Are you happy that Dark Pit made it in?

[LordVacation]

He is literally just a color change with slightly modified animations and knockback angles. As someone who doesn't like clones, I say no. I mean, if it was going to otherwise be an empty space then fine, he can stay, it makes no difference to me. It still doesn't change the fact that he is a poor excuse for a character. If dark pit is replacing a character that would have been on the roster then give that trash clone the boot.

To be completely honest, the full roster disgusted me. We gained shulk and bowser jr. then a ton of clones nobody wanted.
Want mewtwo? Here have dr. mario.
Want a much deserved DK rep? Have a KI clone.
Want clones that actually play differently like wolf and lucas? lol nope.

This isn't even trolling anymore. This is just flat out bad judgement.

Yeah, dude.
Pretty much.

There's really no excuse for it anymore...
We shouldn't be gaining more and more clones as the series progresses.
If he didn't want to change Ganon's moveset for dome silly reason, k whatever.
But our Melee rep is Dr.Mario!? No Mewtwo to be seen!?
Which.. fine whatever.. but you take out Ice Climbers...?
Top it off with another Marth clone and DARK PIT... just spit in my face.

Essentially, including clones and Miis there is what? 51 characters?
How do you go from 12 > 25 > 39 > 51? That's not a natural progression to me but idk... whatever...

 

[LancerStaff]

Empty space/Alt Costume or Clone that somebody could be happy with, somewhere.

So you actually want less content? Just imagine...

"PotD! We could of added fan-favorites like Lucina and Dr. Mario, but some people hate clones and curse my existence if I put them in, so I'll just spoil everybody's fun and make them costumes instead."

"PotD! We could of added fan-favorites like Ridley and Issac, but some people somewhere hates their guts so I just won't put them in. Enjoy your trophies!"

"PotD! I've decided to cancel SSB entirely because some people hate all the characters. Just play your old SSBs for the rest of time, but remember people hate those characters too."

Yeah, not adding characters because some people don't want them is a totally good idea...

He is literally just a color change with slightly modified animations and knockback angles. As someone who doesn't like clones, I say no. I mean, if it was going to otherwise be an empty space then fine, he can stay, it makes no difference to me. It still doesn't change the fact that he is a poor excuse for a character. If dark pit is replacing a character that would have been on the roster then give that trash clone the boot.

To be completely honest, the full roster disgusted me. We gained shulk and bowser jr. then a ton of clones nobody wanted.
Want mewtwo? Here have dr. mario.
Want a much deserved DK rep? Have a KI clone.
Want clones that actually play differently like wolf and lucas? lol nope.

This isn't even trolling anymore. This is just flat out bad judgement.

Uh yeah, people wanted them. Especially over empty space.

Mewtwo? Completely Gamefreak's decision.
DK? One villain that hasn't been a part of the series for years, and a character that Sakurai wasn't aware was back into the cannon again until it was too late. That, and the average person sees Mario/DK/Wario/Yoshi as one big series with a few different icons. Rosalina and Jr. are legitimately more popular and well-known characters.
Not enough time, and the old ones both had controversy surrounding then. Wolf had it on both sides, while Lucas had it hard in Japan from fans of his own game who hated Mother 3, a legitimate base-breaker. Ness also took Lucas's hexagonal PK stuff for the extra reach thing, too.

There's real reasons why these clones got in over other characters, and you can't deny it.

 

[Wintropy]

Empty space/Alt Costume or Clone that somebody could be happy with, somewhere.

I know a lot of people that are going to main Dark Pit and have wanted him for a long, long time.

Personal bias =/= rational judgement. If we're going to criticse Sakurai for being biased towards his own creations, maybe we ought to take into account the reasons why we dislike those choices to begin with.

EDIT: This entire argument is just plain ugly. Rather than flinging mud at each-other and lambasting other series, why don't we just appreciate what we have?

If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple as.

 

[LordVacation]

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I said.
Way to take something out on context to the extreme.

Why would I be against the inclusion of new characters like Ridley or Isaac? Don't act stupid to get your point across.

What I said was Dark Pit was a costume and is now a character, that is COMPLETELY different from a new character with a new move set.

Don't get upset because somebody has a different opinion from yours, just answering the topic at hand friend

 

[LordVacation]

I know a lot of people that are going to main Dark Pit and have wanted him for a long, long time.

Personal bias =/= rational judgement. If we're going to criticse Sakurai for being biased towards his own creations, maybe we ought to take into account the reasons why we dislike those choices to begin with.

EDIT: This entire argument is just plain ugly. Rather than flinging mud at each-other and lambasting other series, why don't we just appreciate what we have?

If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple as.

I'm not sure where anyone is getting the impression that I don't like this game or I don't want to play this game
I WANT this game to be good, that's why the inclusion of clones is troublesome...
We've got some heavy duty characters, don't get me wrong.
But the one's being left for our secret were trash.
Bowser Jr is boss, Duck Hunt is... okay, but DARK PIT!?

I'm sorry but for me personally... that's harsh...

 

[volbound1700]

He is literally just a color change with slightly modified animations and knockback angles. As someone who doesn't like clones, I say no. I mean, if it was going to otherwise be an empty space then fine, he can stay, it makes no difference to me. It still doesn't change the fact that he is a poor excuse for a character. If dark pit is replacing a character that would have been on the roster then give that trash clone the boot.

To be completely honest, the full roster disgusted me. We gained shulk and bowser jr. then a ton of clones nobody wanted.
Want mewtwo? Here have dr. mario.
Want a much deserved DK rep? Have a KI clone.
Want clones that actually play differently like wolf and lucas? lol nope.

This isn't even trolling anymore. This is just flat out bad judgement.

Not to mention that the development time that went into Wii Fit Trainer (a character no one wanted) could have gone into King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, or Lucas, Wolf, and Ice Climbers.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm not sure where anyone is getting the impression that I don't like this game or I don't want to play this game
I WANT this game to be good, that's why the inclusion of clones is troublesome...
We've got some heavy duty characters, don't get me wrong.
But the one's being left for our secret were trash.
Bowser Jr is boss, Duck Hunt is... okay, but DARK PIT!?

I'm sorry but for me personally... that's harsh...

Just as an aside, be wary of double-posting. That can get you into trouble with the mods. >w<;;

I will apolgoise for that, I should have made myself clearer. I meant if you don't like the character, don't play the character.

I don't disagree that Sakurai saved some questionable choices for last, but then, as you say, they weren't ever meant to be revealed publicly. The leak was an unintended consequence of us meddling about and trying to make sense of things that our lesser mortals minds are not ready to comprehend. We stared into the abyss and we saw the abyss staring back into us.

I'm not going to contend with your opinions on Dark Pit. That's wholly subjective and at your discretion - I respect your own choices and will say that, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I think the best thing to do is just take it for what it is and try to see the positivity in it. ^_^

Not to mention that the development time that went into Wii Fit Trainer (a character no one wanted) could have gone into King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, or Lucas, Wolf, and Ice Climbers.

Speak for yourself. I don't like being told what I do and don't want.

 

[Gatlin]

Should have been an alternate Pit skin. I feel like literally any other character would have been a better slot-filler. Sigh.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The thing that really scares me about Dark Pit is that he might not have been a last-minute clone the way everyone defends him as.

The figures Sakurai tweeted over a year back as inspiration for the character modelers...

His appearance in the Palutena trailer and artwork...

Considering all of the other Kid Icarus bias that went into the game, I wouldn't say it would have been above Sakurai to have planned to add Dark Pit as a clone from the start. And that's what really infuriates me. That would mean they took the time to decide early in development to add Dark Pit, possibly with the insult to injury being to conceive him as a clone. Meaning contrary to Dark Pit's support, there's a very good chance he did get in over other characters like Lucas or Wolf.

I've been salty over some of the newcomers thus far, but Dark Pit easily takes the cake. There's no justification for Dark Pit as being anything more than an alt. The game is already 20% Kid Icarus content alone. This is just too much.

 

[LordVacation]

Just as an aside, be wary of double-posting. That can get you into trouble with the mods. >w<;;

I will apolgoise for that, I should have made myself clearer. I meant if you don't like the character, don't play the character.

I don't disagree that Sakurai saved some questionable choices for last, but then, as you say, they weren't ever meant to be revealed publicly. The leak was an unintended consequence of us meddling about and trying to make sense of things that our lesser mortals minds are not ready to comprehend. We stared into the abyss and we saw the abyss staring back into us.

I'm not going to contend with your opinions on Dark Pit. That's wholly subjective and at your discretion - I respect your own choices and will say that, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I think the best thing to do is just take it for what it is and try to see the positivity in it. ^_^

That's my bad.

Honestly the only positivity I can find from it is, if someone wants it...whatever, cool.
I doubt in my mind it takes any real time to make a clone so I won't kid myself and say Dark Pit is responsible for Ice Climbers or Mewtwo or Ridley not getting their dividends.

As I said before, we got some monstrous new characters to choose from; Megman, Pacman, Bowser Jr, Little Mac, Rosalina, Palutena, Villager etc. and I'll even give in to Wii-Fit Trainer!
But at the end of the day, if DLC doesn't bring that final roster to atleast 56, it's not complete in my feeble brain.

 

[Wintropy]

The thing that really scares me about Dark Pit is that he might not have been a last-minute clone the way everyone defends him as.

The figures Sakurai tweeted over a year back as inspiration for the character modelers...

His appearance in the Palutena trailer and artwork...

Considering all of the other Kid Icarus bias that went into the game, I wouldn't say it would have been above Sakurai to have planned to add Dark Pit as a clone from the start. And that's what really infuriates me. That would mean they took the time to decide early in development to add Dark Pit, possibly with the insult to injury being to conceive him as a clone. Meaning contrary to Dark Pit's support, there's a very good chance he did get in over other characters like Lucas or Wolf.

I've been salty over some of the newcomers thus far, but Dark Pit easily takes the cake. There's no justification for Dark Pit as being anything more than an alt. The game is already 20% Kid Icarus content alone. This is just too much.

I have considered that, and it makes me wonder - if we already speculated he'd be playable to begin with, why are we so worked up over it? Surely the onus should be on us to see these things in advance and just get used to it, rather than claiming it was sprung up as a weird and bizarre surprise at the last minute?

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I said.
Way to take something out on context to the extreme.

Why would I be against the inclusion of new characters like Ridley or Isaac? Don't act stupid to get your point across.

What I said was Dark Pit was a costume and is now a character, that is COMPLETELY different from a new character with a new move set.

Don't get upset because somebody has a different opinion from yours, just answering the topic at hand friend

Not you, but somebody, somewhere, hates them. So if that's your justification for cutting clones, then it should apply to every character. Simple, really.

Not to mention that the development time that went into Wii Fit Trainer (a character no one wanted) could have gone into King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, or Lucas, Wolf, and Ice Climbers.

I wanted her. She's funny, and a legitimate addition.

What's the point of adding expected characters, anyway? I want surprises.

The thing that really scares me about Dark Pit is that he might not have been a last-minute clone the way everyone defends him as.

The figures Sakurai tweeted over a year back as inspiration for the character modelers...

His appearance in the Palutena trailer and artwork...

Considering all of the other Kid Icarus bias that went into the game, I wouldn't say it would have been above Sakurai to have planned to add Dark Pit as a clone from the start. And that's what really infuriates me. That would mean they took the time to decide early in development to add Dark Pit, possibly with the insult to injury being to conceive him as a clone. Meaning contrary to Dark Pit's support, there's a very good chance he did get in over other characters like Lucas or Wolf.

I've been salty over some of the newcomers thus far, but Dark Pit easily takes the cake. There's no justification for Dark Pit as being anything more than an alt. The game is already 20% Kid Icarus content alone. This is just too much.

The game was mostly done by E3, so they would of definitely knew he was in by then.

Lol, there's not 20% KI content. That's hyperbole. Do you really think clones count for anything?

 

[R0Y]

Nope. No, no, no. Sakurai pls, I can think of way better clones, they're just not from your baby.

 

[Skyline1992]

As someone who likes to play as Pit, I'm not happy with his inclusion. I always gave Dark Pit the benefit of the doubt saying that if he was going to be a separate character, his moveset would be based on different weapon types. Now that I know he's a clone I have no interest in him. Had he been different, he'd be one of my favorites.

 

[Prince Lolz]

I love dark pit, but he didn't deserve to be in. So i'm happy but also upset for other peoples sake. Plus the fact he is a complete pit clone is rather stupid.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The game was mostly done by E3, so they would of definitely knew he was in by then.

Lol, there's not 20% KI content. That's hyperbole. Do you really think clones count for anything?

Even so, that model photo Sakurai tweeted implies Dark Pit was decided on way before crunch-time. That's bias if I've ****ing seen any.

And it's a hyperbole, but yes, clones do count. Dark Pit in addition to all of Palutena, the 6 Kid Icarus items, 2 Assist Trophies, new stage, and 16 Smash Run enemies is a lot of content for a game that has had 3 games in the last 25 years. When you factor in how Sakurai doesn't even acknowledge the West-only Kid Icarus II and that it's only had 1 game since Brawl, that's a disproportionate amount of content.

You want to compare that to Donkey Kong, Metroid or Star Fox and tell me they got the same treatment?

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

This form is just flamebait, people are just mad just because Dark Pit got in over their favorite character, He could have been last minute add in,it was a clone or nothing at all! It's disrespectful to say Sakurai is bias because you'er mad, also Sakurai didn't made Kid Icarus he just brought it from the dead.

 

[SmashTimeGo]

You really want to know?

 

[GloriousV]

Can I ask a few questions to the people who arent happy with Dark Pit's inclusion?

1. Do you think Dark Pit should have been just an alternate costume for Pit or should he have been a completely unique character?

2. Do you think his inclusion reflects Sakurai's bias towards his own games? If you do, what other examples of favoritism can you list?

3. Do you believe the reasons for adding Dark Pit to the roster where different from Lucina and Dr. Mario? If so, what do you believe where those reasons?

4. If Dark Pit wasnt part of the roster what do you think could have been different in this game?

5. Outside of Smash, do you like Dark Pit as a character?

 

[LancerStaff]

Nope. No, no, no. Sakurai pls, I can think of way better clones, they're just not from your baby.

Costumes only. Alph is really the only one that'd work, and that's nitpicking, really.

As someone who likes to play as Pit, I'm not happy with his inclusion. I always gave Dark Pit the benefit of the doubt saying that if he was going to be a separate character, his moveset would be based on different weapon types. Now that I know he's a clone I have no interest in him. Had he been different, he'd be one of my favorites.

Pit has PK Thunder arrows, Dark Pit has Brawl style ones. Give it some consideration.

Even so, that model photo Sakurai tweeted implies Dark Pit was decided on way before crunch-time. That's bias if I've ****ing seen any.

And it's a hyperbole, but yes, clones do count. Dark Pit is in addition to all of Palutena, the 6 Kid Icarus items, 2 Assist Trophies, new stage, and 16 Smash Run enemies is a lot of content for a game that has had 3 games in the last 25 years. When you factor in how Sakurai doesn't even acknowledge the West-only Kid Icarus II and that it's only had 1 game since Brawl, that's a disproportionate amount of content.

You want to compare that to Donkey Kong, Metroid or Star Fox and tell me they got the same treatment?

If he was planned as a costume then I'd say that's a legitimate reason to pose him with the rest. Even the, he was probably planning to make all the costumes into clones, just to be prepared. Alph was really the only one left that'd be viable to clone.

What if it doesn't have any enemies in SSBU? It'd make more sense to put all the KIU enemies on the 3DS because they already have models. Who knows, there might be 20 Pikmin enemies on Wii U. That, and we don't have a full count of SR enemies.

Mario cuts into DK, Metroid is much more obscure then you give it credit for. Come now, don't you think a game that had basically no previous entries and sold a mil on a semi-struggling system is pretty dang popular?

Can I ask a few questions to the people who arent happy with Dark Pit's inclusion?

1. Do you think Dark Pit should have been just an alternate costume for Pit or should he have been a completely unique character?

2. Do you think his inclusion reflects Sakurai's bias towards his own games? If you do, what other examples of favoritism can you list?

3. Do you believe the reasons for adding Dark Pit to the roster where different from Lucina and Dr. Mario? If so, what do you believe where those reasons?

4. If Dark Pit wasnt part of the roster what do you think could have been different in this game?

5. Outside of Smash, do you like Dark Pit as a character?

Whoops, misread. I'll just leave it here anyway.

1. No such thing as should. Of course I wanted him to be unique, but I understand why he's a clone.

2. Not particularly. It was basically him or Alph, and any competitive player will tell you they don't want two Olimars.

3. Not really. He's right next to them, too.

4. Alph probably would of been in, not much else.

5. Yes, he's funny when he's being a wannabe emo twin and afterwards when he loosens up a bit, although I wish we could of seen more of him after his character development.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

is he really a clone.I see more of brawl pit of him.Sure his down special is the same but i think he's more brawl pit than anything

 

[Weeman]

I understand why people are dissapointed, but in the end nobody would have taken Dark Pit's spot if he wasn't there.
This time around the clones were made based off their models wich were going to be alternate costumes originally.
So the only other plausible choices for clones were Alph and the Koopalings. Obviously having 7 Bowser Jr. clones wouyd have taken the originality out of him, so Alph is pretty much the only character who could have gotten in instead of Dark Pit, and honestly it's not like he is such a requested character either.

 

[Dunk Master]

Uh yeah, people wanted them. Especially over empty space.

Mewtwo? Completely Gamefreak's decision.
DK? One villain that hasn't been a part of the series for years, and a character that Sakurai wasn't aware was back into the cannon again until it was too late. That, and the average person sees Mario/DK/Wario/Yoshi as one big series with a few different icons. Rosalina and Jr. are legitimately more popular and well-known characters.
Not enough time, and the old ones both had controversy surrounding then. Wolf had it on both sides, while Lucas had it hard in Japan from fans of his own game who hated Mother 3, a legitimate base-breaker. Ness also took Lucas's hexagonal PK stuff for the extra reach thing, too.

There's real reasons why these clones got in over other characters, and you can't deny it.

1) Like I said, if it's a clone or nothing, sure i will take the clone. Just don't expect me to put it on The Reasons I <3 Sakurai list.

2) Agreed. Mewtwo is up to them. They did already have a good amount of pokemon anyway. However, the fan base and legitimacy for Mewtwo and many other characters was MUCH greater than the doc and color alt pit.

3) It isn't just K Rool. Dixie and a couple other suggestions were completely viable. Its almost laughable that somehow none of them got included.

4) The average person knows that DK is its own franchise. The only time they really cross over is mario kart and sports things. Not that franchise really matters since there doesn't seem to be a logical limit on reps now anyway.

5) Rosalina was a good addition. No disputes.

6) Even if you aren't a fan of Wolf and Lucas, you can still enjoy playing them because they are unique to their counterpart. I'm not a Ness or Lucas fan but I'm glad they were in because they are unique. The fact that Sakurai trashed his good clones and replaced them with minimal effort, near identical clones is the part that sickens me.

7) If by real reasons you mean because clones are easy to make then yeah, but it's incredibly lazy. You can't fill a roster up with them, though.

 

[Dunk Master]

Not to mention that the development time that went into Wii Fit Trainer (a character no one wanted) could have gone into King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, or Lucas, Wolf, and Ice Climbers.

I actually like WFT though. It's a goo Wii rep. Besides, you could blame any character for taking up another character's slot. I just don't understand why Sakurai is dumpstering so many veterans for half made clones.

Never Forget:
Wolf
Lucas
Ice Climbers

May they rest in peace.

 

[Dunk Master]

Yeah, dude.
Pretty much.

There's really no excuse for it anymore...
We shouldn't be gaining more and more clones as the series progresses.
If he didn't want to change Ganon's moveset for dome silly reason, k whatever.
But our Melee rep is Dr.Mario!? No Mewtwo to be seen!?
Which.. fine whatever.. but you take out Ice Climbers...?
Top it off with another Marth clone and DARK PIT... just spit in my face.

Essentially, including clones and Miis there is what? 51 characters?
How do you go from 12 > 25 > 39 > 51? That's not a natural progression to me but idk... whatever...

*spits in face*
"that's from Sakurai"

Was really hoping for Ganondorf to have a new moveset, but alas life goes on. I was actually super hyped for this game up until the leak. Then it was slowly crushed as it was confirmed that it was full roster. I expected too much I guess. Nevertheless Smash4Lyfe.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

I actually like WFT though. It's a goo Wii rep. Besides, you could blame any character for taking up another character's slot. I just don't understand why Sakurai is dumpstering so many veterans for half made clones.

Never Forget:
Wolf
Lucas
Ice Climbers

May they rest in peace.

Sakurai didn't cut them for clones, he may just ran out of time and the Ice Climbers had a reason from them being cut, the 3DS version couldn't support them Sakurai said they had a hard time with them and transformation characters with explain why Zelda, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Samus can't transform.

 

[Dunk Master]

Sakurai didn't cut them for clones, he may just ran out of time and the Ice Climbers had a reason from them being cut, the 3DS version couldn't support them Sakurai said they had a hard time with them and transformation characters with explain why Zelda, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Samus can't transform.

I didn't know that about Ice Climbers actually. Good to know. I just wish more effort was put into the clones though. Having different angle to knockback just isn't enough for me to consider them worth playing as a separate character.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai didn't cut them for clones, he may just ran out of time and the Ice Climbers had a reason from them being cut, the 3DS version couldn't support them Sakurai said they had a hard time with them and transformation characters with explain why Zelda, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Samus can't transform.

Just a note, Sakurai never said the ICs weren't possible on the 3DS, same with transformations. He stated that transformations were cut for balance reasons, in fact.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

I didn't know that about Ice Climbers actually. Good to know. I just wish more effort was put into the clones though. Having different angle to knockback just isn't enough for me to consider them worth playing as a separate character.

Yeah I like them to have more eefort put in to them too, it just seem like they was made for people who want to play Brawl Pit or Melee Mario, I don't know about ganon or Lucina though.

Just a note, Sakurai never said the ICs weren't possible on the 3DS, same with transformations. He stated that transformations were cut for balance reasons, in fact.

He said that he had a hard time to getting them work the game I'm trying to find the article.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

Yeah I like them to have more eefort put in to them too, it just seem like they was made for people who want to play Brawl Pit or Melee Mario, I don't know about ganon or Lucina though.

He said that he had a hard time to getting them work the game I'm trying to find the article.

edit: found one but it's not the same one:/ http://www.gengame.net/2013/07/some-smash-bros-characters-are-causing-development-trouble-on-3ds/

 

[HugoBoss]

This form is just flamebait, people are just mad just because Dark Pit got in over their favorite character, He could have been last minute add in,it was a clone or nothing at all! It's disrespectful to say Sakurai is bias because you'er mad, also Sakurai didn't made Kid Icarus he just brought it from the dead.

This thread is definitely flamebait but I don't agree with anything else you said. To state that everyone that dislikes Dark Pit is mad only because their favorite character ddi not make the cut is a gross generalization. There is a plethora of reasons to why people aren't happy for Dark Pit, and that is only one of them.
I also wouldn't say that it was Dark Pit or "nothing". If the rumors that the team had extra development time is true, don't you think that the time could have been used for more important matters(Extra Tweaking and Balancing, Returning Stages, More Costumes and Palette Swaps, Ganondorf and Falco still being semi-clones, the various Final Smashes that are identical etc)

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

If he was planned as a costume then I'd say that's a legitimate reason to pose him with the rest. Even the, he was probably planning to make all the costumes into clones, just to be prepared. Alph was really the only one left that'd be viable to clone.

What if it doesn't have any enemies in SSBU? It'd make more sense to put all the KIU enemies on the 3DS because they already have models. Who knows, there might be 20 Pikmin enemies on Wii U. That, and we don't have a full count of SR enemies.

Mario cuts into DK, Metroid is much more obscure then you give it credit for. Come now, don't you think a game that had basically no previous entries and sold a mil on a semi-struggling system is pretty dang popular?

I'm saying he may have been planned as a character from the start. The fact that he had his own figure, something you have to go out of your way to make and present, alongside a bunch of other playable characters that made it into the game. I'm saying that implies Dark Pit may have been planned as more than an alternate costume from the start, and that's what I hate.

And that's not the point, LancerStaff. I'm saying in proportion to other series in Smash Run, Kid Icarus had an overwhelming majority of enemies compared to any other series. Look at this. Mario enemies cap at 12. Kirby caps at 9. Zelda caps at 8. Metroid gets 4 while Donkey Kong gets 2. Are you telling me that 16 enemies from one series, most of these only being in one game of this series, is fair compared to the amount the other series have gotten? Because I'm pretty sure Kid Icarus isn't popular enough to where double the amount of enemies Zelda gets doesn't sound right at all. Not by a long shot.

Sakurai didn't make Pikmin, by the way. He wouldn't give us 20 Pikmin enemies on the Wii U version for the reason that he doesn't have bias towards the series. You'd sooner do a better job convincing me he'll give us an excessive amount of Kirby enemies (when there might not even be enemies on the Wii U version in the first place).

Mario doesn't cut into DK. Nobody calls Dixie or K. Rool a Mario rep. Nobody affiliates general Mario content with the Donkey Kong Country series. Unless you give some sort of source of any kind that explains how Sakurai considers Mario and DK to share some sort of limit together, I don't want to hear it.

And no, Kid Icarus' popularity is over-exaggerated. It sold well, but it's still miles behind the numbers of Super Mario 3D Land, The Legend of Zelda, A Link Between Worlds, Mario Kart 7, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, and so on, all the ones mentioned being above 2.5 million units at this point. Donkey Kong, which has gotten 2 enemies and nothing else, is a behemoth in sales compared to Kid Icarus. DKC1 alone is 9 million copies compared to the entirety of the Kid Icarus series not even reaching 4 million. I'm not saying it sold poorly, because that's far from the truth, but when its fandom is no larger than most of the other established fandoms at this point, there's no reason why we should be having an excess of material coming from Kid Icarus: Uprising alone.

Also, could you repeat that? Metroid is obscure? The same series that has nearly a dozen games over a course of 30 years? The one that has the currently most requested newcomer in Smash Bros. to not be deconfirmed thus far? This is comparing it to what now...? If you're saying Kid Icarus's popularity beats out Metroid's, you are very, very heavily mistaken. Metroid deserved much more than what it got. Same for Donkey Kong and Star Fox. Kid Icarus got way more than it should have, Dark Pit included.

Frankly, between the way you've gone about all this and your own username has me believing you might be biased yourself. I played Kid Icarus: Uprising and loved it to bits, but I'd be lying if I said Kid Icarus wasn't handled with complete and utter bias. It was and everyone knows it was. We got so much stuff from Uprising that it's not even funny. I don't want to hear you say it's every bit justified when it leaves other series completely behind. That double goes for a second Kid Icarus newcomer that was potentially planned to take up room in the roster in the first place.

 

[TheKingOfTown]

The more the merrier, I say. It's not like this guy is in at the expense of a major character or anything.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

This thread is definitely flamebait but I don't agree with anything else you said. To state that everyone that dislikes Dark Pit is mad only because their favorite character ddi not make the cut is a gross generalization. There is a plethora of reasons to why people aren't happy for Dark Pit, and that is only one of them.
I also wouldn't say that it was Dark Pit or "nothing". If the rumors that the team had extra development time is true, don't you think that the time could have been used for more important matters(Extra Tweaking and Balancing, Returning Stages, More Costumes and Palette Swaps, Ganondorf and Falco still being semi-clones, the various Final Smashes that are identical etc)

I unstaind that everyone is just mad line was a little over the line, but all I see is Dark Pit taking up roster space or Kid Icarus is over rep. And don't have a lot of Palette Swaps? everyone have like eight of them, I don't think Sakurai put clones in just to piss people off.

 

[HugoBoss]

I unstaind that everyone is just mad line was a little over the line, but all I see is Dark Pit taking up roster space or Kid Icarus is over rep. And don't have a lot of Palette Swaps? everyone have like eight of them, I don't think Sakurai put clones in just to piss people off.

It's understandable
I don't believe that DP took up any slot, but Kid Icarus is definitely over represented. The Palette Swap choices were pretty disappointing, and not everyone got alternate costumes.

 

[LancerStaff]

edit: found one but it's not the same one:/ http://www.gengame.net/2013/07/some-smash-bros-characters-are-causing-development-trouble-on-3ds/

Characters like the ICs. We don't even know if Sakurai tried. They might of been left behind early on because of Chaingrabbing.

I'm saying he may have been planned as a character from the start. The fact that he had his own figure, something you have to go out of your way to make and present, alongside a bunch of other playable characters that made it into the game. I'm saying that implies Dark Pit may have been planned as more than an alternate costume from the start, and that's what I hate.

And that's not the point, LancerStaff. I'm saying in proportion to other series in Smash Run, Kid Icarus had an overwhelming majority of enemies compared to any other series. Look at this. Mario enemies cap at 12. Kirby caps at 9. Zelda caps at 8. Metroid gets 4 while Donkey Kong gets 2. Are you telling me that 16 enemies from one series, most of these only being in one game of this series, is fair compared to the amount the other series have gotten? Because I'm pretty sure Kid Icarus isn't popular enough to where double the amount of enemies Zelda gets doesn't sound right at all. Not by a long shot.

Sakurai didn't make Pikmin, by the way. He wouldn't give us 20 Pikmin enemies on the Wii U version for the reason that he doesn't have bias towards the series. You'd sooner do a better job convincing me he'll give us an excessive amount of Kirby enemies (when there might not even be enemies on the Wii U version in the first place).

Mario doesn't cut into DK. Nobody calls Dixie or K. Rool a Mario rep. Nobody affiliates general Mario content with the Donkey Kong Country series. Unless you give some sort of source of any kind that explains how Sakurai considers Mario and DK to share some sort of limit together, I don't want to hear it.

And no, Kid Icarus' popularity is over-exaggerated. It sold well, but it's still miles behind the numbers of Super Mario 3D Land, The Legend of Zelda, A Link Between Worlds, Mario Kart 7, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, and so on, all the ones mentioned being above 2.5 million units at this point. Donkey Kong, which has gotten 2 enemies and nothing else, is a behemoth in sales compared to Kid Icarus. DKC1 alone is 9 million copies compared to the entirety of the Kid Icarus series not even reaching 4 million. I'm not saying it sold poorly, because that's far from the truth, but when its fandom is no larger than most of the other established fandoms at this point, there's no reason why we should be having an excess of material coming from Kid Icarus: Uprising alone.

Also, could you repeat that? Metroid is obscure? The same series that has nearly a dozen games over a course of 30 years? The one that has the currently most requested newcomer in Smash Bros. to not be deconfirmed thus far? This is comparing it to what now...? If you're saying Kid Icarus's popularity beats out Metroid's, you are very, very heavily mistaken. Metroid deserved much more than what it got. Same for Donkey Kong and Star Fox. Kid Icarus got way more than it should have, Dark Pit included.

Frankly, between the way you've gone about all this and your own username has me believing you might be biased yourself. I played Kid Icarus: Uprising and loved it to bits, but I'd be lying if I said Kid Icarus wasn't handled with complete and utter bias. It was and everyone knows it was. We got so much stuff from Uprising that it's not even funny. I don't want to hear you say it's every bit justified when it leaves other series completely behind. That double goes for a second Kid Icarus newcomer that was potentially planned to take up room in the roster in the first place.

That's a figma figure... I know people who have them. They're all random figures, check out the Bowser in the back from 2002. Yes, the SSB4 resemblance is uncanny on some, but still.

Is that every SR enemy or not?

They were directly ported over. That's why I mentioned Pikmin: because it'd be easy to port them over.

You know why the average Smasher associates DK with Mario? Donkey Kong, for the arcade. The fact that even K. Rool and Dixie have appeared in Mario spin-offs doesn't help. No, people don't call DK games Mario games, but they do call DK characters Mario characters more often then not.

It's the first game in 25-years on a then-struggling system. Metroid then would of bombed. Really, we haven't seen enough of KI to compare it to the long-runners.

Metroid 1 bombed in Japan. Metroid 2 was just meh. Super bombed hard. What is considered to be the defining point in the genre bombed. The Primes only managed because of the FPS gameplay, then OM went on to do poorly again. Metroid has a history of mediocre sales.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

It's understandable
I don't believe that DO took up any slot, but Kid Icarus is definitely over represented. The Palette Swap choices were pretty disappointing, and not everyone got alternate costumes.

Yeah the color a better but not that great, I'm more disappointed in Sonic colors than anything. I know Sonic blue fur is his trade mark but come on can they be a little less canon for this game.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing that really scares me about Dark Pit is that he might not have been a last-minute clone the way everyone defends him as.

The figures Sakurai tweeted over a year back as inspiration for the character modelers...

His appearance in the Palutena trailer and artwork...

Considering all of the other Kid Icarus bias that went into the game, I wouldn't say it would have been above Sakurai to have planned to add Dark Pit as a clone from the start. And that's what really infuriates me. That would mean they took the time to decide early in development to add Dark Pit, possibly with the insult to injury being to conceive him as a clone. Meaning contrary to Dark Pit's support, there's a very good chance he did get in over other characters like Lucas or Wolf.

I've been salty over some of the newcomers thus far, but Dark Pit easily takes the cake. There's no justification for Dark Pit as being anything more than an alt. The game is already 20% Kid Icarus content alone. This is just too much.

I thought he was planned to be a clone from the get go. But your point does not stand. Just because he was planned, doesn't mean he took up any less development time. Sakurai would've known that Dark Pit would be an easy addition, so why would he say "Hmm… I'm adding this character that is a palette swap with a few different attributes. I guess that eats up the rest of my time for Wolf and Lucas!" And Wolf and Lucas? They're not nearly complete clones like Dark Pit and Lucina are. Both of their neutrals have much different animations and effects, I find it hard to believe that they would take up the same amount of time that Dark Pit did.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

That's a figma figure... I know people who have them. They're all random figures, check out the Bowser in the back from 2002. Yes, the SSB4 resemblance is uncanny on some, but still.

Is that every SR enemy or not?

They were directly ported over. That's why I mentioned Pikmin: because it'd be easy to port them over.

You know why the average Smasher associates DK with Mario? Donkey Kong, for the arcade. The fact that even K. Rool and Dixie have appeared in Mario spin-offs doesn't help. No, people don't call DK games Mario games, but they do call DK characters Mario characters more often then not.

It's the first game in 25-years on a then-struggling system. Metroid then would of bombed. Really, we haven't seen enough of KI to compare it to the long-runners.

Metroid 1 bombed in Japan. Metroid 2 was just meh. Super bombed hard. What is considered to be the defining point in the genre bombed. The Primes only managed because of the FPS gameplay, then OM went on to do poorly again. Metroid has a history of mediocre sales.

Man you have a hard time drawing the core point out of things. Where the figure made is not the relevance. The fact that it was shown very early in development, amidst a group characters planned to be playable from the start, is what leaves the definite possibility that Dark Pit was planned to be a character from the start. Do you not comprehend that?

It's an extensive list of what we know so far, but that seems to be most if not all of them.

Have you seen the models and animations? They were made from scratch, not ported. You really need to stop making things up.

Who is the average smasher? Seriously, give me a source link for that, because this is the first time I'm being told "everyone sees Donkey Kong as a Mario character" when my experience has taught me that everyone sees Donkey Kong as a Donkey Kong character. I see pretty much nobody on the forums refer to Donkey Kong as lesser part of the Mario series. Mario is technically the spin-off of Donkey Kong, by the way, not the other way around.

It bombed in Japan, but was a success in the rest of the world. Super Metroid was a critical success. The Prime series were critically acclaimed. You're taking the whole "it wasn't popular in Japan" bit and exasperating it. Japan isn't the only country in the world the games need to appeal to. By the way, Metroid on the NES had sold 2.73 million units worldwide. Kid Icarus had only sold 1.76 million units. If you're arguing that Metroid bombed, take a look at the very thing you're arguing for. Metroid's 17.44 million units still crushes Kid Icarus's 4 million, and the series has been around just as long as Metroid. Now how about you start giving actual facts instead of just "Metroid hardly sells" excuses and "There's not enough Kid Icarus yet" hypotheticals, hm?

 

[Pureownege75]

I have minimal issue with pseudo clones/clones that actually had effort put into them like Falco and Toon Link. But when we see characters like Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, and Lucina, who appear to have near identical movesets, animations, and properties, it starts getting to be a real problem. Then add on top of that that Dark Pit is pretty much the embodiment of Sakurai bias, and you have my least favorite character on the roster