Character Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Pika getting Dedede off stage is ugly and I believe Up-B hits Gordos without trading? Banking it all on a rage down tilt I'd say.

But I believe Lycan's pocket dedede is up in wins (as is his Doc?) against Zee's Pikachu. Take that as you will.

His...Doc? That's pretty cool! I'll have to keep that in mind for MU practice, any idea what he normally does with Doc vs. Pika?

 

[Yikarur]

It was Apex Rule where you were forced to use the 1111 set for all the Miis. And it continue to regional tournaments and other tournaments until recently.
Default Mii Brawler (the 1111 set) is considered one of the worst characters. This is coming from Dapuffster - Teh Mii Brawler himself. He dropped Apex because they didn't allow the 2222 set. That how bad Default Mii Brawler was in his eyes.

Poor Dapuffster. Thats really discriminating. Miis should be allowed in any fashion. There is no logical argument in restricting their moveset.
Poor Mii Mains :/
Why not putting effort in convincing everyone how it should be?
I really hate that Apex Mii Rule. It's stupid and not well-though-out

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

Gales strike has way too much start-up and end lag to be thrown out.
Airborne Assault is a recovery, all I need either of them to be because frankly they're both poor on the ground and Chakram isn't being run with Shuriken. Blade counter doesn't really offer you much, its still decent given what it is but its not offering you something credible you can't get elsewhere.

How I look at his specials are

Projectiles: Gale, Shuriken, Chakram,
Horizontal gap closers: Airborne, Power Thrust, Slash Launcher
Recovery: All 3 Up specials
Close range defensive option: Blade counter, Neutral 3, Reversal Slash. Stone Scabbard and grounded Hero spin might fall in here.

Gale's start up is ridiculous, its silly to the point I need them further away from me then if I'm using Chakram or Shuriken to be safe. If they're far away from me it does next to nothing. The start-up is so huge they're unlikely to touch it and the end lag is high enough that I can't hope for any momentum off of it. Does it eat projectiles? Yeah quite a few, doesn't put me in a better place however again because of its lag, and I can be shot between shots.
Or put it another way, who is Gale strike helping me against specifically and are those characters prevalent enough for me to prioritize it? You don't want to give Samus, Lucario, Gunner or any of the like free charges so you aren't going to sit their spamming the lag bot. Sonic, Falcon, Mac, Shulk, Paletuna, Fox, ZSS are going to catch you during start-up/endlag or shrug it off as irrelevant because it is. If you think Airborne assault is predictable, Gale strike is a 7 day forecast. I am not impressed by it at all. Why should I really take this over Shuriken when Shuriken is far better disruption and provides quick coverage with far less commitment. I'm not trying to get Dash-grabbed from the otherside of the stage but Gale is slow enough for that to actually happen.

Shuriken and Chakram are both solid, Chakrams only problem is that Gale strike and Neutral 3 don't hold their weight. Chakram gets forced out just because running it with shuriken is redundant.

Airborne isn't really something you use on stage from the beginning and as far as SDing go, if anyones really going to invest their time in Sword Fighter they will learn their positioning. You don't invest into Little Mac or Charizard and not become cognizant of when Flare Blitz or haymaker is a potential suicide. Airborne Assault does fair well as a Horizontal recovery, and I'll gladly slot it for that given my other options. Slash Launcher can be run on the ground and works horizontally. Like I said before you basically take AA unless theres an argument for Slash because Shuriken+Chakram is sub-optimal. I see SL's validity, but I'd prioritize AA myself.

Neutral 3 would be an option if the hits just bloody linked together, its faster then his jab (but what isn't), and its what 16% if everything connects? A shame, because I don't feel a problem connecting with it, but then they fall/jump out and its a bad situation.

Blade Counter seems to have no Knockback and maybe its just playing shulk too much but it isn't a rewarding counter at all, it can help you land in a pinch, but so can Power Thrust. I wont call it a bad option yet, simply an uninteresting one with lackluster rewards.

I wouldn't look for SF to a poor mans *anything* and I think anyone playing him shouldn't look for that anyways. When restricted to 1111, you've got to go "Why am I using him instead of X,Y and Z?" with the rest of the set you know its "because X, Y and Z don't have these options bundled together or at all".
He has good aerials, a valid Dtilt, a valid Dsmash, shuriken is alright coverage, reversal slash/Power thrust are solid choices that add more option coverage and hero's spin isn't a slouch.


Ah whatever I'll go bite the Bullet and run Swordfighter on some guys next week.

Fair enough, you brought a good point as to why you don't use Gale Strike, but that still doesn't justify the poor reach of Shuriken of Light (as opposed to most projectiles that cover at least 1/2 of the stage whereas SoL only does 1/4) and it barely disrupts at all. I've tried pulling off SoL and I've noticed that the opponent has way easier time shrugging it off than a close range Gale Strike that gives you the opportunity to do an Up-Air.

Blade Counter possesses a counter damage multiplier of approx. 1.25 with a decent enough speed to pull it off as opposed to Shulk that's slower in his counter attack (and you're likelier to miss Shulk's Vision attack than Blade Counter). Sure, it's nothing special to people who are already sporting Marth and such, but it's viable. I might go for Power Thrust, but I'm afraid that a lack of counter-game is counterintuitive (pun intended) in regards to my playstyle.

I'm just referring to it as a "poorman's fusion dance" because I'm describing my set in a self-deprecating manner. That said, I do treat my Mii Swordfighter as a composite character because while it has its own *unique attacks* it still possesses moves based off already-established Smash characters.

Well, the more power to you mate. Have fun running Swordfighter

Poor Dapuffster. Thats really discriminating. Miis should be allowed in any fashion. There is no logical argument in restricting their moveset.
Poor Mii Mains :/
Why not putting effort in convincing everyone how it should be?
I really hate that Apex Mii Rule. It's stupid and not well-though-out

What was the main argument for it again? Something something "why can Mii Fighters go with customs but other characters not" ?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I mean shuriken and power thrust alone tie his neutral game together so well.

If Marth had a projectile. I mean he doesn't need one since he's quick, but imagine shooting a quick beam of light from Falchion and being able to chase after it.

muhahahaha

iv been advocating power thrust for a while over reflector but yeah i personally think if marth got somthing like power thrust as a down b instead would be pretty awsome.

 

[Makorel]

I mean shuriken and power thrust alone tie his neutral game together so well.

If Marth had a projectile. I mean he doesn't need one since he's quick, but imagine shooting a quick beam of light from Falchion and being able to chase after it.

muhahahaha

That's called Guiding Bow.

 

[Shaya]

His...Doc? That's pretty cool! I'll have to keep that in mind for MU practice, any idea what he normally does with Doc vs. Pika?

None at all (it may be somewhere in a DVDA archive, or perhaps a PSG one), just going by the result discussion people have in Vegas.
They have two Doc players on their PR though, no Diddys (bar Lycan) but 500 Sonics.

 

[Kofu]

Gravity Grenade is absolutely silly in doubles.

That is all.

 

[Antonykun]

I mean shuriken and power thrust alone tie his neutral game together so well.

If Marth had a projectile. I mean he doesn't need one since he's quick, but imagine shooting a quick beam of light from Falchion and being able to chase after it.

muhahahaha

Imma Add Reversal Slash possibly against certainprojectile users like Greninja or Megaman

 

[Jaxas]

Gravity Grenade is absolutely silly in doubles.

That is all.

Oooh? Color me interested; how so specifically?

 

[Djent]

I'm curious to hear your reasoning WRT these three. I disagree on DK and Zelda and actually strongly agree w/ Peach (and am surprised no one ever brings her up).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sigh. Peach does not get exciting customs. I almost thinks she gets waaay too overshadowed with them included. Everyone gets all these crazy powers and Peach just gets... slower floaty turnips...

Light Parasol is a way better move than it seems at first; it can gain a truly absurd amount of distance if used correctly. Also, while all three versions of Toad are not quality moves, I think it's mostly evident that default is the worst of the three by far. And yeah, Flying Peach Bomber is great; I'm legitimately unsure why you would ever not use it.

I see Peach as having a pretty decent set of customs. She isn't one of the characters who gets the world from customs, but she has quite a few solid moves that help her out in slots 2 and 3 of her move list. Peach is also really underrated in this game; she's Brawl Peach who can actually kill, and that is really a terrifying thing.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think she can do with light parasol and her default but her default one covers a nice amount of distance imo. I do agree with flying bomber. Its great and has virtually no landing lag when platforms are present. Default toad and sleep toad are the best two. I find that grumpy toad is terrible. It only deals 8 damage and because of the range its not a good area to use him.

 

[Nobie]

In regards to Swordfighter's Power Thrust, I've noticed that it has a sweetspot that enables it to be a kill move at higher percentages but that it's kind of odd in terms of positioning, especially when compared to its closest equivalent, Falcon Kick.

Falcon Kick starts off strong and weakens as it travels. If you hit with the beginning of Falcon Kick, it's more likely to KO, but it doesn't matter where Captain Falcon is as long as you hit the opponent during start-up.

Not so with Power Thrust. If you stand too close, you go straight through and deal no damage. If you stand a bit further, you'll hit the opponent but not for a lot. If you stand too far away though, you also don't get maximum knockback on the move. Instead, you have to be roughly 2 to 2.5 Swordfighter-widths away from the opponent to actually get Power Thrust to KO. It's so bizarrely precise.

 

[deepseadiva]

Light Parasol is a way better move than it seems at first; it can gain a truly absurd amount of distance if used correctly. Also, while all three versions of Toad are not quality moves, I think it's mostly evident that default is the worst of the three by far. And yeah, Flying Peach Bomber is great; I'm legitimately unsure why you would ever not use it.

I see Peach as having a pretty decent set of customs. She isn't one of the characters who gets the world from customs, but she has quite a few solid moves that help her out in slots 2 and 3 of her move list. Peach is also really underrated in this game; she's Brawl Peach who can actually kill, and that is really a terrifying thing.

Her notable customs are indeed Light Parasol, Flying Bomber, the floaty turnips, and upgraded Toad variations. She's definitely optimized by them, but she doesn't particularly standout in the roster when customs are turned on, when suddenly 10+ characters become demi-high-tiers.

I would not call her "Brawl Peach + kill moves" though. She lost the auto cancelling mechanics to her fair and jabs, so she handles less safely. It's a strong base character though. Really strong.

Dash Attack kills at 120. @__________@

I find that grumpy toad is terrible. It only deals 8 damage and because of the range its not a good area to use him.

Grumpy Toad reminds me so much of Rosalina's default side B. A dumb little spray bottle move that doesn't do much but pester.

Gravity Grenade is absolutely silly in doubles.

That is all.

Beyond excited for customs-on doubles. So many crazy combinations.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm curious to hear your reasoning WRT these three. I disagree on DK and Zelda and actually strongly agree w/ Peach (and am surprised no one ever brings her up).

QA is basically not an option against zelda as a apprach since naryus love out right beats it.

 

[Kofu]

Oooh? Color me interested; how so specifically?

It was my first time playing against it last night, so it may or may not be DI-able, but getting hit with Gravity Grenade basically sets you up to be sweetspotted by Sheik's USmash. In singles, that's scary enough, but there you only have to worry about Sheik. In doubles, you have a second foe to contend with, and given the right circumstances, you could very well get hit by a stray Gravity Grenade and get unexpectedly killed.

For those not in the know, it's Sheik's side-b 3(?) which sends those hit toward her. It has a much smaller blast radius than the default, though.

I think Abyss also has doubles potential.

 

[andimidna]

Is there a list of what's confirmed off a gravity grenade?
cause honestly if a sheik can kill- what can't it do lol
I've been thinking she gets an edge over diddy in customs because of this move but I wouldn't know what's true and what's just a follow up (which wouldn't be bad either)

 

[Teshie U]

Is there a list of what's confirmed off a gravity grenade?
cause honestly if a sheik can kill- what can't it do lol
I've been thinking she gets an edge over diddy in customs because of this move but I wouldn't know what's true and what's just a follow up (which wouldn't be bad either)

It pulls people literally right into sweetspot upsmash. Thats probably the best possible thing an any percent, but any aerial is possible too.

 

[FullMoon]

I think I finally found my secondary and that one is . He's working very well for me right but I do wonder, how are his MUs with the characters that Greninja has trouble with (Sheik, Fox, Sonic and MK)?

 

[Ffamran]

Why do most tiers have Ike so low? I mean, seriously, he can combo and he's a heavyweight like Ganondorf! His combo ability is freaking absurd! @ san. , your Ike is freaking amazing. I mean even though it's online, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siN2YWr_4ZI.

 

[Antonykun]

Why do most tiers have Ike so low? I mean, seriously, he can combo and he's a heavyweight like Ganondorf! His combo ability is freaking absurd! @ san. , your Ike is freaking amazing. I mean even though it's online, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siN2YWr_4ZI.

I now want to get bodied by san
also did you know u-tilt grab down throw u-air is a combo for Swordfighter? Deals like 25-27%

 

[Sinister Slush]

I could probably budge on Mega, DK, Villager, Yoshi (+GreenMan) but not really seeing a solid avenue for Pikachu to argue winning match ups against the rest more than 55:45.

Prime and I play regularly and honestly think it's -1 Yoshi. What makes you think this MU is +1 Yoshi.

 

[Shaya]

Prime and I play regularly and honestly think it's -1 Yoshi. What makes you think this MU is +1 Yoshi.

You may have misread what I said (at least in terms of me not being overtly confident in Yoshi + beating things 55:45 at best), but if an advantage was to be given to Yoshi, it would be neutral air (and a few other things of noteworthy priority [I know you don't like dair, but it's so nasty]) and his weight. Pikachu does a lot to negate general use of Eggs, so I could see why it's a slight favour for him. Can Pikachu jump/AD out of jab->up smash?

(I was able to see Sky vs Nakat [although only a recent pick up], Shimitake and Norcal's Warren [not sure of his tag] and generally don't recall much that Yoshi has issues with, getting disgustingly early kills with up air/up smash compensates for a lot of Pika's good strings).

 

[Radical Larry]

The main reasons Ike is so low:

-Yes, he has combo ability, but not much. He's still a heavy hitter, so he's prone to breaking combos by accident.
-He's still among the slower attackers in the game, and by comparison, Ganondorf is faster with his attack speed than Ike.
-If he's sent far off the stage at a more horizontal angle, it's a guaranteed KO, especially with a semi-spike, due to his poor recovery.
-Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't noticed D-Tilt being a meteor. It's either I'm missing it or something, because I don't notice it.
-His edge-guarding game is among the bad (not poor, just bad).
-He's VERY predictable and easy to read.
-Second most predictable recovery in the game (my personal opinion since I always hit his S-Spec with any attack).

But those are the things that I think hold Ike back honestly, but when people start finding out ways to make him better, I'll surely see it. Just pointing out his flaws.

 

[san.]

Ike is like sword Falcon, but slower and more horizontally focused. While he can combo off of a lot of his kit, he's susceptible to being comboed himself and is weak against low percent landing traps. He's only helped by air dodge to bair being so good if he's in a bad situation.

I think these boards are favorable towards Ike being somewhere in that middle area. Many other places have him low/bottom 10.

 

[Antonykun]

The main reasons Ike is so low:

-Yes, he has combo ability, but not much. He's still a heavy hitter, so he's prone to breaking combos by accident.
-He's still among the slower attackers in the game, and by comparison, Ganondorf is faster with his attack speed than Ike.
-If he's sent far off the stage at a more horizontal angle, it's a guaranteed KO, especially with a semi-spike, due to his poor recovery.
-Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't noticed D-Tilt being a meteor. It's either I'm missing it or something, because I don't notice it.
-His edge-guarding game is among the bad (not poor, just bad).
-He's VERY predictable and easy to read.
-Second most predictable recovery in the game (my personal opinion since I always hit his S-Spec with any attack).

But those are the things that I think hold Ike back honestly, but when people start finding out ways to make him better, I'll surely see it. Just pointing out his flaws.

For the record if ganon or bowser had ike's "not much" combos, we'll say they have a good combo game.
Also he's slow but he has lots of range off the Ragnell.

Ike is like sword Falcon, but slower and more horizontally focused. While he can combo off of a lot of his kit, he's susceptible to being comboed himself and is weak against low percent landing traps. He's only helped by air dodge to bair being so good if he's in a bad situation.

I think these boards are favorable towards Ike being somewhere in that middle area. Many other places have him low/bottom 10.

Soooo heavies come in two flavors? Great disadvantage but meh to bad advantage or amazing advantage and terrible terrible terrible disadvantage?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Soooo heavies come in two flavors? Great disadvantage but meh to bad advantage or amazing advantage and terrible terrible terrible disadvantage?

Yeah

 

[san.]

Ike is bad in disadvantage until he has enough time to throw out Nair/fair that can cover his landings, then it's just mediocre. Bair can trade with some other moves even from the front surprisingly.

4 frames: air dodge
7 frames: well timed bair
~9 frames: counter
12 frames: fair
13 frames: Nair
~14 frames: Side B

Followups under 12 frames requires a read to escape, while there are enough options to space given enough room. Nair's landing lag increase to 15 frames makes it easier to bait.

I don't think a smash 4 Ike has been developed yet, even with simple things such as aerials halting your fastfall, since his strengths and weaknesses from Brawl have compacted.

 

[Meru.]

Sigh. Peach does not get exciting customs. I almost thinks she gets waaay too overshadowed with them included. Everyone gets all these crazy powers and Peach just gets... slower floaty turnips...

Flying Bomber is pretty awesome because it gets stronger, is usable in combos and has no landing lag (and thus no lag if you land on a platform).

Other than that her customs aren't looking super indeed... I want to try out her customs UpB though.

 

[Kofu]

Flying Bomber is pretty awesome because it gets stronger, is usable in combos and has no landing lag (and thus no lag if you land on a platform).

Other than that her customs aren't looking super indeed... I want to try out her customs UpB though.

I'm not a Peach player (though I may want to try her out) but I wasn't real impressed by her Up-B customs. The default is just such a good move; it can kill, it protects her almost completely from the top, and it carries her a ridiculously far horizontal distance. I'm interested to hear what the "correct" way to use Light Parasol is from @ Amazing Ampharos since it feels like a downgrade to me. I guess Parasol High Jump can be used for deep edgeguards which is nice given Peach's powerful aerials, so that's something.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Flying Bomber is pretty awesome because it gets stronger, is usable in combos and has no landing lag (and thus no lag if you land on a platform).

Other than that her customs aren't looking super indeed... I want to try out her customs UpB though.

She has a custom where she has to keep using her up b to go up. It actually goes the highest but it still seems like horrid up b to me.

 

[Radical Larry]

She has a custom where she has to keep using her up b to go up. It actually goes the highest but it still seems like horrid up b to me.

That thing isn't bad, actually...it gives you extra jumps, but...that's its benefit...???
Okay, I honestly don't see how it's that good besides recovery.

Peach's Up B has always been a bad move (unless used on Jigglypuff) with mediocre damage and a recovery that can be easily gimped and hit back. Of course, to counter that, it lasts until Peach either lands or gets KO'd while using it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You may have misread what I said (at least in terms of me not being overtly confident in Yoshi + beating things 55:45 at best), but if an advantage was to be given to Yoshi, it would be neutral air (and a few other things of noteworthy priority [I know you don't like dair, but it's so nasty]) and his weight. Pikachu does a lot to negate general use of Eggs, so I could see why it's a slight favour for him. Can Pikachu jump/AD out of jab->up smash?

(I was able to see Sky vs Nakat [although only a recent pick up], Shimitake and Norcal's Warren [not sure of his tag] and generally don't recall much that Yoshi has issues with, getting disgustingly early kills with up air/up smash compensates for a lot of Pika's good strings).

Dunno if sky is the best example when amongst Yoshi mains lol
Even if there's not many to point too when looking for high level play anyways (not even japanese), but main issue with Pika that everyone has trouble with is the fact he's too small to hit or most moves miss him because QA or bouncing off the ground so even missing dtilts/smashes.

Neither side has reliable kill setups so maybe it could be 50/50 cause we can't hit Pika while Pika can't kill. Jab to Usmash isn't as reliable as you make it out to be either, but not sure if pika can Jump AD or what right now.

 

[deepseadiva]

The better recovering Up B for Peach, and this applies to all characters with an upgraded recovery custom, is that it translates to a better edge guarding game like @ Kofu mentioned.

 

[Spazzy_D]

So, I've known for a while that Shulk could, in theory, cancel out the lag on all his aerials and air dodges using the following technique:

When I saw this video posted in the Shulk social thread I realized how effective of a tool it actually was:

I'm not the sharpest person when it comes to competitive Smash, but it seems super useful. Do you guys think this will effect his viability in a noticeable way?

 

[Pazzo.]

So, I've known for a while that Shulk could, in theory, cancel out the lag on all his aerials and air dodges using the following technique:

When I saw this video posted in the Shulk social thread I realized how effective of a tool it actually was:

I'm not the sharpest person when it comes to competitive Smash, but it seems super useful. Do you guys think this will effect his viability in a noticeable way?

Holy cow, that was smooth..

I sort of reminds me of a timed L-Cancel. This could be big if used properly.

 

[Terotrous]

Holy cow, that was smooth..

I sort of reminds me of a timed L-Cancel. This could be big if used properly.

You do basically have to announce you're doing it ahead of time, though, so it's fairly predictable.

 

[Berserker.]

It's predictable but even if you try to immediately punish it, you won't even hit him

 

[Pazzo.]

It looks pretty hard to punish.

Especially since you can throw out whatever you want once you land.

 

[Terotrous]

It's predictable but even if you try to immediately punish it, you won't even hit him

Well yeah, that's what it means for something to be lagless. The goal isn't to punish it, it's just to avoid damage. He can't do it that often due to the way the Monado Cooldowns work.

If I saw it coming I'd just run backwards, assuming I wasn't in the corner. If I was cornered I'd probably either grab ledge or shield.

Alternatively you could jump and challenge him in the air instead, though that's a bit riskier.