ZSS and the Importance of Degeneration

[FadedImage]

After looking around at all the ZSS posts, I've noticed a large topic going completely undiscussed, which is the the damage degeneration issue. (if you don't know what I'm talking about, read more here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141977 ) So something we all need to keep in mind is how we can use degenerating.

First off, some things to stay away from:
In some of the videos I've seen, people throw out the KO-whip (side-b) as if ZSS is a Dominatrix or something. That toy is best meant for later. To be more literal: I always save my whip for >100% situations, you never want to reduce the knockback on your main KO move. This goes with the bair too, it's horrible for combos, so save it for the KOs!!

Now, onto the dos:
Alright, so ZSS's game is highly dependant on her ability to juggle, I think we can all agree on that. The insane amount of combinations between the uair, up-b, usmash, and utilt create a plethora of pillar-y, juggle-y goodness. But how can we exploit this? SPAM HARDER. I know, this sounds like the worst tactical discussion ever, but think about it. For every uair you do, you significantly lower the distance of which you will knockback a target, up to 8 hits. And if the knockback is reduced, that's less range for DI. Less DI means more hits, and more hits means more degeneration... and so on and so on.
Seriously, try it out. Instead of breaking the juggle with a bair or fair that won't KO, opt for the uair again, even if you know you won't get in another uair after it. You'll force them to come down on you, which is heavenly for ZSS's arsenal of u-attacks, and you'll lower the knockback on your best juggling move.

In short, keep in mind the two types of attacks you'll be using: The KOs and the Combos. Save the KOs for over 100%, and purposely degenerate those combo attacks for delicious juggling goodness.

Questions/Comments/Flames welcome.

 

[heypancho]

I agree in saving KO moves.. but when I play I sort of just forget to. I think the main thing would be to use all her moves and learn what moves work in each situation. You'll reset your knockback and damage and you'll be less predictable anyway. Though, you do make a good point about the combos. Shiek benefits from reduced knockback with some of her tilts I think and it can keep an opponent in her range.. which is what you got at. And.. I both juggle and kill with uair... to save or not to save O_O!

 

[ph00tbag]

It's fine if you want to save up the Plasma Whip. But note that you've still got bair and Flip Jump for your kill moves. Plus, if you're using Plasma Whip to space, it may only hit once or twice, whereas when you're in combo mode, more of your uairs will certainly hit, thus reducing uair knockback, and inducing Plasma Whip knockback to go back up. If you mix Plasma Whip up with Paralyzer, it's a very effective spacing move, because people are afraid of it.

 

[.kR0]

If you feel that the >B and bair isn't poweful enough aroun K.O. range, just use blasters/tilts to bring back the knockback rate.

I never want to limit ZSS's spacing game ever. She needs >B for spacing at any percent.

 

[k4polo]

yea it is kinda the same with Marth and not spamming his FAir and forwards smash as much. It is the same with alot of characters.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I've thought of how the degen affects pillaring. Basically, the degeneration list only keeps the past 9 moves that you use in it's queue. It may not seem like all that much, but when you are constantly hitting with your Forward-B it'll reduce its damage and knockback quite a bit. Anyways, I agree with most of you that it's a great move for spacing, but lately I've come to find that people tend to expect you to use your Forward-B as a spacing tactic, and depending on who you're playing against, it can be bothersome for YOU to try and pull it out. For example, a decent Wolf player will know to spam their blaster exclusively because there's no hitbox on the shots and you won't be able to dodge them with the slight lag on your Forward-B. Because of problems like this, I've come to rely a lot more on grabs and d-tilts to chuck my opponents in the air and then proceed to pillar them, and bring out the whip later in the game when they're starting to get uneasy about getting KO'd and are more likely to screw up some dodging.

Now that I've gotten decently sidetracked, it's still plenty effective to use your Forward-B to space. Personally I've started working on my short-hop B-air for KO's because by the time it's pulled out, you've already landed and can start a new move if you miss.

Back to degen, I spam my U-smash a lot on platform levels, and I guess that I don't actually notice much of a knockback reduction, probably because I usually throw in a few moves in between. The only time that I would say I notice it is after doing a dashing U-smash, because if you hit your opponent with the side of the move, depending on how much knockback there is on it, they'll either fly too far away or sort of just fall into the rest of it.

Honestly though, I don't notice the degen all that much since most of the time I try to mix all of ZSS's moves in to make my game less predictable.

 

[FadedImage]

So a lot of discussion here has been about saving your moves, which is the part everyone already knows about. What the boards have been rather absent of is the potential to -purposely- degenerate the uair.

Try it out: go to training mode (where degeneration does not occur) and try to juggle a CPU without resetting it's damage % and using only the uair. Take notice of how high they go after each hit, how far you have to chase, etc. Then: go to normal brawl (where degeneration does occur) and do the same thing, spam nothing but the uair. Take notice of how as their % increases with your hits, so too the knockback lowers, creating a sort of regulated distance.

in short: purposely degenerating your uairs leads to easier juggling, which is the best way ZSS can rack up damage.




Separate point:

When it comes to saving the whip, I see a lot of people saying, "oh just refresh it with tilts/gun/random attacks". The problem with this is that once you've used the whip, you'll need to perform 8 attacks in order to restore its full KO potential. Let's say you do an average of ~6% with each of those 8 attacks, this means you'll have racked up an extra ~48% by the time you're ready to use the whip again, and by that time, you won't even need it to be full KO power, because you just added so much % on them anyways. So if you plan to space and connect with the whip, either do it early while they are at low % and then hold off until they are in KO range, or just try to KO with the bair. Trying to "refresh" the whip at higher %s is just useless.

 

[James Sparrow]

This is interesting, I guess I haven't thought of the whole intentional degeneration thing. Makes a lot of sense though.

 

[.kR0]

If >B isn't killing at 110% then you have couple of options

-You have dsmash->dsmash->forward Smash (kills at around 150%) which is great since if the opponent is at 110%, the dsmashes will bring it to like 128ish range
-bair
-downB
-upair

or you can always edgeguard via bair/nair/fair/upair once they're off the stage.

I wouldn't compromise the usefulness of her >B at low percents, I would always use it if I know I can hit them with it or I know that I want to keep the pressure on the opponent. it's just a great move that shouldn't be limited to just kill opponents.

 

[ph00tbag]

The problem with this is that once you've used the whip, you'll need to perform 8 attacks in order to restore its full KO potential. Let's say you do an average of ~6% with each of those 8 attacks, this means you'll have racked up an extra ~48% by the time you're ready to use the whip again, and by that time, you won't even need it to be full KO power, because you just added so much % on them anyways.

How is this a problem? In fact, it means you might only need to combo them to 29%, with 4 moves, then hit them with the whip. Even more convenient, neh?