Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Thoughts on Timber Counter? A lot of my friends have been saying it's broken. Do you think this is true or is it just a matter of not knowing how to deal with it? Where does Villager go on the tier list with customs?

 

[Nu~]

Thoughts on Timber Counter? A lot of my friends have been saying it's broken. Do you think this is true or is it just a matter of not knowing how to deal with it? Where does Villager go on the tier list with customs?

I think it's a cleverly made stage control tool. It's kind of like the trampoline in that it steals space from the opponent (although you can roll past the sprout, unlike the trampoline, and villager is unaffected by it unlike pac and his trampoline)
It really fits villager's gameplan and makes his stage control stronger (until I cover it with a hydrant :3 )

 

[Manta]

IHMO, Marth is too low (with or without customs), heavy blade's last hit has huge (like, Ike's fsmash attack huge) knock back, Dashing Assault->Dolphin jump makes for a great recovery and has a counter with good options.... (not sure how customs fit into the metagame but there's a variety of them so one of them must be good/decent. right?). sh -> fair/nair is a great spacer, fmash tipper can kill at like 70% with most characters, his up throw is very strong and he can juggle characters easily with u-air.

 

[Antonykun]

Thoughts on Timber Counter? A lot of my friends have been saying it's broken. Do you think this is true or is it just a matter of not knowing how to deal with it? Where does Villager go on the tier list with customs?

Timber Counter essentially makes Villagers good or even Matchups (and Sonic) even better but it does very little to answer for Villager's biggest issues.
TC doesn't help her against super Campers like MM or Sheik.
TC needs to be set up so it isn't always there for you to cover you from ground pressure.
TC does nothing against Aerial Approaches (WDK, Bouncing Fish, Aerial QA, ect)
TC means you won't be killing with the ax even if you water the tree because its FAR weaker.
Timber Counter's good, really good, but it's overhyped because its given to a character that doesn't gain nearly as much from it as say Sheik or Pika because of her poor ground speed and laggy ass grab (like can it at least be 11 frames plz T.T)

Extreme Balloon Trip on the other hand puts in work against Villager's bad matchups.
It's like Vanish lite on a character with an arguably better edgeguarding (I said arguably don't kill me @ Shaya ) You know how being edgeguarded is one of Villager's (many) weaknesses? Well so long for that! Even if you pop the balloons and Villager will still make it back!

It's TC AND EBT that makes Customs Villager a potentially good solo character (I'm still doubtful)

 

[Kofu]

Thoughts on Timber Counter? A lot of my friends have been saying it's broken. Do you think this is true or is it just a matter of not knowing how to deal with it? Where does Villager go on the tier list with customs?

Timber Counter I think has yet to be completely figured out. I think its biggest weakness is that Villager can't freely move it around, although the fact that the opponent can't move it as well is a bonus.

He has a few customs that are generally better, some that are fairly even with the defaults, and few that are bad except for a few niche uses. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of expeience using them.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Z droppable meteor key

Bruh
Teach me how to do that

 

[irokex13]

I don't like to think there's a bottom tier there, either way.
Captain Falcon is broken, hence Ganondorf is broken.
This is the logical times we live in.

Most of the cast fears Ganon (for every frame of reaction speed you "take away" from a player, I think you effectively double the fear necessary from 15 frames onwards). This is a heavily buffed version of Brawl Ganondorf without his weaknesses in recovery, suicide moves working against him and being cg'd to death by everyone chipping away at his exterior. When you get hit by an up smash at 60%, you die; I don't think people appreciate enough where Snake's up tilt now resides with twice it's kill power (and about half of it's end lag). There's so much respect one has to give to a Ganondorf shielding due to his extensively good array of punishment options that he kinda gets away with just walking in against most of the cast.

So we are at the point of overhyping Ganon? Geez, I never knew we would fall this far... His Up Smash is nowhere near comparable to Snake's Up Tilt. Wasn't that nonsense frame 6 and had an extremely obnoxious disjoint, while Ganon's does have less ending lag, but 21 frames of startup? And his options off the stage are pretty awful. His recovery is one of the worst in the game and if you outrange his side b, then you probably beat him off stage. For example, what can he do against Pit's fair off the stage? Robin's nair?

Also, who is truly threatened by this character? What top/high tier does this character beat with relying on them making mistakes? Because from what I've seen/experienced, he is not at the level of the characters around him. It's just kinda annoying to see characters overhyped time and time again with little evidence or results to show their actual strength. Meanwhile, characters that actually have results get ignored (Pit/Dark Pit for example).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He pretty much is a Monando Boy, good point. But I'm yet to be aware of Customs Ike existing outside the realms of this thread. Like, I'd probably find more custom charizard stuff to reference. Rating Ike through his normals and an assumption he's feasibly better seems fine. Just because he can do more doesn't mean he achieves more. There's been instantaneous impacts of customs for Villager, DK, Palutena and even WiiFit, but there's Ike fans previously boasting top 5 with customs with 0 apex attendance and 2-3 relatively quiet players otherwise.

Heh, blame the regions most of the Ikes are in. Most of them seemed to be fairly resistant to customs or don't stream things.

Surely that counts as proof as to how good Ike with customs is: any place with a half decent Ike doesn't want them on

 

[Nu~]

Bruh
Teach me how to do that

Lol. You have to do it at lower percentages though.

Charge up to the bell with freaky fruit, and time the fire of the on-fire hydrant so that it hits you in the middle of your charging animation for the freaky key. The key drops, you walk back to pick it up, and bam!
Z droppable, 10%, exceptional strength meteor smash

It's the best 2% damage you will ever take.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Even in a customs on environment Swordfighter is getting this bad wrap.

2-1-3-X is the kit to use. Unless someone has an argument for Slash Launcher.

 

[Cassio]

Sort of tangential, but I can see why people might assume pika doesnt look amazing on the ground. When you remove some very solid options he has naturally he seems weaker. The reason pikachu forces some opponents to the ground is because while he may lose options it hits certain other characters much worse.

Admittedly Ive been studying the metagame and doing my own tests, and been stubborn about releasing information until recently. I understand the existing arguments on shiek v pika it makes sense, but info like pikachu having a diddy kong roll or certain kill set-ups from dtilt, utilt, and u-throw kill percents are very relevant and Im pretty sure only known by a few people I leaked some info to.

 

[Antonykun]

Even in a customs on environment Swordfighter is getting this bad wrap.

2-1-3-X is the kit to use. Unless someone has an argument for Slash Launcher.

I always treated Swordfighters as "customs on" even in customs off. They're still pretty meh. Promising, but meh right now. but yeah 213X min weight is the truth, we're still trying to figure out the best height is somewhere between min height and 1/2 height)
@ Cassio Secret Pika information?
I would like to say I want in but... I'm sure I'm not worthy.

 

[Spirst]

Lol. You have to do it at lower percentages though.

Charge up to the bell with freaky fruit, and time the fire of the on-fire hydrant so that it hits you in the middle of your charging animation for the freaky key. The key drops, you walk back to pick it up, and bam!
Z droppable, 10%, exceptional strength meteor smash

It's the best 2% damage you will ever take.

Something easier you can do is charge up to the galaxian, plant an on-fire hydrant, and start charging. The fire will come out from above the hydrant and by the time it hits you, you'll have gotten to the key and it'll drop right in front of the hydrant for easy pickup. It's a lot more efficient than waiting for the bell timing.

Freaky key spike is also useful in that at higher percents, it can combo into things like nair.

 

[Nu~]

Something easier you can do is charge up to the galaxian, plant an on-fire hydrant, and start charging. The fire will come out from above the hydrant and by the time it hits you, you'll have gotten to the key and it'll drop right in front of the hydrant for easy pickup. It's a lot more efficient than waiting for the bell timing.

Freaky key spike is also useful in that at higher percents, it can combo into things like nair.

Thank goodness man. The timing for the transition between the bell and key was so annoying lol.

 

[thehard]

Lol. You have to do it at lower percentages though.

Charge up to the bell with freaky fruit, and time the fire of the on-fire hydrant so that it hits you in the middle of your charging animation for the freaky key. The key drops, you walk back to pick it up, and bam!
Z droppable, 10%, exceptional strength meteor smash

It's the best 2% damage you will ever take.

Can you throw the key at the edge of stages and airdodge to pick them up like with default Fruit? I don't have that much experience with Pac's customs

 

[Nu~]

Can you throw the key at the edge of stages and airdodge to pick them up like with default Fruit? I don't have that much experience with Pac's customs

Unfortunately no, because the freaky key doesn't fly outward like the normal key. It just hovers in front of you and acts as a big hitbox.
We had to get creative to find a way to pick this one up.

 

[Antonykun]

Unfortunately no, because the freaky key doesn't fly outward like the normal key. It just hovers in front of you and acts as a big hitbox.
We had to get creative to find a way to pick this one up.

Pac-man does attract creative people doesn't he.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-man does attract creative people doesn't he.

Boy does he!
It's also one reason why we probably have so few Pac-Mains...especially dedicated ones.

 

[FullMoon]

I want to be good with Pac-Man but I don't think I have the right mindset to play him.

 

[Nobie]

I always treated Swordfighters as "customs on" even in customs off. They're still pretty meh. Promising, but meh right now. but yeah 213X min weight is the truth, we're still trying to figure out the best height is somewhere between min height and 1/2 height)
@ Cassio Secret Pika information?
I would like to say I want in but... I'm sure I'm not worthy.

I wonder if Swordfighter is really stage-dependent. He has his best chance of KOing on stages where he can shark with up-airs, but in other situations...

I tried Swordfighter for a bit on ladder, and every time I threw out a forward smash I think I died a little inside. Obviously that's my own inexperience to an extent, but it feels like the most terrible f-smash there is.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Playing pacman to me feels like creating art with all the planning and being creative to me. I think he does very well with someone who is creative at every point of the game.

 

[Antonykun]

I wonder if Swordfighter is really stage-dependent. He has his best chance of KOing on stages where he can shark with up-airs, but in other situations...

I tried Swordfighter for a bit on ladder, and every time I threw out a forward smash I think I died a little inside. Obviously that's my own inexperience to an extent, but it feels like the most terrible f-smash there is.

At least it's not Brawlwrs F-smash. That moves Make's Swordfighter entire kit look good.

 

[Quickhero]

I want to be good with Pac-Man but I don't think I have the right mindset to play him.

My relationship with Meta Knight in a nutshell. I want to get good at him but all I can do is just spam tornado and u-tilt and get wrecked because I forget that I need skill to win as MK.

Yeah....

 

[NairWizard]

Instead of getting involved in the Pikachu argument (you guys know my views on this already), I'll say instead that ROB is almost definitely a top 10 character, regardless of customs. He may be large and susceptible to juggles, but he also has a KO throw, great grab range and grounded normals, decent projectile game (which forces most characters to come to him), and good overall mobility specs (he's only middle of the cast in terms of walk, run, and airspeed, but the fact that he's middle in all three makes him pretty good on average). He loses to Diddy pretty badly, but I don't think that any other matchups are really too bad for him.

 

[Antonykun]

Instead of getting involved in the Pikachu argument (you guys know my views on this already), I'll say instead that ROB is almost definitely a top 10 character, regardless of customs. He may be large and susceptible to juggles, but he also has a KO throw, great grab range and grounded normals, decent projectile game (which forces most characters to come to him), and good overall mobility specs (he's only middle of the cast in terms of walk, run, and airspeed, but the fact that he's middle in all three makes him pretty good on average). He loses to Diddy pretty badly, but I don't think that any other matchups are really too bad for him.

It seems both the ROB AND Villager threads agree Villager Shreks ROB.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

You know who I feel like when I try to play MK? Mii Brawler's Shotput ball. Guy is made of lead I swear and I just can't figure out how to do anything with him.

 

[NairWizard]

competitive guide to MK:

1) Stand menacingly at midrange, while using walking spacing and the occasional roll to coax your opponent into making a mistake
2) Dash attack or dash grab whenever that mistake is made
3) Capitalize on your opponent now being in the air

if opponent is using projectiles:
jump

if opponent stops using projectiles:
see step 1

Done, you are now a good MK.

 

[Nu~]

Playing pacman to me feels like creating art with all the planning and being creative to me. I think he does very well with someone who is creative at every point of the game.

It is so fun!
Nearly every match I have, I end up mixing up my tools and creating a different trap or trick to counter my situation.
It's going to be very hard to stop Pac-Man as the meta evolves, because his traps and techniques will only expand and become stronger as we explore the character more.

competitive guide to MK:

1) Stand menacingly at midrange, while using walking spacing and the occasional roll to coax your opponent into making a mistake
2) Dash attack or dash grab whenever that mistake is made
3) Capitalize on your opponent now being in the air

if opponent is using projectiles:
jump

if opponent stops using projectiles:
see step 1

Done, you are now a good MK.

This is what made me stop using him lol.

 

[NairWizard]

Well, his neutral is pretty one-dimensional. You can mix in perfect pivot d-tilts, and also use f-smash now and then (also pivot f-smash), but in general, his SH aerials are bad and his tilts aren't that useful. MK has room for creativity in his punishes and escapes, but not really in neutral (I mean, you can be creative with him in neutral in some ways; it's just generally not rewarding outside of KO percents).

 

[Kofu]

Instead of getting involved in the Pikachu argument (you guys know my views on this already), I'll say instead that ROB is almost definitely a top 10 character, regardless of customs. He may be large and susceptible to juggles, but he also has a KO throw, great grab range and grounded normals, decent projectile game (which forces most characters to come to him), and good overall mobility specs (he's only middle of the cast in terms of walk, run, and airspeed, but the fact that he's middle in all three makes him pretty good on average). He loses to Diddy pretty badly, but I don't think that any other matchups are really too bad for him.

ROB's grab range is horrible in this game, the opponent basically has to be on top of his base. Having a kill throw (second strongest outside of custom Shulk!) is pretty great, though.

I don't agree with him being a top-tier character, though. He lacks solid ground pokes and feels a little too linear. Plus the game's mechanics have overall hurt him rather than helped him.

Who would your current top 10 be, for reference?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Some things are ordered while others are not =) It's the biggest trap of all of my lists.
Bonkers Tier is a party and nearly everyone's invited.
Except bad characters.
Considering how highly I rate MK (I actually do), I think being in his tier is a pretty good sign of my confidence in their abilities
I've seen a bit of customs pac too and he's extremely dangerous. Could probably join bonkers tier with one high level main showing up~ I don't think increased reasons for Rosalina or Villagers to show up bode well for him though.



I would instantaneously place this character 2-3 tiers higher if her Up-B wasn't buggy/actually killed. There's just too many times that things happen that feel like you should've died for but just.. it didn't work? She feels like she's suffering 3DS Olimar disease.

Glad you liked it~

if her up b has zzs kill power it would be wonderfull.

 

[NairWizard]

ROB's grab range is horrible in this game, the opponent basically has to be on top of his base. Having a kill throw (second strongest outside of custom Shulk!) is pretty great, though.

I don't agree with him being a top-tier character, though. He lacks solid ground pokes and feels a little too linear. Plus the game's mechanics have overall hurt him rather than helped him.

Who would your current top 10 be, for reference?

What, really? His grab range feels fantastic to me. Maybe it's because I play short characters and his vertical grabbox is good. I'll take your word for it, but I'll have to test this as soon as I get back home (should next week).

Beware controversial opinions, but top 10 for me is (doesn't feature ROB, as my consideration for him was after I had made this):

Without customs, in order:



With customs, in order:

 

[Jams.]

Who does ROB actually beat in top tier though? In addition to Diddy Kong and Villager, most ROBs have agreed that Sheik also counters him pretty hard, and getting hard countered by the game's 2 best characters basically kills his chances of a top 10 placement IMO.

 

[Quickhero]

Wait, what the heck did Greninja gain that makes him top 10 worthy? At least with Ike I can see the amount of tools he has gained but with Greninja...what did he gain that suddenly makes him top 10? I haven't seen jack of custom Greninja's in tournaments either. (Same with Ike, but as I have stated earlier at least I can understand why kit-wise).

Also Mario's placement as #3 confuses me... it's understandable to me why he'd be near top 10, but top 3??? He really hasn't been shown to be exceptionally strong (atm) to the point where I would say he's stronger than Sonic, let alone Diddy.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait, what the heck did Greninja gain that makes him top 10 worthy? At least with Ike I can see the amount of tools he has gained but with Greninja...what did he gain that suddenly makes him top 10? I haven't seen jack of custom Greninja's in tournaments either. (Same with Ike, but as I have stated earlier at least I can understand why kit-wise).

Also Mario's placement as #3 confuses me... but it's understandable to me why he'd be like top 15. He really hasn't been shown to be exceptionally strong to the point where I would say he's stronger than Sonic, let alone Diddy.

His Shifting Shuriken custom makes the opponent go towards him when hit. It true comboes into pretty much all of Greninja's kill moves with proper spacing. It also has transcedent priority which means things like R.O.B's gyro and Bowser Jr.'s mechakoopas are completely ignored by it.

 

[NairWizard]

Who does ROB actually beat in top tier though? In addition to Diddy Kong and Villager, most ROBs have agreed that Sheik also counters him pretty hard, and getting hard countered by the game's 2 best characters basically kills his chances of a top 10 placement IMO.

My thoughts on ROB are based on the assumption that his grab range is actually good. If it's not as good as it looked like when I've been facing ROB (as Kofu suggested), then my experience is colored by the fact that I've been withholding for fear of getting grabbed in situations where I shouldn't have been. Not knowing something does make a character significantly harder to face, in many cases.

I feel confident in most of my other top 10 since I actually have tournament experience using most of them, but they are subject to change based on meta discoveries

Also Mario's placement as #3 confuses me... it's understandable to me why he'd be near top 10, but top 3??? He really hasn't been shown to be exceptionally strong (atm) to the point where I would say he's stronger than Sonic, let alone Diddy.

It's just about tournament consistency. Sonic has a rough time against some characters like Pikachu and maybe Yoshi (? I've heard mixed things here). Customs Mario has so many tools that it's hard to find a bad matchup for him (DK might be one). I'd honestly rather take a character into tournament who has no bad matchups (or very few) than a character who dominates many MUs but then gets countered in other ones. It's worth noting that my opinions come from a "who's the best solo main?" perspective, which most tier lists don't abide by. If you consider secondaries, and also weight by characters who are guaranteed to be good, then the top 10 shifts quite a bit.

Basically, your tier list will look different if you ask "Who has the best Diddy and Sheik MUs?" (Pikachu) instead of "Who has the most number of good MUs and the fewest number of bad MUs?" (Sheik) or "Who dominates the most in most matchups, despite losing a few?" (Diddy)

 

[Kofu]

What, really? His grab range feels fantastic to me. Maybe it's because I play short characters and his vertical grabbox is good. I'll take your word for it, but I'll have to test this as soon as I get back home (should next week).

Beware controversial opinions, but top 10 for me is (doesn't feature ROB, as my consideration for him was after I had made this):

Without customs, in order:



With customs, in order:

I use ROB a decent amount and his grab range feels pretty poor toe. Then again, I'm not the greatest at getting grabs in general .

All I know is that most of my shieldgrabs as ROB miss. That said, a decent number of my KOs are from UThrow.

One more note about ROB: his pivot FSmash is great thanks to the range it possesses. It's weak far away but it does keep people at bay.

I agree with Mega Man in top ten, btw.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Pikachu, whatever we think of his core power, is not hurt at all by customs. Heavy Skull Bash is a really nice upgrade, and the match-up by match-up choice of Thunder Wave is pretty awesome. I actually disagree with those lists on several points, but I can't see Pikachu as #2 without customs and "not on the top 10 list" with customs.

For reference, my top 10 would probably be, of course customs and with reflection from what I've seen over the past good while since I've posted any kind of a list (this is in order)...



I feel like top 10 is very far from the limit of this game's viability; this leaves out tons of good characters. It feels more like "a few characters seem pretty bad but they're exceptions to the rule of almost everyone being viable" right now; that might change as the meta develops but none of the other smash games looked anywhere near this rosy this early in their lifespan. I would never tier a character primarily for Diddy/Sheik match-ups since I feel Diddy/Sheik are a small part of what this game's about since they're only two characters and such a huge number of characters are good enough for serious people to use.

 

[Shaya]

So we are at the point of overhyping Ganon? Geez, I never knew we would fall this far... His Up Smash is nowhere near comparable to Snake's Up Tilt. Wasn't that nonsense frame 6 and had an extremely obnoxious disjoint, while Ganon's does have less ending lag, but 21 frames of startup? And his options off the stage are pretty awful. His recovery is one of the worst in the game and if you outrange his side b, then you probably beat him off stage. For example, what can he do against Pit's fair off the stage? Robin's nair?

Also, who is truly threatened by this character? What top/high tier does this character beat with relying on them making mistakes? Because from what I've seen/experienced, he is not at the level of the characters around him. It's just kinda annoying to see characters overhyped time and time again with little evidence or results to show their actual strength. Meanwhile, characters that actually have results get ignored (Pit/Dark Pit for example).

Everyone loses to top tiers. And Pits are great. But yes the 2x as powerful and 2x as little endlag must be compensated by 3x the start up~ (although obnoxious hitboxes still-a-go).
At the least he doesn't get naired out of his up-b, doesn't get automatically edge hogged for stocks otherwise, wins if you get side-b'd.
I would sparingly use the notion of Ganon punishing mistakes as much as he takes a calculated choice based on stage position and the rewards/risk work out pretty well.
If I was to order that grouping he'd be at the end.
It's generally easy for me to rate Ganon higher than a lot of characters just by comparing their mid-range options.

Sort of tangential, but I can see why people might assume pika doesnt look amazing on the ground. When you remove some very solid options he has naturally he seems weaker. The reason pikachu forces some opponents to the ground is because while he may lose options it hits certain other characters much worse.

Admittedly Ive been studying the metagame and doing my own tests, and been stubborn about releasing information until recently. I understand the existing arguments on shiek v pika it makes sense, but info like pikachu having a diddy kong roll or certain kill set-ups from dtilt, utilt, and u-throw kill percents are very relevant and Im pretty sure only known by a few people I leaked some info to.

You've given me a lot of information in the past~ And I do put in time playing with the character as well as having a fair amount of in-house experience with two solid Pikachu mains, plus a brief ESAM interlude.


Sheik likely has the fastest dash to run in the game (usually referred to as dash to shield, I think this is probably more accurate a term considering where the meta will go with pivots/other actions). Being able to move, B and have all options is very very very good; I would kill for this single spec on just about every character. Sheik's walk is fantastic and her forward tilt is extremely good; not reasonable to be considered punishable by any defensive actions (including all of pika's), it's setting her up for everything she wants to do, forever. Also nice perspective transition, instead of it being diddy having pikachu X, it's the other way around =). I wouldn't really rate diddy roll as game breaking beyond any other characters good rolls (27 frame rolls are all there for the high/top tiers).
And Quick Attack makes everything better, but how much better I'm not sure of yet, I think it makes his abusive match ups a lot more frustrating than they need to be (not being able to punish an up-b into your face back), but from there on it's just "well is pika's everything else that good?" Does he actually truly force those situations upon other people in a way that reaction or the opposing character's tools have no distinctive answers for? A fast OoS aerial can result in Pika's destruction maybe not on reaction to Quick Attack but from intuition and there lies the question about whether you can throw a list of set ups we can all envision ourselves as impossible to deal with? IF this were the case, we'd be seeing a lot more Pikachu.

Also I would put Sheik's jab as one of the best in the cast.

 

[FullMoon]

Just for reference, here's a list of things Greninja can do with Shifting Shuriken:

SS -> Up-Smash (at higher %s for the sweet-spot)

SS -> Up-Tilt -> Up-Air

SS -> Shadow Sneak

SS -> F-Air

Do note that all four of those are kill-combos, though the Up-Tilt one is avoidable but is still a way to get an opponent above you for juggles. Even then, at lower percentages Greninja can do the following to rack up damage:

SS -> F-Smash

SS -> Dash Attack -> F-Air

SS - > D-Tilt

SS -> Dash Grab (not sure if standing grab works because of the start-up)

All of this coming from a projectile with transcendent priority which, while slower than regular shuriken, is still decently fast and has the same range and start-up as an uncharged shuriken. With shurikens Greninja can get guaranteed kills with very little, if any, risk. The character that takes the longest to die to SS -> Up-Smash in Final Destination is Dedede at 115% and the earliest is 68% on Jigglypuff .

Shifting Shuriken is not only good for killing, it also is great for setting damage combos and juggles that allow Greninja to rack up damage very quickly out of just a projectile. Greninja pretty much becomes a combo machine with this custom.

I'd imagine Shifting Shuriken would make R.O.B's MU against Greninja a complete and total hell because R.O.B is already very prone to being juggled with not very good ways of making it back to the ground safely. The main thing he had going for him is that Greninja was forced to approach, the one thing he can't do very well, because of the gyros blocking out shurikens. Now Shifting Shuriken will just ignore the gyro and hit R.O.B anyway, which means he's going to get combo'd even harder.

Oh, and it's good for edgeguarding too, an opponent hit offstage by the shuriken is going to fly right into an Up-Smash, F-Smash or F-Air depending on % and how close they were to the stage when hit.

This custom is very, very silly. It's the only really notable custom Greninja has but dear god does it make an impact. If a custom Greninja manages to counterpick Halberd, some MUs become so one-sided it's not even funny.