Zelda's Learning Curve

[Heero Yuy]

I posted this the other day:

"I always felt Zelda's learning curve was rather low compared to most other characters, mainly due to the fact that her Dins make up more than half of her overall metagame - including combos and camping. She's a rather easy character to pick up but you'd have to truly unlock her in order to place very well in tourneys."

When I first picked up Zelda she was initially very easy to use, due to the fact Din's Fires made her neutral game easy and straightforward. However, as I haven't fully mastered her yet I'm still curious to know what every other Zelda main thinks.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I posted this the other day:

"I always felt Zelda's learning curve was rather low compared to most other characters, mainly due to the fact that her Dins make up more than half of her overall metagame - including combos and camping. She's a rather easy character to pick up but you'd have to truly unlock her in order to place very well in tourneys."

When I first picked up Zelda she was initially very easy to use, due to the fact Din's Fires made her neutral game easy and straightforward. However, as I haven't fully mastered her yet I'm still curious to know what every other Zelda main thinks.

I mostly consider her to have two halves, her defensive side, which consists of Shffl retreating bairs, but is mostly based around getting the opponent to follow you into side b traps. Once in, you punish them with a grab, into side b detonating.
Then there is her offensive side; (My favorite of the two) which consists of her teledash into techchases and comboes, and NEVER letting the opponent breath.

All and all I would have to say that you're right. She was my first character in PM, and will always be my main.

Paladin

 

[Garde Noir]

While I initially agree with @ DarkStarStorm , I have to say with some thought that I want to add addendums to that thought. Zelda has a juggling side, with Up-smashes and aerials, comboed with Side-B, that is offensive, while using the defensive tactics, a patient side-- not unlike spacies using their lasers-- with Din's fire, guerilla tactics, and effective retreating Fae-Wind, that is similar to defensive, but with spouts of offensive, and she has a "snake-style" that is ALL about mindgames, forcing the opponent into Din's fires, and Spin-reflect, while taking hits as long as they balance out with opponent death. I see this last set a lot from @XzAx

But all of this is ignoring Sheilda, which is a beast in her own right, and (in my opinion) deserves a thread of her own. Adding on the many talents of Sheik, with her offensive and defensive games, along with the mindgame of switching up on opponents, Zelda is given a whole horde of new options, and can flourish in any matchup.

But regarding the original post. I think Zelda is a lot like Kirby is the original Smash 64. Anyone can pick up Kirby and be good with him, but there's a plateau, of being character good, or using the character as a tool, and being great. Zelda has a strange learning curve, because she's easy to be pretty good at right out of the box, but she can be simply amazing with practice.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

While I initially agree with @ DarkStarStorm , I have to say with some thought that I want to add addendums to that thought. Zelda has a juggling side, with Up-smashes and aerials, comboed with Side-B, that is offensive, while using the defensive tactics, a patient side-- not unlike spacies using their lasers-- with Din's fire, guerilla tactics, and effective retreating Fae-Wind, that is similar to defensive, but with spouts of offensive, and she has a "snake-style" that is ALL about mindgames, forcing the opponent into Din's fires, and Spin-reflect, while taking hits as long as they balance out with opponent death. I see this last set a lot from @XzAx

But all of this is ignoring Sheilda, which is a beast in her own right, and (in my opinion) deserves a thread of her own. Adding on the many talents of Sheik, with her offensive and defensive games, along with the mindgame of switching up on opponents, Zelda is given a whole horde of new options, and can flourish in any matchup.

But regarding the original post. I think Zelda is a lot like Kirby is the original Smash 64. Anyone can pick up Kirby and be good with him, but there's a plateau, of being character good, or using the character as a tool, and being great. Zelda has a strange learning curve, because she's easy to be pretty good at right out of the box, but she can be simply amazing with practice.

Her defensive side has two advanced Nayru techniques: the Love Jump and Diamond Diving. Just thought I should add that. I agree, there should be a thread dedicated to Sheilda. I made that post a few months ago, and man I was a newb then!

 

[Garde Noir]

Her defensive side has two advanced Nayru techniques: the Love Jump and Diamond Diving. Just thought I should add that. I agree, there should be a thread dedicated to Sheilda. I made that post a few months ago, and man I was a newb then!

I disagree, you had some good insight. In the beginning, it seems that Zelda has 2 sides, just like it seems that someone like Falcon has 1, but the more you get into it, the more you see

 

[Garde Noir]

I'm sure you know much more than that now, and to the point that I need to learn some things.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm sure you know much more than that now, and to the point that I need to learn some things.

I NEED to work on traps, and know what configurations work. Actually I don't need to know how to use them, anyone can learn that. I need to know WHY to use them. What motivations one needs to have to place them where they will. What Zelda needs to cover (don't quote me on that) in order to veil her weaknesses. I need to mesh her steel (dins) with her ghost (normals) with her psychic-type (teledashing) moves together to make her immune to all but Ivy, Falco, Marth, and Roy.

 

[Justbngoode]

Her defensive side has two advanced Nayru techniques: the Love Jump and Diamond Diving.

What is this and how do i do it.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

What is this and how do i do it.

Basically what it is is this: I discovered a technique where if you are sent at around a 45 degree angle from point A, you perform the b reversal at the same time you would normally Love Jump (point B, and you do NOT jump). You will continue your launch speed and angle of trajectory, in reverse, heading back to point A from point B (not quite that sharp but still at a sharp angle) at the same speed at which you left it, invulnerable because of Nayru. With the right percentage you can land-cancel the Diamond Dive. Now I discovered this back in 2.5b or 2.6, but it still works in 3.0. You just do a normal b-reversal, and the timing is a tad later than that of the Love Jump.

 

[Downdraft]

Basically what it is is this: I discovered a technique where if you are sent at around a 45 degree angle from point A, you perform the b reversal at the same time you would normally Love Jump (point B, and you do NOT jump). You will continue your launch speed and angle of trajectory, in reverse, heading back to point A from point B (not quite that sharp but still at a sharp angle) at the same speed at which you left it, invulnerable because of Nayru. With the right percentage you can land-cancel the Diamond Dive. Now I discovered this back in 2.5b or 2.6, but it still works in 3.0. You just do a normal b-reversal, and the timing is a tad later than that of the Love Jump.

How would you practice this technique in training? I don't think I've ever seen it used in videos or in person.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

How would you practice this technique in training? I don't think I've ever seen it used in videos or in person.

You could try going into training mode and then set the cpu to allow you to control it. Experiment by adjusting Zelda's damage percent with the options and then using the cpu controller hit her with a character's forward Smash (donkey kong, falco, etc.) Then quickly switch to the Zelda controller and try it out. You might want to try it on the training stage as that has lots of room.
If you can't make the change of controllers fast enough, you could do it in versus and just pause the game after you inputted the forward smash. Put it on a high time instead of stocks. You can just attack Zelda with whatever other character you choose to get the approximate damage on her you want to experiment with. You may also be able to set a damage percent you want to experiment with before the match.
Training with a partner who can input the forward smashes for you would probably be the most ideal option. Hope that helps!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

How would you practice this technique in training? I don't think I've ever seen it used in videos or in person.

The reason is because I discovered it and the only reason that anyone else knows about it is cause I told them. I'm able to get it to go at a 45 degree angle, and I used it against a Wolf/Roy/Ganon @ShadowGanon yesterday, and it works extremely well for anti-juggling.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

The reason is because I discovered it and the only reason that anyone else knows about it is cause I told them. I'm able to get it to go at a 45 degree angle, and I used it against a Wolf/Roy/Ganon @ShadowGanon yesterday, and it works extremely well for anti-juggling.

Yeah but it depends on the angle. If the opponent is coming at you from below it usually doesn't work.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Yeah but it depends on the angle. If the opponent is coming at you from below it usually doesn't work.

Right the angle of knockback HAS to be around 45. I've actually found that if you move away from the point of knockback after entering the tumble animation, you can get an angle BETTER than that of the average 45. This is literally the best anti-juggling technique that Zelda has, in my opinion.

 

[Downdraft]

You could try going into training mode and then set the cpu to allow you to control it. Experiment by adjusting Zelda's damage percent with the options and then using the cpu controller hit her with a character's forward Smash (donkey kong, falco, etc.) Then quickly switch to the Zelda controller and try it out. You might want to try it on the training stage as that has lots of room.
If you can't make the change of controllers fast enough, you could do it in versus and just pause the game after you inputted the forward smash. Put it on a high time instead of stocks. You can just attack Zelda with whatever other character you choose to get the approximate damage on her you want to experiment with. You may also be able to set a damage percent you want to experiment with before the match.
Training with a partner who can input the forward smashes for you would probably be the most ideal option. Hope that helps!

I'd like to surprise my Smash buddies with the technique, so I don't want to practice it with them.
I'll attempt the first two methods you mentioned. Thanks.

Right the angle of knockback HAS to be around 45. I've actually found that if you move away from the point of knockback after entering the tumble animation, you can get an angle BETTER than that of the average 45. This is literally the best anti-juggling technique that Zelda has, in my opinion.

Thanks for the info; I'll play around with it and Love Jumping when I return to school.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5CNsBBPnhEI