51 characters total, reasoning inside.

[Erimir]

I'll go ahead and do it, because the posts are getting huge and unreadable. So I'm going to chop it into bits. Response, part one, if I can't trim it down to something reasonable!

Use collapse.

Spoiler

There's such a thing as a hierarchy of information. On-board characters are prioritized because they're available now. DLC characters may OR MAY NOT exist on your game, so affording them equal priority is ridiculous! Logic![/quote]And once they're downloaded, they're available... now.

Then there is still less work because I don't have to fiddle with page-up/page-down equivalents to find my character. I already know where they are, because I can see them. Less button presses = better menu design!

It might be fewer button presses, but it is not necessarily that much easier to find them when they're so tiny. Not everybody agrees with you that those boxes are the right size, not everybody has the same eyesight as you.

Seconds add up. Plus, why add downtime for no appreciable reason? It serves nothing to delay the player even a half-second longer to play the game.

You're writing these super long posts, but a second or two on the CSS screen (during which you might be still making your decision anyway) relative to a 5 or 6 minute match, oh that's gonna add up.

The hell are you on about?

As I explicitly said, I was showing you what you sound like when you say "Pro-tip: Thing irrelevant to what you were saying."

Look at what I wrote: "Does this, in itself, form an argument? No. Does it prove anything really? No. Am I saying it anyway, for no reason? Well, actually, no. I'm doing it to help you understand what you sound like."

Yet you have responded as if I had claimed this was an important argument. Oh, you sure showed me. That statement I made, that I explicitly said didn't prove anything, you showed that it doesn't prove anything. Ya got me. You're so sharp.

Like, seriously, I was kinda joking before, but do you have a problem with actually reading things before you respond?

Then what is the benefit of scrollng? Just more characters? THAT'S IT?

Well, I dunno about you, but I want to buy Super Smash Bros, not Super Menu Design Bros.

Yes, the primary content of the game is "it".

Like, are you really incredulous that I (or anyone else) would prefer more characters in Smash, or more courses in Mario Kart even if it makes the menu slightly less pretty?

Are you actually a gamer, or just a menu fetishist? Cuz most people care more about the game than the menu.

and Sakurai is a hypocrite if he calls himself a designer and then ****s out garbage menu design!

I'm pretty sure Sakurai doesn't give a **** about your opinion. I'm sure he would come up with a good design if he chose to put in more than 47 characters, regardless of your own incapability to do so.

So let's toss ALL of that in the trash just because.. Uh.. I'll explain later guys!

I thought I told you to learn not to straw man. Do I need to link you to a definition?

There aren't any columns in the design! Those are parts of the cell that make the appearance of columns. You DO know what the gestalt effect is, right?

If by "appearance of columns" you mean "they appear to be four cells lined up and stacked on top of each other" then yes.

What exactly would it look like if there were actual "columns" in your view, because you must be using it to mean something different from a normal person.

Weren't you complaining about semantics earlier?

It's relevant because it's incoporated into the design of the individual cells to prevent a problem with distribution of cells. Don't tell me you think the black is, like, a background layer or something.

I made no claims about the layers or how the menu is rendered. I was just looking at it. There are black lines between the pictures. How many pixels they take up is not changed by what you're saying. Do you have a point to this? Because you're being rather unclear. Use your words.

You heard it here, folks! Full HD uncompressed textures and full sound options as well as full-detail models, all on the 3DS! So then why's the Wii U look a little different, then?

Oh, wait, the 3DS is a bit less capable than the Wii U? Then guess what, that's a bottleneck.

I told you twice already. Learn how to not use straw men. It's shoddy reasoning.

You were claiming the 3DS would be a bottleneck - specifically in regards to the size of the roster. That has nothing to do with HD uncompressed textures or sound options. Nothing whatsoever. It is something you made up to put in my mouth so that you could attempt to look smarter. But it just makes you look dishonest.

The fact is that 3DS cartridges have plenty of storage, and they could easily hold a very large roster without running out of memory. Do you actually disagree with that, or do you want to childishly pretend I said it could hold hours of Blu-Ray movies?

So Sakurai's Brawl roster totaling nicely to 36, and allowing that design was.. Happy coincidence?

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I haven't seen any statement from him saying that he decided to stop working on Mewtwo so as to maintain his menu design, for example. You haven't either, or I imagine you would've said something.

In Melee he did not force the roster to fit in a perfect rectangle. So it is obvious that he does not necessarily force the roster to fit that way.

Ah, I see, you're one of those that hates the crap out of Gematsu.

What did I say about straw man arguments again?

Tell me, how hard did you rail against the 35-character roster leak when the signs were pointing at it to be true? How loudly did you bellow that Mewtwo was just a hidden character before finding out he was GONE?

I dunno, not at all? You're not as insightful as you think you are. You're just making **** up about me on the basis of nothing.

All of the evidence points at Gematsu being true.

Gematsu does not claim to be a complete roster, to be all the newcomers, or anything else. If you have a statement from SalRomano that that is the case, you can bring it up. I don't dispute the Gematsu leak's credibility. You, on the other hand, are claiming that it means things that were never claimed by SalRomano and that these things are proven.

This coming from the guy who can't decipher the meaning of decipher. :D

I knew what you meant. I just pointed out that you used the word incorrectly. And you reacted exactly as I thought you would.

Being civil doesn't WORK when you have such an aggressive display of stupidity and lack of logic!

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of remaining civil in such conditions.

Why not?

"Why not?" is not an argument. He is free to deviate from the perfect rectangle if he pleases. You are the one making the claim, you have to support it. You don't just say "Why not?"

But then, he arrived at a very strange number(25) to set easily without overwhelming the middle of the space with essentially a square.

It's almost like he wasn't picking the roster just to maintain a particular menu design.

The experiment is 'gee, can 48 cells fit on this screen?' The result is 'why yes, they can, and do so with no fuss.'

Yes, but that's not a scientific experiment. I mean, unless you think I'm doing an experiment when I design a PowerPoint. Which just dilutes the idea into meaninglessness.

Information such as the Gematsu leak suggest that 47 is the correct number as well. Unless you think that's just a coincidence too. Scientific method in action!

I don't even know where to start with this. Seeing whether a particular layout looks good (to you) at a particular resolution is not the scientific method. Applying pseudo-scientific terminology to your argument doesn't make you sound smart. Please, don't ever do science.

(I think we're pretty safe on that count though.)

Your example leaves out critical information, such as if I'd then had a reputable person saying, "Oh, hey I hear Sakurai enjoys that(smaller) ice cream shop's selection." At which point, I could reasonably assume that his favorite flavor is either chocolate or vanilla, because I have the smaller variable to limit uncertainty!

Oooookay...

So who was the reputable person who said "Oh hey, I hear Sakurai picked the roster size on the basis of the resolution of the 3DS screen?" Cuz otherwise I don't see what relevance that has to anything. I have heard no such information. The Gematsu leak says nothing of the sort.

If I see a dude with a fresh bite wound on his arm and see a dog with a bloody muzzle relatively nearby, [...]

You realize this example is not actually a formulation of Occam's Razor, right? I asked you to tell me what you think it means, not give me a contrived example.

Try again please.

HOLY HELL HE GETS IT. One 48-cell page for on-board CSS, one X-cell page for DLC(I can't speculate an amount).

Uhh... no. I was pointing out that you have said that a two-page CSS would be convenient. Which means that if it were two pages without DLC, you would think it was...?

You love to throw context quips around. You really couldn't decipher the context from what I'd said originally?

Like I said, I knew what you meant. I just suspected, correctly, that you wouldn't be able to stand being told you're wrong, about anything. You can't just say "Right, but you got what I meant." Even for something that trivial. That would not be escalating and insulting. *reads on* And you exceeded my expectations.

CHRIST I have never wanted to be able to punch someone through the Internet so much before, and I deal with Free Republic on a daily basis!

Calm yourself, dude. I know, I know. You wanted to throw out pseudo-scientific terminology to make yourself look good. And it's frustrating when people won't believe that you're smart because of it, especially when they actually know things (unlike Freepers).

How is READING(a process where you interpret information from written characters) and SEEING(a process where you interpret information from visual media) at all dissimilar from DECIPHERING(a process where you interpret information from arbitrary circumstances)?

Deciphering is about understanding. Seeing is not the same as understanding. You understand this distinction, yes? Taking more time and effort to physically see the menu is not the same as it being more difficult to understand.

It's not that complicated.

Read on in Part 2: Ebony Gets Banned!

Oh, I'm anxiously awaiting.

Oh. Here it is.

Part 2! Read to "Turn the Page" - Bob Seger

Now who has horrible taste?

The portraits on the CSS are the exact same thing as the words of a sentence.

No, they're not. You're just going to have to accept that, no, you do not know more about linguistic processing than someone who has spent years studying the subject. I know, like I said, it's hard to be told you're wrong, especially by people who know things. But accepting that there's a lot that you don't know will ultimately serve you well in life, because it opens you to learning.

The term is "Visual Literacy" for a reason.

Oh look, you have made another claim about language. Do you think that's wise?

Anyway, that is correct. There IS a reason. That reason would be that the term "literacy" originally referred to knowing how to read and write. Since it was the learned who were literate in the past, it also came to be associated with "educated", and from there with having skill in a particular area. The analogy is that they are both skills.

Not that they operate by the exact same processes.

It's people like you that infect visual media with the cancer that is modern design.

I'm not sure what this has to do with me mocking you for making silly claims about things that are within my field of expertise, but ok.

"Sure, just toss it in, there's no need for organization or flow! Who cares where it goes! Design isn't like an art medium or anything. People totally love getting HALF AN IMAGE and having to scroll to see the rest. Why's everyone so mad at 640x480 and bullseye design?"

I have to lol at this.

You're doing exactly what you're talking about. Telling me how language works, despite displaying no evidence of ever taking a linguistics course.

I have this information here(Gematsu Leak) that tells me there is a strong likelihood of 47 characters. This information has been proven correct eight times in a row.

That's not the content of the Gematsu leak. I don't know why you keep on stating these things as if they're just in there, when we can all go read SalRomano's posts and see that he never claimed such a thing.

Where's your evidence that 51 + Random's gonna happen? How many times was that correct?

I guess it's been proven correct eight times in a row. There's this information (Gematsu leak) that says there will be certain characters, and it doesn't say who else will be in, but I'm going to assume that it means that the roster I favor is in. As such, it has been proven correct eight times.

You have terrible taste in design. You also have no idea what it takes to make a good design.

What does this have to do with your menu-specific amnesia? I'm confused.

What is 'good enough' for you is probably standard formatting down the page in Times New Roman without regard to the weight or feel or the font or the circumstances around which you're designing.

Making up stories again. It's not nice to tell lies. Times New Roman is perfectly adequate for many things. Mostly things I don't care about.

But when writing a paper for submission to a journal, I use LaTeX, and adhere to the journal's style guidelines. Because, you know, I'm required to.

Drive designers cuckoo with these unworkable and unreadable fonts!

Someday, I want to get a t-shirt that says "Helvetica" in big letters... in Arial.

You have to design for the medium upon which you are working. If there is too much information to feasibly display on a single screen, then AND ONLY THEN do you scroll. NOTHING suggests that there is that much information for Smash that it would overwhelm a single-screen display on the 3DS, and my mockup shows the more likely occurance, 47 + random, fitting perfectly. Your move.

I don't even need to make a move. There's no evidence that there will be 47 + random, other than your assumption that Sakurai would choose the roster on the basis of the CSS.

That's been my argument the whole time. Not to say "Oh 51 characters is more likely!" or propose a particular roster. Just to point out that you're full of it.

Just fyi,

Your arrogant and insulting response just made me want to pick you apart and find all the ways you're wrong. I enjoy taking down those who are a little too full of themselves. Hence why I bother to point out that your knowledge of linguistics is nil. It's not particularly relevant to the topic, but you apparently can't help yourself but continue to claim that you're right, and I'm stupid, even when you're talking to someone with multiple graduate degrees in the field. I'm sorry, but no, you do not know more than me about it. Learn some humility and you'd be more persuasive. Learn to control your temper and people will like you a lot more.

You're not smarter than everybody else. When people disagree with you, it is not evidence of idiocy. If you think people don't care about design or listen to designers, look in the mirror. Do you think the way you behave would inspire anyone to seek the advice of a graphic designer? Seriously? I'd be amazed if you manage to hold down a job if this is how you behave when someone disagrees with you.

You want to punch me, over this stupid argument? Grow up.

 

[NintenRob]

Something to note, I starting to think Miis won't be a part of the standard roster, so even if we get 48 slots, we would still have another character.

Please look:

Customization button?

suspicious space after back button? lack of custom button?

What if Miis are not a part of the standard roster? Only two things are banned online. Custom Moves and Miis. What if you can select Miis the same way you select your name? I doubt that more then 4 would be cut and I REALLY doubt Ridley isn't playable with all this teasing, (the same kind of teasing Palutena had).

So If Miis are not part of the general select screen which they usually are, What do you think will be mystery character 48 @ EbonyRubberWolf ?

 

[RhymesWithEmpty]

Just on a purely personal level, I would like to mention that I have a Bachelors in Graphic Design, and all of this throwing around of the phrase "graphic designer," in this general context and also the way it's being treated by both parties... is kind of equal parts funny and sad.

I'm not saying this to take sides. Obviously I've been disagreeing with Ebony on several points here, but I can still see where he's coming from on certain others. However, any designer worth his salt is going to tell you that there are multiple solutions to most design problems. Different designers are going to bring different approaches, so I kind of wince every time graphic design is brought up in here as if it is one, singular point of view. As I'm sure Erimir is unquestionably frustrated when matters of linguistics are discussed in such a trivial manner. Point is, let's leave our personal professions out of it, shall we?

@ NintenRob - Ah, man, can't believe I forgot about the theory of Miis getting their own unique CSS option - I was really banking on that, actually, haha. And that would open it back up to 48 character icons. I'm betting on Mewtwo, personally. Could be Ridley, but I'm very much on the fence about his chances.

Also, the CSS in that screenshot appears to span the full screen from what I can tell. That dark grey boarder around the outside is not part of the active screen, if that's what you were thinking, @ EbonyRubberWolf - unless that is an inaccurate mockup. If only I'd gone to the Best Buy events myself!

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Spoiler

And once they're downloaded, they're available... now.

That's still after the on-board characters. SOMEONE has to be displayed first.

It might be fewer button presses, but it is not necessarily that much easier to find them when they're so tiny. Not everybody agrees with you that those boxes are the right size, not everybody has the same eyesight as you.
You're writing these super long posts, but a second or two on the CSS screen (during which you might be still making your decision anyway) relative to a 5 or 6 minute match, oh that's gonna add up.

Death by a thousand cuts. Frustration by a thousand seconds. It builds, especially in situations where you are trying out new things or having to reselect characters after defeat/game over/whatever. The less buttons you have to press to get back in the action, the better.

As I explicitly said, I was showing you what you sound like when you say "Pro-tip: Thing irrelevant to what you were saying."

Look at what I wrote: "Does this, in itself, form an argument? No. Does it prove anything really? No. Am I saying it anyway, for no reason? Well, actually, no. I'm doing it to help you understand what you sound like."

Yet you have responded as if I had claimed this was an important argument. Oh, you sure showed me. That statement I made, that I explicitly said didn't prove anything, you showed that it doesn't prove anything. Ya got me. You're so sharp.

Like, seriously, I was kinda joking before, but do you have a problem with actually reading things before you respond?

Fine. I'll type slow. Maybe you'll get what I'm after this time.

Do. You. Think. That. 48. Items. On. One. Screen. Provide. More. Or. Less. Information. Than. 20. Items. On. One. Screen.

THAT'S what I mean by instant information.

Well, I dunno about you, but I want to buy Super Smash Bros, not Super Menu Design Bros.

Yes, the primary content of the game is "it".

Like, are you really incredulous that I (or anyone else) would prefer more characters in Smash, or more courses in Mario Kart even if it makes the menu slightly less pretty?

Are you actually a gamer, or just a menu fetishist? Cuz most people care more about the game than the menu.

I find it rather enraging that people think that the roster is so large because of bad design. Or that a scrolling menu is a good thing when viewing a larger document. Do you never zoom out on pictures to see them for their whole, just scroll around on 100% size? Explains the eyesight trouble, I suppose. Oh, and don't think I didn't spot that Ridley support icon in your sig. I should just abandon all hope of convincing you of anything reasonable upon seeing that mark of shame.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai doesn't give a **** about your opinion. I'm sure he would come up with a good design if he chose to put in more than 47 characters, regardless of your own incapability to do so.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do. I've never once said anything of that sort. What I have said is, based on the evidence we have available as well as the math and fundamentals of design, that this is the solution that was chosen to fit the game.

You were claiming the 3DS would be a bottleneck - specifically in regards to the size of the roster. That has nothing to do with HD uncompressed textures or sound options. Nothing whatsoever. It is something you made up to put in my mouth so that you could attempt to look smarter. But it just makes you look dishonest.

The fact is that 3DS cartridges have plenty of storage, and they could easily hold a very large roster without running out of memory. Do you actually disagree with that, or do you want to childishly pretend I said it could hold hours of Blu-Ray movies?

When did I bring up storage space at all? I'm talking about DISPLAY RESOLUTION. Y'know, the value that determines the magic colors your display throws at your seeing balls. THAT is the bottleneck of the 3DS versus the Wii U, which needs to be resolved in order to show the roster of the game.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I haven't seen any statement from him saying that he decided to stop working on Mewtwo so as to maintain his menu design, for example. You haven't either, or I imagine you would've said something.

Oh, I've got my theory on Mewtwo's exclusion. It's not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.

In Melee he did not force the roster to fit in a perfect rectangle. So it is obvious that he does not necessarily force the roster to fit that way.

64 was a perfect rectangle. Brawl as a perfect rectangle. He likely went back to what works best for maximum display. Because it makes sense.

Gematsu does not claim to be a complete roster, to be all the newcomers, or anything else. If you have a statement from SalRomano that that is the case, you can bring it up. I don't dispute the Gematsu leak's credibility. You, on the other hand, are claiming that it means things that were never claimed by SalRomano and that these things are proven.

The math adds up. We KNOW Ivysaur and Squirtle are gone. Snake is all but gone. If you believe the Gematsu leak, then that means Lucas is probably gone too.

So where is the problem? What is the goddamned malfunction?

I knew what you meant. I just pointed out that you used the word incorrectly. And you reacted exactly as I thought you would.
I think I'm doing a pretty good job of remaining civil in such conditions.

I'm just going to get off of this track because it's a tangent that is getting stupider with every word contributed to it.

"Why not?" is not an argument. He is free to deviate from the perfect rectangle if he pleases. You are the one making the claim, you have to support it. You don't just say "Why not?"
It's almost like he wasn't picking the roster just to maintain a particular menu design.

Nice that you cut out the remainder of my sentence there. See? This is why I like preserving context in quotes. I made the claim, and I supported the claim. Now it's your turn to refute it. Prove to me that there will be more than 47 characters, OR that the screen will scroll. Go on. I can't wait.

Yes, but that's not a scientific experiment. I mean, unless you think I'm doing an experiment when I design a PowerPoint. Which just dilutes the idea into meaninglessness.
I don't even know where to start with this. Seeing whether a particular layout looks good (to you) at a particular resolution is not the scientific method. Applying pseudo-scientific terminology to your argument doesn't make you sound smart. Please, don't ever do science.

(I think we're pretty safe on that count though.)

Oh for God's sake.. Whatever you say. This is like arguing with a brick wall at this point.

So who was the reputable person who said "Oh hey, I hear Sakurai picked the roster size on the basis of the resolution of the 3DS screen?" Cuz otherwise I don't see what relevance that has to anything. I have heard no such information. The Gematsu leak says nothing of the sort.

Gematsu says Lucas is likely gone. Given that Snake, Ivy, and Squirts are pretty much gone as well(or are you someone that actually holds out hope for Ivysaur/Squirtle?), that makes the numbers line up.

You realize this example is not actually a formulation of Occam's Razor, right? I asked you to tell me what you think it means, not give me a contrived example.

Try again please.

I'm done with this tangent. I'm about to just leave the wikipedia link here because God knows I'm out of patience to deal with this garbage.

Uhh... no. I was pointing out that you have said that a two-page CSS would be convenient. Which means that if it were two pages without DLC, you would think it was...?

Bad design. DLC and on-board characters are different beasts by virtue of category. It'd be a simpler system to simply exclude DLC from the primary roster.

Like I said, I knew what you meant. I just suspected, correctly, that you wouldn't be able to stand being told you're wrong, about anything. You can't just say "Right, but you got what I meant." Even for something that trivial.

Right, because condescending arrogance is something that people really want to let slide and say, "Oh, yeah man, that's all good." No. It's not all good.

Calm yourself, dude. I know, I know. You wanted to throw out pseudo-scientific terminology to make yourself look good. And it's frustrating when people won't believe that you're smart because of it, especially when they actually know things (unlike Freepers).

Just gonna leave this right here, let it fester for a bit...

Deciphering is about understanding. Seeing is not the same as understanding. You understand this distinction, yes? Taking more time and effort to physically see the menu is not the same as it being more difficult to understand.

Holy hell. Okay, do you LISTEN to a foreign language or DECIPHER a foreign language? Maybe this'll give some insight as to that thought process you keep bragging on about.

Now who has horrible taste?

No, they're not. You're just going to have to accept that, no, you do not know more about linguistic processing than someone who has spent years studying the subject. I know, like I said, it's hard to be told you're wrong, especially by people who know things. But accepting that there's a lot that you don't know will ultimately serve you well in life, because it opens you to learning.

Design a spreadsheet. Design a newspaper ad. Design an actual menu that people will need to interface with. Do you know Quark? Where's the eye going to go on a particular document? What about the hierarchy of information in a document? Where is the eye going to rest? Where is the reader going to finish? Why a serif versus a sans-serif? Does the typeface itself convey a mood? Are there guiding lines in the copy or the negative space? How can you manipulate the viewer into looking where you want them to when you want them to?

There is as much literacy involved in visual design as there is in the thickest novel.

Somehow I doubt any of that even penetrates into your thick skull.

Oh look, you have made another claim about language. Do you think that's wise?

Neat, more self-inflated egotism.

Anyway, that is correct. There IS a reason. That reason would be that the term "literacy" originally referred to knowing how to read and write. Since it was the learned who were literate in the past, it also came to be associated with "educated", and from there with having skill in a particular area. The analogy is that they are both skills.

Not that they operate by the exact same processes.

Now it's obvious to me you've never taken a design course, maybe not even an art course. Visual literacy is a vast subject that deals with the human psychology of how we interpret, or rather, decipher what we see. It is an exploration of the biological responses provoked. It is a study of the sociological condition. It is the study of how the shapes formed by typefaces become more meaningful that the type itself. It's the reason why aspect ratios exist. It's the reason why font sizes are standardized. It's why Impact is made fun of. Have you ever heard of the FedEx arrow? It's considered genius because it was able to use visual literacy to tell a story in a simple and surprisingly direct manner. Yet all they typed was the name of the company.

All you know how to do is punch buttons on a keyboard. Congrats, you're really swimming with the big boys now.

I'm not sure what this has to do with me mocking you for making silly claims about things that are within my field of expertise, but ok.

Because you have no understanding of what type and design IS. Then I get to hear you belittle it because 'the written word is paramount'. So much fun.

I have to lol at this.

You're doing exactly what you're talking about. Telling me how language works, despite displaying no evidence of ever taking a linguistics course.

Because you're totally illiterate when it comes to visual literacy! Oh, but you can write and study and ton of words. Neat! This isn't a written language, this is a visual language. Or do you really think the whole left-to-right deal is just 'something that happens'.

That's not the content of the Gematsu leak. I don't know why you keep on stating these things as if they're just in there, when we can all go read SalRomano's posts and see that he never claimed such a thing.

I've covered this already above. I presume that Snake, Lucas, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are gone, because it makes sense.

I guess it's been proven correct eight times in a row. There's this information (Gematsu leak) that says there will be certain characters, and it doesn't say who else will be in, but I'm going to assume that it means that the roster I favor is in. As such, it has been proven correct eight times.

Do you favor a roster with Lucas? 'Cause I've got some bad tidings...

I don't even need to make a move. There's no evidence that there will be 47 + random, other than your assumption that Sakurai would choose the roster on the basis of the CSS.

That's been my argument the whole time. Not to say "Oh 51 characters is more likely!" or propose a particular roster. Just to point out that you're full of it.

Except, you know, the loss of PT(Ivy/Squirtle), the likely loss of Snake, and the likely loss of Lucas.

Just fyi,

Your arrogant and insulting response just made me want to pick you apart and find all the ways you're wrong. I enjoy taking down those who are a little too full of themselves. Hence why I bother to point out that your knowledge of linguistics is nil. It's not particularly relevant to the topic, but you apparently can't help yourself but continue to claim that you're right, and I'm stupid, even when you're talking to someone with multiple graduate degrees in the field. I'm sorry, but no, you do not know more than me about it. Learn some humility and you'd be more persuasive. Learn to control your temper and people will like you a lot more.

You claim that, I dunno, written literacy is all that matters, when the only reason written literacy exists is because of visual literacy as a larger paradigm of study. There had to be reasons for the evolution of the written word. Every character in every language had typographic studies done upon it to determine readability, whether it was informative, and what the shape of the character itself would become. Sociological impacts have also arisen and can be studied by the use of a SINGLE LETTER or even the negative space WITHIN that letter. Point at a red 'S' in a serifed and people may think "Superman". You'd just interpret it as an 'S'.

You're not smarter than everybody else. When people disagree with you, it is not evidence of idiocy. If you think people don't care about design or listen to designers, look in the mirror. Do you think the way you behave would inspire anyone to seek the advice of a graphic designer? Seriously? I'd be amazed if you manage to hold down a job if this is how you behave when someone disagrees with you.

An aloof and rather self-absorbed ego doesn't do much to engender controlled responses. Especially when the owner of that ego goes on at length about things they know nothing about, as demonstrated by your complete ineptitude when it comes to addressing and proposing design. Stick to what you do and don't comment on design aesthetic.

You want to punch me, over this stupid argument? Grow up.

It would be the wrong thing to do, yeah.

But damn it'd be satisfying.

How about this? I want you gone, and you want me gone. You and me, we'll make a bet. Mods, I want you all to notice this.

If the 47 characters + random roster is proven false, OR the CSS on the 3DS turns out to be scrolling, I will accept a permanent ban with no contest and leave for good. Hell, I'll even go further and say that Gematsu + Rosalina + Brawl cast minus Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Lucas is IT. That means if even ONE character squeaks in that's not on that list, I'm gone for good. If, however, it turns out to be the case that I'm right, then you're gone. Forever. Either way, I'd say we both win.

You game?

Just on a purely personal level, I would like to mention that I have a Bachelors in Graphic Design, and all of this throwing around of the phrase "graphic designer," in this general context and also the way it's being treated by both parties... is kind of equal parts funny and sad.

I'm not saying this to take sides. Obviously I've been disagreeing with Ebony on several points here, but I can still see where he's coming from on certain others. However, any designer worth his salt is going to tell you that there are multiple solutions to most design problems. Different designers are going to bring different approaches, so I kind of wince every time graphic design is brought up in here as if it is one, singular point of view. As I'm sure Erimir is unquestionably frustrated when matters of linguistics are discussed in such a trivial manner. Point is, let's leave our personal professions out of it, shall we?

@ NintenRob - Ah, man, can't believe I forgot about the theory of Miis getting their own unique CSS option - I was really banking on that, actually, haha. And that would open it back up to 48 character icons. I'm betting on Mewtwo, personally. Could be Ridley, but I'm very much on the fence about his chances.

Also, the CSS in that screenshot appears to span the full screen from what I can tell. That dark grey boarder around the outside is not part of the active screen, if that's what you were thinking, @ EbonyRubberWolf - unless that is an inaccurate mockup. If only I'd gone to the Best Buy events myself!

Screen use isn't maximized because there's still open space in the bottom corners. What happens when those get filled and another slot tries to appear is essentially the crux of the argument. I argue that the icons will resize themselves to accommodate the new icons. This only works if you believe that Gematsu + Rosalina + Brawl vets - Snake, Ivy, Squirtle, and Lucas is reality. Others argue that the icons will just go off to a side resulting in no resize. That only works... Well, I guess it works in any other circumstance where the first is wrong. I'll refrain from posting my thoughts on such an action here as I believe the prior posts have quite exhaustively covered the subject. If I'm wrong, I'll probably drop dead from the shock and confusion, so the permaban won't be too bad anyway.

Something to note, I starting to think Miis won't be a part of the standard roster, so even if we get 48 slots, we would still have another character.

Please look:What do you think will be mystery character 48 @ EbonyRubberWolf ?

That's a design choice that I would think doesn't(or shouldn't, rather) make much sense, simply because it's inconsistent. Not that I'm thrilled with the idea that Miis are 'unique snowflakes' in regards to online play.

As far as character 48, I dunno. Sky's the limit at that point because it proves there are no rules when it comes to the CSS. I don't really care after that point because speculation would be useless and I'd want no part of it.

 

[Neo Zero]

This isn't Gamefaqs, people don't do account bets. Take your childish squabbling to PMs, no one wants to see it.

I have an odd question btw. When Brawl had its demo, did anyone try to figure out how many slots it could hold? The reason I ask is for clarity, perhaps there's something missing from this picture than wasnt missing from there. It just feels like we're arguing in circles about something we don't fully understand yet.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

This isn't Gamefaqs, people don't do account bets. Take your childish squabbling to PMs, no one wants to see it.

I have an odd question btw. When Brawl had its demo, did anyone try to figure out how many slots it could hold? The reason I ask is for clarity, perhaps there's something missing from this picture than wasnt missing from there. It just feels like we're arguing in circles about something we don't fully understand yet.

Assuming the boxes remain identical in size, 24 seems to be the maximum before something has to happen(4 rows of 6). I don't really know what else to look for, though. Everything else seems fine enough.

 

[Neo Zero]

I know Brawls boxes scaled down, but did Melee's also? Considering this CSS seems closer to Melee, perhaps that'd be the better comparison point

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

They don't appear to have.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well the 3ds will have a scroll down for 47 or 51.

And theres a problem for the 47 roster peoples

What if one of these guys gets confirmedw. (Ridley, mewtwo, king k roll.)

I bet your goijg to have a giga hard time making a 47 character roster.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Well the 3ds will have a scroll down for 47 or 51.

And theres a problem for the 47 roster peoples

What if one of these guys gets confirmedw. (Ridley, mewtwo, king k roll.)

I bet your goijg to have a giga hard time making a 47 character roster.

The idea is that they don't get confiirmed, and in the case of 47, it won't scroll.

 

[Hong]

@ Erimir @ EbonyRubberWolf
Having an argument is perfectly okay, but when you start to attack each other's character, it becomes baggage that no topic would ever ask for. Keep it civil.

How about this? I want you gone, and you want me gone. You and me, we'll make a bet. Mods, I want you all to notice this.

If the 47 characters + random roster is proven false, OR the CSS on the 3DS turns out to be scrolling, I will accept a permanent ban with no contest and leave for good. Hell, I'll even go further and say that Gematsu + Rosalina + Brawl cast minus Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Lucas is IT. That means if even ONE character squeaks in that's not on that list, I'm gone for good. If, however, it turns out to be the case that I'm right, then you're gone. Forever. Either way, I'd say we both win.

You game?

No game. If you are going to form unnecessary conditions for yourself to fulfill because of pride, you do that on your own accord. If you want a ban, SmashBoards does offer User Requested Bans. Simply message a moderator and we'll have that arranged. That aside, we're not keeping track of user-specific gambles they make on their own accord, and public wagering of forum permission is just being a little silly.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

The idea is that they don't get confiirmed, and in the case of 47, it won't scroll.

Ok yep if they are gone your 47 character roster may be it.

(Just a heads up though its going to be a big matzoh ball if the august direct is on the 6th)

 

[mahnamahna]

Just can't see Sakurai letting the ENTIRE roster leak out already... I'm inclined to lean towards 51 - 4 of which no leaker knows about since they'd all be hidden/unlockable.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Just can't see Sakurai letting the ENTIRE roster leak out already... I'm inclined to lean towards 51 - 4 of which no leaker knows about since they'd all be hidden/unlockable.

I get a feeling that Sakurai(almost typed Markiplier because I binged on his Knock Knock playthrough) may mean more than he let on when he announced his dislike of being spoiled. Not just cutscenes, but secrets as well. Plus, is it really within Sakurai's power to prevent his secrets from leaking out?

 

[mahnamahna]

I get a feeling that Sakurai(almost typed Markiplier because I binged on his Knock Knock playthrough) may mean more than he let on when he announced his dislike of being spoiled. Not just cutscenes, but secrets as well. Plus, is it really within Sakurai's power to prevent his secrets from leaking out?

If they're unlockable characters, he probably does. I understand starters/3rd parties getting leaked, but I just can't see Sakurai letting Mewtwo, Ridley or King K. Rool out of the bag if they're in the game. He'd just make them hidden (probably also make them the three most difficult to unlock). Of course, this is me being hopeful that there's still a few surprises left as far as the roster goes.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

If they're unlockable characters, he probably does. I understand starters/3rd parties getting leaked, but I just can't see Sakurai letting Mewtwo, Ridley or King K. Rool out of the bag if they're in the game. He'd just make them hidden (probably also make them the three most difficult to unlock). Of course, this is me being hopeful that there's still a few surprises left as far as the roster goes.

I'm not sure there will even be unlockable characters in the game, truth be told.. Stages, songs, trophies, those'll be tucked away in places, but I think it'll be a rather un-hidden roster. Guess we'll know soon enough.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I'm not sure there will even be unlockable characters in the game, truth be told.. Stages, songs, trophies, those'll be tucked away in places, but I think it'll be a rather un-hidden roster. Guess we'll know soon enough.

Well, if we're expecting at least 47 characters, then there's 14+ that we haven't seen. There's only 12 weeks until the Japanese release; I'd say at most we'll see 5 more before then.

Considering the difference between the 3DS/Wii U rosters for the demo, I'm wondering if the starting roster will be different for each game. There's every possibility that plenty of the characters that we've seen will need to be unlocked in the 3DS version.

 

[Mars-]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but are Miis necessarily going to use a slot? I could see them being selected the same way as name tags.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but are Miis necessarily going to use a slot? I could see them being selected the same way as name tags.

I dunno, purely from a design perspective it would be easiest to give them a normal slot. Otherwise, you'd risk confusing people with complicated menus. Still, you never know with Sakurai.

I find myself wondering if there's going to be default builds for the Miis. They share a special move pool, but is there a standard setup you can get if you pick one without customisation? We don't really have enough information there.

 

[Mega Hawlucha]

I dunno, purely from a design perspective it would be easiest to give them a normal slot. Otherwise, you'd risk confusing people with complicated menus. Still, you never know with Sakurai.

I find myself wondering if there's going to be default builds for the Miis. They share a special move pool, but is there a standard setup you can get if you pick one without customisation? We don't really have enough information there.

Considering they've received the boot from the online, I doubt it, else the standard setup would be allowed online.

 

[SmashChu]

Looking at the post right now, it says characters. And that would be a very loose interpretation. I'd like to think nobody would be stupid enough to count the random slot as a character. Could have been a miscommunication between the leaker and their informant, but still, it definitely says 48 characters.

So now we're believing some dude who randomly says numbers? Have we sunken so low.

 

[Erimir]

@ EbonyRubberWolf

You didn't really take my advice. Oh well. Click the spoiler.

Spoiler

I find it rather enraging that people think that the roster is so large because of bad design.

...Why? That's just strange.

Oh, and don't think I didn't spot that Ridley support icon in your sig. I should just abandon all hope of convincing you of anything reasonable upon seeing that mark of shame.

I didn't think about whether you looked at it, because it is, you know, irrelevant. Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do. I've never once said anything of that sort. What I have said is, based on the evidence we have available as well as the math and fundamentals of design, that this is the solution that was chosen to fit the game.

Your certainty is what the problem is. If it's not impossible, then why do you think it is so certain that there are 47 characters? If Sakurai wants to add more characters (just like he added Rosalina, despite her not being in the Gematsu leak), he will do so, and he will design a menu that works for it.

I'm talking about DISPLAY RESOLUTION. [...] THAT is the bottleneck of the 3DS versus the Wii U, which needs to be resolved in order to show the roster of the game.

You said that the 3DS is the "weaker of the two". Generally when talking about computers, when you say "weaker" you are talking about the processing power and memory, not the resolution of the display.

64 was a perfect rectangle. Brawl as a perfect rectangle. He likely went back to what works best for maximum display. Because it makes sense.

In other words, you are assuming, and then claiming your assumption is rock-solid evidence. It is not.

Nice that you cut out the remainder of my sentence there. See? This is why I like preserving context in quotes. I made the claim, and I supported the claim.

All I saw was a pack of assumptions and hand-waving away the example of Melee. Not much support.

Prove to me that there will be more than 47 characters, OR that the screen will scroll. Go on. I can't wait.

I never claimed either of those things. I only claimed that you were wrong to be so certain, and that it's possible there are more than 47 characters and that there are alternative CSS designs that could be used.

Gematsu says Lucas is likely gone. Given that Snake, Ivy, and Squirts are pretty much gone as well(or are you someone that actually holds out hope for Ivysaur/Squirtle?), that makes the numbers line up.

I don't think Ivysaur or Squirtle are likely to return. I think Snake has a good chance of being cut. But not a guarantee. Kojima's statements about it are not very informative. If Snake was in, he would have to make vague statements about it, he wouldn't be allowed to confirm his inclusion before Sakurai.

To be honest, I don't even want Snake to be in the game. I don't think he belongs in a game for Nintendo all-stars. He'd be more at home in Playstation All-Stars.

I'm done with this tangent. I'm about to just leave the wikipedia link here because God knows I'm out of patience to deal with this garbage.

What link?

If you read the Wikipedia article, you would know that Occam's Razor wasn't really applicable to what we were talking about.

Bad design. DLC and on-board characters are different beasts by virtue of category.

Why? If I've had a DLC character for 2 years, why would I consider them different? For my purposes as a player, they are like any other.

That does depend a little bit on the way they're implemented of course (if they don't have customizable moves, say, or they can't be used With Anyone, vs. if other players receive patches to enable them to work online with people who don't have them, etc.). If they're fully functional, then the distinction will not be of much relevance to me after I've had them for a while.

Right, because condescending arrogance is something that people really want to let slide and say, "Oh, yeah man, that's all good." No. It's not all good.

You get what you give. I've been far more respectful than you, even so. If you show respect, I will too. I am a reasonable man that way.

Just gonna leave this right here, let it fester for a bit...

Hey, I'm not the one who's getting the urge for violence here. You can fester for a bit, whereas I am cool and collected.

Holy hell. Okay, do you LISTEN to a foreign language or DECIPHER a foreign language? Maybe this'll give some insight as to that thought process you keep bragging on about.

You can do both, obviously. In speech, you have to listen to it first. Understanding it requires parsing it phonemically, morphologically, syntactically, etc. Each of those processes could be called deciphering. I am able to listen to a foreign language without deciphering it, and I can also decipher a foreign language without listening to it.

I would not say that my computer has deciphered my speech by simply recording it, which is what would be akin to listening.

There is as much literacy involved in visual design as there is in the thickest novel.

What are you using "literacy" to mean in this sentence? I mean, I get you want to say that there's a lot involved in the discipline, but that's strange diction.

There is as much literacy involved in visual design as there is in the thickest novel. Somehow I doubt any of that even penetrates into your thick skull.

I never said there wasn't. Hence why you won't see me claiming that you're wrong about how to use Quark, or about avoiding rivers in typesetting, or whatever.

Now it's obvious to me you've never taken a design course, maybe not even an art course. Visual literacy is a vast subject that deals with the human psychology of how we interpret, or rather, decipher what we see.

None of which means that visual processing and linguistic processing operate by the same mechanisms. Try to keep the thread. This whole paragraph is irrelevant to what it is ostensibly replying to.

It is an exploration of the biological responses provoked. It is a study of the sociological condition. It is the study of how the shapes formed by typefaces become more meaningful that the type itself.

Now you're starting to get a bit pretentious.

While you can, no doubt, get insight into sociology by studying design, most of it is irrelevant to sociology (or at least, no more relevant than other disciplines). Or it is in the sense that fashion is a study of the sociological condition, and linguistics is a study of the sociological condition, and music is a study of the sociological condition, and literary criticism is a study of the sociological condition, etc. etc.

Have you ever heard of the FedEx arrow?

No. I have never seen the arrow in the negative space between the E and X in FedEx. Please explain it to me

All you know how to do is punch buttons on a keyboard. Congrats, you're really swimming with the big boys now.

I like how you're trying to do the same thing I did to you... The only problem being that when I demonstrated my knowledge of linguistics or statistics, it was in response to specific things you said relevant to the fields. Not just randomly spouting off about how important graphic design is in response to the etymology of "literacy".

Then I get to hear you belittle it because 'the written word is paramount'. So much fun.

That's funny, because I don't think I ever said that. It's weird how you make up so many things I argued that I never argued. I feel like there's a word for that...

In fact, I tend to have a more phonocentric outlook when it comes to writing vs. speech.

Because you're totally illiterate when it comes to visual literacy! Oh, but you can write and study and ton of words. Neat! This isn't a written language, this is a visual language. Or do you really think the whole left-to-right deal is just 'something that happens'.

It is influenced by the direction of the writing system in the culture. Hence why on Arabic Wikipedia, for example, the search bars and so forth are flipped from English Wikipedia.

We're on the same page that "left-to-right" isn't universal, right?

I've covered this already above. I presume that Snake, Lucas, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are gone, because it makes sense.

That isn't actually evidence though.

Lots of things would make sense that are nonetheless not true.

You claim that, I dunno, written literacy is all that matters,

I never said anything remotely resembling that. There aren't really any positive explanations for why you constantly claim I said things that I did not.

There had to be reasons for the evolution of the written word.

Yes, things do tend to happen for reasons.

Every character in every language had typographic studies done upon it to determine readability, whether it was informative, and what the shape of the character itself would become.

Uhhhh... What?

You think writing systems came to be because of typographic studies? Have you seen English spelling? Do you know why it is the way it is?

As it turns out, I do, because I have studied the history of the English language. So I'll give you an example. English used to have more letters, and different spelling conventions. There were the letters thorn <þ> and eth <ð>, which represented the two sounds of <th> (the sound in "the" and the sound in "think"). They are no longer in the language because when the printing press spread to England, they imported presses from continental Europe - where they didn't use those letters. As a result, they ended up being replaced by <th>. <th> had already begun creeping into use due to influence from the Normans, but this was the death blow. However, for a while there were some alternative spellings going around... Specifically one you might have seen is the use of <y> to represent <þ>, since in handwriting they looked similar. We still see this today in signs such as "Ye Olde Shoppe". The word "ye" there... is "the". It's really just "The Old Shop." In the 1500s, that would've been pronounced like "the", but people today are unaware that it simply means "the" and hence pronounce it like the pronoun "ye".

Now, where did the typographic studies come into these changes? They didn't. It was just based on limitations of the printing press and the historical accident that English used these letters while languages like German did not.

But more generally, you're missing the fact that language production has two sides: speaker and hearer, writer and reader. Much of the evolution of writing systems (as well as language generally) has to do with the production side of things. Changes to glyphs and writing systems that make them easier to write, but not necessarily easier to read, are common. This is why <þ> became more similar to <y> - not because that made things clearer or more informative. These changes happened organically over time. Most of that time, it happened among a small group of people (the literate upper classes and clergy) who were not necessarily concerned with what was the most readable for the most people.

Similarly, changes to speech are frequently motivated by what makes things easier for the speaker, not what makes things easier for the hearer.

If all you mean is that "fonts are thoughtfully designed by typographers", then sure. If you're trying to link them or "typographical studies" to the creation of writing systems that those fonts are created for, writing systems that have their origins thousands of years ago, and which evolved over the centuries long before "typographer" or "graphic designer' would've been professions... You're going to have to actually reference some history to make that argument.

I do like how you keep trying to encroach upon my field though, again and again. It's not going very well for you.

Sociological impacts have also arisen and can be studied by the use of a SINGLE LETTER or even the negative space WITHIN that letter.

I'm curious what profound social impacts you're talking about. Really. Link me to a paper about it, and I'll look at it. I have access to plenty of academic journals, so don't worry about that.

Point at a red 'S' in a serifed and people may think "Superman". You'd just interpret it as an 'S'.

An aloof and rather self-absorbed ego doesn't do much to engender controlled responses.

I never said I was trying to coddle and calm you. But the only person who controls you is you.

How about this? I want you gone, and you want me gone.

Actually, you want me gone, and I don't care what you do.

You and me, we'll make a bet.

Yeah... but no.

 

[Starphoenix]

Ebony, Emrir: listen to Hong and move on. Don't be the reasons this thread gets closed.

 

[Deoxys911]

This probably doesn't mean anything, but if you completely filled the 3DS screen with character slots of the exact same size as seen in the demo, there would be room for 24, half of 48.

 

[IronFish]

This probably doesn't mean anything, but if you completely filled the 3DS screen with character slots of the exact same size as seen in the demo, there would be room for 24, half of 48.

If both screens are full of squares you would have no room to show what characters your opponents have picked things.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

This probably doesn't mean anything, but if you completely filled the 3DS screen with character slots of the exact same size as seen in the demo, there would be room for 24, half of 48.

An interesting notion, but it doesn't prove much, sadly. If the space is fully utilized, and it's 6x4 characters, that sets it to.. ~66.67x60px. It doesn't confirm or support either theory.

 

[Neo Zero]

I was thinking. Isn't it a bit odd how the demo is laid out? I mean, every menu is on the top screen....of a DS game. I mean, you'd think it'd be much more natural to make all selection on the bottom screen. I was just thinking, maybe the menus and CSS will be moved to the bottom screen in the final version (complete with an actual nice CSS instead of just boxes) and then when a match starts they can bring up the usual fighter bottom screen display. I know past Smash Bros demos haven't changed drastically to the final version, but this just seems...odd not to use the touch screen for this stuff.

Plus with the Customization option missing, as well as the various other menu options (in the Wii U version you can at least figure out where they would be), it just feels like it could change.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I think that's more so that you can manipulate CPU control and toggles. IE, the player decides "I wanna see four CPs fight" or "I just wanna fight 1 CP". Plus, handicap settings and other features attributed to the other parts of the CSS.

 

[Neo Zero]

I think that's more so that you can manipulate CPU control and toggles. IE, the player decides "I wanna see four CPs fight" or "I just wanna fight 1 CP". Plus, handicap settings and other features attributed to the other parts of the CSS.

I suppose, but couldn't they just put it on the top screen, then when a match is loading, shift it to the bottom?

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I suppose, but couldn't they just put it on the top screen, then when a match is loading, shift it to the bottom?

I think they'd prioritize the bottom screen for that because there are more interactions to do down there. With regard to the top, it really would only need to display the CSS. Nevermind that the bottom screen offers even less space to display things, and wouldn't even be able to hold the demo's layout.

 

[Neo Zero]

I think they'd prioritize the bottom screen for that because there are more interactions to do down there. With regard to the top, it really would only need to display the CSS. Nevermind that the bottom screen offers even less space to display things, and wouldn't even be able to hold the demo's layout.

Maybe I'm just so used to using the touch screen for menus lol. Still, I do kinda expect something that isn't just blocks on a black BG.

 

[RhymesWithEmpty]

So now we're believing some dude who randomly says numbers? Have we sunken so low.

Well, he also leaked stuff about Mario Kart 8 that sort of came true I guess? I'm not totally sure. It kind of hinges on that, although it's interesting that it could potentially line up with Sal's leaks.

 

[Deoxys911]

Another observation I made that perhaps gives a little more insight into what to expect in the final game is how the layout would look if the slots retained their size and implied order after all characters were unlocked:

Beside the fact that a LOT of characters are missing, we can see that they will have to have more columns than in the demo or face awkward row leaders. Even if they found three characters to push Link to the front of the next row down, that would then make ZSS start the following row. Nothing new, but just something to chew on and possibly give some people some new ideas.

 

[Angelglory]

Another observation I made that perhaps gives a little more insight into what to expect in the final game is how the layout would look if the slots retained their size and implied order after all characters were unlocked:View attachment 16724
Beside the fact that a LOT of characters are missing, we can see that they will have to have more columns than in the demo or face awkward row leaders. Even if they found three characters to push Link to the front of the next row down, that would then make ZSS start the following row. Nothing new, but just something to chew on and possibly give some people some new ideas.

Well that's where single reps come in. I've got these two pics as examples from earlier with both vertical and horizontal scrolling.

Spoiler

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Another observation I made that perhaps gives a little more insight into what to expect in the final game is how the layout would look if the slots retained their size and implied order after all characters were unlocked:View attachment 16724
Beside the fact that a LOT of characters are missing, we can see that they will have to have more columns than in the demo or face awkward row leaders. Even if they found three characters to push Link to the front of the next row down, that would then make ZSS start the following row. Nothing new, but just something to chew on and possibly give some people some new ideas.

Yeah, a situation with no Pokemon present on the CSS? That seems very strange.

 

[Jumpman84]

No offense to anyone here, but where are you guys getting your numbers? 47 and 51? Neither of these numbers make any mathematical sense! You guys need to double check your work.

My calculations give us a roster between 49-59 characters. I believe 59 is the most likely, but I'll let you guys see my "math proof" of sorts that I posted in another topic. You guys be the judge...

Actually, by my calculations, I estimate that we'll get 59 characters at the very maximum. Outrageous, you say? On the contrary, it's actually quite logical.

[collapse=My calculated method of roster size.]

The N64 version had two rows, and six columns, to make twelve characters.

Melee had three rows and nine columns, giving us a potential of 27 characters. We only got 26, though. (25, if you only go by character boxes.) Another thing to note is that the six clones added at the last minute gave us a bigger size. Had they not been added, we would have three rows and seven columns, with only 19 character boxes.

Brawl gave us four rows and nine columns, with the potential of 36 character slots. Though we got 35 character slots plus the random box to fill in the blanks, we got 39 thanks to transformations.

As for Smash 4, let's start off with the rosters we saw on the Wii U and 3DS demos.

Now, ignoring the strange layout of these demo rosters (Greninja before Pikachu? What were they smokin!), Some things become clear.

The Wii U's demo has three rows and eight columns while the 3DS's demo has four rows and six columns. Let's assume that the roster layouts will be the same in each version. By taking the highest values, we got four rows and eight columns to make 32.

First off, we need to combine our two rosters together.

Next, we'll fill in the blanks with characters confirmed for Smash 4.

So the roster's filled up, but poor Palutena and Pac-Man are out in the cold. The solution is simple: one more column and the roster size is equal to Brawl.

As you'll notice, we have two empty slots. Here's where we get into the speculation part of this. We'll start off by adding the two most obvious veterans.

Now comes the math part. Each Smash game since the original has added one extra row of characters. 2 to 3 to 4. Therefore, we can conclude that this Smash will have five rows, at most. With this in mind, we have nine more characters to add in, bringing us up to 44.

(Please note that all roster decisions reflect my views on characters and should be treated as such.)

Now with that done, let's look at columns. We had six in the original, which got bumped up to nine in Melee (originally meant to be seven), and stayed at nine in Brawl. This means that we can safely add another column to make 10. That gives us room for five more... Note that at this point, I'm filling the roster with Brawl vets.

That leaves one space left, so let's throw Mewtwo in. I'll also take some time to rearrange the roster alignment to make more sense.

49 characters so far, in line with most guesses. Keep in mind that we've only added one row. But it's logical that we could get two rows added, as well. So we'll add another row, giving us five more characters. Let's do some Melee vets, shall we?

So everyone from the Smash series is in this one, but there's room for one more. There is someone missing, so please excuse me while I get him in.

So now we're at 54 characters. Pretty impressive. But this is only with two rows added. History has shown that we can have added up to three rows per installment. So we can add a third row, to bring us to... 59 characters. See, math. Keep in mind that this is maxing out the pattern, but it wouldn't be out of the question. That gives us room for five newcomers. For those who believe Sal, three of those are Chrom, Shulk, and Chorus Men. Two spaces left... Ridley and K. Rool, anyone?

To me, a roster like this is not unreasonable. All vets from Brawl return, the Melee 5 return, and we get 15 newcomers (including Pokemon Trainer being revamped). Anything higher than this without DLC is pushing it. In general, a roster size between 49-59 is most likely.
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And that concludes my roster estimation. Please let me know your thoughts and comments or any questions you have.

 

[RhymesWithEmpty]

...Well, I will say the fact that you've managed to come up with an argument for a 59 character roster that somehow manages to add fewer newcomers I'm interested in than most of the 51 character rosters in this thread is... an accomplishment in and of itself, I guess?

Also, you're bringing back Squirtle, Ivysaur, AND the Pokemon Trainer as a separate character? That's... I mean, really, just... I don't even know. That's somehow even more flabbergasting than bringing back a bunch of old clones nobody cares about anymore. In a way, I applaud you. Thankfully, however, I can't see this ever coming to fruition.

In the spirit of fairness, here are my own dream 52 slot rosters for people to pick apart. This is operating under the fantasy that Miis get their own special CSS option, thus allowing me to cram an extra character in there The top one follows the Gematsu leak, the bottom one ignores it. Ah, if only...

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

No offense to anyone here, but where are you guys getting your numbers? 47 and 51? Neither of these numbers make any mathematical sense! You guys need to double check your work.

My calculations give us a roster between 49-59 characters. I believe 59 is the most likely, but I'll let you guys see my "math proof" of sorts that I posted in another topic. You guys be the judge...

I understand what you're doing, however, there is no reason for characters like Roy, Pichu, Young Link, Dr. Mario, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Pkmn Trainer return(PT has already been deconfirmed), which would make an absurd number of newcomers and if we cut those 7 from your roster, we get 52, which IS a reasonable number

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

No offense to anyone here, but where are you guys getting your numbers? 47 and 51? Neither of these numbers make any mathematical sense! You guys need to double check your work.

My calculations give us a roster between 49-59 characters. I believe 59 is the most likely, but I'll let you guys see my "math proof" of sorts that I posted in another topic. You guys be the judge...

I really doubt



Are going to survive, exclude these guys theres your most likely roster

(Well excluding dlc ofcoarse if that is true.)

 

[Jumpman84]

...Well, I will say the fact that you've managed to come up with an argument for a 59 character roster that somehow manages to add fewer newcomers I'm interested in than most of the 51 character rosters in this thread is... an accomplishment in and of itself, I guess?

Also, you're bringing back Squirtle, Ivysaur, AND the Pokemon Trainer as a separate character? That's... I mean, really, just... I don't even know. That's somehow even more flabbergasting than bringing back a bunch of old clones nobody cares about anymore. In a way, I applaud you. Thankfully, however, I can't see this ever coming to fruition.

In the spirit of fairness, here are my own dream 52 slot rosters for people to pick apart. This is operating under the fantasy that Miis get their own special CSS option, thus allowing me to cram an extra character in there The top one follows the Gematsu leak, the bottom one ignores it. Ah, if only...

Spoiler

While it is true that it would be a roster that I'd be very happy with, I was only using it as an example for how a 59 character roster is reasonable without having an excessive amount of newcomers. I did note that the math gave a possibility of a 49 character roster, as well. That had room for all the confirmed characters, remaining Brawl vets, and Mewtwo. If you think certain characters will be cut, you can replace them with newcomers of your choosing (or Gematsu's). Also, while I have yet to find the source of the info that Mii Fighters aren't part of the CSS and have their own slot, that would also leave it open for one more newcomer.

FYI, I care about those "old clones" as they are a part of the Smash series just like every other character. Same goes for Squirtle and Ivysaur, whom both have a unique moveset. Also, Red was a popular character from the days of Brawl speculation prior to the Pokémon Trainer's reveal. They had some creative movesets for him using items from the games (no one had expected the switching mechanic that we received in Brawl). A solo Pokémon Trainer would be a feasible character, though he would count as a newcomer due to his revamped moveset.

I do like your roster and I'd be happy if that was the final one (though I'd be sad about the cut Brawl vets and Melee vets).

I understand what you're doing, however, there is no reason for characters like Roy, Pichu, Young Link, Dr. Mario, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Pkmn Trainer return(PT has already been deconfirmed), which would make an absurd number of newcomers and if we cut those 7 from your roster, we get 52, which IS a reasonable number

First, Pokémon Trainer himself has not been deconfirmed. His mechanics have been and it is a likely conclusion, but we won't know for sure whether he is cut until we get official word or when the game comes out.

Second, Roy, Pichu, Young Link, Dr. Mario, Squirtle, and Ivysaur are NOT newcomers. They are veterans. Only PT would be counted as a newcomer, so I fail to see how this is an absurd amount of newcomers. The cuts you mentioned to bring it down to 52 only reduce the number of newcomers by ONE. So you believe 15 is absurd while 14 is reasonable?

Third, the math disproves 52 as a roster number (unless there are blank spots in the CSS). The most likely outcomes are 49, 54, and 59.

Fourth, all the characters you mentioned are veterans of Smash. That's more than enough reason for them to return. Whether they will or not is up to debate (lousy time constraints ).

I really doubt



Are going to survive, exclude these guys theres your most likely roster

(Well excluding dlc ofcoarse if that is true.)

I think they will be up there, but I agree that if they don't make the initial roster, they are great candidates for DLC. Snake is iffy, since the licensing thing, but maybe they could hype up a "Metal Gear Smash" DLC pack that comes with Snake, two Assist Trophies (Gray Fox being one of them), two stages (a new one and Shadow Moses from Brawl), music and trophies from the series, and all those awesome codecs.