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Zelda's grab game query

You want a detailed grab game guide?


  • Total voters
    9

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
I am considering posting a grab guide for zelda covering her grab options, which ones to use under which scenarios, & how to follow up with each grab option depending on the character & the % their at. I'll also include what I feel are the best DI options for dealing with her grabs, but it'll be more general. However, I'd prefer not to post this unless it'd get a decent amount of traction. So, if I get at least 5 requests, I'll post the guide in a new thread. I don't mind if too few are interested & you can pm me if you wanna talk off-thread about it.

If there's been a 3.5/3.6 guide for zelda's grab game, then this might be for not & please gimmie a link.

Btw, I plan on posting some esoteric practicing techniques for various moves & combos in the future. How far in the future I cannot say.
 

Downdraft

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
556
Location
Huntsville, AL
I feel like your idea would be a great topic to revive the Triforce of Wisdom thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/trif...nity-effort-this-week-positions.347647/unread
I don't know how you planned to discuss which throws to use on which characters, but I'd recommend picking a few regions off this weight/falling speed chart to save time. The chart is from 3.5. In 3.6, MK weighs 79. ROB and Yoshi received slight weight nerfs, but not enough to seriously affect throw preferences.
http://prntscr.com/77j3s6
 
Last edited:

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I actively do not want such a guide, as I think new players already have enough issues with breaking out of flowchart habits. Do what you want, of course, but I advise you to at least but huge disclaimers on the guide that it isn't meta-defining or complete.
 

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
Hah, so far I have 3 yays and 2 nays with comments from each!

@ Downdraft Downdraft I'll consider that.

@ 4tlas 4tlas I fully admit I possess a lack of clout here due to my lack of experience relative to y'all. Having said that, I want to put out quality work if I am to go through with it & to do so I would really like you to expand on what you mean by a flowchart habit as well as your thoughts on what components would make a complete guide (I know the ladder can be quite daunting to explain but I kindly request you humor me). My guess on the former is to not think so much in a linear progression on how to go from neutral to kill.

Finally, I doubt my guide would be meta-defining. However, I'm confident over time, through other individual's inputs, the guide could be quite effective. Ground-breaking isn't my style and I prefer to conjure unique practicing techniques more than redefine a character.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
@ 4tlas 4tlas I fully admit I possess a lack of clout here due to my lack of experience relative to y'all. Having said that, I want to put out quality work if I am to go through with it & to do so I would really like you to expand on what you mean by a flowchart habit as well as your thoughts on what components would make a complete guide (I know the ladder can be quite daunting to explain but I kindly request you humor me). My guess on the former is to not think so much in a linear progression on how to go from neutral to kill.

Finally, I doubt my guide would be meta-defining. However, I'm confident over time, through other individual's inputs, the guide could be quite effective. Ground-breaking isn't my style and I prefer to conjure unique practicing techniques more than redefine a character.
I don't think lack of experience relative to other players is the issue, and if I thought it were I would simply propose we create a community guide. What I am suggesting is that nobody truly knows all of the options, and thus obviously nobody knows what the optimal options are. I already know many players that tell me explicitly how to play Zelda and they are only wrong because they assume they know everything already and thus have never explored beyond what they read somewhere. Just the other day someone told me that I used some options they had never even seen before and started asking me what was guaranteed and why I made the choices I did, and this was on 3.6b SHEIK, a character with a "developed meta" from Melee.

An example of this flowchart habit I am describing would be to always dthrow with 3.6b Sheik. Techchases are great, but there exist scenarios when a different throw is better. Now those are easy to include in a guide, such as bthrow or fthrow if it would put them offstage, but nobody knows when to upthrow. If you don't include it in your guide or at least point out that upthrow is unknown and the guide is incomplete, nobody will learn that there is an odd percent range on every character where Sheik's upthrow doesn't send them out of followup range but has enough hitstun to get followups which are almost always fair kills because they DI'd for dthrow.

For Zelda this would probably be to only upthrow vs fastfallers, but Zelda's upthrow actually provides a different set of options than her other throws. This means that you have to make a choice about what you want that isn't as simple as fthrow to catch them off guard, dthrow for damage, bthrow for kill, upthrow to chaingrab. If you don't include somewhere that you might have missed something, players reading your guide will never improve past your guide's level until they happen upon a more advanced one.

If you include that the guide is not complete and that there are undoubtedly options left to explore at the reader's discretion, then I see only marginal downsides to this project which do not outweigh the benefits of having a guide available. If you would like further input on the content of the guide I will be happy to contribute.
 

BlueLettuce

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
15
Location
Canada
As someone who is relatively new to the PM scene and smash in general, I can say that (successfully) breaking into the competitive scene is pretty difficult. With no starting point you are forced to play by reaction for the most part. Sure you can understand that WDing back can help you avoid an aerial, but what are the best character specific options once they have landed in front of you? A newer player may opt for forward smash. A strong hit, but does not lead to follow ups. A more experienced player may L-kick, f-tilt or grab because they know some of the options available from those moves or that a LK is faster and less likely to be shielded in time.

I don't think lack of experience relative to other players is the issue, and if I thought it were I would simply propose we create a community guide. What I am suggesting is that nobody truly knows all of the options, and thus obviously nobody knows what the optimal options are. I already know many players that tell me explicitly how to play Zelda and they are only wrong because they assume they know everything already and thus have never explored beyond what they read somewhere. Just the other day someone told me that I used some options they had never even seen before and started asking me what was guaranteed and why I made the choices I did, and this was on 3.6b SHEIK, a character with a "developed meta" from Melee.
As stated above no one truly knows every option for their characters, but I see this more as a 'starting point'. It will give inexperienced players an idea of options available to them when trying to learn a new character.

Another thing you could potentially do is mention it will be regularly updated (if it is something you are willing to do). This will help drive the point home that it is incomplete and may also prompt people to try and figure out new options for the character.
 

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
I don't wanna write too much so I'll try being concise in responding to the previous 2 comments.

@ 4tlas 4tlas Thank you very much for your feedback. We have different definitions on "flowchart habits", so that's why I wanted your clarification. I most certainly enjoy the idea of others contributing their info & updating the guide for when each new version comes out, so your input would be much appreciated. What I'm trying to say is I'll open it to a community effort, but will only periodically update the main guide.

@ BlueLettuce BlueLettuce Ideally, I'd like the guide to be usable by both beginning and intermediate-advanced players. My basic idea is to divide the guide into 3 main parts, 1) How to get the grab 2) Choosing which throw to use and 3) How to follow up from said grab. Categories would be subdivided by character weight (w/ fast fallers having their own category), and percentage. There's no way I can cover every possible option from all 3 categories (though I will try & add as many as I can, that's where I believe the community effort will be best utilized), but the main goal for me is to provide general guidelines for each category with an emphasis on how to practice those techniques aside from just rote.

Like I've said in this post, I vow to disclaim that it's not complete, I'm aware it's not complete, & anyone's input would be immensely appreciated.
 
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