B kill even earlier )

this made me both laugh and feel sad at the same time.

 

[DanGR]

Just following up on an old post.

Any player calling himself megafox is probably not good. I think I know who you are talking about and I'm not impressed.

Fox can't handle the top tiers.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-tgc-event-1-209-entrants-houston-tx.393025/

 

[Shaya]

Just following up on an old post.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-tgc-event-1-209-entrants-houston-tx.393025/

I believe he made that post after the event had happened for the sheer purpose of sarcasm.
Unless of course that's you following up on everyone not realising he was being sarcastic.

 

[Cassio]

I tested dash to runs for some characters as compared to pika. The results surprised me. Comparitively from best to worst:
Diddy/ZSS
Pika/Sheik/Luigi/Rosalina
Marth
Sonic

Pikachu's looks like itd be longer but it has a ton of IASA frames, and the distance itself is short (shorter then Sheiks, which makes it better).

I also tested the skid animations but forgot a lot of them
Sonic
ZSS
Sheik/Pika

You've given me a lot of information in the past~ And I do put in time playing with the character as well as having a fair amount of in-house experience with two solid Pikachu mains, plus a brief ESAM interlude.


Sheik likely has the fastest dash to run in the game (usually referred to as dash to shield, I think this is probably more accurate a term considering where the meta will go with pivots/other actions). Being able to move, B and have all options is very very very good; I would kill for this single spec on just about every character. Sheik's walk is fantastic and her forward tilt is extremely good; not reasonable to be considered punishable by any defensive actions (including all of pika's), it's setting her up for everything she wants to do, forever. Also nice perspective transition, instead of it being diddy having pikachu X, it's the other way around =). I wouldn't really rate diddy roll as game breaking beyond any other characters good rolls (27 frame rolls are all there for the high/top tiers).
And Quick Attack makes everything better, but how much better I'm not sure of yet, I think it makes his abusive match ups a lot more frustrating than they need to be (not being able to punish an up-b into your face back), but from there on it's just "well is pika's everything else that good?" Does he actually truly force those situations upon other people in a way that reaction or the opposing character's tools have no distinctive answers for? A fast OoS aerial can result in Pika's destruction maybe not on reaction to Quick Attack but from intuition and there lies the question about whether you can throw a list of set ups we can all envision ourselves as impossible to deal with? IF this were the case, we'd be seeing a lot more Pikachu.

Also I would put Sheik's jab as one of the best in the cast.

Yeah I definitely let you know stuff that I found out at the time. I felt like most of my winter was spent trying to get a handle on the basics of the mechanics and reconcile the differences/similarities with Brawl and dealing with old habits. That time was invaluable because I returned with a real familiarity with the game and able to explore pika as a smash 4 character. I wasnt aware of most of the stuff I am now (dont even think I was QAing out of shield).

But yes Im certainly aware of the importance of ground dash commitments and ground movement in general so Im glad you brought that up (most people might be more interested in more tangible character traits, I think some of the most important experimenting Ive done has had to do with ground movement). Let me touch on three things with that.

1)I dont know if you recall me being really excited about a post I made in the mechanics thread, but making use of pika's shortened fox trot has been something Ive found very valuable in covering and spacing along the ground.

Spoiler

@ Shaya @TheReflexWonder You guys can tear this part. This was partly inspired by Reflex's work. This also might be something more useful for pikachu or specific characters but Im not sure yet:

Putting out something Ive been using for awhile. This is a movement option along the ground, this may have been something known or an old brawl tech but its very underutilized. I experimented a lot with ground options because being able to utilize tilts to their max effectiveness is extremely beneficial to small characters and those with strong tilts.

I call this a minifox [mini-foxtrot] for the sake of convenience (dont really care about the name). As we know a fox-trot commits you to a set length of distance and time before youre allowed to perform certain actions. For me the distance was more annoying then the time commitment since it became difficult to space properly.

In any case, one thing I found is the strength and duration of the dash input has a minor affect on the distance of this initial dash, which on its own is useful. Additionally, a reverse dash input (dash dance input) can consume some or virtually all of the initial distance of a fox-trot, also depending on the strength and duration (timing) of the dash inputs. Effectively this allows you much greater variation in your spacing from a fox-trot. Its particularly useful if you have a good dash, with dtilt and the smaller your frame decreases during dash/crouch.

The other reason this is useful is that the inputs and animation are the same as a dash dance, with the only variation occurring in the timing and strength of inputs. I find this important because Perfect Pivoting and Sm4sh Dash Dance share the same animation and inputs, effectively allowing you to use all 3 to space along the ground from between the range of your characters perfect pivot behind you to the length of their longest fox trot. I find that it makes dashing along the ground and use of tilts much more useful.

There was 2 things, I think that accurately describes the first point.

1)You can vary the longer length of your initial dash based on how hard/fast you do the input. I want to say the variation is the range between 3 and 4 pikas.
2) The more important one imo is if you input a quick dash in the opposite direction first, then do a fox-trot/initial dash input in the direction you wanted it cuts down on the length of your initial dash. The variation is anywhere between almost going nowhere to the full fox trot distance.

Its a bit hard to describe the hand motions but its not hard to do (easier then Perfect Pivoting). And again Im also not sure if this was known but Ive been finding it pretty useful.

Gonna try to do what I can to make an image of this.

Situation #1
| = starting position
_ = deadzone can't react through this area
.... = Foxtrot distance variation depending on force/speed of input

| _ _ _ _ _...

Situation #2

| = starting position
, = rough input for fox trot
X = full length of fox trot
... = Distance varation from the mini fox trot.

,,,|............X

Directions:
-From the starting position press left
-At one of the ,'s input a fox trot right

2) As I put at the top of the post it seems pikachus dash-run is pretty competitive. It surprised me and didnt surprise me, Ive been using dash to crouch a lot and always thought it was a good option, but didnt realize it was because pikas frame data was good here.
3) Lastly no matter what commitment pikachu makes on the ground (shielding, dashing, skid, etc.), he can always escape with jump-cancel quick attack.

"Diddy Kong" roll is appropriate since Diddy's roll is trivially longer (I like to call Pika's Nair the MK nair too, lol). It isnt game breaking, but what makes pikas better then other characters with similar rolls isnt just the roll but pikachus options out of roll. In particular, forward roll to reverse utilt is able to trap an opponent in their shield on top of covering a counter-roll (traditionally cited as a good option after being crossed up by a roll) due to its late forward hit, not to mention that utilt itself is a powerful combo starter.

Lastly I tested Sheik's ftilt on pikas shield, pika can drop shield to dtilt before her shield comes up. That means he can also bair her if she does the same to the back of his shield, and maybe also QA. Im actually surprised by this I was mostly testing to see if pika could QA away if his shield got ftilted.

It all adds up to a powerful ground game. Strong ground movement in his speed, low commitment, rolls, and QA; strong options out of his movement; and powerful punishes.

I also think we have a different view of QA's strengths. It's not about making the first move, its the check mate in a sense. Well, basically I think if youre relying on QA to start your offense, youre going to have a bad time for the reasons you mentioned. [THAT BEING SAID most people have a terrible sense for how to deal with QA in neutral and so we still see this move being abused in ways it shouldnt be.] Instead wait for or force an opponents commitment, then punish with QA. And as I mentioned earlier its also a tool of anti-commitment. Punishment and anti-commitment. The mere threat of it is important as well.

I can't fault you for thinking otherwise. Pikachu is strong offensive powerhouse yet few if anyone are trying to discover pikas nuances and traps because its inherently more difficult then camping with jolts (bad), spacing fairs and other SH aerials, and abusing unfamiliar players with QA. I may sound like a grumpy pikachu hermit saying this but players are too content with "how well can I abuse this character" rather then "how well I can use this character" and so instead of seeing pikas more complex strengths and strats we only get a visual of his abusive nonsense. Even ESAM before he quit understood this, for him after Final Battle I told him his smash 4 pika needed to rely significantly more on his grounded tools, and he said he was starting to understand that and had a lot of carry-over identity from Brawl. ESAM gave a great kick-start to pika's meta and at the time he represented the best we knew about pika, but in retrospect he was a primary offender in trying to abuse QA in neutral, never jump cancelled as he had tap jump off (you can see it in his footage as well), and had fair heavy SH centric game against most of the cast. We can tell from this alone that the character hasnt seen optimal play.

Not that I claim pikachu holds a monopoly on character nuance, part of the reason I hadnt bothered sharing info is because I feel frustrated with players who've jumped onto the simple and easy to abuse characters and strats without bothering to see what deeper aspects characters may have. I think its a pretty pervasive issue with the whole of the smash 4 metagame atm.

I always treated Swordfighters as "customs on" even in customs off. They're still pretty meh. Promising, but meh right now. but yeah 213X min weight is the truth, we're still trying to figure out the best height is somewhere between min height and 1/2 height)
@ Cassio Secret Pika information?
I would like to say I want in but... I'm sure I'm not worthy.

Not trying to keep it secret at this point just kind of lazy. Here's another cool thing.

As people know pikachu can drop from the ledge earlier the other characters. This also applies to get up options. More importantly, this also applies when you attempt to ledge trump. In essence you can always trump the ledge immediately after the opponent, and input your get up ledge option before your opponent. Even cooler, if your opponent does nothing they will be trumped. Basically, theres no reason for pikachu to NOT trump the ledge from his opponent and then do a quick get up option. If the opponent gets trumped, when the grab the ledge again they wont have invincibility.

 

[Makorel]

Also Ganon goes even against the Pits precisely because they can't really edgeguard him that well. DI correctly, airdodge and save your double jump and recover low, and remember to mix up your movements and timing slightly and recover higher against people who commit too hard to trying to specifically cover low options.

Customs go a long way to patching up Pit's edge game IMO. Impact Orbitars are a huge disjoint which makes them safer to use and easier to land than Pit's other aerials, and they send the opponent out further than Fair thanks to a combination of good launch angle and ample hitstun. I had a match against Nario (I was Pit, he was Bowser and then Greninja) a while ago that I mostly played like crap, but also managed to get one moment that I think helps showcases what Impact Orbitars can do (and also the only recorded instance of Impact Orbitars being used in a match that I know of).

Nairo didn't recover as well as he could have, but I think he was far enough out that it wouldn't have made a difference. In my experiments with this move these are the only characters that Pit cannot gimp:

( w/Beat custom)

With special mention to who by the time I can launch her far enough out to deal with the combination of her jumps and her air speed she's already knocked into the blast zone.

There might be some recovery options I'm not considering or custom moves that I am unaware of but basically the thing to take away from this is that the only characters that Pit can't gimp are characters with enough refreshable recovery to overcome the horizontal and vertical distance that Impact Orbitars puts them out at.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

impact orbitars are major poop

 

[MezzoMe]

I personally think the biggest issue I have with Diddy is his side B, so much distance and power

I actually think that Coffee Flip is pretty easy to deal with because it has slow start-up and inexistent priority(in fact super armor from grabs does no longer exist, I don't know if the kick has trascendent priority but it can't challenge a flying ridley)
In fact, moves such as 's Bair and 's USmash/Bair can be imputted on reaction and can hit Diddy Kong, closing his stock pretty early, especially in an edgeguarding situation, wich is a key situation in these two match-ups(and I think it is in several match-ups against Diddy Kong).

On a side note, Ganondorf has a highly menacing edgeguarding game, and is probably one of the best edge-guarders in the game, other than having pretty above avarage juggling and comboing capabilities that @ Ffamran mentioned. Just pointing this out, I think that many already knew this.

 

[FullMoon]

Since we mentioned Luigi, do any of his customs make it easier for him to approach? Because otherwise the Greninja MU is probably even worse for Luigi in a customs environment because Shifting Shuriken stops cyclone on it's tracks and leaves Luigi ready to be juggled by Greninja and it also outranges and ignores fireballs, so Greninja can really zone Luigi out I think.

 

[MezzoMe]

Since we mentioned Luigi, do any of his customs make it easier for him to approach? Because otherwise the Greninja MU is probably even worse for Luigi in a customs environment because Shifting Shuriken stops cyclone on it's tracks and leaves Luigi ready to be juggled by Greninja and it also outranges and ignores fireballs, so Greninja can really zone Luigi out I think.

Don't know too much about Luigi, but I'm pretty sure that bouncing fireballs can cover his approach better than his standard ones, also they can go over the Shuriken and hit Greninja.

 

[HeavyLobster]

On a side note, Ganondorf has a highly menacing edgeguarding game, and is probably one of the best edge-guarders in the game, other than having pretty above avarage juggling and comboing capabilities that @ Ffamran mentioned. Just pointing this out, I think that many already knew this.

The fact that everyone(except poor Mac) and his dog(literally) in Smash 4 has pretty good recovery distance increases the value of being able to straight up KO your opponent by touching them offstage, as most other characters have to land a couple of hits to secure the gimp. Ganondorf is very menacing for anyone who has to go through him, and any recovery that can't straight up bypass the space he's capable of controlling is one he can prey upon.

 

[thehard]

Customs go a long way to patching up Pit's edge game IMO. Impact Orbitars are a huge disjoint which makes them safer to use and easier to land than Pit's other aerials, and they send the opponent out further than Fair thanks to a combination of good launch angle and ample hitstun. I had a match against Nario (I was Pit, he was Bowser and then Greninja) a while ago that I mostly played like crap, but also managed to get one moment that I think helps showcases what Impact Orbitars can do (and also the only recorded instance of Impact Orbitars being used in a match that I know of).

Nairo didn't recover as well as he could have, but I think he was far enough out that it wouldn't have made a difference. In my experiments with this move these are the only characters that Pit cannot gimp:

( w/Beat custom)

With special mention to who by the time I can launch her far enough out to deal with the combination of her jumps and her air speed she's already knocked into the blast zone.

There might be some recovery options I'm not considering or custom moves that I am unaware of but basically the thing to take away from this is that the only characters that Pit can't gimp are characters with enough refreshable recovery to overcome the horizontal and vertical distance that Impact Orbitars puts them out at.

Why does that webm have a fitting filename

 

[Makorel]

Why does that webm have a fitting filename

Because I didn't realize that gfycat generated them at random until I had already named this one.

 

[Antonykun]

......this thread I tell annoys the crap outta me. I say Ganon's a bad falcon clone I get a bunch of crap. Shaya says Ganon's a bad Falcon and no one says anything. ......

*sigh* oh well. I'm not really sure about those top ten customs from SolidSense. I don't see why ike greninja and palutena get such huge boost.

I'm worried Shaya would stab me if I argue against him. I still find Ganon being a worse Falcon a tough pill to swallow for the same reason why I thought it was wrong for the two to be compared at all.

 

[FullMoon]

......this thread I tell annoys the crap outta me. I say Ganon's a bad falcon clone I get a bunch of crap. Shaya says Ganon's a bad Falcon and no one says anything. ......

*sigh* oh well. I'm not really sure about those top ten customs from SolidSense. I don't see why ike greninja and palutena get such huge boost.

I just explained Greninja's case in the last page.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Just for reference, here's a list of things Greninja can do with Shifting Shuriken:

SS -> Up-Smash (at higher %s for the sweet-spot)

SS -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Air

SS -> Shadow Sneak

SS -> F-Air

Do note that all four of those are kill-combos, though the Up-Tilt one is avoidable but is still a way to get an opponent above you for juggles. Even then, at lower percentages Greninja can do the following to rack up damage:

SS -> F-Smash

SS -> Dash Attack -> F-Air

SS - > D-Tilt

SS -> Dash Grab (not sure if standing grab works because of the start-up)

All of this coming from a projectile with transcendent priority which, while slower than regular shuriken, is still decently fast and has the same range and start-up as an uncharged shuriken. With shurikens Greninja can get guaranteed kills with very little, if any, risk. The character that takes the longest to die to SS -> Up-Smash in Final Destination is Dedede at 115% and the earliest is 68% on Jigglypuff .

Shifting Shuriken is not only good for killing, it also is great for setting damage combos and juggles that allow Greninja to rack up damage very quickly out of just a projectile. Greninja pretty much becomes a combo machine with this custom.

I'd imagine Shifting Shuriken would make R.O.B's MU against Greninja a complete and total hell because R.O.B is already very prone to being juggled with not very good ways of making it back to the ground safely. The main thing he had going for him is that Greninja was forced to approach, the one thing he can't do very well, because of the gyros blocking out shurikens. Now Shifting Shuriken will just ignore the gyro and hit R.O.B anyway, which means he's going to get combo'd even harder.

Oh, and it's good for edgeguarding too, an opponent hit offstage by the shuriken is going to fly right into an Up-Smash, F-Smash or F-Air depending on % and how close they were to the stage when hit.

This custom is very, very silly. It's the only really notable custom Greninja has but dear god does it make an impact. If a custom Greninja manages to counterpick Halberd, some MUs become so one-sided it's not even funny.

I'm coming to the Greninja boards to co-main him.
Along with Pac "Freaky Fruit Strawberry" Man.

 

[TriTails]

Aside from Sonic, I'll say he does quite good against Diddy, who is the best character in the meta game so far. That is a huge plus to fare well against Diddy. [Even to small advantage Diddy I think]

He also goes even with Falcon, beats Fox, and beats Olimar I think, who is slowly becoming a more prominent threat. Also DK, who is being noticed in a customs environment.

So I do agree he's a bit overrated, but I have him as 12th on my personal tier list in the high tier. I could see him go to 10th with customs thanks to a slightly better recovery from the floating missile, which is enough to cover one more weakness. Also iceballs have untapped potential, it will set up combos great eventually.

Pretty sure Diddy loses to no one.

Fox... huh, I guess you're right. Combo meat (Somehow), light, combos getting broke by N-air (At least for D-throw to F-air), double jab to U-smash gets eaten by N-air (I think), and Blaster being useless because crawl.

His mobility though.

His top tiers MUs are pretty much evens, which is... good I guess.

---

Ganon is good atleast. Having some combos for the heaviest hitter in the game are rather wierd. DA is pretty combo friendly too.

Since we mentioned Luigi, do any of his customs make it easier for him to approach? Because otherwise the Greninja MU is probably even worse for Luigi in a customs environment because Shifting Shuriken stops cyclone on it's tracks and leaves Luigi ready to be juggled by Greninja and it also outranges and ignores fireballs, so Greninja can really zone Luigi out I think.

Unless you got a reaction time of level nine CPUs, Burial Header eats juggling attempts.

At least, I think.

 

[thehard]

Diddy loses to no one? Seems a bit doom and gloom to me. I've seen enough evidence that Olimar and Luigi give him trouble.

Diddy thrives off of his banana setups to pressure in neutral and grabs to convert into high damage. However, Olimar is able to shut down Diddy's options in neutral thanks to the fact that his best zoning tools beat Diddy's banana and he's really good at keeping him in that optimum range for Olimar to convert into damage. Latched Pikmin prevent the banana from coming out at all, Pikmin thrown at grounded bananas will bring it to Olimar and Purple Pikmin Side B (and all FSmashes) barrel right through bananas and hit Diddy. The hard part of this match-up for Olimar is if he does get grabbed against Diddy he can have trouble coming down and he also gets killed very early by him, however unlike against most characters Diddy struggles getting those grabs against Olimar in the first place..

 

[Macchiato]

I think Zelda is definitely underrated atm

 

[MezzoMe]

Pretty sure Diddy loses to no one.

Fox... huh, I guess you're right. Combo meat (Somehow), light, combos getting broke by N-air (At least for D-throw to F-air).

To be fair, Fox's DThrow->Fair is a true combo.
It also appears that burial header is useless to Luigi mains, since all of his sets have the default Super Jump Punch.

 

[Terotrous]

Hardest

I find this interesting, as these aren't really the characters you'd expect. MK doesn't seem like a huge surprise, but I'm a bit curious to hear why the other 3 are up there.

A lot of people were also saying they thought Yoshi vs Pika was +1 for Pika earlier. I haven't really fought it enough to have any useful comments.

Instead of getting involved in the Pikachu argument (you guys know my views on this already), I'll say instead that ROB is almost definitely a top 10 character, regardless of customs. He may be large and susceptible to juggles, but he also has a KO throw, great grab range and grounded normals, decent projectile game (which forces most characters to come to him), and good overall mobility specs (he's only middle of the cast in terms of walk, run, and airspeed, but the fact that he's middle in all three makes him pretty good on average). He loses to Diddy pretty badly, but I don't think that any other matchups are really too bad for him.

I was on the ROB train from Day 1. I think he's got a lot going for him in this game. That nair is a beast, too.

Pikachu, whatever we think of his core power, is not hurt at all by customs. Heavy Skull Bash is a really nice upgrade, and the match-up by match-up choice of Thunder Wave is pretty awesome. I actually disagree with those lists on several points, but I can't see Pikachu as #2 without customs and "not on the top 10 list" with customs.

For reference, my top 10 would probably be, of course customs and with reflection from what I've seen over the past good while since I've posted any kind of a list (this is in order)...

Yoshi top 5 with Customs on? Explain please?

I just have trouble seeing him staying that high when so many people are getting huge buffs from customs and he's getting basically nothing. Do you put him as top 3 with customs off? Because Rosalina gains a ton, so I assume you had her below Yoshi before.

Unless it's some kind of crazy situation where while some characters get better, other characters get better tools against them, and Yoshi somehow squeaks by relatively untouched by it all.

Diddy loses to no one? Seems a bit doom and gloom to me. I've seen enough evidence that Olimar and Luigi give him trouble.

I think Diddy's worst matchups are merely even. He has to work harder against some of those characters, but his reward on hit is still so absurd.

 

[FullMoon]

I find this interesting, as these aren't really the characters you'd expect. MK doesn't seem like a huge surprise, but I'm a bit curious to hear why the other 3 are up there.

For Greninja it's mainly that he doesn't mind Pikachu's low height as much, has more range on most of his moves (I think) and more immediate kill power and setups. Plus Hydro Pump can actually mess with Pikachu's recovery by sending him up and leaving him vulnerable to an aerial. Plus Greninja is not easy to edgeguard.

Pikachu does have an overall better frame data and can combo Greninja pretty well though, but the fact that he can struggle to nail kills makes so that Greninja could have his KO power enhanced by rage which can be really problematic if Greninja gets the stock lead. Quick Attack is still super annoying though.

At least I believe that's the reasoning.

 

[Antonykun]

I tested dash to runs for some characters as compared to pika. The results surprised me. Comparitively from best to worst:
Diddy/ZSS
Pika/Sheik/Luigi/Rosalina
Marth
Sonic

Pikachu's looks like itd be longer but it has a ton of IASA frames, and the distance itself is short (shorter then Sheiks, which makes it better).

I also tested the skid animations but forgot a lot of them
Sonic
ZSS
Sheik/Pika

Yeah I definitely let you know stuff that I found out at the time. I felt like most of my winter was spent trying to get a handle on the basics of the mechanics and reconcile the differences/similarities with Brawl and dealing with old habits. That time was invaluable because I returned with a real familiarity with the game and able to explore pika as a smash 4 character. I wasnt aware of most of the stuff I am now (dont even think I was QAing out of shield).

But yes Im certainly aware of the importance of ground dash commitments and ground movement in general so Im glad you brought that up (most people might be more interested in more tangible character traits, I think some of the most important experimenting Ive done has had to do with ground movement). Let me touch on three things with that.

1)I dont know if you recall me being really excited about a post I made in the mechanics thread, but making use of pika's shortened fox trot has been something Ive found very valuable in covering and spacing along the ground.

Spoiler

2) As I put at the top of the post it seems pikachus dash-run is pretty competitive. It surprised me and didnt surprise me, Ive been using dash to crouch a lot and always thought it was a good option, but didnt realize it was because pikas frame data was good here.
3) Lastly no matter what commitment pikachu makes on the ground (shielding, dashing, skid, etc.), he can always escape with jump-cancel quick attack.

"Diddy Kong" roll is appropriate since Diddy's roll is trivially longer (I like to call Pika's Nair the MK nair too, lol). It isnt game breaking, but what makes pikas better then other characters with similar rolls isnt just the roll but pikachus options out of roll. In particular, forward roll to reverse utilt is able to trap an opponent in their shield on top of covering a counter-roll (traditionally cited as a good option after being crossed up by a roll) due to its late forward hit, not to mention that utilt itself is a powerful combo starter.

Lastly I tested Sheik's ftilt on pikas shield, pika can drop shield to dtilt before her shield comes up. That means he can also bair her if she does the same to the back of his shield, and maybe also QA. Im actually surprised by this I was mostly testing to see if pika could QA away if his shield got ftilted.

It all adds up to a powerful ground game. Strong ground movement in his speed, low commitment, rolls, and QA; strong options out of his movement; and powerful punishes.

I also think we have a different view of QA's strengths. It's not about making the first move, its the check mate in a sense. Well, basically I think if youre relying on QA to start your offense, youre going to have a bad time for the reasons you mentioned. [THAT BEING SAID most people have a terrible sense for how to deal with QA in neutral and so we still see this move being abused in ways it shouldnt be.] Instead wait for or force an opponents commitment, then punish with QA. And as I mentioned earlier its also a tool of anti-commitment. Punishment and anti-commitment. The mere threat of it is important as well.

I can't fault you for thinking otherwise. Pikachu is strong offensive powerhouse yet few if anyone are trying to discover pikas nuances and traps because its inherently more difficult then camping with jolts (bad), spacing fairs and other SH aerials, and abusing unfamiliar players with QA. I may sound like a grumpy pikachu hermit saying this but players are too content with "how well can I abuse this character" rather then "how well I can use this character" and so instead of seeing pikas more complex strengths and strats we only get a visual of his abusive nonsense. Even ESAM before he quit understood this, for him after Final Battle I told him his smash 4 pika needed to rely significantly more on his grounded tools, and he said he was starting to understand that and had a lot of carry-over identity from Brawl. ESAM gave a great kick-start to pika's meta and at the time he represented the best we knew about pika, but in retrospect he was a primary offender in trying to abuse QA in neutral, never jump cancelled as he had tap jump off (you can see it in his footage as well), and had fair heavy SH centric game against most of the cast. We can tell from this alone that the character hasnt seen optimal play.

Not that I claim pikachu holds a monopoly on character nuance, part of the reason I hadnt bothered sharing info is because I feel frustrated with players who've jumped onto the simple and easy to abuse characters and strats without bothering to see what deeper aspects characters may have. I think its a pretty pervasive issue with the whole of the smash 4 metagame atm.

Not trying to keep it secret at this point just kind of lazy. Here's another cool thing.

As people know pikachu can drop from the ledge earlier the other characters. This also applies to get up options. More importantly, this also applies when you attempt to ledge trump. In essence you can always trump the ledge immediately after the opponent, and input your get up ledge option before your opponent. Even cooler, if your opponent does nothing they will be trumped. Basically, theres no reason for pikachu to NOT trump the ledge from his opponent and then do a quick get up option. If the opponent gets trumped, when the grab the ledge again they wont have invincibility.

Damn now I feel like a terrible pika player ( I mean I know I'm a terrible pika player but still)

 

[Terotrous]

For Greninja it's mainly that he doesn't mind Pikachu's low height as much, has more range on most of his moves (I think) and more immediate kill power and setups. Plus Hydro Pump can actually mess with Pikachu's recovery by sending him up and leaving him vulnerable to an aerial. Plus Greninja is not easy to edgeguard.

Pikachu does have an overall better frame data and can combo Greninja pretty well though, but the fact that he can struggle to nail kills makes so that Greninja could have his KO power enhanced by rage which can be really problematic if Greninja gets the stock lead. Quick Attack is still super annoying though.

At least I believe that's the reasoning.

My guess on the reasoning was that Greninja's disjointed usmash might shut down some quick attack shenanigans. Most of the characters on that list seem to have USmashes that usually win or trade with stuff that they could feasibly use as a "get off me you stupid rat" option.

Still though, I feel like Pika will probably win neutral vs most of those characters.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yoshi top 5 with Customs on? Explain please?

I just have trouble seeing him staying that high when so many people are getting huge buffs from customs and he's getting basically nothing. Do you put him as top 3 with customs off? Because Rosalina gains a ton, so I assume you had her below Yoshi before.

Unless it's some kind of crazy situation where while some characters get better, other characters get better tools against them, and Yoshi somehow squeaks by relatively untouched by it all.

I would actually report the exact same top 5 with customs off except probably reversing the positions of Sheik and Rosalina. In the long run I might even expect Rosalina to fall below Yoshi with customs off because seriously Diddy is just stupid with customs off, but I am not sure about that.

Rosalina gains and loses from customs. She gains a lot because the Diddy match-up becomes a lot less stupid. She loses a lot because a lot of otherwise easy match-ups become real match-ups. Overall she's probably a bit more viable with customs on since losing to Diddy is probably pretty horrible in customs off, but in customs on people are going to very routinely use not top 10 characters who get great anti-Rosalina tools in customs on (and even among top characters, Pikachu's Thunder Wave stuns Luma, Sheik has both Skimming Grenade and Piercing Needles that are bad for Luma in a few ways, and Hammer Spin Dash makes Sonic much harder for Rosalina to zone out while also letting his side-B transition to kills in some situations which is very huge in this match-up). Sonic and Sheik both get a few nice things, but neither gets a ton just a little juice to move closer to that silly monkey and tighten up top 5. Directly below Yoshi on my list you have Fox who is only that high in the first place because of Twisting Fox and his blaster customs and then Ness whose customs are no better than Yoshi's and then Mii Brawler who doesn't exist in customs off and then Pikachu whose core moveset I view to be worse than Yoshi's in the first place and who loses Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave if you turn customs off. I just don't see Yoshi's place to drop here; his core strengths are very good, his customs aren't as bad as the Yoshi mains are letting on (they aren't earth-shattering, but he has several useful options), and he's a well rounded character who isn't bothered by lower tiers getting better (I certainly can't think of a character and say "man, Yoshi can dominate that match-up without customs, but that custom just ruins Yoshi's day").

I do have to clarify an important point. The way I look at the game isn't "customs off and then add customs". It's "customs on and then try to kinda guess how taking customs away would affect things". It makes me look at things differently from a lot of people who do the reverse, and as far as I can tell, the higher end of the tier list doesn't change so much with customs on other than everyone who is not Diddy growing closer to Diddy (I actually think most people in this topic underrate Diddy, if such a thing is possible, character has way more potential than fishing for grabs). Customs mostly just make being top 10 matter a lot less as you start seeing the characters who gain a huge amount further down and the whole tier list compresses by my understanding, but then again, I try to look at how characters fare in general and not just against a few top characters so my assessment of customs off may be poor as I don't account for the centralizing effects of a few bad match-ups against critical characters as much since that's not nearly as important in customs on.

 

[Ridel]

I think Zelda is definitely underrated atm

I agree to an extent, I personally feel she is not great but is counted out way more than she should be. She has some devious set-ups and a tremendous amount of kill power make her a threat to lighter characters. My main problem with her is her lack of safe options and her mobility. Zelda feels like a really fragile tank to me just in way she feels when using her. I don't know I need to put more time into the character before I can give a final opinion.