APEX GF's... QQ

[GawdImFoxy]

Let me start by saying that this isn't one of those "OMG SO CAMPY DO NOT WANT" kinda threads. Well, to a degree, but it moreso depends on how you interpret my QQ'ing. Obviously, trolls will be here. But I'm digressing.

Hungrybox is a super cool guy. Awesome dude to chill with. He's fun to play with too. In friendlies. He's the type of player we need in this community. He's respectful, smart, and overall a very nice guy. I don't really know Armada in person, but I respect him as a player and as a person. The guy has so much heart coming over here time and time again, only to just fall short of winning. He's been beaten by Peepee, Hungrybox, Mango, among others. But he keeps coming back for more. And recently, it's been paying off. At first I just dismissed Genesis 2 as charity after what Mango said about letting him win in a podcast. But now I'm questioning the validity of my assumption after noting how convincingly Armada beat him at APEX. Could Mango have gotten too cocky and started sleeping on these other top players? The thought that this may or may not be true scares the **** out of me. Mango is the last hope for a metagame that encourages me to stick with the community. Don't get me wrong; I understand the stakes of APEX2012 as well as anyone else. And I'm all for doing whatever it takes to win, even if it means camping. But I'd be lying if I said I was watching GF's after I saw Mango lose to HBox. I simply cannot get excited in a campy game. Melee is QUICKLY turning into Brawl.

Don't get me wrong, I'd never say Brawl is a bad game. But it's a very different game from Melee. I play Melee because Brawl doesn't appeal to me. How is APEX2012 Melee GF's much different from any Brawl match? Nothing fast-paced happened. At all.

This is why I'm afraid though. What happens when this type of gameplay becomes normal? What happens when Melee turns into Brawl? I've been playing this game since its release. The very day of its release. Over the years, I've gradually seen the game turn to brawl. Mango was the only thing keeping the metagame exciting. He single-handedly proves it's possible to win by approaching. He proves you don't have to camp to win. He proves so much to me. But is he really losing his touch? We all know that one of Mango's least favorite things is losing to Hungrybox.

Yes, my rant is done. But rest assured, community. Mango was right. This type of gameplay is going to be the death of the community in and of itself. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way about this topic. If I feel like Mango is losing it, then my inspiration is gone. He does so much more for the community than we realize at first glance by playing the way he does. I do more than my share for the community, and I'm sure there are plenty of others that do significantly more than I that feel the exact same way. If we lose this type of support, the game will die.

TL;DR Approach. For the love of God.

 

[john!]

are you sure that mango is aggressive because he wants to see the community embrace that style?

i don't think melee will die because of a campy metagame. the fact that the two best characters are the space animals ensures that this will never happen.

 

[Tekk]

Defensive players that actually place top5 at every major:

-Armada
-Hbox

Oh yeah, melee is dying/turning into brawl.
Because. Of. Two. Players.

How about you do something about it, instead of whining ?

 

[Beat!]

>__>

So much wrong in that post.

This huge issue some people are having with defensive play is really starting to bother me.

No, Melee isn't "turning into Brawl".

Let people play defensive if they want. If you want to quit playing because of it, that's your call, but you'd probably be more happy if you learned to appreciate defense as much as aggression.

 

[Shellshock821]

"What happens when this type of gameplay becomes normal? "

This isn't stated just at you Foxy, but a lot of people in the community......get a gripe! Seriously, one grand final set and people start flipping out like this is the end of Melee and everybody is going to see how amazing camping is and Melee will turn into Brawl. The chances of everybody just up and changing their ways and going with this playstyle is highly unlikely in my eyes.

When I start seeing Falco's just laser and space b-airs all day I'll get worried. When Fox's just laser people into killing percents and then solely look for up smash kills, and rinse and repeat, I'll be worried. There's a lot of other things that would have to happen, but be realistic. People are taking this Puff vs Young Link match up like it's the sign of things to come, like everybody is seriously going to start playing this way. People thought when Hbox was destroying everybody (except for Mango) that it was going to become a new era for Jigglypuff and the character was going to pop up all over the tourney scene and slowly kill the game. It hasn't happened, and I doubt it ever will. Same with this, chill people.

 

[Jonas]

Yeah everyone's totally going to main Jigglypuff and Young Link now and ruin the game. Oh well, it's been a cool ten years, time to move on.

 

[Jolteon]

Defensive players that actually place top5 at every major:

-Armada
-Hbox

Oh yeah, melee is dying/turning into brawl.
Because. Of. Two. Players.

How about you do something about it, instead of whining ?

Because that's just too logical.

 

[Shadow Huan]

jigglypuff and ylink are zoning characters. Puff zones with arieal attacks and ylink zone with projectiles. How do you expect them to play the MU? Sorry that they aren't the spacies and can't do all that flashy technical stuff. Being able to play melee like it was played in the APEX 2012 GFs as well as being able to play aggro and technical just shows what a varied and deep game it is.

 

[Merkuri]

I don't think the metagame will be completely campy like Apex GFs was anytime soon. That being said, given the players involved I think we may be seeing some campy GFs again in the near future.

 

[Krynxe]

To summarize the op:
"What happens when every person starts playing puff and young link?"

Also, it's not hbox's fault that armada played the way he did. In actuality, it's really only 1 player playing this way as a counter to 1 other player.

 

[SamusPoop]

M2k's fox did laser till killing perents then do so and repeat sometimes would do tricks like cc bair up-smash or nair up-smash.

Really with defense if You know where they are about to be really take up the space they give up and hit him if You can reach or just box them in. Really just approach full force when they are retreating can help a lot. Do it enough they will stop retreating and will attack back directly.

 

[Massive]

I've already barked up this tree, dear OP.

People just get mad at you for bringing it up.

 

[Beat!]

For good reasons.

 

[007-jake]

Melee will never turn into brawl. All that needs to happen here is for another player thats not jiggs to become number 1. Who knows, maybe within the next year, some random marth or fox player will become the undisputed champ and start pwning hbox and armada. Maybe peepee will rise to number 1. Im sure everyone will stop ****ingg when a floaty character isnt in the grand finals. I say you noobs just need to find out how to beat jigglypuff.

 

[Strong Badam]

Let me point out some differences between Melee GFs and any Brawl match
1. You can't airdodge out of hitstun
2. You can't attack out of hitstun
3. Below 31 frames of hitstun, you CAN trajectory DI
4. Armada had to sweetspot the ledge

what up

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ok, I'll bite.

Why would Melee die because of a temporary metagame shift? I mean, it's only one Grand Finals, and by no means does it indicate that we're going in any direction. Isn't Melee's greatest strength that you can play any way you like? If someone wants to play a certain way, why shouldn't they?

And I had another point and forgot it. Oh well. Let's try to get a discussion out of this, I suppose.

 

[Zodiac]

Defensive players that actually place top5 at every major:

-Armada
-Hbox

Oh yeah, melee is dying/turning into brawl.
Because. Of. Two. Players.

How about you do something about it, instead of whining ?

1. Smashboards is where things get done in the community, so...he is doing something about it

2. We keep seeing new top players rise quickly, javi was amazing to see, and hax(To my memory) has never placed this high before at a tournament this big, and also this was a pretty big victory for kirby kaze. New talent is always emerging, who that talent plays is still up in the air. if more people say "Hey, I like playing jiggs" but they play aggresivley, and beat a lot of people someone else will inevitably think ;"Young link...camp..a lot". This will take a few years to fully implement, if it ever does, but it would mean seeing boring match ups like this a lot more often, and it would be the price of playing puff.

in a year a player will make a thread titled "I am thinking of picking the game and maining jiggs" the response to this thread will be "good luck with those young links"

 

[GawdImFoxy]

I kinda figured everything would be misinterpreted. The point I wanted to get across is that the way the metagame's going, you'll have to play very defensively and camp if you want to win. That can't be denied. Hax already brought that up in his "Melee's flaw" thread. The grab is just too strong in this game.

I'm not saying this is bad if you're into campy, defensive play. To each his own. But I know of players that absolutely hate that style of play. Two of which are Mango, one of the biggest names in the community, and Hax, one of the best players on the East Coast. I'm sure there are several more, but for argument's sake, I'll leave it at that because those two players are the only ones I know of that have spoken up about it.

I also know that several people dipped out of the stream when GF's came on. If we had a SINGLE reasonably aggressive player there, such as Mango or Peepee, I guarantee, those people would've been less likely to leave.

Get outta here, trolls. Except Strong Bad. He really showed me.

 

[bertbusdriver]

hax placed 5th at pound 5 and 9th at genesis 2

Too many people didn't enjoy grand finals for melee to gravitate towards that playstyle

 

[GawdImFoxy]

hax placed 5th at pound 5 and 9th at genesis 2

Too many people didn't enjoy grand finals for melee to gravitate towards that playstyle

I hope you're right. I REALLY hope you're right.

 

[SinisterB]

So, did you miss Javi v PP?

We may see more campy *** GFs, but Melee aggro will never die.

Never.


If you play aggro you'll probably stay aggro, amiright? Maybe learn some defensive tricks or something, but you aren't gonna change your entire playstyle are you? Same goes for others who play aggressive. I mean we might see an extra campy match here and there but I really doubt that'd become the foundation.

Spoiler

oh god it better not

 

[Levingy]

I think there are more supporters of a campy/defensive playstyle than there are for aggressive. I mean look at brawl, it hasn't died even it is campy/defensive. There are more brawl tourneys than melee tourneys, and for brawl there are more participants in tourneys also. So if melee's metagame shifts to more campy playstyle, I believe the scene will just grow more. The game will be "dead" for the people like gawdImFoxy, but it will be more alive than it has ever been able to be for so many people, that it will do good for the community^^. But I doubt melee will turn to campy way, not much atleast. Only couple matchups maybe. And I see it richness that this game can be played with so many different kinda ways, and not only aggro full speed -mode on.

 

[Sinji]

IDK about Mango vs Armada, but you guys noticed that Mango picked blue fox instead of red fox against Hbox after the exhibition match with Javi. Its obvious that Mango was trying to play as technical, fast and cool as Javi.

Thats going to be Mango's next john when he post on DBR again.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

I personally don't care how many ways the game can be played. If I want to watch a Brawl match, I'll turn on a Brawl video. I play and watch Melee with action in mind. And I'm all for defensive play, but I resent exclusively defensive play. No one in the community can honestly say they'd rather watch HBox Vs. Armada than Shiz vs. Mango.

 

[twizzlerj]

Let me point out some differences between Melee GFs and any Brawl match
1. You can't airdodge out of hitstun
2. You can't attack out of hitstun
3. Below 31 frames of hitstun, you CAN trajectory DI
4. Armada had to sweetspot the ledge

what up

melee>brawl it will be like this until the end of time and maybe even longer.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah. I was trolling. You caught me.

*sigh*

 

[Divinokage]

Lmao at metagame shifts.. >_>

 

[GawdImFoxy]

It's not the fact that it's a metagame shift. It's the type of shift that bothers me.

 

[Divinokage]

What makes you think that? Just because 2 players fight a certain way will not mean others will follow suit.. it's impossible unless these players are at the same level. Everyone will still have their own style regardless of what happens in the metagame.

 

[ETWIST51294]

lol

Omg Y.Link vs Jiggs in Melee :O It's Barwl now!

Omg Cable vs Spiral in MvC2 :O It's Brlaw now!

Omg Sim vs Sagat in AE :O It's Balrw now!

Omg Hawkeye vs Joe in UMvC3 :O It's Bwlar now!

Omg Eddie vs Axel in GGAC :O It's Blarw now!

My point is, just because you have two defensive characters facing off doesn't mean a complete metagame shift. Seriously.

 

[Jolteon]

lol

Omg Y.Link vs Jiggs in Melee :O It's Barwl now!

Omg Cable vs Spiral in MvC2 :O It's Brlaw now!

Omg Sim vs Sagat in AE :O It's Balrw now!

Omg Hawkeye vs Joe in UMvC3 :O It's Bwlar now!

Omg Eddie vs Axel in GGAC :O It's Blarw now!

My point is, just because you have two defensive characters facing off doesn't mean a complete metagame shift. Seriously.

truth .

 

[Divinokage]

It's absolutely ********, lol.

 

[Merkuri]

It's not the fact that it's a metagame shift. It's the type of shift that bothers me.

The last two times Armada was in GFs before this it wasn't campy. Armada vs Hbox at apex2010 was really campy, but that didn't seem to shift the metagame overall or at the top. I don't think we have anything to worry about just yet.

 

[Divinokage]

We NEVER have anything to worry about.. unless to watch another long GF.. it's all about PLAYER match-up.

 

[Deadandlivin]

Characters like Fox and Falco will make sure campy playstyles can be punished.

I see a huge differense in campy playstyles and defensive playstyles. Characters like Marth, Jiggs and Captain create openers when they can go offensive through mindgames, spacing and a deep understanding of the game. Rushing into someone's shield as these characters will most likely get you grabbed and severely *****.

A campy playstyle is more someone who through grand zoning and pressure forces the other person to approach but doesn't utilize it and continue to camp until he gets an attack in and does the best he can out of it. Armadas YL is a good example.

The best counter to extremely defensive gameplay is simply pressure and spacing.
Countering a defensive Marth, Captain or Fox or a Bird is easy to adapt to. Specially since those are characters that rely heavily on combos and techchases to get pressure up.

Jigglypuff however is a problematic character. As long as people stay away from Jigglypuff, or atleast the way Hbox plays him, we wont see a shift in the metagame.
The problem with jiggs is that she will poke your shield endlessly and fly through the air to make sure she doesn't get grabbed. And yeah, rest kinda meh..

But how many Jiggs are there out there playing this game, all I know of is Mango which overall plays an exciting jiggs and Hbox which might not be the most interessting player to see playing. That's something we should be greatful for.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

The problem lies in an inability to approach imo. Players are afraid to approach because grab is such a versatile move. Getting grabbed, in most cases, can be a large momentum shift. The risk of getting grabbed makes approaching very difficult in today's meta. Not only grab, the risk of approaching a Jiggs, or most high tier characters for that matter, far outweighs the reward. The game is rewarding to very defensive players, which is fine. But it's not even the Young Link vs. Puff ******ry exclusively. The game is getting more and more defensive. Fact. I do 100% agree with everyone saying spacies will keep the meta reasonably aggressive. Even Peach with float cancelling can approach somewhat safely, and Falcon's fast enough to avoid some punishes. But defensive play is far too rewarding to pass up in my opinion. So even though these characters CAN approach, they likely won't be doing it as frequently.

 

[darkatma]

only bad players worry about this.

 

[Divinokage]

Foxy, you sure you have been playing melee competitively actively? ... I don't see this at all and even if a player is defensive, there's always answer to beat the crap out of them. Learn some counter-plans.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

no one is going to comment about how ridicules levingy's post is? I mean really he thinks more people are going to start playing melee if it gets campy. Ok so Levingy the reason people still play brawl even though it is campy is b/c its always been that way and the people playing it enjoy or at the min think they can win money playing that game. Now for melee which has always been a faster paced game if it became campy the current players would most likely quit b/c they would stop enjoying the game and stop playing. there is no reason to believe that a campy melee meta game would increase the amount of people playing melee. stop being an idiot.

Also now for the op, just b/c there is one somewhat relevant Mu which has to be played campy does not mean the game will become campy. your idea that people wont approach b/c of grabs makes no sense b/c the space animals can approach and be safe so they wont be grabbed, peach can do this as well, and with good spacing and L canceling you wont be so easily grabbed (which at this point i cant believe any top level pros cant l cancel 100% or 99% of the time at this point in the meta). so what i am saying to you is stop worrying about a non issue and this whole thread is dumb.

Also to the person who said jiggs in the future will have to worry about all the ylinks, you r so wrong. for one there has so far been no noticeable shift to ylink 2nds, the amount of jiggs r still kinda low even with jiggs being a top tier. another reason is b/c hbox doesnt think ylink even counters jiggs, he just doesnt know the MU or its even or something.

people keep talking about how melee is getting campier but besides ylink for jiggs time outs still r rare. I am getting very tired of threads like these which r honestly just yelling the sky is falling when nothing is going on. there is no evidence of any sort to back up a thread like this and this whole thing is just ridicules

 

[Divinokage]

The end of the world is near so people get scared.. or something along those lines loll.